Churches close their doors as fewer Americans attend
Churches close their doors as fewer Americans attend
Churches faced with empty pews are fighting to keep their doors open, while former houses of worship are being converted into bars, clubs and luxury condos.
Summary
Churches across the U.S. are grappling with dwindling attendance and financial instability, forcing many to close or sell properties.
The Diocese of Buffalo has shut down 100 parishes since the 2000s and plans to close 70 more. Nationwide, church membership has dropped from 80% in the 1940s to 45% today.
Some churches repurpose their land to survive, like Atlanta’s First United Methodist Church, which is building affordable housing.
Others, like Calcium Church in New York, make cutbacks to stay open. Leaders warn of the long-term risks of declining community and support for churches.
I worked for an agency helping close a midwestern diocese. They branded it a positive thing but I was in the meetings with priests hearing the low down and how closings will go. It’s sad. Half the priests are old and just trying to get through. The other half want to help but are being told the cost of their renovations is more important. Let it crumble.
It's quite a bummer to not have anything planned to take its place as a more healthy alternative, not to mention how it will impact the livelihood of some people.
If you compare it to coal, which may have employed about the same set of people (?), at least talk of retraining was being made...
As problematic as religion is, at least a lot of it was completely outside the sphere of commerce. I could see the broligarchs thinking this kind of thing being a good thing for them, since if people have fewer and fewer options outside of commerce, they'll be forced to engage more and more with commerce, or else just be hermits.
Boardroom meme:
Boss: Church attendance is down. What can we do to turn this around?
Person 1: discreetly move pedophile pastors around to hide their proclivities?
Person 2: assure the congregation that we still hate gay people
Person 3: follow the teachings of Christ and show love and charity to our neighbors regardless of who they are
Person 3 is thrown out the stained glass window.
Person 2: Why don't we literally do what Saudi Arabia / Iran does but Christian
I remember when someone (was it on Pharyngula?) coined the term "fatwa envy". And maaaaaaan, did that really summarize it just so much. You can tell that some NatCs are downright jealous of what their conservative Abrahamic cousins can get away with in other countries.
shocked Pikachu face
I chuckled that the window in this meme was stained glass, instead of the highrise like it usually is.
Good.
Good.
Fantastic news, less grifting. Now shutdown mega churches.
Good.
I pray to God everyday that i can live long enough to witness the day humanity completely abandons religion. Inshallah🙏
You will never witness this. God Emperor Leto is the Holy personification of Shai-Hulud and the Orange Catholic Bible is the only truth in the deep dark known Universe. The only faith humanity shall ever have constantly at its side is war.
Great news! Maybe we can finally tax these cults as well.
Taxing them would force more closures. Do it.
Considering scientology has their tendrils in a fair bit of Hollywood, that might actually backfire on government coffers. If they demand their members strike, the film industry is going to be in for pain.
No, we don't want to tax them. Remember "no taxation without representation". Taxing them means allowing their influence in government.
Not to say that they aren't already influencing our government, but taxing them just opens up the floodgates for it to be done on an official level.
Remember “no taxation without representation”.
I do, it referred to people deprived of a vote.
Houses are taxed. There is no branch of government representing houses.
No representation without taxation
We tax businesses. We shouldn't be allowing businesses or churches to influence government. I believe "no taxation without representation" is meant only to be applied to people.
They're made of people, those people vote. I also don't think companies should have a right to representation beyond what the individuals that make up that company have as private individuals
Oh no! So, anyway...
Some churches repurpose their land to survive, like Atlanta’s First United Methodist Church, which is building affordable housing.
That's something more churches should do. They always preach about "helping the poor" but most don't give a fuck.
One of the best things my family church did to reach out to the community was running a low-cost daycare center in our tiny rural town. It helped local families, bolstered the church's finances, and brought new families into the church.
Unfortunately, it was an Assembly of God church with toxic teachings that I'm still working through decades later. So ... straights and roundabouts, I guess.
Those poor children. Churches and religion should be no where near education.
Almost like taxing them would have been better for society all along.
As churches decline we're losing what is, essentially, a free communal space. Church was a place where people built community.
