Cultural appropriation is when you take something sacred or special and don't treat it with respect. Sombreros and parkas are just clothes.
Thanks for explaining. I never understood the American outrage about cultural appropriation but it's just about respecting sacred symbols from other cultures? Sounds about right, please feel free to dress as a Frenchman with beret and baguette as long as you respect our no-tipping policy.
Next item to discover on my list: why are Americans so upset about "black face". And that's what I witnessed in Sevilla (Spain) recently which did not seem racist to me at all: https://cnnespanol.cnn.com/2023/01/05/polemica-espana-blackface-reyes-magos-trax/
Next item to discover on my list: why are Americans so upset about "black face".
That's because of minstrel shows. They were American comedy acts where actors would paint their faces black and act out racist stereotypes. The premise was "look at me! I'm a black person!" and then they'd do something stupid and everyone would laugh. Note that black people were slaves at the time. When slavery was (mostly) abolished after the civil war, the shows and makeup became symbols of racism.
It's kind of like how a swastika in a Buddhist temple is fine but a swastika tattoo on a white American isn't. The swastika doesn't have to be racist symbol, but there are few places you could display one without it being interpreted as a racist symbol.
To add to that explanation, dressing as a French person in a mocking way is not the same because the French were not enslaved people in the Americas. In fact, they were taking part in the enslaving. It is basically continuing to show that you are the superior party in the power dynamic in an extremely hurtful way.
It’s also when someone takes from other cultures and then claim it as their own without acknowledging the origin. Like how Elvis covered songs from black artists and didn’t credited the original artists and now white people think they solely invented rock n roll.
He didn't credit the white artists he covered either. But the fact that he gets the credit for inventing rock and roll when you had black people like Sister Rosetta Tharpe doing the crazy shit with guitar that Chuck Berry would later emulate all the way back in the 1930s. By the 1940s, she was playing what I think you could arguably say was as much rock and roll as what Elvis was doing.
I wouldn't say it offends me, but it is a bit annoying when someone wears a weirdly modernized/made-sexy version of the traditional clothes of my region, when they're from somewhere else and don't give a shit about the history. Like, it's not problematic or anything, like it would be with religious items or clothing of marginalized groups, but I'd still prefer they don't.
To an extent, like (as a Mexican) I don't give a shit if people wear sombreros or ponchos as a form of clothing, but I see them wearing specifically as a costume especially on days like Cinco de Mayo (which is not a sacred holiday) and it pisses me right off.
My culture is not a costume, and that's where I draw the line at appropriation. If you want to wear a sombrero or poncho cause you think it looks cool and you wear it as a part of your daily wear, that's fuckin weird bro, but you do you.
According to you.
I think the more important factor is taking ownership over something that originated elsewhere.
Even though it isn’t sacred, I would argue that the association between Great Britain and tea comes from appropriation. It wasn’t necessarily appropriation for the Portuguese to bring tea back to Europe, but it certainly was when the British used Chinese seeds and cultivation techniques in India to push China out of the trade.
I think the more important factor is taking ownership over something that originated elsewhere.
This describes virtually every tool, food, piece of clothing, etc you have ever used that was invented before the 20th century. Most of them originating somewhere else and being copied, rebranded, and modified over and over for decades or centuries until they reached their current forms. The only real difference is how recently it happened and if you can wedge it into a power hierarchy in such a way as to be able to blame someone who's an acceptable target for that blame.
Yeah this comic is just for snowflakes trying to feel better.
Literally no Latin American is going to be bothered Or annoyed in any way whatsoever if you don typical dresses of their culture.
We love our culture and love it even more when we influence gringos to dress as our ancestors did.
The joy is palpable. It makes you part of the family. And that's plenty
Besides, no one here knows what the deal is with getting offended on behalf of someone else. If anyone has a problem, they speak up their minds.
Slurs? Motherfückêr, that's half our language.
This is one thing ive never understood about "cultural appropriation." If someone is partaking in your nations/cultures traditions, apperal, food, etc. Why is that a bad thing? Wouldnt people want their traditions known and shared and experienced by many?
Idk im just a white guy who loves dia de los muertos
It's a thin line between celebrating indigenous cultures and heritage and exploiting it. The Washington Redskins being something I feel everyone can clearly see was over that line, but wearing a sombrero is clearly nowhere near it.
I have no problem with that at all. Please dress up for the 16th of September, the Mexican Independence Day, or as a catrín on Día de los Muertos. My Korean friend looked so good as an Adelita and I was so proud of her.
I guess I'd only have a problem with a Halloween costume that exaggerates a negative and unrealistic stereotype but I don't think people make those anymore, or at least I haven't seen one.
There's a big difference between participation and appropriation, and the "anti-woke" hive mind goes out of it's way to conflate the two.
Idk im just a white guy who loves dia de los muertos
How dare you
Some people just love to find reasons to get offended.
Hell, a way to carry a baby was called cultural appropriation by some black people where I live when first Nations have been carrying their baby the same way on our territory since way before any black people set foot in northern America but we don't hear them complain.
"Cultural Appropiation" is the single dumbest thing I've ever fucking heard.
