YSK that chiropractors are not medical doctors and "Systematic reviews... have found no evidence that chiropractic manipulation is effective"
YSK that chiropractors are not medical doctors and "Systematic reviews... have found no evidence that chiropractic manipulation is effective"
"Systematic reviews of controlled clinical studies of treatments used by chiropractors have found no evidence that chiropractic manipulation is effective, with the possible exception of treatment for back pain.[8] A 2011 critical evaluation of 45 systematic reviews concluded that the data included in the study "fail[ed] to demonstrate convincingly that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition."[10] Spinal manipulation may be cost-effective for sub-acute or chronic low back pain, but the results for acute low back pain were insufficient.[11] No compelling evidence exists to indicate that maintenance chiropractic care adequately prevents symptoms or diseases.[12]"
Anything a chiropractor can do that will actually help, a PT can do better. They'll also teach you what exercises to do to prevent needing to see them again.
A chiropractor will just tell you to come to them more often, and take more of your money over time.
You can save a lot of money by just going to a masseuse instead of a chiropractor. People attribute the positive feeling they get from attention to well being improvements, and pseudoscience practitioners certainly achieve that at a premium price. If it's attention you want, get a massage, otherwise go to a PT and get some real help.
I would also point out that any pro quackocracker post you see here is the one time they might have helped someone just out of random chance, those people are loud and tell everyone how great their quackocracker is. Its simple confirmation bias, they have a sample size of one, themselves, this is not how data works.
I go to a sports physiotherapy group. Much better results when the goal is to help me recover so I don't need to come to them.
You can also search out a GP that is a DO Instead of an MD in the US.
They still learn osteopathic manipulation, which is a broader form of manipulation not limited to the spine that helps with stretching-type exercises. But they are certified (often with the same board exams even) and licensed on par with MDs. Many clinics have DOs among their providers.
Important caveat of "in the US". In most countries, osteopaths are basically the same as chiropractors. In the US, DO licensing is the same as MD licensing, so they do have to learn real science and medicine in addition to the fake science and medicine of osteopathy. Personally, I wouldn't aim for a DO as my Dr., but if I already had one that I liked, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Osteopathic schools are easier to get into than medical schools, cause we have more people that want to get their MD than we have schools to teach them, so plenty of those people become DO's.
In my corner of the world, most CPs are also PTs. Or rather the other way around: they use chiropractic as one of many therapeutic means in their portfolio. I have to say, I very much appreciate this approach, as it relives the initial pain/discomfort but also addresses the underlying problem.
This is a great point. My MiL is a chiropractor (a non-quacky one), and she incorporated a lot of PT into her practice. Additionally, I read a couple years ago that PTs are beginning to incorporate the good things from chiro (whatever they are. I'm not a doctor) into their own practice.
A roundabout way of saying that we learned some things from chiro, but PT was always the future.
I see my chiropractor once ever couple of years, I do most my own chiropractic stuff myself so I only visit her when I can't deal with it. She knows I'm not gonna come back for a mother year or 3 so she doesn't even tell me to book.
A chiropractor will just tell you to come to them more often,
If you are going to one that does, you are going to the wrong one. There are a lot of quacks in professions and some of them are AMA licensed doctors too.
I was very skeptical of them until a friend recommended one he personally knew for my painful shoulder - he even offered to pay for the visit if it didn't help. I was amazed when I walked out of the office completely pain free.
Many professional sports athletes seek out massage and chiro with good results because they cannot afford miss events and can't test positive for the drugs that many conventional doctors would push.
There is a place for all avenues of remedies depending on the problem. Incompetents can be found in all professions. That said, is far too easy for a poser to set themselves up as a chiropractor.Incompetents can be found in all professions
seems like thats the crackocracker industry problem, they simply dont have any standards. I'll grant you there may be some crackocrackers who actually have some skills... maybe, but if a patient has to go to 20 of them to find "that one good one", then that industry is garbage
A lot of it can be done at home without a pt. Foam rollers and yoga mats are your friend. Even better if you can get a second pair of hands that know how to pop a back properly.
That's not exactly the truth.
Yes, there are plenty of medical practitioners that poorly represent their profession. I'm sure you could easily apply the same logic here to PT, NP, DO, MD, etc.
What should be emphasized is that Chiropractic has heavily evolved, like any other healthcare field and there is a high degree of overlap between PT and DC methodologies. So much so, PT has lobbied for adoption of joint manipulation.
A good DC won't limit themselves to 5 minutes visits for a quick adjustment. A good DC is evidence-based, incorporates rehab and education, and provides care to the body and systems.
A chiropractor is way cheaper than PT. Money is such a limiting factor for so many people that, while your advice is true, it has a similar vibe to telling a broke person with car trouble to just pay a mechanic to fix it. It's the best option but I don't blame them for trying something less expensive.
PTs are also broadly not very helpful with very limited knowledge. I don’t think I've ever met somebody who was genuinely helped by PT, though I’m sure some of them out there take their jobs seriously.
Like any profession that is service based it is "your results may vary". My pt has helped me with exercises that have helped me get past tennis elbow and shoulder tendonitis.
its not just not helpful, it can be deadly/dangerous.
strokes are triggered by these idiots.
