Gretchen Whitmer responds to calls by some Democrats to vote ‘uncommitted’ in Michigan’s primary on Tuesday
Gretchen Whitmer responds to calls by some Democrats to vote ‘uncommitted’ in Michigan’s primary on Tuesday
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
“It’s important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote that’s not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,” she said on Sunday during an interview on CNN’s State of the Union. “A second Trump term would be devastating. Not just on fundamental rights, not just on our democracy here at home, but also when it comes to foreign policy. This was a man who promoted a Muslim ban.”
Whitmer, who is a co-chair of Biden’s 2024 campaign, also said she wasn’t sure what to expect when it came to the protest vote.
Rashida Tlaib, a Democrat who is the only Palestinian-American serving in Congress, urged Democrats last week to vote “uncommitted” in Michigan’s 27 February primary.
This is literally the only point in time we can try to drag Biden too the left, will we get him far enough that he stops being pro-genocide? Probably not, dude is all in on Israel and always has been.
But telling people they don't even get to vote "not committed" in a fucking meaningless primary is something so undemocratic if you told me it would happen this primary I'd have bet millions on it being republicans.
But then again, I'd have bet billions on them being the ones to pull delegates for something the state party had zero control over.
Not holding Dems to standards may have already fucked the country for good.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
NH went progressive over party favorite moderate the last two primaries they had that counted...
So this party the DNC said their votes count for nothing, then Biden withdrew and threw money at a write in campaign so the headlines would be "Biden wins even as a write in!"
And not:
"DNC just made NH primary meaningless for something only NH republican officials could change!"
They know this is just a primary.
They're just conservatives deep down and give zero fucks lying and destroying democracy if they win. And it's not enough to win, they demand 100% loyalty.
Just like trumpers.
It's why Dem standards can't just be "better than a Republican".
The problem is Progressives aren’t offering up any other option. Who am I supposed to vote FOR this time around? “No one” isn’t much of a rallying cry.
Is someone telling you you don't "get" to vote how you want? Telling someone you disagree with their choice or that they're dumb for voting a certain way is not at all stopping that person from voting how they want and not at all undemocratic
I think part of the problem is that people are so on edge with how close we are to democracy ending. And how fine, and even eager many are to move on to full fascism. It is a primary though. And what really matters is a commitment to defeat fascism in November.
However you don't do yourself any favors acting like a teenage edge lord. Saying hyperbolic bs like pro-genocide etc etc etc. Biden's actions on the front are absolutely questionable. Poor strategy wise considering Bibi isn't going to listen to anyone. And just going to do whatever he wants. So all Biden is likely going to get out of it is a tarnished image. Even if we cut Israel off completely, something Biden can't do himself. It wouldn't stop Bibi the butcher. But then it's always easier to call hyperbolic names than it is to come up with actual working solutions.
There are also a large amount of people who understand this and are intentionally acting as if they don't. This is just this round's version of the 'walk away' people from previous elections.
He's good friends with and likely has donations from Netanyahu. And all Trump and the GOP have to do (as usual) is sit back and watch the left fight and destroy itself while the gop sit back and win.
Democrats are so damn stupid. Not a single one of your candidates and potential presidents is against Israel, none, so why make it an issue for this election?
Not just a second Trump term, but a second Trump term and continuation/acceleration of the genocide in Gaza. Not voting and letting Trump win with a razor thin margin in a swing state will not fix the problem. Between the two realistic choices, Biden is infinitely more likely to push Israel for a ceasefire, which is the best chance anybody has to get the situation under control.
It's a primary. If Democratic leadership has moved on from telling people that they have to get behind the nominee in the general election, to now telling people that that can't even vote against the candidate the elites have selected in a primary, they are effectively working for Trump, and tanking the election.
My comment was really more about the general election. The primary is a foregone conclusion. Joe Biden will be the Democratic party nominee. Donald Trump, barring any significant action from the SCOTUS, will be the Republican party nominee. You can vote for whoever you want in a primary. I know I voted for Bernie Sanders in the 2020 primary election, and then I voted for Biden in the general.
I hate how obvious this wedge is being driven mostly by the right, and people can't see it. It's not going to stop after the Primary, unfortunately. That's why we have to fight the narrative now while there's still time.
You can't blame Trump for the Gaza Genocide but you cannot claim that Trump will make any positive difference there vs Biden. And Trump WILL make destructive changes to the environment, women's rights, minority rights, trans rights, global warming, existence of democracy and establish a more fascist state.
So yeah, I guess one outcome is indistinguishable from the other
It can absolutely be put on Trump. October 7 was a response to the Abraham Accords that were championed by Trump. Those accords would put Saudi Arabia in charge of Palestinian security, which was not acceptable to Palestinians in general, or especially Hamas.