We need to replace it with something, not just cheer because a shitty religion is dying.
I agree wholeheartedly. I don't know what the replacement would be, however. I keep thinking about that when I think about trying to bootstrap something in my community. Something that somehow (?) is supported to keep the heat and the lights on, and everything clean and very safe, the taxes paid, but provides a place to: 1) meet-up for book clubs 2) has a maker/hacker space 3) Has break-outs for hosting meetups along with projectors, etc. 4) provides open source training of various kinds. 5) Throws social functions, with food and modest amounts of alcohol.... 6) A place with trained staff that put on things for kids to do after school lets out or in the summers
Something with wifi, where access to snacks/coffee is also possible, where people can hang out all day and not feel any guilt for buying nothing or only one coffee and just being in the presence of others.
In some cases, I see libraries trying to serve some of these functions. In some cases, I have seen some "community centers" or the building owned by Elks/Masons also trying for a subset of this... if there is some nonprofit or b corp out there making something like this happen at scale, I'd love to hear it. I've been part of meetups that struggle to find/keep spaces they can use, often they have to rely on someone being employed at some company or another.
But yes, I'm no champion of churches. I also don't want every single public space to essentially dwindle to nothing. Malls are not that - and they are mostly dwindling, too. Starbucks is not that. If the only remaining public space is only trails and maybe the post office (if Musk et al don't kill that too) and the DMV, what a sad state of affairs...
So you're saying we should have more boardgaming conventions?
I'm all in on that proposal.
Or convert them to crack houses.
Not conventions. A convention requires paying for a convention space, and that requires making attendees pay for admittance or getting sponsors to pay in their stead so they can sell products. That's not community.
The power of churches is they are entirely free and not commodified. That's what makes them communal. We'd need something like a communal boardgame hall, supported by donations that anyone can come to without needing to pay anything.
Hell yeah, my wife won't play Arcs with me. I fully support more board gaming.
That "community" is a judgmental indoctrinating shithole that destroys people.
Good riddance.
Yeah but now we have a vague aura of judgemental indoctrinating philosophy and 0 community. We're basically where we were just without any of the benefits. There's some opportunity to build something new and better here.
We'll replace it with more commercial real estate squatting.
See you in the Library.
The library isn't community, you can't even talk to people there. It's a quiet place by its very nature.
And squatting? That's better, but it's ephemeral. You can't get attached to your squat, the cops can come at any moment and then everyone has to bail and find a new squat. That's not good enough.
Unfortunately the internet is now the new 3rd space.
Religion advocated for bad policies in government which dug their own grave.
I don't feel bad they're closing down.
My daughters (public) school choir had to pay $2500 to rent a church for their winter performance last year. Well, didn't have to, but the teacher wanted a different space than the school and apparently everyone thought that was an acceptable amount of money for a 2 hour performance. I was pretty upset when I learned the cost.
We need to replace it with something, not just cheer because a shitty religion is dying.
Why not both?
As much as I'm happy to see churches go, I agree with this. I used to go to church even as a non believer for this reason. Outreach into the community is much easier when backed by an organization that is trusted, and has resources at their disposal.
In sectarian societies, there are community centres, free library’s and non-religious community groups with public spaces.
Even in Capitalistic societies, shopping centres and shopping malls are a place for communities to grow.
The myth that Community requires Region was created by religions so they could more easily control their indoctrinated (just like capitalism).
When did I say community requires religion?
Also my society doesn't have jack shit. We're all alone and it's only getting worse. There's nothing for me. If all y'all have community that's fucking great, but so many of us are being left behind.
While I like that the church is less popular, you are right. A sense of community is needed for a social species like us humans. This is how street gangs work, they recruit young and probably lost/lonely kids and make them feel like they are part of something.
It's not just religions drying up, it's all of the old hierarchical social clubs. Their membership are aging and dying off, and they're not doing anything to recruit Millennials or GenZ. The internet opened up vast opportunities for non-work social contact and relaxed the demand that people gather in one physical place at a fixed time with rules to minimize chaos.
Okay, we are physical beings and we need to gather in physical spaces.