All cultures grow by learning about and adopting customs of other cultures, or in other words by appropiating things from other cultures.
And if they did that didn't we wouldn't have things like anime (Japan took the art of animation from America, not only did The US invent cartoons, but anime evolve from styles used on early Disney cartoons), rock music (Rock musicians are predominantly white, but rock itself evolved from distinctly black forms of music), or really most food in general (Pizza's from Italy, French Fries are from Belgium, Hot dogs are from Germany..... Need I go on?)
At best, demonizing cultural appropiation is just encouraging segregation.
Now if you're wearing the colors or clothing of another culture specifically with intent to insult or in a less-than-glamorous way... That's a different story. (I'm talking about those of you who think putting on an ET Mask and a Sombreo and claiming you're an illegal alien is hillarious)
This is the kind of Neo Liberal nonsense that makes me wish I had a party to root for that wasn't the Democrats
Clothing and food are surface, but important, cultural signs. It can be easy to observe and emulate these for one's own gain either socially or econically. All the while the culture from which these signs are derive are ignored.
Dressing up like a war chief for Halloween is partaking in the costume, but not the culture.
But who cares, right?
It's important to root these in a history of colonial exploitation, marginalization, and erasure. A group of people whose way of life has been noted as barbaric, backwards, or savage were often the same reasons colonial powers saw it fit to steal from them, enslave, and murder them. Donning a cultures dress or making their food tastes "better" has done nothing to restore connection with that culture. It is just a more polite form of their erasure. They have been robbed of their soveignty.Another phenomena, as noted in the comic, is the chill acceptance of this by the appropriated culture. Here, they face no real erasure. Heck, you don't really see this in newly immigrated peoples who want to make a better life for themselves. Being seen is success. But you speak to their first generation children and having their culture flattened to the surface signs can be infuriating if you are the type who views assimilation as a type of loss.
I personally think there is space for a member of the dominant culture to appreciate the culture if they've been invited. But it is important to be careful here as well. Because you may have earned that right with one group from within the culture, but that is not transferable and that exception must be earned again.
Heck, it gets even more complicated when people looking to just keep their schools open and working sge adults employed couldn't care less when asked, but will ask if there's anything that can be done to stabilize their community.
So I've written a lot and feel like I missed so much and glossed over much of what is important. What have you read about the subject that really attempted to wrestle with the concept?
It's damn true. I ran a crew of workers that were Spanish speaking. After two years all I gotta say is, is there a word that isn't used as a dick?
Everything means dick in Spanish if you try hard enough
It applies to everything btw.
To date, "the thing from the thingy" is the most sought spare part in all of Latin America.
You don't know what it is, no one knows, but it means nothing and everything at the same time.
Our hardware store dependents are fluent in trillion of languages at this point
Besides, no one here knows what the deal is with getting offended on behalf of someone else. If anyone has a problem, they speak up their minds.
I can explain. In theory the person who SHOULD be offended is a member of a minority and speaking their mind would open them to backlash from the majority so they say nothing. Its mental gymnastics that let's a member of the majority "be a hero" for a minority even if that person doesn't exist. But who cares about that as long as the white lady can think she is a good guy.
Its stupid and is not really about the appropriated culture.
So, virtue signaling?
Ah, as expected
Also, plenty of Latin American culture was basically forced on the indigenous by the Spanish. There's a reason why poor people in countries like Bolivia dress more like 16th century Spanish peasants than their indigenous ancestors. Those bowler hats people wear in Bolivia aren't part of Incan culture.
If you dress like what people consider to be traditional Bolivian dress these days and you're American, I guess you're appropriating Spanish culture from centuries ago? I don't think anyone would give a shit.
Lol, reminds me of one of the Mario games a while back - no idea what the context was, but Mario took on different personas, which I'm assuming gave him abilities specific to whatever 'form' he took kinda like Kirby.
Anywho, one of them was a Mexican theme, which made Mario don a sombrero and poncho. Lots of touchy white people on the internet were PISSED cuz how could Nintendo be so insensitive to the Mexican culture?!
...meanwhile, Mexican gamers were fucking ecstatic cuz HOLY SHIT MARIO'S WEARING A SOMBRERO! LET'S GOOOOOO!!!
Good times.
That was either Super Mario Odyssey or Paper Mario: Sticker Star (Mario can wear a sombrero in both). In Odyssey it's just a themed cosmetic that can be bought with coins. In Sticker Star, it's an attack.
Yeah and one of the reasons why we will never get again paper Mario references in other Mario games
God-damnit
Cultural appropriation is a broad enough term to functionally be meaningless, but I've found it helpful to think through 4 distinct interests at play, that I think are legitimate:
Proper attribution/credit. We don't like plagiarism or unattributed copying in most art. Remixes, homages, reinterpretations, and even satire/parody are acceptable but we expect proper treatment of the original author and the original work. Some accusations of cultural appropriation take on this flavor, where there's a perceived unfairness in how the originator of an idea is ignored and some copier is given credit. For a real world example of this, think of the times the fans of a particular musical artist get annoyed when a cover of one of that artist's song becomes bigger than the original.