Strokes, but also broken necks.
And some of these quacks do "adjustments" on children and infants.
Saw that on episode of Bullshit with Penn and Teller. Anyone who would do that to a baby should be imprisoned for life.
Yeah, the last time I went to a chiropractor for back pain, they also "corrected" my neck which in the past felt good but this time it just immediately pulled a muscle in my neck and left me in pain and barely able to turn my head for weeks.
It's better now, but I'll never go back to a chiropractor again because of the risk of making things worse for essentially no benefit.
Also animals, I saw a video of someone doing it to a pit bull and after he cracked the dogs neck the pit gave him the "I'm going to rip your fucking throat out" look.
It's straight up animal abuse.
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.str.32.5.1054
Thank your pointing this out. It's not just any stroke too, it's primarily vertebral/basilar artery distribution strokes. Those supply the brain stem which includes such necessary functions as control of breathing and consciousness. You don't want a stroke anywhere, but particularly not there.
Some chiropractors might swing back that, you've only showed correlation not causation. Well, when we have no clear evidence of chiropractic neck manipulation being helpful for anything, and we have a likely very dangerous correlation, the clinical parsimony is just not there. So no one is going to run that study (give a large amount of people neck manipulation, a large amount of people no neck manipulation, and compare rates of stroke that occur afterwards), it would be very unethical, no institutional review board would ever approve that study as ethical to perform.
And it makes a lot of sense too, the vertebral artery is encased in the neck vertebrae, so violent movements of the neck vertebrae can stretch and tear those arteries. Those tears, called a dissection, can sometimes obstruct blood flow all on their own, but more often create a spot for blood clots to form that then move onward into the brain and basilar artery (since there's turbulent blood flow and a defect in the smooth artery wall that normally prevents your blood from clotting). So please, no violent neck movements for any reason, chiropractor or otherwise.
This. My friend had a triple stroke shortly after having neck manipulation done by a standin for his usual chiropractor. Luckily he survived, but it has very much opened my eyes to how dangerous it can be.
Yeah, I was coming in here to say similar.
Chiropractors aren't just not effective, they are fucking dangerous.
But boy, oh boy. Say this to a believer and get ready to loose an afternoon.
loose an afternoon
That’s alright. A chiropractor can tighten up that afternoon for ya.
Indeed. I’ve got a chiropractor in my family, and I actively avoid talking to them about their work because I’ve always been convinced that it causes more harm than good. I think they finally got the hint after the 1000th time I refused their offer of an adjustment. They do some genuinely bizarre stuff beyond the standard adjustments, and talk about it like it’s proven science.
People should also be aware of the growing number of alternative mental therapists popping up everywhere due to the shortage in actual psychologists.
They are nothing more than life coaches with a six-month certificate in whatever-the-fuck, most of which are disguised as Masters qualifications from wherever-the-fuck.
Chiropractors and osteopaths only exist in such large numbers because they bill less to insurers than actual doctors & hospitals. So of course insurers are going to promote these quacks because it's cheaper than somebody going to an actual physiotherapist for treatment.
There should really be legislation that requires insurers to cover science & evidence based treatments. If someone wants woo it should be at additional expense to them, not part of a standard policy.
So, DO's in many of not most states in the US have the same licensure and practice limitations as MDs and charge/are reimbursed similarly. I'm many cases they actually attend the same residency programs as allopathic/MDs. Most I've worked with drop 99% of the Osteopathic manipulation stuff soon as they graduate. Naturopaths on the other hand....
If I pay for a business to make me a chocolate milkshake under the same health code regulations and standards as the place across town, I don't want them finishing it off by stirring in a spoonful of shit with the ice cream as a bonus. Even if >99% of what's in the cup is not shit, it isn't somewhere I'll go and I'll make an effort to discourage people from going there too.
Osteopaths, chiropractors and all those other flavors of cargo cult imitation medical quackery differ only by the proportion of ingredients. Making a distinction between them is meaningless, it just lets the less-obvious liars get a foot in the door.
(Additional note because this is the internet: This is a "spherical cow in frictionless vacuum" scenario and ignores things like accidental contamination as well as the narrow range of illnesses where an appropriately-prepared and administered fecal transplant (which this is not) may be indicated.)
You've got it in reverse. See that "possible exception for back pain"? Chronic pain related to joint issues is ALL chiros do, insurance used to cover that when you had a back injury or whiplash, things it works for. Then insurance stopped covering that, pretty sure it's because they favor you getting a prescrip for pain killers but that's conspiracy on my part, and a lot of chiros started to turn to less savory things, as they did that more and more snake oil types who claim chiropractic work is some fuckin miracle come out of the woodwork.
I've worked with these issues a lot in representing injured workers, including litigating coverage of chiro treatment. In my experience, insurers will always cover chiropractic if it is under the direction of a doctor. A lot of orthos send their patients to chiros for treatment. Insurer is fine approving eight or twelve sessions as ordered by the treater. Where they have a problem is when it's the chiropractor directing the care. You know, if you get hurt and you just go straight to the chiropractor, they will say they need to treat you indefinitely, twice a week or something.