We can't all just be alone in our homes screaming at each other on the internet.
I'd bet a lot of American churches could fairly easily be converted into small music venues.
It's not free, though... I've watched my mother give obscene amounts of money to the church. She even did it when I was growing up, and we had NO extra money to give.
So yeah, cheer. Replace these with something better, like an affinity club with upfront dues that are significantly cheaper.
We have to actively replace them, it won't happen on its own.
they weren't free. Attendance required a 10% income tax.
I wish I could buy into the idea of church as a community; my mom very much saw it that way. However, church is inherently exclusive. It turns away people who refuse to conform to very specific beliefs. It’s hard for me to root for or even accept that as a communal space.
I want to see more YMCA and less church.
Edit: yes I know the Y is technically a Christian thing, but it’s not the religion I object to it’s the exclusion. Never been to a Y that felt like I needed to be Christian to be there.
From what it seems to me, the megachurches are doing okay. It's the more traditional denominations that are suffering. Overall religion might be on a decline, but certain sects are flourishing. One silver lining about some of the megachurches is that they're led by a strong personality and once they're gone, the whole organization putters out. They're more organized around an individual than a theology.
I'm just happy people identifying as religious is dropping overall in the US. I'm fairly young and I really hope before I die it's under 30%.
Or at least under 50%. So tired of them constantly being coddled and catered to in all their feelings.
I remember talking to an evangelist type and making offhand remark that xtians are only like 78% in this country (or thereabouts - this was a while back - it's even less now) and he got so VERY MAD about this basic fact about demographics. The reason I mentioned it was because he was waxing on about how "okay, maybe it's not technically a xtian country, but nearly everyone here is xtian, damn it, so we should matter more (than stupid atheists or those Jews or Muslims or whatever)!" kind of argument they eventually get around to.
I said, what are the 22% supposed to do? Just not have any representation at all? Him being faced with the simple fact that the number of xtians was not the percentage he thought it was and that it was set to trend downwards just set him off. He couldn't even form a coherent answer, just started muttering and kind of wandered off, very red-faced.
I think these kinds of interactions give a lot of insight into just how deluded some Americans truly are about basic facts about the world around them. I blame Faux and other outlets for constantly keeping these people safely tucked away in a big fuzzy blanket of coddling, giving them what they want to be true...
Good riddance.
Interesting that they can't stay afloat financially, because they don't pay taxes.
Sometimes parasites suck their hosts dry.
The internet is killing God but giving birth to a new age of conspiracy theorists.
So, not much has changed.
They feed on gullibility and a craving to be pushed around by authority. Sadly, those aren't going away anytime soon.
Agreed. I welcome this, but I will withhold being optimistic that it means that it is because critical thinking skills are proliferating throughout the population...sure, it should be, because for decades now we have the ability to easily debunk really stupid claims nearly instantly, there are a lot of people making a lot of money pushing complete nonsense at people with algorithms now....
If I were to guess at the real reason it's because, well, there is a lot of entertainment that church is in competition with: games, streaming services, social media, sportsball, reality TV and so on....and face it, attending church is generally dull as dirt.
Theist's are killing god.
Pit of vipers closes due to insufficient snakebite volunteers.
chef's kiss
And yet, somehow, they still make all the policy in this country.
A very vocal and very active minority I guess.
No, don't close your damn doors, open them up to the homeless. Make these useless buildings good for something!
You don't even need to click for the article, it's in the post by op:
Some churches repurpose their land to survive, like Atlanta’s First United Methodist Church, which is building affordable housing.
In Amsterdam there's a former church that is now a leather club.
churches are closing
Good
Leaders warn of the risks
The risks of what? The risk of not returning to the dark ages where we damn near all believed the imaginary writings of goat herders and killed for that?
Thanks, no thanks, I love that risk.
I think the risk more is the bad theology and idol worship that American Christianity is becoming. It’s sorta like how almost all mega churches are “non denominational.” There’s not a commitment to an actual ideology or set of religious beliefs, it’s become a strange cult fixated on Trump. It’s more dangerous in some ways because it’s less predictable. Being a “Christian” has nothing to do with believing that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, it’s more a conservative White identity status.