Something that isn't being talked about is the added risk because of the tensions with Iran from Trump pulling out of the nuclear deal. A lot of the unpopular moves the Biden administration has made are a direct result of that. From the start, America's top priority in all this has been to keep Iran from getting involved because that would likely be WW3.
You can say that all you want, but currently RIGHT NOW a democrat is furthering and furthering the genocide and murder of Palestinians. Trump IS NOT DOING THIS. Maybe he will, probably. BUT I KNOW FOR A GOD DAMNED FACT BIDEN DOESNT CARE.
Quit telling me I’m letting democracy die while we have a democrat doing conservative politics in the whitehouse.
You’re letting democracy die by capitulating to the two party system that doesn’t represent you.
Honestly, this is the reaction of a child. "I don't agree with the system so I'm going to take my toys and go home, who cares who it hurts, even if it hurts me."
So you're voting for a guy who literally said to be a dictator? A guy who as some 90something criminals indictments, and has been convicted in too many fraud cases to count, who currently owes half a billion dollars in fines? Awesome Choice
If you've ever complained about a CEO seeking to boost profits to benefit themselves and not care about the long term repercussions of their actions. This is you. You're doing it now. The GOP is seeking to remove democracy. They are allowing / endorsing it at CPAC. Republicans support Israel more than Democrats. A Trump term equals never having the ability to vote again + More support for Israel doing what it's doing, and likely having the US join in. They've been begging to invade Iran for decades. Global politics is messy. If you act like it's clean you're just going to get steamrolled.
I don't like our current system but I don't believe she is wrong. We have a two party system. Either the GOP or the DNC candidate will take the electoral college.
I hate that we are still voting against something. The Democrats need to run a candidate that we WANT to vote for (like Obama was imo) but we aren't there in this election so we can either protest and vote 3rd party, vote for Trump, or vote for Biden.
Agreed. But I would also point out that the left fails by failing to get out their vote which is what happens when they have a candidate they don't like (cf Hillary) and supporting Genocide is not a way to win left votes. A Trump win is worse. What a shit sandwich
Democratic leadership telling people who are upset with their chosen candidate that they can't even vote against him in the primary is a direct attack on democracy, and absolutely the best way for them to get Trump elected.
What they're hoping it will do is show the party and Biden that his actions don't follow the value of Dem voters.
The goal is for him to shape up so he doesn't depress turnout and let's trump wins like when he ran against Hillary.
Ignoring the problem and letting the media keep calling Biden "most progressive president yet" will disenfranchise Dems and hurt turnout.
Dem voters aren't Republican voters. Fear isn't enough to motivate them, it works on conservatives because they're statistically likely to have a larger amygdala. Liberals (actual liberals) are more likely to have increased frontal lobe activity that handles empathy and critical thinking.
The main problem is neoliberals are essentially conservatives. They may vote D, but they think like Rs. And without that critical thinking and empathy, they assume everyone else is like them. Like Republicans do.
The result is actual liberals look at both parties, and realize it's not a good thing the same type of people are now running the only two options. Especially when the donations are coming from the same place.
AIPAC for example. They're funding Biden and Republicans who say Trump won, while attacking Dem incumbents who are against genocide.
Because all AIPAC cares about us Israel. They dont give two shits about Biden or America.
And as we've seen with his decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem, his position is even more extreme. Everyone who has paid any attention to his position on such matter should be able to figure out what his response to the current conflict would be. He for sure wouldn't even try to reign Netanyahu in but actively encourage further brutalities. That's exactly the "strong man" bullshit Trump adores.
So even if you really dislike Biden's handling of this whole shit show, you better believe that Trump would be even worse. And that's just the foreign politics part of the Middle East, we all know what harm Trump wants to cause to the US itself.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem was bad because it basically spit in the face of Palestinians - but we are literally supplying bombs that are killing Palestinians right now.
One's a spit in the face. The other is a 2,000lb warhead in the face.
Would Trump have done the same? Probably. But we know for a fact Biden did what he did.
No. It's not on the voters to show up no matter what. It's on the politicians to be someone we want to vote for. We already did "vote blue no matter who and pressure them for change later." And now we're funding a genocide. That's over. Now it's pressure time.
Thanks to the political-parties highjacking governing-the-country,
they can commit any crime or abomination, whatsoever, and you only can choose between them, because the rigged-system won't permit anyone to have any alternative to what the incumbent political-parties offer.
Zionism can be equated to fascism. Biden has stated multiple times that he is a Zionist. Neo-liberal fascists are already in power and they are destroying the left.
you are saying do your duty at the ballot by saying vote this way or you are wasting a vote (that doesn't actually count anyway because the pop vote doesn't decide the presidency). I will do my duty by not partaking in sham elections for a two party state that I don't have any faith in whatsoever to deliver anything they promise. Because they have no obligation to fulfill anything they say they will do to get into office. That in itself is protest so I am doing the real changes, as you say.