Proper labeling/consumer disclosure/trademark. Some people don't like taking an established name and applying it outside of that original context. European nations can be pretty aggressive at preserving the names of certain wines (champagne versus sparkling wine) or cheeses (parmigiano reggiano versus parmesan) or other products. American producers are less aggressive about those types of geographic protected labels but have a much more aggressive system of trademarks generally: Coca Cola, Nike, Starbucks. In a sense, there's literal ownership of a name and the owner should be entitled to decide what does or doesn't get the label.
Cheapening of something special or disrespect for something sacred. For certain types of ceremonial clothing, wearing that clothing outside of the context of that ceremony seems disrespectful. Military types sometimes get offended by stolen valor when people wear ranks/ribbons/uniforms they haven't personally earned, and want to gatekeep who gets to wear those things. In Wedding Crashers there's a scene where Will Ferrell puts on a fake purple heart to try to get laid, and it's widely understood by the audience to be a scummy move. Or, one could imagine the backlash if someone were to host some kind of drinking contest styled after some Christian communion rituals, complete with a host wearing stuff that looks like clergy attire.
Mockery of a group. Blackface, fake accents, and things of that nature are often in bad taste when used to mock people. It's hard to pull this off without a lot of people catching strays, so it's best to just avoid these practices. With costumes in general, there are things to look out for, especially if you're going out and getting smashed.
I might suggest a fifth item for your list, which has to do with whether you, as a non-minority, are appropriating something that a minority has been given a hard time for. For instance, a number of Black hairstyles have been denigrated for generations, leading to people having to deal with damaging, toxic, expensive, time consuming chemical treatments to achieve more culturally acceptable hair. So when non-minority people wear cornrows or dreadlocks to be trendy, especially while Black people are still being made to feel uncomfortable (or being discriminated against) for wearing the same styles, that can sting in a different way. This isn't limited to cultural characteristics, but it's a sensitive aspect of appropriation that includes cultural stuff.
I take issue with this.
Main point being that, no matter how respectful the appropriating individual is, they are now being judged for actions that they themselves may have never taken.
Secondary point, and I know this is a nitpick, you say "minority" and "non-minority", but those terms can always flip when you change view points. I doubt you would give white people from African Countries a pass on their cornrows for being minorities in their country, and if you did, what if they move to the US?
I think people should be free to enjoy whatever hairstyle no matter the actions of unrelated other people. But what do I know, I'm just a person from a culture nobody wants to appropriate anyway.
Using "cultural appropriation" to drag down regular people is kind of pointless, like freaking out at someone for putting the wrong recyclable type of plastic trash in the garbage.
Cultural appropriation matters at the corporate level, where media shapes what regular people do. Do you want to talk about cultural appropriation? Talk about Disney, talk about Hollywood, talk about Jeep Cherokee, and Decathlon Quechua. To keep with the recycling analogy: your problem shouldn't be ordinary people messing up their trash sorting, it should be vendors mass producing plastic trash for everything.
nah, it just depends on what you’re appropriating from what culture… doing the stereotypical mexican garb is ok with mexico… so that’s cool, dressing in some religious outfit is incredibly offensive… like a native american headdress with a bunch of feathers… it’s also especially offensive in america because of the native american genocide americans great great grandparents probably participated in….
it’s all context… also in how you wear it… (are you making fun of mexicans or having fun with mexicans?) but mexicans are generally cool with americans wearing sombreros… and have a long tradition of american tourists doing so…. plus a sobrero and a mexican blanket is functional gear, not some sacred thing.
cowboys and their whole style is also entirely mexican originally, our cultures are quite intertwined.
that doesn’t change anything else and it’s just cherry picking examples.Bingo, Im white and Mexican born. I can dress up in traditional Mexican stuff and no one gives a crap. If I tried to be a rastafarian, whose faith is focused on the return of African descended people back to Africa, itvwould be wrong.
Indeed. The author of the comic misrepresents it as appreciating another culture. But really it is intentionally misrepresenting or stealing a culture. Like black Cleopatra. Or Israeli Hummus.
The concept of cultural appropriation seems to be pretty useless in practice.
The cases I've encountered where it makes some bit of sense fit better under the concepts of racism or exploitation. The complaints about cultural appropriation online seem to more often attack innocent behaviour or someone genuinely appreciating another culture.
Drink tea, make tacos, wear a kimono, don't be an asshole
The actual complaints I see about cultural appropriation online are mostly directed at corporations trying to sell ethnic stuff. But that's not as controversial.
The silly personal attacks are common in memes just like this one, serving as centrist strawmen to vilify progressives. People love to talk about and ridicule it so much that it seems a lot more common than it actually is.
You sometimes see it on social media, where people dogpile on someone wearing a piece of clothing. But while there's plenty of that sort of lunatics, I think there's way more people out there calling those people loons
But that’s not as controversial.
It IS controversial. Its just controversial for the same chuds who demand the right to throw on brown-face and call it cosplay. As soon as a beer company starts releasing their label in Spanish or putting a foreign flag on a product or otherwise identify with the wrong kind of foreigner, a big segment of the population loses its mind.