Yes.
Say, Islam as a religion has the "cut in stone" part, the only way to change that is a new prophet. Literally. And it has the rest, which is up to very wide interpretation. And it doesn't have a central authority (no Caliph today, though a certain ISIS type claimed that role).
So, that didn't make Islam a more tolerant religion. Not even remotely.
The risk is that all the mindless drones and zealots that they have actively created over hundreds of years are now off somewhere else doing the same shitty things they were doing before but for someone else, potentially someone even worse than the church.
For example of a modern religion that exists outside of traditional churches, look at something like ufology. Then in Silicon Valley they have the new AI religion.
Real talk: a lot of communities depend on their churches, particularly black communities in the south, because no one else will help them. It’s a critical hub for community support (hell the GOTV efforts for Obama by black churches was so effective states started passing laws to block Sunday voting. Look up “souls to the polls.”)
A lot of folks here care a ton about organized labor. Churches were critical to those efforts in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Even into the mid 20th century.
I think religion does more harm than good. I am fine with these churches shutting down. But there will be negative ramifications. We need to fill the gaps.
Serious answer: an astonishing, alarming chunk of the american population believes the reason why there are social problems, things like school shootings et al, is because there isn't enough religion. They truly believe that MORE religion is the answer. It's disgusting and intellectually offensive, and I'll fight to the death against anyone trying to force me to adhere to their superstitious dogma (praise be, under his eye). So you should be aware that's the ideology.
Now the religious companies that remain are all merging together or being bought out by larger religious companies. They change their names to some douchey name that sounds like a shitty christian rock band and franchise. Somehow they're still allowed to be non-profits despite being so much for-profit.
Now That's What I Call Christianity: Des Moines Volume
The small churches that are more likely to actually be charitable and are more likely to be inclusive will shut down. The bigot-run megachurches will be just fine.
The mega rich that run them are the fundamental issue.
As always.
Crazy how the same thing happens to businesses when times are tough. The only difference is that businesses have to pay taxes..
Good! Fuck 'em!
45% is considerably higher than I expected. I thought it would be closer to 10-15%.
Membership is not the same as attendance, and it's WAY less than the number of people giving financially.
I was a preacher at a 1200-member church that had weekly attendance around 150-200.
And based on the demographics of the area, we received less than 1% of the annual income for those who did attend regularly.
The thing about churches is that they don't require payment of any kind, and kind people will dedicate time and effort in a very loving way that is inefficient, when what we really need is cash.
My go-to example is the quilting ladies who spend 40 hours each on handmade quilts using expensive materials to give to the poor. It's extremely kind and their work is exquisite, but with the money spent making those quilts for 20 people, we could buy blankets, a couple weeks of food, and new clothing for 50 full families.
The thing about giving money, though, is that it feels impersonal to the person giving the gift. This is also why the poor should be taken care of through taxation. Taking care of people's basic needs shouldn't need to feel intimate and spiritual - it should be routine and boring.
My go-to example is the quilting ladies who spend 40 hours each on handmade quilts using expensive materials to give to the poor. It’s extremely kind and their work is exquisite, but with the money spent making those quilts for 20 people, we could buy blankets, a couple weeks of food, and new clothing for 50 full families.
Yeah but those ladies feel better about themselves, which is what religion is about not helping people.
You make the comment "the poor should be taken care of through taxation". How do you feel about churches being taxed?
I am not religious at all, but I do know a pastor who is very kind, and have talked with him quite a bit. While he believes in God and the Bible etc, he is also respectful and understanding of the times. He believes in abortion, and takes criticism in stride without trying to make stuff up when responding. If he doesn't know, he will admit as much.
I called out his entire church group in front of him for being hypocrites (I had/have some minimal involvement with them due to my relationship) when they openly criticized another religion and started trash talking them because an extremist did a suicide bombing. They immediately started trying to backpedal and make excuses for what they were saying. There were several other very shitty things a few of them did over a period of several months so I started pointing everything out. They all got silent and the pastor stepped in to appreciate in a manner of words what I said, and told them that kind of response to an event no matter how bad it was, was inappropriate and not representative of an entire group of people.