You'll just be forfeiting your vote. The same reasoning can be heard in any country come election time, but in truth you're only making a gesture and its effects are contained in your mind. If you don't vote, even though all you said is true, this election system is a sham, etc. you're still helping Trump in the short term and the harm he will do to women, foreigners, anybody who's not rich, and the american society at large. Gestures, symbols and statements are good, but not at this price. I live across the world but if I could vote in the american elections, I would, and I'm not even part of any of these endangered demographics. I suppose you aren't either ?
I mean she's right. If you register a protest vote against Biden you need to accept the moral liability of helping Trump. There really isn't any additional conversation here. You can write a million words about how you are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and none of it will change the very simple cause and effect of a protest vote.
Every time people are saying they will vote third party in the general, I argue that it's important to vote for the best viable candidate, and the time to vote against a Democrat they don't like is in the primaries. When people start saying no, you can't even vote against the party leadership's chosen candidate in a primary, what do you think they're going to do? BS antidemocratic rhetoric like that is exactly what is most likely to get us another Trump presidency. We start down that road and we can kiss democracy goodbye for good.
Anyone still spouting "the DNC picked Hillary/Biden" removes the agency of millions of voters who voted for Hillary/Biden in favor of their own preferences and perceived enlightenment. Honestly at this point it's legitimately just right wing trolls who are still harping on this as far as I can tell.
If we can't even support the candidate of our choice in a fucking primary then democracy is actually dead. Shaming voters in the general is one thing, but doing so in a primary is dickish to the extreme. It's attitudes like this that will actually help Trump. Who the fuck wants to get in line for a party that doesn't give a rat's ass what you think?
This is in the primary. Voting uncommitted isn't going to hurt Biden's chance on the general. For that reason, this is one where I support a protest vote as it does nothing to the general in of by itself. If the youth and Muslims actually voted uncommitted, that'd be a good gauge on how much people dislike seeing Israel supported over their action. I would vote uncommitted if I was in Michigan because of Israel's support toward settlers, and lack of belief toward their civilian to military casualty ratio because of the questionable definition of soldier being 18+ males.
Voting uncommitted is a fine thing to do during the primary. It shows the party that people are displeased with how the government is handling the Gaza situation.
Sitting out an election in Michigan is a bad idea. If you're in a safe state, go wild. Just not Michigan.
As an outsider looking in, it feels really odd that this could even be a firm issue for any voter. Like that high horse sailed so long ago, how can you possibly blame the current president for what has been a national policy for 75 years?
Sure, push for a candidate that doesn't support Israel and dissent as much as you can. But every time I read a comment about "Genocide Joe" it screams Russian propaganda farm.
I feel like this is just another division tactic to split the vote to favor Republicans.
I have friends who were rabidly for Democrats and their agenda for decades, decrying single issue conservative voters, now acting the same way toward Biden over Gaza as if he single handedly orchestrated this and didn't inherit years of foreign policy.
I fucking hate what's happening there and don't want to support it in any way, but my vote doesn't change what's already established and the alternative is so much worse.
I keep asking for a viable alternative and all I get is vote third party or stay home which solves exactly nothing.
The viable alternative is you continue voting Democrat but you write all your congresspeople and tell them that they need to stop supporting Israel.
At the end of the day, though, if they know this “party loyalty even when I abhor the party’s behavior” sentiment exists then they’ll have less reason to listen to you.
But even if you aren’t playing hardball with them, you can tell them what you think and feel. Humans are swayed by social proof, and if they get enough letters encouraging them to stop supporting the thing, it will sway them.
Assuming they’re human. If they’re not, the only thing they’ll respect is your leverage over them and if you aren’t willing to swing your vote then that’s gone.
But I think most of them are human. Probably not more than a small fraction are psychopaths.
This kind of comment is why I'm on Lemmy. I abhor the policy of the US to support Israel without question, and feel that Biden has let the world down by not calling out the crimes being committed now. But I hadn't considered how this might be used by Republican supporters to divide Democratic support. It sure makes sense. Thanks for posting this viewpoint.
I keep asking for a viable alternative and all I get is vote third party or stay home which solves exactly nothing.
Have you ever asked the Democratic party why they don't put other candidates up for us to vote for? Especially with so much doubt for Biden going on right now?
This right here. It "conveniently" gets forgotten about during every conversation regarding Biden's stance on Israel. Ask Trump what he thinks of Israel, ask Obama, Clinton, Bush, Carter, Reagan's ghost, Nixon's ghost, Ford's ghost. They've literally all been pro-Israel since 1948.
Now is worse than any time in my adult life. Maybe the original displacement of Palestinians in 1948 is worse, but the US wasn't a close ally then and there's no reason a current day voter would have to think that the decisions of past voters were somehow constraining on their current beliefs.
Now, if the Democrats had picked someone who actually supported popular Democratic positions, there wouldn't now be a massive chasm between him and their base on various burning issues they now have to bridge during what may, ironically, in fact be one of the more important elections of our lifetimes.