As for efficacy, it's undeniable that chiropractic care feels good. If it feels good and the patient believe it's working, that's enough to make it work for real. No doubt, there are plenty of studies that bear out improvements of objective functional capacity and subjective pain ratings after chiropractic care. The mechanism is that the "adjustments" affect the autonomic, sympathetic, and parasympathetic nervous systems, and prompt the release of neuroendocrine factors such as serotonin and dopamine. For some people that is enough to feel better and even heal. For insurers, many of them are happy to pay for a course of chiro care because doing so may save them from having to pay for continued Ortho followups, skilled PT, guided injections, or even surgical interventions.
On the other hand, chiropractic education and practice is highly subjective, and the entire field lacks consistency and validity, and IMO is inadequate for the forces it exerts on the most sensitive part of the human body: the cervical spine. Cervical manipulations are highly dangerous. It can severe arteries, cause strokes, cause stroke-like symptoms from nerve palsy, and can break vertebrae; this can easily paralyze or kill a patient, and the chiro cannot know these forces are likely safe for a patient unless they've reviewed prior imaging of the cervical spine and know for sure there are no preexisting stress fractures, lesions, or neural impingement.
At this point the industry is so large and powerful that the medical industry and regulatory structure has decided that patients may decide to bear these risks for themselves.
I am actually really torn about this one, on one hand I had one episode of back pain that lasted nearly a year, swearing up and down the whole time that chiropractors were basically witch doctors and that I would never go to one. However, when I finally caved and went to one he fixed my issue after two sessions. On the other hand, my more recent back pain was not helped after I saw my chiropractor four times. In addition, I work as a nurse and have now seen at least three patients come in with vertebral dissections, essentially a stroke, that occurred literally right after they had seen a chiropractor for neck pain. Anecdotally, I would say it isn't worth the risk. Had I done physical therapy and used bought a tens unit the first time I'm sure it would have also fixed it without the chiro, but I was lazy
That's the thing. Chiropractic could be considered a manual treatment which is a therapeutic modality. PTs do manual therapies that are less traumatic and are one component of the musculoskeletal issues that contribute to pain that chiro claims to heal. For most situations of acute back pain they resolve in 4 to 6 weeks so even the ineffective treatments appear to help- it's just like treatments for the common cold.
I’m a radiologist and I too have seen multiple cases of vertebral artery dissections and stroke immediately following chiropractic manipulation. Absolutely no chance I would ever suggest someone see a chiropractor.
This is the entire problem with quackocrackers, they have no ability to diagnose any illness or disease. So people who think they just have a back ache and go to a quackcracker instead of a real dodctor are delaying getting a proper diagnosis, so then if they happen to have something more serious like cancer, they'll essentially be sacrificing their own life by going to quackocracker instead of finding out whats really wrong.
It's because what they're doing can sometimes provide temporary relief and when it works, it works fast. An underlying cause has made some inflammation, they stretch things out, relieve some pressure in places that shouldn't have pressure. But they're not fixing anything, just letting your body get back up to barely functioning until the underlying cause rears it's head again. Messed up discs are their bread and butter, but they're just resetting the house of cards you call a back.
Actually fixing the problem is a big, expensive, scary, painful deal and (US) chiros let insurance companies off the hook for a long time.
Someone who knows what they're doing, and knows the limits of what they can do, can benefit certain physical conditions you may have. But they're not doctors. They have no prescribing power. A lot of people go there thinking that they can also prescribe them a medication, which is not the case. But there's no standards for being a chiropractor, so each one is different and some may do little to help you or even hurt you or name you and in some rare cases, kill you
Not only can they not prescribe anything (because they are play doctors not real ones) but they have no access to the medical equipment (other than xrays which can literally only tell you if you have a broken bone) so they have Zero ability to diagnose whats really wrong with you, or your back, or anything really. Its all guesswork for them and the few people on here who say "quackocracked hepped me!!" is the one time they get it right out of 10 or 20 failures.
I'm 100% on board with science and evidence based therapies but I've had a similar experience with back pain. I won't let them manipulate my neck at all though.
I'd say the science is clear: humans don't understand what makes them sick and they don't understand why they get better. We value our own anectdotal evidence over actual research almost every time, and we keep making the wrong conclusions. I'd go so far as to say that you can't be "on board" with both science and with your own conclusions based on anectdotal evidence. It's one or the other.
I could share anecdotal evidence, and we know what that's worth. But the idea that they're all witch doctors rings false. Just as the notion that a certified physical therapist is just dandy.
All told, I'd shy away from chiropractors, especially these days.
If you see a youtuber calling themselves Dr. and giving out medical advice, 99% they are a chiropractor.
I met one of these in an airport bar! He introduced himself as a doctor then when I asked what specialty, he said he's a chiropractor. "Ohhhh, so not a doctor doctor."
He was not impressed.
I was searching for humorous podcasts over the weekend, and found Say More with Dr.? Sheila - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/say-more-with-dr-sheila/id1707936869 - I hope you enjoy it.
I think you’re exaggerating. Quite a few of them are from the field of functional medicine, which is certainly totally legitimate.
If you have spinal or neck pain, see a licensed physiotherapist. If you have a toothache, do you go to a toothiologist to have your teeth punched? Or do you go to a doctor of dental medicine?
I mean a chiro would pop your back for your toothache.