Ok, so sorry for the back story but there is a reason. Pretty much every church I have been a part of (I grew up in the Bible belt and had religion shoved down my throat growing up) I have seen nothing but hypocrites. One single pastor that I have met, in my entire life, I feel would not complain if churches started getting taxed.
So what is your take on churches getting taxed?
Hallelujah!
fucking good.
Government grifters and charlatan faith leaders have completely debased the idea of 'Christianity' over the past few decades to the point where most people associate Christianity as some joke religion that no one really takes seriously.
Personally, I see anyone who proclaims themselves as Christian as a liar, bigot, narcissist and someone lacking in empathy for others. Sure you can tell me about Jesus Christ but I associate anyone who claims him are just paying lip service to the religion and that they are just psychotic sociopaths who are only interested in power and money.
I don't mind Churches dying out because they've basically destroyed their own religion themselves.
Unfortunately, humans are a dumb species that rely heavily on wanting to believe in something so once this religion dies out another one will take its place and repeat the process. It's been happening for thousands of years so I don't think we'll stop that tradition any time soon.
most people associate Christianity as some joke religion
But, it started as an essenic cult. It's not accidental that scient\ologists consider someone leaving the cult as a death, the same metaphoric resurrection if they return; you get how that's similar, right? Your brother is executed instead of you, you have survivor guilt, you nope out of the cult, they call you dead, you reconsider over a few days, you're back in - yay, it's a resurrection!
Anyway, considering Christianity a bit of a scam or a sham isn't strictly a new thing.
Good.
Good
Crazy that it takes the church shitting down for them to actually follow gods message of giving to the poor.
There's shit down everywhere!
it's shit turtles all the way down
They are working behind the scenes to push women back into the kitchen and stoking white nationalist rage.
At least there's some good news!!!
Mega churches are still going strong though. There definitely needs to be a way (other than taxes because separation of church and state is impt) to get churches to spend that money back in the community, but instead it just ends up enriching the owners and investors. If there was anything which needed an anti-corruption intervention.
Churches should be tax exempt only so far as they are demonstrably charitable. All other income should be taxed. The taxes should go to fund abortion and gender affirmation surgeries.
The "charities" can have a hateful agenda, as well. So even there, we're left dubious. "Render to Caesar (pay taxes), feed the hungry, heal the sick, clothe the naked, minister (take care of) prisoners." It doesn't take a religion to fund necessities (like food, health, clothing) through taxes; and it also satisfies most religions' basic tenets.
Mega churches are still going strong though
The worst people still go to church and still run them. I guarantee you 99% of every mega church's attendance is MAGAts and 100% of their pastors are.
The small country church by my house is filled with cars bearing "Trum*” tags.
There isn't a true seperation of church and state at this point. There are plenty of fundamentalist politicians, and churches and religious organizations donate (bribe) politicians as much as business orgs do. If they are going to donate to politicians they should be taxed.
There have been plenty of laws passed attempting to force xtians bullshit, it usually gets challenged and removed but it constantly happens.
“Nobody wants to church anymore!”
Hip Hip
Hooray
There'll be no Weezer in this thread...
And some are forced to sell off the massive amount of prime real estate they were totally going to build churches on and not pay any taxes on the profits....
Heaven isn't real
We have the means to make our own right here, right now but some of us are too greedy to make it happen.
More importantly, in heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here.
Neither god
I have a better idea. Seize the land and assets of the churches. They haven't contributed their fair share of taxes, so the land belongs to us.
Next seize the homes and bank accounts of the pastors and clergy and the holy rapists (or whatever they call themselves). Indict them in international courts for crimes against humanity. Offer them plea deals for them to work in their seized homes that are now converted to public housing.
Goes hand in hand with a similar story I heard about a month ago regarding a shortage of pastors. Apparently it's so bad, quite a few have to lead sermons at multiple churches and many simply skip some weeks. Also less trained people taking up the role, whatever that means anyway.
Honestly, get ratio'd, cultists.
IIUC, some are coming from developing countries.