Democrats don't pick their candidates, the wealthy donors and senior members do. Which is why we always end up with a centrist and empty promises. Money in politics is a cancer.
Those are who the Democratic Party represents. They are the party. If you want to pay membership dues and show up to local meetings, that's fun and all, but the donors and senior members make all the important decisions above the local level, and local power brokers generally have party locals all sewn up, too.
No, we always end up with a centrist because a vast majority of voters are nowhere near as left-wing as the people who flock to Reddit and Lemmy. The American public is electing who they support and believe in, and it sounds to Lemmy leftists like the rest of America is robbing something from them because they never meaningfully interact with people on other parts of the ideological spectrum. Whether you realize it or not, a sizeable majority of American voters do not think or vote like you do.
Support for Palestinians is not even close to being a majority opinion among Demcratic voters. Most Dems that are gen X and boomers tend to (broadly) support Israel, while support for Palestinians is strongest amongst zoomers and younger millennials.
If Biden wins the general, serves at least 2 years, and resigns for health reasons, Kamala will be an encombant in 2028 and 2032. It could well be 2036 before we get another primary.
When you campaign on hope and change only to deliver more of the same and champion the status quo you pave the way for shitheels like trump.
Democrats have very worked hard to maintain the oligarchic status quo furthering the corruption and rot that have led to the current populist/fascist movements.
Trying to get a progressive agenda by only thinking about the Presidency is like trying to win a game with only hail Marys. We need to focus on smaller races in house and build up from there. It would be a stronger and longer lasting change. Even if you're in an area that doesn't have any competitive progressives running in the primary, you are allowed to volunteer to help progressive candidates in areas that do.
This isn't a "implement a progressive agenda" though, it's a "be less genocidal" and it's specifically about the actions of the president. He's been supporting Israel unilaterally without needing Congressional approval. More AOCs isn't going to fix that.
"The Squad" got some concessions from Pelosi at some point, to not have her PAC do that.
The more progressives we get the more we have to bargain with.
Ultimately progressives and Democrats aren't the same party, but for the same reason we are stuck with Biden is the same reason they have to play that game.
Didn't say it would be fair or easy, but it's still possible to make progress and the more progress we make the easier it will get. Change doesn't just happen on its own, it's hard work, and I don't see anyone suggesting any easier options.
This is the answer. If Bernie actually had a base around the country he may have won in 2016. The number of people unfamiliar with Politics that were shocked that established Democrats didn't care for a guy who isn't a party member coming into it to try to win the nomination is downright laughable. If he stayed a Democrat and helped support like-minded candidates around the country, maybe he would have had a better shot in 2020. His heart was in the right place, but I think his strategy and feasibility planning was awful.
LOL, yeah, it's the Democratic label that the establishment cares about. Of course they forgot all about that when they switched up the rules halfway through the 2020 primary to let a damn Republican join the race. Get real.
We need to focus on smaller races in house and build up from there.
I heard this back in 2008. But the next eight years was nothing but losses, in large part because the national party kept kneecapping grass roots organizations.
From ACORN to Code Pink, left activists were targeted and dismantled from within the liberal party.
By the time Trump won in 2016, Dems had castrated themselves across the entire Midwest and were losing in record numbers.
How do you organize under that kind of leadership?
Florida just recently had a governor race where there was a great new candidate but then the DNC refused to back her and chose a former Republican instead to back... And which point why would anyone pick the former Republican governor when you can just have the current Republican governor and the Democrats lost by a landslide again.
They don't want to win they just want to give rich donors a job or a yes man.
She's not wrong, but I'm not sure this strategy is going to work. Biden is at risk of losing Michigan because of his support of Israel, and I think people are going to be swayed by a, "better than the other guy," argument on that issue. You can argue that economically, even if Biden is not as progressive as you'd like, he will govern in a manner closer to your beliefs than Trump. Trump is even more hostile to the Palestinians than Biden, but if Biden is supplying Israel with unconditional military aid while defunding UNRWA, it will be hard to claim that he's different in any practical way. If the democrats are worried about Michigan, they should be trying to push Biden to do something meaningful, like restoring humanitarian aid to Gaza, not scolding their voters.
I heard a pro Palestine rally in Sacramento and the dude on the bull horn was like "Let's make sure Biden doesn't get re-elected because he supports Israel" and everyone walking by was like "Yeah right, sure and let Trump win?! You know Trump loves Israel too right?".
There is a non-zero chance that some "pro-Palestine" rallies are orchestrated by right-wing bad actors that are trying to convince centrists and leftists to not vote because of "gEnOcIdE jOe!" Even though there really is no nuance to the Israel/Palestine conflict any longer, somehow conservatives made preserving human life a political statement.
Literal Russia troll farms setup facebook groups to get people to do this. They did it throughout the 2016 election. There are plenty of useful idiots in the US that fall right into the trap.