I mean, if you want to re-shape your nose you can either go to a cosmetic surgeon, or run full speed ahead into a brick wall. Either method would accomplish the mission. One is cheaper, one is more predictable, both are potentially lethal.
Cosmetic surgeons are still surgeons though, even if the procedure is unnecessary.
typically you see your PCP first.
PCP is the one who makes referral to other physician specialists, like a pain and rehabilitation medicine physician. the PM&R's attempt to identify the pain generators through a series of different types of injections sometimes accompanied w/ PT, OT, MT, and possibly chiro.
when those fail (conservative treatment), the Pt is referred to either a neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon.
I know people that swear by it which I can kind of understand if you have pain and they "pop" something and you feel better. But is it really helping if you have to keep going back?
I wonder if it's a placebo effect. Like I go for a back massage every month or so and feel good for a few weeks but I'm fully aware it's just muscle pain relief and not some permanent fix.
Muscle pain relief is pain relief. I don't go to a chiropractor and I'm confident most of them are selling snake oil but I kinda view them as a next level masseuse.
If I were more comfortable with strangers touching me a massage might be nice. A chiropractor sounds like a next level up. I feel relief when I get a good back crack.
I don't believe in it, and I'll never go, but my girlfriend does.
Yes, she has to keep going back, but when they "pop" the correct thing, she's pain free for weeks. When she holds off going, she's in pain and can't sleep until she goes.
I personally don't trust them, and it's a lot of money for temporary relief, but I guess it kinda works? As long as you're fine with the trade-off being fucking paralyzed when they crank your neck at the speed of sound.
Honestly, your girlfriend would be far, far better off going to a competent physical therapist. It sounds like there's a muscular weakness that's allowing a joint to not stay in place.
In almost all cases, people will get better long-term results by doing physical therapy rather than going to a chiropractor.
There are good chiropractors who are just trying to treat pain. 95% of them are woowoo worshipping morally bankrupt bastards. Even those guys can be helpful if what you're looking for is short term care for an injury that's in the process of healing.
They are not good for treating chronic pain. They may be able to help you manage your pain in the short term while you seek real treatment. But over time, your risk of injury from a chiropractor only goes up. You should limit your exposure to chiropractic 'therapy' to as few sessions as possible, and the second they suggest they can treat anything other than a temporary injury, find someone else. It won't be hard they're fucking everywhere.
The thing is, this study is talking about "chiropractic manipulation" which is a very specific thing. (With that clicker thingy I think?) The thing is, chiropractors tend do do lots of different therapies, like stretching and massage. So you could go to a chiropractor who performs some kind of massage which is effective at temporary pain relief.
Sounds like the chiropractor has no reason to fix her for good. It's for-profit healthcare, and she keeps coming back. If he fixes her properly he's going to lose income.
I will add, as someone with a connective tissue disorder, that a quick "pop" can help a subluxated/dislocated joint, but that's something that can and should be done by an actual physician. And if someone has joints that are especially unstable (for example, bc of a connective tissue disorder), subluxations/dislocations can happen pretty regularly.
This is NOT a defense of chiropractors. And chiropractors are even more dangerous for people like me because it's easier for them to seriously damage our joints. Go to a PCP, a rheumatologist, a physical therapist, it doesn't matter, just go to a real doctor.
My wife went to a chiropractor weekly for the last few months of her pregnancy (the chiro office specialized in pregnancy chiropractic). It helped with managing some of the back pain she already had plus the new ones. The best way she described it was like a massage for your bones, feels good and alleviates pain in the short term but doesn't fix anything long term
I used to see a chiro, stopped while I was pregnant after he 'treated' PGP. (I'm hypermobile, and pregnancy made everything ready to dislocate.) Daily pain went from 5/6 (manageable, barely) to a 9 and severe mobility limitations.
I was slowly moving, but able to move before that appointment. Could barely walk, and climbing stairs was not happening for months after.
A physio realigned everything, and I walked out of the first appointment and could take stairs again. Ended up at a specialist dealing with the aftermath of that chiros treatment.
Physiotherapy is my first stop now, and I will never set foot in a chiropractor's office ever again.
First hit isn’t even free
I messed up my hip once.. couldn't get it right .. super painful. Chiropractor did it up and was ok from then on. Who knows!
Ex had an issue. 6 treatments and she was done for good, never went back. So yes, sometimes they know what they're doing sometimes it works.
Painting the whole profession as witch doctors? Meh, they're not touching my neck, but I'll listen to what they say. Educated and licensed doctors and nurses can be total fruitcakes as well.
They get paid a lot less per hour, have less support staff, and less equipment. Hence any given unit of time they spend with you costs less. Additionally you have more options of which to choose.
Been to a doc recently? Think of how fast they try to get you out of the room. Feels like you are begging them to please listen to you. Well a chiropractor can spend the time talking to a patient. Of course you feel better, someone heard you complain for over 30 seconds and really listened to you. And if you weren't listened to you, you just go find another one.
Clearly you've never been to a physiotherapist. It's usually always a 30-60min appointment and they spend the entire time with you, bonus is they are actually trying to fix your problem instead of just temporary pain relief so you keep coming back forever. Not to mentioned they are board certified and didn't get their certificate from a cracker jack box.