Best news I've heard all day
Congrats to Buffalo, it sounds like things are looking up there.
In my area (WA state) there was a small-ish Xian church (the one-storey building was probably <2000 sq ft and cheaply built - the steeple-ish thing (w/o a bell of course) blew off in a windstorm once)) that shut down a year or two ago and was boarded-up. It's been repurposed as a homeless shelter that specifically serves people with serious medical problems. The change has greatly improved the 'hood.
People here are arguing for the (gate-kept) community that Xian churches once offered in the US. By "gate-kept" I'm referring to the fact that Xian churches were, and are, open to only the "right kind" of people. I'm sympathetic to the need for community, and have even looked around locally for what's on offer from Xian or Xian-aligned/compatible organizations, but haven't found any that promote an ideology that isn't based on superstition and that don't demand that I defer in all things moral/ontological to a human power hierarchy within the church. One whose authority, such as it is, is based on "it's in the Book".
Hard pass on that. I'll find my community through volunteering and possibly, one day, through fraternal orgs, though I've found the ones around here (Masons, Rotary, &etc) are still hardcore on gatekeeping themselves, despite being on the wane just as much as Xian churches are. If you think you'd be most comfortable in a Xian-churchy sort of context, but are politically and socially "liberal", the UCC seems pretty inoffensive, though they still (at least locally here) carry on about "worshipping" invisible deities all the time. The Unitarian Universalists (uua.org) seem the least offensive of any old-timey church that I've encountered and it has a certain appeal to me for its association with New England and with 19th-century intellectuals like Emerson and Thoreau. The local UUs have had a local schism in the past five years, with the historical church taking a politically rightward lurch and another UU church spinning-off it but seemingly being more preoccupied with how their church is controlled (no more all-powerful pastor-types, only collective decision-making allowed) and less with charity and community. Finally we have Unity here (unity.org) which has potential for community, but where weekly service addendees seem to be almost exclusively elderly, so I wonder how much longer it will be a going concern?
I'm hoping that someday we get a Satanic Temple that meets in-person here. I could definitely see myself joining that. The Church of the Subgenius (https://www.subgenius.com/), praise "Bob", would suit me well too, and I already own a copy of the Sacred Text, but they don't meet in person AFAIK.
It’s been repurposed as a homeless shelter that specifically serves people with serious medical problems.
Church had to shut down to accomplish what Jesus would had done? Sounds like an onion article.
I tried to join the Masons here last week. I was a decent fit, and I didn’t mind the dude being a little up himself about the org, but they don’t take agnostics. Ok good luck, I’m sure you’re getting plenty of interest from younger prospective members.
FINALLY! You guys start to get secular state!
We still have to deal with Putin's "200 churches" bullshit.
Psh. Until trump’s project’25 handlers make church attendance mandatory for citizenship.
Prayer day in kenshi IRL
while former houses of worship are being converted into bars, clubs
i want to see the pastors faces when their church gets turned into a full nude titty bar
depending on the church that could be a very interesting idea.
literally just walk into a full on church with the pews and altar and stained glass and strippers and communion shots
A kink club
It's not that far, but a couple of years ago, a Spirit Halloween took over an abandoned church at a town near here. I'm still mad I never took a picture.
maybe not a safe space for girls, daughters, and grandmothers.
quite region dependent, in the rural south they're still pretty strong, in the rest of the country and in large cities, not so much
Hi. Indiana here. Plenty of full church parking lots on Sundays in this shithole. Lots of Jesus billboards too.
Next up: Republicans trying to make church attendance mandatory.
They're already turning schools into churches, so they're probably not too upset over this.
Prayer day in Kenshi
Safer for the kids
thank god
Churches that shut down don't get burned down.
The church is nothing but a tool of opposition. Glad to see it have less influence.
Hallelujah
If a church can't be supported through its active membership, it should close. Better no church at all than one sold out to the world, making money from investments and forgetting their true purpose.
Kids can sleep easy tonight. The cult is dying.
but if they don’t get 10% of everyone’s income how can they afford to reallocate and protect the offenders??
Should have been burned down, but nothing will ever right the wrongs religion inflicted against the human species.