A good example I heard once was concerning the tagelharpa. It's an Estonian instrument, historically used in Estonian culture, however if you hear it you'll probably think Vikings. The modern viking/pagan/neofolk music scene uses it prominently, and as it has a much broader reach than Estonian culture, this has lead (through no fault of the musicians I must add) to situations where many people think of it as a "viking" instrument, even though it never was. Thus, a piece of Estonian culture is widely appreciated as belonging to another culture, due to popular media influence.
I don't know if this is really an example of cultural appropriation, but that example helped me grasp the concept (if it is a good example).
That's really interesting! Nice sounding instrument
That's an interesting one. It's not like you can stop music and explain the instrumentation in the middle of a song. I have seen in live shows when they use uncommon instruments they'll explain it either at the start or between songs.
now i want a t-shirt/tote-bag with that line.
Kimono literally just means "thing to wear".
I've heard multiple Japanese people tell me how funny it is how much foreigners concern themselves over wearing... Clothes.
Congratulations, You just defined cultural appropriation.
If I had and it was that easy, we wouldn't have this neverending stream at someone getting offended because someone did something associated with a culture they don't have obvious blood ties to.
I think there is asshole behaviour that could be described as cultural appropriation, but I think the vast majority of them also fit under "exploitation" or "racism".
It's also apparent that if you tell people "cultural appropriation is bad", you get pretty silly outcomes. Suddenly you have protests because a restaurant serves sushi without being ethnically japanese, or someone yells at you because you post a photo of a california roll.
Given those examples I should probably go have lunch
Complaining about sharing cultures IS racism. These idiots complaining about cultural appropriation have gone too far up their own ass.
Melding, sharing food clothing and customs makes everyone better! These bullshit micro divisions need to stop.
The reason feelings of cultural appropriation exist is because the children of immigrants feel like society treats them as foreigners because they're not white, despite growing up all their lives in the US/UK etc. This leads to feeling like some dipshit is enjoying the food and fashion of your home culture while rejecting it's people. Think about a Maga moron voting to kick out all the Mexicans while wearing a sombrero and eating tacos; it's a hypocrisy of culture vs race.
That's just racism and you're not going to fix it by isolating the immigrants more by chastising people that enjoy their culture.
It makes zero sense if the goal is to fight racism. If anything you'd want there to be MORE immersion and exchange of cultures so the immigrants are seen as part of the new fabric instead of separate from it.
"We got to keep them seperate but treat them equal!"
Hmm wonder where I heard that before.
In the end, progressives and racists shared the same end goal: Segregation
As with most things, it's a continuum. Some assimilation is good, a hairstyle, a clothing style, food, even customs. Sometimes certain people can go too far, and it gets more problematic. Think the jeweler in Snatch that isn't Jewish but pretends to be. The episode of The Neighborhood with Nicole Sullivan. Rachael Dolezal.
Exactly, no Scottish person is getting bent out of shape if Im wearing tartan plaid shirts but dressing up and pretending to be Rastafarian would be inappropriate as Im white.
Rachael Dolezal.
Isn't race at least as much a social construct detached from any physical or biological reality as gender is? If so, why wouldn't transrace people be valid for essentially the same reason that transgender people are?
You can go down the rest of the radqueer rabbit hole from there, since most of their positions are just taking positions related to mainstream LGBTQ identities and extending them to ones less accepted by the mainstream LGBQ community, like xenogenders and being trans-things-other-than-gender.
What "idiots complaining about cultural appropriation"? It's not exactly a common thing, despite what caricatures of them might make you think. No one is getting upset that anyone eats food from another culture.
The only actual examples I can think of that I've actually heard discussed are "please don't dress as my race as a costume, it's basically blackface" and "my religion was systematically driven to the brink of extinction, I'd appreciate it if you didn't use it as a fun activity to express your creativity".
These things always seem chock full of getting defensive about something that doesn't really happen, or acting like the smallest pushback to the dominant culture doing whatever they want is incredibly terrible.
Appropriation isn't an issue when it's just cultures sharing. It's an issue when people reduce the culture to the things in question, forget that there's actually people involved who deserve respect, or outright claim ownership of the thing in question.Don't go to a Halloween party dressed as a Puerto Rican. Don't grab a random assortment of native American religious practices, mix them with crystals and use it to showcase your creativity.
It's kinda funny when some crazies are asking to see your family tree and genealogy sample to know if it's alright for you to wear a certain piece of clothing.
Let's observe the chart
Culture is meant to be shared, as long as you're respectful and you're not caricaturing or mocking the culture you're trying to portray, most people from said culture would be flattered.
Yeah context and intend make all the difference. Cultural appropriation is when you try to clad yourself in something that is a facsimile of another culture, usually for marketing or influence purposes, but you neither understand nor have any intend to understand the culture itself or the meaning behind the parts you use for your (usually financial) gain.
IDK, even then, I don't think you need to understand the culture about it so much. E.g. there was some incident about a white girl wearing a qipao to prom and she got called out for it. In the end, it's just a piece of clothing that looks nice. It isn't some deeply symbolic thing for people.