One of my best friend’s fathers was an MD before retiring.
The cadaver he used in med school: broken neck during an “alignment” at a chiropractor’s office.
Anecdotal evidence for sure, but definitely a story that I think of whenever someone talks about going to a chiropractor.
One of my best friend’s fathers
How many fathers did they have?
Touché. Ya got me!
Don't "patients" like die from this all the time/randomly?
They never complained afterwards.
Dead men leave no bad yelp reviews
-proverbs for the 21st century
All the time? No, but it's happened before. Particularly with high neck manipulations that sever the spinal cord above the point where the nerves that control autonomic functions branch off from the neck (I think that's C2?) Randomly? Also no. It's a very predictable result of spinal manipulation. Just like lung cancer doesn't happen 'randomly'; if you smoke enough and long enough, it's pretty likely, but if you don't smoke at all it's very, very rare.
It's definitely happened. I think the technical term is "vertebral artery dissection." I don't think it's like a daily occurrence or anything, but there is a very real risk of it happening whenever you get a chiropractic adjustment on your neck. Basically you have some delicate arteries running through your neck bones and the sharp sudden movement of certain chiropractic adjustments have the potential to rupture them. It can cause a stroke and some various other bad things that can happen when blood flow through the spine is interrupted.
That image feels designed to look like porn at a passing glance.
Everything looks like a nail when you're a hammer.
Jackhammer grip reporting, everything looks like porn if you squint hard enough!
Can confirm. Am hammer.
They knew what they were doing.
Quick reminder that Physios and Chiros outside America face different rules for accreditation, and may not warrant similar judgement.
Nope still bullshit here and not USA, you have problems with your bones and muscles? Go to a physiotherapist.
Laws and accreditation don't change how the human body works (and, importantly in the case of chiropractic performances, doesn't work). No energy lines to unblock, your humors or bile aren't unbalanced, a wheatstone bridge can't detect alien ghosts and some distant planet's apparent motion from the Earth's perspective isn't causing your misfortune. We're just meat machines no matter which map lines you're inside and a medical professional who can't keep their mysticism and fantasy out of the workplace can not be trusted to maintain their patients' physical or mental health.
If chiropractic was legit people wouldn’t have to keep going back for more “treatment”.
If you’ve got a bad back, watching your posture and doing some core strength training is more effective.
Seriously. I had a friend extolling how good his experience with his chiropractor was, in response to my tale about physical therapy after a skiing accident. I ended the argument pretty quickly by asking "how often do you have to go back"
That’s a weird standard. People see physicians for years because of chronic issues.
Are you saying my brothers oncologist isn’t legit because he has to see him for life ?
Not all their techniques are garbage. DO are trained in manipulation as well. The basic premise of chiropractics is what’s at fault. I’ve seen newer chiropractics switch to more PT style of treatment. No idea if that’s in their scope but I know one who rarely adjust people. It’s mainly massage, weight lifting and body mechanics.
One point of going to a MD is to treat an existing condition. Obviously not every condition can be cured but that’s the aim. Chiropractic doesn’t even try and treat a condition, it’s all about short term relief.
For what it's worth, as a massage therapist I've interviewed with some chiropractors and know plenty of other therapists who have worked for them. The number of chiropractors NOT doing some kind of shady billing or breaking some other scope of practice/ethical boundaries is shockingly small. I'm sure they exist, but in swapping stories with other therapists over almost 2 decades, I might know 1.
For example, one Chiro I interviewed with had his "program" set as patients being categorized into "back" or "neck" patients. Depending on which you were categorized into determined how many sessions (manipulation plus other therapies) per week for 8 weeks the patient would receive. After 8 weeks he would reassess. Seriously waiting 8 weeks to see if it's helping. He knew what insurances would cover, so he cookie cuttered his whole practice. From what it looked like I don't think people "graduated" by getting better, moreso just once they ran out of money.
I think this depends on the kind of chiropractic work. If they are just there to pop bubbles for that crack, then nothing is happening. I got into a car accident and my insurance sent me to a chiropractor that never cracked my back. Instead he gave me physical therapy, got me MRI images to check for an cracks on my spine or hernias in my discs, and gave me some equipment to help relax my back muscles and provide support to my bacl. I feel like this kind of work actually does provide benefit. I don't go anymore since all of that stuff is cleared up now, but I would trust that guy with my back again if I needed it.
Yeah, If the chiropractor doesn't use chiropractic methods, it's definitely preferable.
Did you maybe go to a physiotherapist? That doesn't sound at all like a chiropractor, especially the MRI and actual treatment part.
Some chiropracters are more or less "bootleg" physical therapists that use the same treatment. Of course, there is no guarantee that a given chiropractor will use effective and proven treatments like a licensed PT practitioner.
That's just a physiologist right?
Yup
A good chiropractor is one that doesn't use chiropractic "treatment"
Honestly the best you can get is good deep tissue, which is why many chiros employ a massage therapist.
How does a chiropractor prescribe an MRI? Seems like that shouldn’t be possible 🤔
it's an interesting decision to exclude
with the possible exception of treatment for back pain.
and
Spinal manipulation may be cost-effective for sub-acute or chronic low back pain
from the title here
Right? I feel like that is 90% of the reason to get it.