Should be noted that the Roman Catholic Church required individual parishes to give their churches and the property on which they stand to the church. If a parish refused, they faced excommunication. It's all about raping kids and a money grab all the way up.
And they say there’s no such thing as good news.
Sad that public spaces are disappearing but relying on funding from the ultra wealthy has been the death knell for christian churches.
Ad Victorium!
Ave, true to Caesar!
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
Too bad its not baptist.
praise whatever!
Do they turn to. Slum lords?
And there's a church made of calcium? What if it rains? Do they not know how reactive calcium is?
Short for calcium carbonate
I hope
Good riddance. God is dead and we have killed him.
He was more trouble than he was worth.
In my hometown, we still have over 10.
Finally some good news!! Closing the doors to a cult is a good thing.
Didn't realise I wandered into /r/atheism in this comment section.
The internet is generally pretty atheistic, social media notwithstanding.
Jesus christ I thought r/atheism was bad. Anything religion related gets you ppl foaming at the mouth
Oh well.
Look, I have no problem with people worshiping God or Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. This world is hard enough, if that helps them navigate it, GREAT.
Where I do have a problem is the hypocrisy. Christians beat us over the head with their bible, claiming they're the ones being oppressed, then they vote for a guy that's been divorced three times and cheated on his pregnant wife with a prostitute. The bible says we should help the needy, but these "Christians" support cutting programs that do just that. They worship the prosperity gospel, which is the opposite of what the bible actually says. The bible says, "Love thy neighbor" but many Christians seem to have added, "...unless he's gay, Muslim, or not white." I'm a cyclist, and I firmly believe that some drivers would happily run me off the road on their way to Sunday mass.
They go to church every Sunday and proclaim themselves "good Christians", but then treat everyone else like shit the other 6 days and 23 hours. If my Catholic education was correct, God cares more about your behavior during that time you're NOT in church. Maybe they'll get theirs in hell, but they're making life shit here on earth for everyone else.
I know, it's not all Christians. Unfortunately the 90% that are doing these things are ruining the reputation of the rest.
Seems every commenter is a militant atheist. I think this is sad! Christianity gave me a lot in a time in my life I needed it. Christian denominations really need to consider why it isn’t appealing to the next generations and if they really want to continue to mix with anti-science, alt-right, bigoted groups. Many denominations have voted quite progressively in recent years but that’s not enough to make giving up Sunday morning worth it to busy struggling young Americans.
It also seems the way districts are run is nonsensical. My family’s church was run by a phenomenal second career pastor, used to be an engineer, who was quite logical in his approach to Christianity. As someone slowly becoming Buddhist he was very open to my ideas and I enjoyed talking with him. Then they switched in some ignorant selfish pastor who literally destroyed the church causing 50% of the people to leave along with all of their financial support. It took the district almost a year to “send them in vacation”. What the heck!
They need to get a grip or they will die.
WTF is a militant atheist? I don't think anyone here has murdered or even beat the shit out of someone in the name of atheism.
I think that they are referring to the somewhat adversarial attitude of the comments in this thread. I think that a religious person, especially a self identifying Christian, would feel a bit uncomfortable reading these comments.
Merriam-Webster on "militant" (2nd definition): aggressively active (as in a cause) : combative; militant conservationists; a militant attitude
That's not what "militant atheist" means. It means, well... The sort of atheist who'd celebrate churches closing.
Communism.
Personally, I'm anti Christianity because I grew up in Boston and there was a massive conspiracy to protect pedophiles... also because it's strongly related to the pro-life movement... also because a Christian school rejected my stepson with extreme special needs because my partner "wasn't the right kind of Christian"... also because Christians are slow to denounce other Christians (anyone who doesn't consider Westboro Baptist a hate group can get fucked)... also because a lot of Christians feel the need to make everyone else Christian too... also because Churches don't deserve tax breaks... also because a huge number Christians repeatedly voted for Trump because he was "The most Godly candidate"... also because they're trying to take over America... also because a good chunk of them applaud the genocide in Gaza... also because a lot of the large churches deny climate change...
Fuck man, I could keep going.