I don't expect her to try to understand Chinese culture before wearing a qipao (which originated in Mongolia before Chinese appropriated it BTW), and I don't expect Chinese to understand Western culture before wearing a suit and tie.
But obviously there are some cases, as you said where context does matter.
It's real simple; is the group in general okay with you wearing doing thwir traditions? If yes, then it's okay.
So Kimonos, mostly okay, Native American Headdresses, mostly not okay.
Native American Headdresses, mostly not okay.
funny how no one ever comments on using native words for our apache helicopters and tomahawk cruise missiles, among others
I found this after a quick-ish google. Looks like occasionally people do, but they mostly get laughed at as the native cultures seemed to find it a sign of respect. And actually felt hurt when a helicopter dropped the naming convention.
You'll love this example of using native language. During the meeting where federal officials proposed the creation of an Indian Territory, the Choctaw tribe delegate Rev. Allen Wright suggested naming it “Oklahumma”. In the Choctaw language “okla” means “people” and “humma” means “red.” As a result, the area would be named Oklahoma Territory, or literally “Territory of the Red People.”
There are some arguments that "Homma" can also be a war title given for not retreating, but within the context of our racial history I don't think that's what they were going for.
It's called White Savior Complex.
When I was growing up in the 80s and some frat-bro types ran around town dressed like the Three Amigos while swilling beers and fumbling their Spanish, parents and teachers would call it "tacky" and "annoying" and "juvenile".
Now, in the 20s, the children of those frat-bros puts on the same outfit and does the same stupid shit. But their peers are the ones rolling their eyes and telling them that they don't look cool, while the parents clap and take pictures and get off on a romanticized youth lived vicariously through their frat-bro kids.
So the frat-bros become resentful. They go home, pull out their crayons, and make up a naked brown man to give them permission to behave miserably. And then they go on podcasts and make Instagram reels explaining how - um, aktuly - if you don't think the tourist-trap Spirit Halloween tier get-up I'm wearing on Cinco-De-Drinko to celebrate getting wasted is cool, you're the real racists.
Then Budwiser releases an "Authentic Mexican Logger" and the same frat-bros lose their fucking minds because their favorite beer company just Went Woke.
Now, in the 20s
Fuck, my back
I don't necessarily know if that's the artist's intention here, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't cross my mind.
Cinco-De-Drinko - yeah that's a quick yoink, just so we're clear I will not be citing my sources
I was hoping to see this higher up. It's not everyday that truth hits you like a ton of bricks, and this needed to be said.
When I was 16 I lived in a small village. It had the charm of country life, but it also had some off-putting characters. Harry, the town butcher, was an extremely right-wind, religious conservative, and a racist. Sarah, the priest's mistress, never had kids and couldn't stand them. And then there was Leah. She was Sarah's sister's daughter and I had a huge crush on her, except I didn't even know it at the time because I wasn't aware a girl could feel that way about another girl.
Anyway, I could write for hours about small town life, about how my friends were the only thing that got me through the day, about how I fell in love and out of love within the same date because the other person was telling me how they rescued a cat just to drop the other shoe - they rescued it from a black couple. I could tell you about racism and classism, about religion and how it turned the entire village against my parents, I could tell you about the time a young Asian child was forced to boil rice for the whole village because "it's in his blood", how his mother wanted to fight it but ended up cheering for the crowd that locked him in old mister Miller's house for the night with just 20 bags of rice and a pair of drum sticks to serve as chopsticks. I could tell you about the Mexican family who once removed all their clothes and set them on a rope to dry in the town square and proceeded to sunbathe because they didn't understand why people were saying their backs were wet. I could tell you about the Eastern European mobster who cut off two of my grandma's fingers when she couldn't pay for some cocaine, or the British "explorer" who came in and wanted to buy the town and put his name everywhere but he could only pay with some pictures of an old lady. Or I could tell you about when the Arab family moved next door so we all slept in shifts in my house because my parents were afraid of terrorists, until Harry the butcher carved "Mohammed" into a pig and left it on their lawn.
I know racism, I lived it all my life. So I could sit here and say a lot of things, but I think the previous poster has demonstrated well enough how you can just sit there and imagine shit and post it on the internet and all of a sudden it becomes true.
Behold, i have drawn you as the soyjack savior complex.
No, that's an entirely different thing
A closer example might be the literal plot to Dune
Only superficially. Dune deconstructs the entire heroic archetype. Paul Atreides’ emergence as the hero and leader of the Fremen is completely artificial and engineered for colonialist purposes (so that House Atreides can control the supply of spice with minimal resistance from the population of Arrakis).
The plan backfires, of course, as the Fremen jihad ends up being more successful than they’d anticipated and spreads off-world and out of Paul’s ability to control it.
At my wedding reception, my wife’s cousins plopped a giant black and gold sombrero on my head to welcome me to the family. I’m expected to bring said sombrero to family get togethers and smash beers con mi familia
I see muchos Modelos in your future!
Are you sure it was black and gold and not white and blue?
It was definitely black and gold or their name isn't Yanny.
Case in point: Mexicans loved Speedy Gonzalez.