If shes so concerned about people turning on Biden, maybe she needs to head to the oval office and tell him to stop fucking funding and equiping a goddamn genocide.
Cause one thing you forget, Democrats are not cultists. We will not tie ourselves into knots trying to defend your bullshit. We will call out, and criticize you when its appropriate.
and supporting and equiping a fucking genocide is a pretty goddamn appropriate thing to be criticizing Biden on.
Its not on the voters to get over it.
Its on Biden to stop fucking doing it and to tell Israel to fuck off.
Is Israel apartheid and slaughtering the Palestinians really so important that you'd throw away the election for?
Is being noble on Gaza worth risking Gaza being obliterated by Trump and the GOP?
I'm going to ignore the implication that "being noble on Gaza" is actually more risky for him and just assume that's true. What the fuck kind of question is this?? Biden should absolutely change course to being noble on Gaza. Yes it is worth the risk, arguing that he shouldn't take that risk is saying you're okay with continuing to sacrifice Palestinian lives over the coming months if it means a better chance of beating Trump and saving them from a theoretical worse fate.
Sure, there's a chance Biden will lose the election anyway, but I'm sure they're capable of understanding how necessary their sacrifice was. I actually kind of hope that you're one of the people who thinks we all should support Israel and that you're making a bad attempt to play sympathetic here, because this this is an absolutely ludicrous contortion to justify continuing to fund a genocide.
No one makes the decision to continue funding the destruction of a people out of concern for what those people might go through if you don't. Total horseshit.
Option 1) vote for the guy that we know with certainty supports the genocide - he sends money, bombs, and military aid (aircraft carriers, navy ships, squadrons of fighter jets) in order to defend Israel from other threats
He diplomatically shields Israel from consequences by vetoing any possible UNSC resolution that would stop the bloodshed.
Option 2) vote for the guy who probably would do all the same stuff.
So 100% versus 90%
90% is the rational decision. If Gaza is your one-issue that determines your voting, you should vote for Trump.
And you may say how unethical, Trump is racist and helped kill Roe V Wade and he's a lunatic who wants to take over the country - and you'd be right.
But are you really going to tell a group of people that are being slaughtered with impunity that your issues are more important than the life and death of tens of thousands of people?
I refuse to vote for Trump because I'm a one-issue voter too... but likewise I do not want to vote for Biden because they are identical on that issue.
If shes so concerned about people turning on Biden, maybe she needs to head to the oval office and tell him to stop fucking funding and equiping a goddamn genocide.
Or, maybe, it's more complicated than that. MAYBE supporting Israel in the middle-east helps keep some semblance of stability in a region that would otherwise be constantly at war, with Iran in particular doing their best to take over all of their neighbors. That's ignoring the fact that unless you're advocating us going to war WITH Israel - the second we pull all funding we also lose all leverage we have with them, and I would expect an almost immediate expansion into all Palestinian territory overnight given their current leadership.
Is the situation fucked? Yes. Is it going to be fixed by pulling funding? Absolutely not.
This whole gaza fiasco very well could put trump in the presidential seat again, even though he should be barred as it is stated in the 14th amendment. Yet it doesnt seem to bother biden or the dnc, this is such a clear example of why people think both parties are the same, because if liberals want to be the good guys then they shouldnt be condoning israels mass slaughtering of the people of gaza.
Yeah, from my viewpoint Tlaib and the "uncommitted" campaign are taking the actual steps to try to fix this liability. The voters that need to be convinced just aren't in a position where one more white politician with no credibility tells them they have to. Not voting is the strategically wrong choice, but voters just aren't that objective, and frankly most probably aren't even hearing any of these arguments.
They need to actually change the reality of our support for a genocidal war, not tell people that reality is irrelevant.
Yeah because as a voter we should put principles above everything else and base our decision on single issues... Isn't that similar to what the MAGA crowd is doing?
Sure, the principles are very different. But the outcome is the same: Hurt yourself by ignoring the complexity of a political system and voting against your best interest because you mainly listen to your emotions... I don't get it!
She couldn't be more wrong. Not voting for Biden will show him what he could lose in the General. Primaries are the more important than the general in this way.
Then run a fucking better candidate. Biden is actively ignoring the will of his constituents. He didn't win because he's likeable or desired, he won because Trump generates negative voter turnout. Imagine if the DNC actually ran someone people were enthusiastic about--they might actually get a fucking landslide.
As much as it doesn't feel like it when inside certain echo chambers there's a lot of support for Israel in the United States. The situation is also very complex with plenty of obviously very bad potential outcomes if he listened to the extremists, I have no doubt 90% of those would then blame him for whatever the result of rash action would be.
You don't like it but it's the politically sensible thing to do, democrats always lose chunks of purist votes that's one of thy main reasons the right manages to stay relevant and there's no point chasing them because of it wasn't this it would be something - there's always something.