I don't think you understand the level to which people take chiropracty. People use it in a "cures what ails you" mentality. Colds, flu, hand arthritis, all sorts of diseases. There is a ton of danger in allowing "back cracking for healing" when it doesn't do anything that couldn't be done with massage.
There are people who bring their newborns for "alignments" back pain is definitely a reason to get it, but not the reason.
Physical therapy will always be the better route.
Unless you have so much pain that you're unable to do even the most basic PT exercises, like me. PT did absolutely nothing, and it was $200 out of pocket for each stupid appt.
I doubt chiro is going to help much more, then.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
How Chiropractic Started as a Ghost Religion
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Almost like alternative medicine is an alternative to medicine. Sue these scammers out of existence.
There's that old chestnut: "you know what they call alternative medicine that works? Medicine."
You know what they call alternative medicine that actually works... medicine
Well that's just great. Where am I supposed to go to get my vertebral artery dissection now?
I was under the impression that the assertion that chiropractic neck manipulation causes vertebral artery dissection is often suggested, but that evidence of such a causation is inconclusive. I certainly believe it, but I can't assume. Chiropractors may twist the inconclusiveness into suggesting that such neck manipulation is safe, but that's a fallacy.
I lean towards believing it, based on having met a person who suffered a vertebral artery dissection, and cerebellar infarcts, following chiropractic treatment.
With a little practice, you can do it yourself!
Ya it doesn’t. It’s pseudo science that gives you temporary relieve. It doesn’t cure you of back pains permanently
Worked for my ex-wife. 6 treatments and he sent her home, fixed for good. The bad stories may outweigh the good, but let's not pretend all practitioners are dumbasses.
For people who point to certifications and education, I'll remind them that plenty of doctors and nurses smoke and are anti-vax. It ain't a perfect world.
They are not practitioners. They hold no medical degree and you should not trust them with any medical care. Treat them for what they are, glorified back crackers who peddle pseudoscience and may kill you by accident.
The best way to treat this is to ensure you have good posture and exercise regularly
That's just dumb... Smoking is healthy
This is one of those things, like acupuncture, that I will not fault anyone else for engaging in. There's no hard evidence that they are effective, but if it helps you with your problem (even if it's all in your head), then it was worth it, was it not?
I know people who have had their lives improved and their mobility restored thanks to chiropractors. I also know one or two who swear they got scammed for years because the pain always comes back really quickly.
I may not personally recommend a chiro to someone as a solution to their back or neck pain, but I won't discourage them from going if they are considering it.
Acupuncture can also fuck people up. Unsurprisingly it's dangerous to have someone with no medical training inserting long needles into your body.
Anyone benefiting from chiropractic probably just needs a real physiotherapist.
Oh you have back pain? Let me lightly stab you, I'm sure that'll help.
hell yeah, nothing wrong with scamming desperate people out of money
I guess my point is that it doesn't really matter if their practice is backed up by hard science or not if some people still experience tangible benefit from doing it. Is it still a scam if the scammer provided you the product that you paid for?
Like I said, I would never advocate for someone to go see a chiropractor, an acupuncturist, a homeopath, a shaman, or whatever alternative treatments that might be out there over going to a real doctor or therapist, but if they're already going to one and claiming that it's working for them, why bother trying to convince them otherwise? You can tell them it's pseudoscience until the cows come home, they're not going to be inclined to listen.
Acupuncture is quackery too. At the very least it should not be part of any public health service, or insurance policy, and people gullible enough to go for it should have to pay out of their own pocket.
This was news to me too not long ago, but acupuncture is legit and used in western medicine. I found this out because a friend of mine in the military received acupuncture to treat his back pain. Like a white dude named Brad that went to med school put 3 or 4 pins in his ear and his back pain was gone for the day.
Here's an article more scientific than my antidote. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129299/
You know it's a legit therapy if a dead doctor told you in a seance about it.
Hell yes! The creator decided he wanted to be a doctor, but he didn’t want to go to doctor school. So he made up his own medicine—with blackjack, and hookers!
I like the doctors that didn't die.
My insurance has chiropractors as a separate category with its own maximum $. Meanwhile physio & every other athletic therapy excluding RMT gets lumped into a single category. It's fucking bullshit and I can only assume someone was payed off to make it happen. $500 a year of insurance $ I can't use without endangering myself.
Saw a chiropractor because I was starting to wake up with back pain every morning. Bought into something like a 3 month, twice per week program because the loss of sleep was really bad and he said he was pretty sure it would help.
After 3 months, I was still having a lot of difficulty. After an adjustment I'd be fine the next night but it would come right back.
So I decided to just go buy a high end new mattress. Boom. Every night after was a no-pain night. Never went back to the chiro.
This. Go buy three different pillows and experiment to discover which one gives you the best sleep. It's cheaper that one trip to the chiro and will more likely yield long term results...
Even if they made me feel better it is so temporary that I'd have to come again, and again. I'd rather go to a massage therapist who could also get the rest of my body too without the risk of vertebral artery dissection.
The best thing I've found for my back is slow, varied motions and stretches. I do tai chi and qigong and they really loosen me up.
The amount of people in this thread not reading more than the headline is mind numbing.