Probably because he always outwits his opponents and always wins. He's not any more crazy than the other Looney Tunes, he's as smart as Bugs, and unlike Bugs, he's never cruel and remains firmly heroic.
When I was 12 or 13, we took a trip to Mexico and took public transportation and stayed in small non-touristy places where the people staying in the hotels were more likely to be Mexicans than Americans (not to save money, my parents just thought it would be more fun). I remember sitting in a hotel lobby with a TV on and some Mexican kids sitting around watching Speedy Gonzales cartoons dubbed into Spanish with their parents casually chatting and I was like, "WTF? Isn't Speedy Gonzales racist? They don't care? They like it?"
Like VindictiveJudge says, he's the hero who outwits his opponents and always wins. I'd add that the opponents are always American.
I don’t think it’s offensive, but if you’re wearing that just to make a point then maybe you’re just looking to offend people. This is less directed to the comic and more directed to the YouTube clips I have seen of similar scenario.
I've had so many people claim I'm racist online for saying stuff about China. Even after I point out that I'm Chinese, it still doesn't help for some reason.
You're speaking english on the internet. Not only are you white, you are American and Male by default.
I'm from a time where it was accepted there were no girls on the internet. Only kids and FBI agents. So yes, I'm male :)
It seems like literally every Chinese person I’ve talked to is absolutely delighted when a westerner is interested in Chinese culture. I remember being assigned a trip to a buffet for a high school Chinese class, and my atonal 你好 got about as much praise as a baby sputtering out “da-da” for the first time. I posted some calligraphy on 小红书 a couple days ago and I am getting gassed up for it.
You can say racist stuff about a group whether you belong in the group or not.
What is this absurdity of thinking that you get a free pass to say crap?
"Black people should have remained slaves. But it's ok, I can say it because I'm black"
Nonsense.
Usually it is the Yankees who take offense at the expense of us Latinos. We will always love to see others enjoy a part of our culture (as long as it is not in an exploitative and fetishistic way).
fetishistic way>
I guess it was only a matter of time before I was called out on what I do with queso.
We will always love to see others enjoy a part of our culture (as long as it is not in an exploitative and fetishistic way).
I think this is a big part of the reason why some people get all white-knight about cultural appropriation. It can be quite difficult to know, as a cultural outsider, and from a glance, when something is being done in an exploitative and/or fetishistic way.
You know what? you're right.
Usually, to solve that, what I do is look at who did it and ask (the person directly or myself) why they did it.
A practical example: You know that new DC animated series? I think it's called Creature Commandos. I haven't seen it, but I hear it's very good. Mind you, if you have seen it, can you tell me if anything happens, anything at all, related to Venezuela?
What happens is that they used as intro a very famous and beloved Venezuelan song: "Moliendo Café" (grinding coffee). All the other Venezuelans I've seen have loved it, but I remain skeptical, because I can't help wondering: Did they chose that song because it's somehow related to what is told in the story? Because Gunn just wanted to? Or because it sounded "very Latin" and different enough from the Mexican songs they always reuse? If it's the first, great; if it's the second, no problem; but the third...?
And the thing is, if I happen to come across the Youtube channel of some Swiss guy doing a electric guitar cover of "Moliendo Café", I wouldn't even go to his comments and yell "Cultural Appropriation!", because he's just an individual and what he does is harmless (and pretty neat). But a big company like Warner/Discovery...?
Unless the main people responsible are from or have roots in the country where the cultural expression comes from, it can't be anything but exploitation and, of course, cultural appropriation.
I've never heard about "cultural appropriation" outside of jokes making fun of it. And it's one of the right's favourite strawmen. Maybe it's time to let it go?
The counterexample to Mexicans and their Sombreros is Plains Indians and their War bonnet (those feather crowns they used to sell as "Indian kids costumes"), whenever cultural appropriation is mentioned this comes up, so I'd be rather surprised if you hadn't heard of it before.
Any spicy takes on that one, or have you really just never heard of it?
Idk if I'm just old now and it's not the parties I go to but I'm sure glad that "sexy native american" isn't really a Halloween costume anymore.
It's not a strawmen in that it doesn't ever happen but it's just that those who get upset about it aren't very numerous so it gets drowned out by those making fun of them. And then others see all those jokes and get the sense it happens a lot more than it does.
I got some Malian clothes. Beautiful patterns on them. They were tailor made for me as a birthday gift from my roommate who was Malian, who's family in Mali owns a textile business.
I've received some... interesting reactions to me wearing that clothes.
Telling someone that something they are doing may be considered offensive to a different group sure seems to be offensive to some people...
There is a world of difference between cautioning someone that they may offend someone else and telling someone what they can/can't do because they believe someone else will be offended.
The first is a warning that the person should check with the potentially offended party.
The second is telling someone how they should behave based on their own sensibilities, not the sensibilities of the person they are talking to nor those of the potentially offended person. It is also being offended on behalf of someone else, which is telling that other person what they should be offended about.
The way I tend to feel about this is that it's a jerk move if you're mocking some other group, or reasonably could be seen as mocking them, or try to claim that you/your group invented the thing you're using, but otherwise, borrowing stuff people like from other cultures is just one of the ways cultures evolve.