Polling is showing that Democrats and Independents are not in favor of this war (Republicans love it, but they don't matter to Biden winning). There isn't a silent majority that makes this a keen political maneuver, it's just out of step with the party.
If a government is intentionally withholding food, medicine and potable water from a population it considers undesirable, it is intentionally committing genocide.
There.
Simple.
A 3 month old Palestinian baby boy died of starvation yesterday.
No, a statement against democracy, and the exact kind of rhetoric that will get Trump reelected. If Democratic leadership is telling people they can't even vote against the chosen candidate in a damn primary now, they might as well come out and endorse Trump themselves. It's obscene.
On the one hand, this is true, you gotta vote for the lesser of two evils.
But also, there are only two candidates.
So now it's this shitty situation where US voters just have to vote Biden no matter what, he can do anything and there will never be consequences electorally. And i really feel like there should be consequences for supporting a genocide.
Yeah, if we had a good process to hold referendums on certain important contentious issues, that would seemingly alleviate some of the problems with the two-party system. And drop the electoral college process entirely
When every side supports Israel, isn't it basically a non issue? I know you guys love to police the world, but maybe choose your politicians based on national, not global affairs
It's too late to fix in the 2024 election, shit you guys didn't give a fuck about before the news told you to care. Fix shit going forward but this is just utterly stupid
"that's right little Timmy, back in my day we voted for genocide and when we didn't we were told it was the only ethical choice, because everyone was doing it."
No one's fucking voting for genocide; not even Biden (whose actions on Gaza are not acceptable) is voting for genocide; say what you want, but he's not telling them to go into Gaza.
And the 2024 election is about whether you want America to still be a democracy. A fascist USA helps no one.
Your only other choice is to not vote. There is no other choice for 2024. Forget about a world that should be, and about how elections should work. You guys didn't care ever and you're paying for it now, so for 2024 these are your choices, this is the bed y'all made. Going forward, work on expanding your choices, but today, sadly this is all you got
Think of it this way: Vote for Biden. Not because you support any war, because you support being able to harass the man for another four years. Don't let him leaving office leave you with regrets! Meanwhile, consider also voting specifically against tyranny.
Personally, I see a chance for change with Biden, or at least the foundations for positive change. All I see with Trump are giant steps backwards.
This comment has a better shot of anything else to get me to vote for him instead of abstaining the presidential and just voting down ballot. And before anyone flips their shit, I don't live in swing state. My vote literally can not matter less.
I refuse to vote for someone who supports genocide. I'm conflicted about it because it helps Trump, but I simply cannot vote for Biden. Gaza is part of it, but he's broken his promises.
He said he would halt the border wall construction and instead expanded it and had a photo-shoot at the border. He used the same exact loopholes Trump did to deny and turn away asylum seekers at the border.
He said he would make the Saudis a pariah state for chopping up a journalist and then he signs billion dollar arms deals.
He makes a big deal out of Russian war crimes when 3x more civilians have died in a few months in Gaza than the entire 2 years since the war started in Ukraine.
He went and pretended like Navanly was a hero. He met with Navanly's family. The guy who organized and marched with neonazis in Moscow and referred to Muslims as "cockroaches" that needed to be exterminated.
It's such a ridiculous level of hypocrisy I cannot tolerate.
If Biden, who we know is better than Trump and whom the current also genocidal RNC cower behind, loses, what will your opinion of Trump be in four years? This is a big picture situation and I'd rather the chance to fix things with Biden in a second term. He has kept many promises and we have been able to pressure him into certain positions. Vote for Biden now in order to have a chance to fix things later. That or the RNC takes over and the U.S. heavily steps into tyranny and fascism. That's the writing on the wall.
One leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
The other potentially stains your hands.
I do understand your position. I just feel it's a righteous stance at the wrong time.
I get it, but a vote is not an endorsement. I didn't want Clinton in office in 2016, and as a direct result of people like me not voting Clinton, the supreme court has been stacked conservative, and will remain so for potentially decades. We need to vote based on what the best possible outcome will be, not what outcome we wish was possible.
I wonder if right wing fascism will arrive more easily and more quickly if we vote Biden vs sitting on our hands and watching trump be elected. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned but I'll try give the non fascism side a leg up every opportunity I get.
Yes, the “fascization” of the US government has been unfolding for decades.
To make a leap from that to an inevitability that “destroying the system to start over” is the only cure…
Well, isn’t the cure is worse than the disease?
What are the practicalities your presumptive solution hand-waves away?
Insurance and reinsurance markets, for example, provide regional/national/global stability for business to happen in the face of mass catastrophe. Medicare and Medicaid provide millions of people with healthcare.
These details, and literally thousands like them, make up the everyday function of government—even if they are currently not working in some places or not working as well as we’d like in many others!
If you’re actually committed to the welfare of millions of ordinary people, then your position has got to be more nuanced than “destroy the system!”