And completely expected
I went to a chiro for a while and it did help but I think it was mainly because they'd have me do a fairly comprehensive set of stretches at the beginning of each visit. I stopped going to the chiro but I keep doing the stretches.
More like chiroquacktors! Haha, you get it? Because....
They have a twisted relationship with ducks
No, with Quakers
So in other news the sky is blue.
Pseudo-scientific jibber-jabber doesn't actually work? Color me shocked
I used to know a chiropractor and I always called him Mr. _____ instead of doctor.
You're still allowed to call them "doctor", you just have to pronounce the quotation marks.
I'm allowed to call a cult leader "God" and I'm allowed to call the idiots at the apple store "geniuses" but I'm not going to devalue those words either.
Generally agree with this, but one time when I was little landed on my back on the edge of a trampoline and really hurt my back. After some back and forth my parents took me to a chiropractor who fixed my pain, saying I probably moved a disk onto a nerve or something like that.
So I think pain caused by physical movement of the spine like my injury is totally legit as a reason to go to one
Astrology works the same way. Anecdotal evidence is really effective but the data clearly show you'll get more consistent relief with real doctors and real physical therapists.
I don't disagree with you. For me there is a fine line for appropriate and inappropriate use. Those who swear by chiropractors definitely cross it
I don't doubt whether you and your parents believe that going to a chiropractor fixed your pain. Can't exactly zip around with a time machine and see what would have happened in that scenario if you'd gone to a doctor, done some stretching on your own, or just gone about your day ignoring it (among other options). Anecdotes like yours suggest that there's a helpful effect from going to chiropractors but when it's studied by competent professionals, those benefits disappear because chiropractic practitioner beliefs and performances are not constrained to the narrow limits of reality.
If someone is injured beyond the simple stuff like cuts that you can slap a band-aid on or sprains/strains to be treated with RICE (Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate), go to a doctor. Head, neck or back injuries in particular are not something to gamble on but I'm glad your case turned out okay.
Glad they worked for you. One thing I would add: Maybe make sure they're actually skilled/qualified and not a chiropractor-in-training using you as a test dummy.
I read about one of these guys breaking sick arm bone lol. On the other hand, where I live, these guys have to literally go through similiar shit like physiologists so theyre as safe as any other quack with paper is. I have mixed feelings.
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. I don't want to give any credit to pseudoscience, but but I also know chiropractors receive at least some real medical training, at least in regards to basics like anatomy. I've known people who studied chiropractic medicine (and acupuncture, which I put in the same category), and they were not idiots or scammers. And of course so many people swear by their chiropractors. I don't consider patient testimonials a replacement for scientific studies, but until I see a study that explains why so many people feel that way (in specific terms, not just a general reference to the placebo affect), I find it hard to completely dismiss their experiences.
For the sake of not sounding totally gullible, I should probably mention I've never seen any kind of alternative medicine practitioner, and I probably wouldn't except as an act of total desperation.
As an anecdotal evidence, I've visited chiropractors twice. One was pretty wierd and didn't do much in terms of massage but succeeded to make my muscles relax somewhat. Another one was applying quite a lot of force but hopefully didn't make any damage. Both were somewhat successful for very short-term neck ache improment.
Long term I should do gymnastics, that works better and is safer, but as of lately I don't 😞
See, you are not a real doctor, Allen!
I know this but I still don't understand it. I started visiting a chiropractor for my first time last year and I'm old. I couldn't sit for a week. I couldn't get my socks on. I couldn't lay in any position in bed except on my back. I went, and I was immediately 80-90% better. Had to do followups for about 6 weeks and I haven't been back 😂.
I don't understand why they aren't.
Of course core strengthening is always better but that's preventative.
it's a temporary fix. A patch up. If you don't focus on proper posture and stretching excersizes, it's very likely you could end up in that same situation again
This is what I am saying. Maybe I wasn't clear.
Same boat as you, it at least helped me a bit.
OP is just spouting misinformation that was/is spammed on Reddit for years with nothing concrete to back them up.
Chiropractic has its benefits. The problem is that you can't make a living if all you are doing is the few things that chiropractic works for. That's why they have to make all kinds of spectacular claims about the benefits and rope you into 6 months of twice a week visits.
The Dr I went to as a kid was an MD and had a chiropractic license. He was able to reset my rib when it got knocked out from being shoved between the seats on the school bus.
No.
"with the possible exception of treatment for back pain"
Incomplete quotes to further an agenda? I thought we left that behind with reddit? @OP, take this to shitposts if you're shit at posting :(
False, I go and feel better afterwards, check mate
erm thats actually placebo effect ☝️🤓 you do realize that the effects you feel dont matter, since studies indicate otherwise
I recently learned that chiropractors in Switzerland are very different. They are all medical doctors and need to fulfill strict requirements so they can work as chiropractor. It is also a common thing here to go to chiropractors and I have never heard of any accidents.
Imagine hating chiropractors so much you have to downvote a true fact without spending a second looking it up yourself.
those are 'licensed physical therapists'.. the few good things that might be attributed to chiropractors are ready done by actual medical professionals... even here in the u.s.
the difference is, we allow quacks to pretend to be 'doctors' here. a certain subset of the population are drawn to the homeopathic, pseudo-science nature of it.