I can see some people objecting on the grounds that imitating something distinctive makes that thing less unique to the original group, or that an imitation by outsiders won't include some aspect important to the original and then that people that see the imitation won't get that aspect.
I can certainly understand why those feelings could lead to frustration, but applied strictly, the idea that certain things belong exclusively to the cultures that invented them both requires forcing people into precise boxes as to which culture they belong to, and sort of resembles a type of socially enforced intellectual property, which, being against IP as a concept, is something I feel like I'd be hypocritical agreeing with.
Well said.
The only reason im replying is
being against IP as a concept
Has me hella curious. Can you elaborate? Is it the capitalist aspect of patents/trademarks and licensing or something else? I believe that people who invent a concept/character/world should have ownership to develop it into what their grander vision may be before someone else can come and write the story/use of their tool. Id love to hear your side of this though because I don't know anyone thats ever told me their against IP as a concept
This is a great read on the IP topic. I highly recommend it:
This is the co-author's site and it does contain the full text, although physical copies are available directly from the Cambridge University Press.
Here's a summary:
“Intellectual property” – patents and copyrights – have become controversial. We witness teenagers being sued for “pirating” music – and we observe AIDS patients in Africa dying due to lack of ability to pay for drugs that are high priced to satisfy patent holders. Are patents and copyrights essential to thriving creation and innovation – do we need them so that we all may enjoy fine music and good health? Across time and space the resounding answer is: No. So-called intellectual property is in fact an “intellectual monopoly” that hinders rather than helps the competitive free market regime that has delivered wealth and innovation to our doorsteps. This book has broad coverage of both copyrights and patents and is designed for a general audience, focusing on simple examples. The authors conclude that the only sensible policy to follow is to eliminate the patents and copyright systems as they currently exist.
ETA: It's written from the perspective of believers in the broad capitalist structure. The authors are serious economists that support the free market in no uncertain terms.
It's mainly just that, since information can be copied without removing access to the original from the current possessor of that information, I don't see a good justification to restrict use of it. If you steal something, the original owner loses while you benefit. Since the unexpected loss is probably felt worse, this is a net negative and therefore a bad thing. But, if you copy information (which IP by nature is), you can give it to an arbitrarily large number of people without even taking it from the original, enough benefit to in my opinion outweigh the frustration that loss of control causes. Capitalism adds another element given it also ties monopoly over a given bit of information to artist compensation, but even without capitalism, I don't think information should be seen as property
I remember seeing a child have a japanese themed birthday. Some white person was giving off to her parents for cultural appropriation while Japanese people were flattered
Found it
I love this
I'm more concerned that they're dressing their kid up to look like what is essentially a member of an escort service (albeit a traditional one) than that they're appropriating Japanese culture.
Of course it was Tumblr
It turned out that although she looked white and her parents looked white, her extended family was actually asian. So it wasn't even appropiation to begin with.
Still everyone needs to chill, my fellow honkeys, please stop getting offended on behalf of others. Playing the role of the "White Savior" comes off as more bigoted than progressive.
please stop getting offended on behalf of others
You, and the rest of the posters on here, completely misunderstand. I, a white guy, don't get offended "on behalf of others" - the fact that white people have to constantly reference other cultures because we sterilized and sacrificed our own for the sake of white supremacism and "westernism" so long ago is offensive, period.
20 years ago I had white-boy dreadlocks. African-American Christians told me it was cultural appropriation. Jamaican Rastafarians would stop me in the street to share their weed and offer me a ride.
The rastas I knew didn’t care if you have dreads they only were bothered if you claimed to share their faith and weren’t black.
This is an exact copy of a YouTube video from years ago
Are you saying this is content appropriation?
Wait, last time I talked to the Mexican that speaks on behalf of Mexicans, he said the opposite. I'm confused. Maybe you guys were talking to illegitimate, fake representatives? My Mexican had official documents and holograph marked Latino passes he was giving out.
We all have those, share them like candy
A lot of these types of people are just segregationists in a different tone.
Yep. Turns out progressives and racists shared segregation in common
What's next, an individual's racial identity is the most important thing and everything should be seen through the lens of race?
Yeah generally dress up is fine, I think people shouldn't be barred from wearing a costume just because their race doesn't match. And for children especially, if they dress up to be a hero of a certain race, I think that is more representation of diversity in a good light.
However, IMO there is some due respect for that culture and it would be better to understand the significance of a dress one may wear, but if it's intended well most should be fine with it. Using casual stereotypes and jokes cheapen the outfit which I think can be in bad taste.
Like as long as they don't accompany it with racial slurs, I don't think it's a hate crime, just a bit cringey. It would be about the same level as if someone were to dress up as the Catholic Pope, a cardinal or a bishop and give people silly blessings.
I agree mostly with your general point, but I want to talk a bit about your example. I think it's okay to mock the Pope because I think religion is silly and ought to be mocked a bit. Of course, if you're Catholic, you might disagree. It's a good example for that reason. However, Catholics have a lot of power in society. They are not as marginalized as many other groups. So the example might not hit for everyone because intuitively, they don't think mocking Christianity or Catholicism is going to cause much harm in a western country where these groups are incredibly powerful.