What are we destroying? What are we replacing it with? What kind of work are we doing to ensure a reasonable transition? Who is the we that is organizing toward a new vision? How do we work with opposing forces inside and outside of our camp?
All of those questions fall under the banner of politics and the answers are constrained by the agendas of the participants engaging with the existing system.
I recommend listening to Medhi Hasan debate this exact issue on the most recent episode of the podcast "Pod Save America".
So much better of a discussion than can be had in fediverse comments.
The most powerful thing I took away from it is that there are people in Michigan, right now, who have had literal dozens of family members back in Gaza who are now dead just since Oct 7. That actual, real, current loss of lives is always going to be more powerful than " other guy worse". A lot of them may just not vote instead of casting their votes for their Democratic president who's done less than motherfucking Ronald fucking Reagan did in picking up the fucking phone and calling Netanyahu.
It’s insufferable listening to liberals tiptoe around the real problem- capitalism. I get it, ya gotta pay the bills with ads, but to never address the obvious problem only perpetuates that problem.
It is a goddamn primary election and there isn't oppostion to Biden. Anyone voting uncommitted in the primary is having no actual effect on the general election as Biden will be the nominee no matter what the voters express.
Telling the voters they doth protest too much is electorally a shit strategy.
And shit electoral strategies on behalf of the Democratic Party is how we got Trump once and now likely twice.
You can fuck off entirely with that shit. Biden is not Hitler. Biden doesn't even support what Israel is doing. Biden just isn't a dictator who decides on his own whim where us military funding goes. That's the job of the US Congress.
Except this is about the primary. How is not voting for him in the primary matter? Honestly, the fact that the Democrat party in places like Florida just got rid of the primary so none of the challengers could be voted for is...dumb to me.
I might hate most of the other people running, since they're largely anti-vaccine pseudoscience conspiracy types, but people should still be allowed to vote in the primary.
I mean, it's not drawing the line though. Both candidates are supportive of Israel, but one is going to be catastrophic for the US and plenty of other countries, while one is going to be...fine? Certainly not great, but not a disaster. Anyone saying they won't vote for Biden because supporting Israel is over the line is just giving better odds to the guy who is actively enthusiastic about genocide and they know it deep down. I wish we had a candidate that would tell Netanyahu to get fucked and put money into humanitarian relief for Palestinians instead, but that's not the reality we live in.
I'm with you. But I can't bring myself to blame folks who feel burned out at the options of calm and composed genocide or enthusiastic chaotic genocide.
Like I said, I'm still ultimately going to vote Biden. Lesser evil is lesser. But, fuck dude... I'm so tired of this shit.
Both candidates are supportive of Israel, but one is going to be catastrophic for the US and plenty of other countries, while one is going to be…fine?
And even if we just look at the Israel/Palestine policy, it's clear that Trump is worse than Biden. Not because Biden is doing a good job but because Donald "Kill the familes!" Trump is batshit insane on this topic and would advocate for every brutality he could think of. Biden at least tries to reign in the worst Netanyahu tries to do. For example by making him stop the hunger siege. Trump never would do that.
Going against the best wishes for you and your country because you don't agree with foreign policy (which will not change under either governments) might be the absolute stupidest thing I've ever heard.
It's not a real argument, it's really about saying that you won't participate because you don't like the options. Notably, if you go to lemmygrad or lemm.ml, you'll find that people are all over this. They want to use it to cause "empire" collapse.
Which will ironically cause the GOP to throw away democracy in favor an an authoritarian state. Those people are either Russian propagandists or rubes.
Weird a card carrying member of a political party wants you to vote for the incumbent office holder of a different position who is also a card carrying member of the same political party? What interesting times we live in.
Welp... it's not a lie. What a horrible situation to be in.
Anyways, it it helps, I find it impossible that trump would support palestine. So it's kind of a useless point atm.
How is Tlaib going to explain to her constituents that supporting Trump - who pushed the Muslim ban and called them shithole countries - by proxy will help them?
Biden may not have the best foreign policy but it really is a fascist wannabe dictator who will absolutely support Bibi regardless or we can choose Biden who isn't a fascist who at least has shown some pushback.
Is Tlaib suddenly going to be Biden's best friend after the Michigan primary? How can you vote for someone you've been accusing of genocide for months? No, the people she is inflaming simply won't vote. Or, maybe they'll even vote for Trump using the skewed logic that angry, hurt and frustrated people use. Either way, Tlaib is helping Trump whether she means to or not.
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
“It’s important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote that’s not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,” she said on Sunday during an interview on CNN’s State of the Union.
Tlaib’s sister, Layla Elabed, is the campaign manager for Listen to Michigan, the group that has been leading the effort to get people to vote uncommitted.
The group has the support of 30 elected officials across south-east Michigan, including Abdullah Hammoud, the mayor of Dearborn, which has a large Arab American population.