I know an alcoholic who got clean through Christianity - I'm happy he cleaned up his life. In the grand balance of things though Christianity is so fucking deep into being a net harm. But, you're correct about one thing - it's hardly a monolith. I was raised in a UCC congregation and those folks are pretty alright. Our church had an official statement condemning bigotry and embracing gay and other LGBT+ folks in the early nineties. You'd be hard to find a fault in the above list that applied to that congregation...
But in this case the bathwater is so toxic that it's worth throwing out the baby with it.
Well written. Thanks for the long thought out comment.
As someone who also recognizes how Christianity hurt my world view and becoming Buddhist wildly opened me to the world, I really appreciate this ex Christian’s YouTube channel
https://m.youtube.com/@BeliefItOrNot
Sorry on mobile
Christianity or science. It can't be both. There's either magic or there's not magic. If there's magic, science is meaningless.
Different spheres: one can be science and the other cosplay.
Begging your pardon, but the likes of CS Lewis, Francis Collins, and Jesus of Nazareth would like to have a word with you about that... e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "be skeptical about everything", and John 13:34 "be ye not giant dickeths to one another".
Or there's 1 Timothy 5:18 "the worker deserves their wages", or Deuteronomy 24:15 "pay your workers the very same day" (literally: "before the sun sets, bc they need it"), or James 1:27 "offer healthcare regardless of ability to pay", and so on.
It turns out that religious numbnuts who refuse to read anything at all but keep making up new rules to add to the pile (heaping heavy burdens onto people without bothering to lift a finger to help)... don't really know much of anything? Not about what "freedom" is, or "love", or "religion" either. Go figure!? 🤪 Maybe it would help if instead of listening to child rapists who just want their money (and children) they would instead pick up a book - any book - and read it!?
So yeah, fuck religious hypocrites. Seriously, Jesus in Matthew 23: 1 - 12 says exactly that too:
do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
and
You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil?
You... on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.
I find that people of any faith whatsoever - Christianity, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. - share a lot in common if they are not extremists. And right now there's a lot of value in atheism since nearly everyone is "first generation", but eventually atheism will fall prey to the same fate as well - it's human nature, and no system or belief is perfect. But I do think it helps to accurately diagnose the issue and point the blame more squarely where it belongs, i.e. the tribal "in-group=good but out-group=bad" is something that would be fantastic to get past as quickly as possible.
Bc to me your words seem to line up perfectly with 1 Thessalonians 5:21, hence you even agree with Jesus that most people calling themselves "Christians" (or "patriots" or whatever) are fucking idiots, however strange that sounds.
Magic is just the stuff that science hasn't proven yet. Emphasis on the "yet".
EDIT: Before anyone else misunderstands what I meant, I'm not saying every aspect of Christianity or the Bible will inevitably be proven (though I can see how it can be read that way, hence this edit).
I'm saying that magic is what we can "observe" happening but not be able to explain with science. The ratio of magic to science has been rapidly shrinking in the last century or so, and I'm suggesting that we will continue to understand "magic" (or, the previously-unexplained) better as science progresses.
When books like the Bible were written, there was a lot more "magic"/unexplainable stuff. Of course, there were likely also misunderstandings and fabrications. It shouldn't be taken as a reliable account of observations, either, so its magic will not necessarily be explained by science, just as Harry Potter's won't.
As someone who leans towards perennialism I can see the value in religious traditions but militant atheists are a reaction to the hypocrisy of organised religion. it's great you where able to get something of value from the church but many more don't and indeed lose something into the bargain through no fault of their own.
Good points.
I personally dislike militant atheism. There is a line between anti-Christianity or religious it’s versus praising their downfall. It’s more terminally online atheist communities such as Reddit that are like this though.
That said, I think you’re wrong that more are being hurt though. Christianity is actually on the rise in the US (I think?) and China (fastest growing Christian nation actually).
Seems every commenter is a militant atheist. I think this is sad!
It's called self defense. Feel fortunate we desire peace and not the retribution inflicted upon us throughout history and modern times in religion's name.
I don't think terminally online militant atheists want peace. Hence the name militant atheist. Example reddit atheism.