Appropriation, and/or, as you said, stereotypes and jokes, are often mocking a culture or a people too. If they are a marginalized group, which often they are if they're being mocked, then it can add insult to injury
To clarify, here's a good example: As another commenter pointed out; appropriation is actually about making fun of things that other cultures hold sacred. An example I have heard of (but am pretty ignorant about myself) is wearing a native american feathered headdress.
I have heard it's reserved for specific people that indigenous Americans want to honor with it. It's like wearing a medal as a general. So, wearing a feathered headeess and cosplaying as native is belittling something they hold sacred.
I agree with you the main faux pas is trivializing things others hold sacred. Using costume to mock and make fun of any race or faith is different than wanting to embody it, which is where I think some cultural sensitivity policies sometimes mistakenly conflate. There is some nuance when it comes to historical and current power dynamics, certain costumes rooted in racism (e.g. blackface), which would be suitable justification to allow or bar certain specific costumes. However on the whole, I think ethnic cultures should be able to be expressed by anyone, when done in a positive, respectful manner.
Brought to you by PragerU.
I was hoping that this was the video pointing out some flaws in the Prager u video, and not the Prager video. When going to the college students he's got the tape on the outside of his fake moustache right? Then he talks to people in Mexico and he's put more effort into it? I am usually careful with watching street interviews too. You don't usually know the context.
They aren't thongs unless they come from the Thong region of Australia, otherwise they are just sparkling flip-flops
Don't be silly, thongs have nothing to do with Australia, they were invented in the 19th Century by Frenchman Philippe Follope.
Correct. And if they don't come from the Sandalé region in France, they're not thongs. They're just sparkling toe slippers.
Those people are just lunatics, ignore them and carry on your day as usual.
On one hand certain things have certain meaning in the culture and maybe some people will look sidewise but on the other hand people that practice that culture probably don't expect some random dude to know everything it their culture. But "cultural appropriation" has mostly been used to virtue signal
Great, let's mindlessly retread the right-wing's favorite progressive strawmen for the lulz. Any other culture war bullshit I can feel smugly self-righteous over?
"Wie de schoen past trekt 'em aan."
If you feel spoken to by this comic then maybe you got a problem...
Do you know what a strawman is?
"my culture is not your prom dress" moment.
I don't know why you are getting downvoted, it is the exact same thing as the comic. People on twitter didn't like a women wearing a Chinese dress to prom, while everyone from Asia was supporting her. https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/us-teens-qipao-prom-dress-sparks-cultural-appropriation-row-on-twitter
I think a good rule of thumb for getting offended is to first ask yourself: does this really offend me, or am I acting offended on behalf of some other theoretical person who's not actually here? And if it's the latter, then you probably shouldn't be offended.
It's just a rule of thumb tho. Like if someone is saying "death to jews", you still have every right to oppose that even if you aren't a jew of course.
What everyone forgets on both sides is it is about NON-ETHNIC companies making profits on ETHNIC traditions.
Imagine if your uncle Jeffy, a staunch republican who is against native American rights to their lands, starts using his multimillion dollar garment company to make native American headdresses and sell them on Amazon. THATS the root of the cultural appropriation craze.
Naturally both sides have descended into idiocy.
OK. But can we NOT ethnically clense Hispanic people? Please?
A new Stonetoss huh
dot world starting to look more like voat than reddit
insert Ricky Gervais cultural appropriation joke here
This. The social Justice warriors that are peddling the cultural appropriation line are not representative of the culture or the people of that culture, their opinions, or feelings on the matter.
What we, as a society, need to do, is let cultures be offended when they feel offended, and not assume that they will be offended by something that we think they should be offended by.
Short version is: don't be offended on behalf of someone else.
You don't know them. You don't know their culture. You don't know what they see as offensive.
Stop assuming you do.
Exactly, just like when you have bullies in high school. Don't assume that just because someone is wandering around mocking and relentlessly making fun of another student that the other student isn't ok with it. We need to leave space for the victims to come forward if and when they feel uncomfortable, and not use our positions of power or authority to try to provide social support to people who we view as victims. After all, it worked for Anita hill and everyone who came after and we gave those dumb whores zero support.
See I can make a stupid, asinine argument too
There's a difference between engrossing yourself in another culture and being actively hostile to another person or culture.
The kind of people I'm talking about are those that get offended on behalf of a culture they're not a part of, for someone simply participating in that cultures traditions.
They're not out there actively mocking, attacking, or otherwise demeaning that culture, it's traditions, or it's people.
The difference is malicious intent.
Bullies have malicious intent in spades.
People wearing the garb of a culture they were not born into, do not.
That is exactly white savior complex. Other cultures aren't troubled children that need us white folk to come save them from other people sharing their culture.
🔥
This video always made me giggle a bit: Students vs. Mexicans: Cultural Appropriation | Man on the Street
PragerU is a right wing propaganda machine (I'm not exaggerating that is literally their business model). That itself doesn't invalidate this video in particular but should explain the motives behind it.
It invalidates it quite a bit. Anything advertising Tim Pool to kids should never be validated.