While Biden will easily win the Democratic primary there, Michigan is a key swing state in the November general election.
“We have left a very damaging impression based on what has been a wholly inadequate public accounting for how much the president, the administration and the country values the lives of Palestinians.
The original article contains 498 words, the summary contains 171 words. Saved 66%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
If Joe Biden can't take primary era criticism and use it to reinforce his general election campaign then he is truly unfit to lead. I'm voting for Uygur in the primary. We'll see who's still alive for the general.
Support between Iran and Russia was flowing both ways, Kirby said, with Iran seeking billions of dollars worth of military equipment from Russia including helicopters and radars.
Can you point to one piece of evidence that explicitly states that Biden supports genocide? Can you also point to one piece of evidence that Trump explicitly states he would NOT support genocide?
Super confusing headline. I understood it as Michigan governor says [she's] not voting for Biden over Gaza war [and she] "supports a second Trump term"
Lol this tribalism is ridiculous. Biden had one job, to be different than the genocide guy. I don't care about the complexity of the issue here, but when our choices are both establishment warmongers it's not really a choice is it? Is it really that big of a ask not to fund the eradication of a group of people and a nationalist government? That should be the bare minimum for a "leftist" candidate IMHO and it's depressing how the goalpost landed here of all places
And yet again, a concern troll boiling down both candidates to “genocide guy”.
I can’t see these kinds of comments as anything other than “both sides are the same” in an attempt to get people to not vote.
Let me ask a simple question: Will you vote for Biden in the next election, or do you choose to support Trump through not voting, or worse voting for him?
If they're not the same on the topic of genocide, who do I vote for to stop genocide?
Your whole post, and that of most of the idiots pushing this "You have to vote for Biden" line of bullshit always seem to make the same mistake.
I can’t see these kinds of comments as anything other than “both sides are the same” in an attempt to get people to not vote.
I don't give a shit how people vote, and I'm not going to try and influence anyone else's vote. I'm not a Russian bot, and I don't get money from the CCP.
Put simply, I'm an individual that won't vote for genocide. It's a red line. When I say that there are lots of others out there like me, I'm not trying to influence anything. I'm stating a very simple truth.
There a lots, probably enough to cost an election, of people that won't cross that red line.
It's especially true in Michigan where a requisite part of the coalition that is required for a Democratic win is of an ethnicity/religion that heavily identifies with the population being genocided.
When you read people stating this, stop thinking of it as some foreign operation trying to shape opinion, and recognize it for what it is. The simple truth, that people who don't want Trump to be president, are trying to get the DNC to recognize.
Joe Biden loses. As a consequence of his own actions.
You can hate that fact. You can rail against the people who have genocide as a red line, and call them all sorts of things like purists, or idiots or whatever.
In the end, it's just you blaming others for the consequences of one mans Hubris that they aren't responsible for.
If you don't want Trump to win, you'd better start pushing for a better Democratic candidate, rather than trying to justify genocide.
Both candidates are establismentarian ASF and represent the oligarchs FAR more than any everyday American. I am not a "concern troll" I'm a leftist with concerns and I'll be voting third party, (most likely green) as a matter of principle. I've done this my entire adult life- you aren't changing my mind in a million years. I legitimately think he's too old, too right-wing, and too corrupt. Dude should just be running as a Republican tbqh.
No. Here we go again. White people created Trump, let them fix it. Stop undermining and pinning this on muslim voters. They are still a minority. Their votes didn't stop Trump from getting elected in 2016 and it won't stop him now. And asking them to vote for Genocide Joe is the evil thing here. There are 30.000 corpses out there that can't and won't be ignored.
My take away is that social media has redefined genocide to mean, "whenever a lot of civilians die," and somehow pinned one on Joe Biden because he won't throw Israel under the bus for defending themselves. Stay classy, fediverse.
So, according to both Reddit and Lemmy, we need to be a ONE political party system, where we vote on ONE type of President every election... that's called communism.
Communism is a system of communally owned property (as opposed to private property) and a distribution of resources summarized as "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."
What you're describing is called a "one-party state." Does what it says on the tin. Some attempts at communism have been one-party systems, but, being an economic system rather than a political one, communism is easily compatible with a wide variety of political systems.
Who's saying that? How are single party states a left wing thing? For every communist totalitarian there have been many right wing totalitarians, not to mention royalty. Right wing media is lying to you. Question this shit.
This entire sub is saying not to vote for Trump because "democracy will end!" Which we all know is bullshit. Democracy will go on. It's a scare tactic from the Left. Everyone around here is basically saying that we should only support a Democrat President. That's supporting one party, one person. Americans are very diverse, we need different candidates with different perspectives.
Haha yeah bro! The disenfranchisement of millions of fellow Americans, utter disregard for the Constitution and rule of law, and the dismantlement of our federal government. What a hilarious prospect that is. /s