It seems to me that atlas orthogonal adjustment is more of a real thing offered than just getting your neck twisted, then again as someone who probably needs that (I had whiplash many years ago) I have no idea if the places near me have the equipment for it (or x-ray stuff needed) so that along with paperwork/scheduling has stopped me.
Everyone will have different experiences. Going to a chiropractor helped me with my posture in the long term. After my first visit it was no longer uncomfortable to stand up straight. I used to have this lump in the back of my neck and whatever they did made that go away. I did initially go for back pain and I can't say if the visits helped with back pain in the long term but the adjustment did help me with my posture.
Do you still go? If not, how many times did you go?
I went nine times. I don't think I needed to keep going but I kept agreeing to the next appointment lol. My HSA covered it at least. Except for the first few appointments I'd go once a month. I don't plan on going again for now.
An osteopath is usually the best choice.
How about a doctor instead?
The full title of an osteopath is "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine." From a quick Google search, "An osteopath is a licensed physician who practices medicine using both conventional treatments and osteopathic manipulative medicine"
Having been to one, I found the manipulation to be unhelpful. She quickly zoomed into the trouble spot, but the treatment did nothing for me. But at least it didn't actively harm me. I later received proper medical treatment from a neurosurgeon and physical therapy, because that's what I needed instead of a manipulation.
Correct, they are Doctors of Chiropractic.
Unfortunately a lot of misinformation exists which has hurt the field.
Oddly, people have no problem shitting all over this profession but yet religiously trust Western medicine and pharmaceuticals... And people still die.
Maybe lead with facts instead of spreading FUD?
Fact: The original proponent of chiropractic claimed he learned it from a ghost
From Wikipedia: "There is not sufficient data to establish the safety of chiropractic manipulations."
Uh, yeah, having had several accidents resulting in vertebral subluxation or a rotated SI joint that was only corrected and relieved by chiropractors, whoever came up with that conclusion can fuck all the way off.
Thank you for sharing your story! While it's a great example of anecdotal evidence, the "whoever" that came up with these conclusions are called "scientists" who perform research based on scientific evidence. It's great that you feel better for having seen a chiropractor, but many do not.
That’s also anecdotal stories, and it’s not my imagination that after attempting numerous other methods, that chiropractors were the only ones who did anything except say to walk it off or offer painkillers. You can fuck off along with those scientists.
By the same logic, all the “real” medical practitioners whose efforts and advice had zero positive effect on those situations are also quacks, or whatever. Fortunately for them, I have more realistic experience and understanding than that.
The only funny part about this to me is that the only advice any “real” medical practitioner gave me that helped any of these situations was to refer me to a chiropractor, after prescribing painkillers to help tolerate it until I could see one.
Vertebral subluxation isn't a thing. Chiropractors made it up. You might have had a dislocation, but subluxation is oogy boogy words.
Chiropractors DO have some evidence that they can provide short term, immediate pain relief for back pain. However, physical therapy and exercise after an adjustment is necessary or you have to see a Chiro forever.
Also a PT or DO can do the same kinds of manipulations with an actual medical degree.
Orthopedic surgeon here
Vertebral subluxation is a real thing n depending on the level, can lead to paralysis, complete or partial or death. It is not oogy boogy.
After road accident, chiropractic manipulation might be the biggest reason for it.
Thanks, your interpretation is not required.
And you’re incorrect
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/whats-the-difference-between-shoulder-dislocation-and-subluxation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK559144/
edit: and if PTs and DOs are doing the same adjustments, then the adjustments are a legitimate therapy when done correctly, regardless of who is doing them, unless you’re saying PTs and DOs are also illegitimate. Your argument is nonsense.
This is a very north american opinion, which also happens to be very condescending in tone, while op explicitly dismiss commenters who disagree with them. The practices designated by the various terms, such as chiropractors, osteopath, physical therapists, etc. vary depending on the countries and contexts, especially in some european countries where chiropractors must answer to the same standards and regulations as the other medical professions. This should be taken into account.
Well regulated snake oil is still snake oil. Just cause a regulatory board says its relatively safe doesnt mean its actually effective. Chiropractory is no more effective than a good massage, and you know what if thats all they advertised it as then fine. But it aint theres a whole bunch of woo mixed into it.
They run the risk of injuring their customers, with the way that they “manipulate” the neck and spine.
There are people who can generally help those with back issues or whatnot, they’re called doctors.
That's just not true, regulations imply healthcare reimbursement, which implies strict control on the treatment and the practicians, because insurance companies hate paying.
Osteopathy was originally pseudoscientific quackery, but has long abandoned the woo crap that was not supported by medical evidence. Osteopathic medicine today is grounded firmly and exclusively in actual science.
Physical therapy is, and always has been, medical science based therapy.
Chiropractic therapy is founded upon disproven theories and requires no actual medical training. The industry regulates its own certifications, and chiropractors are taught a perverted concept of physiology.
According to “studies”, everything causes cancer and everything doesn’t cause cancer. Don’t pay too much attention to a wiki that could have easily been “doctored”.
I see you belong to the "Why bother checking sources when you can just disregard everything and believe whatever you want!" school of thought.
Very avantgarde of you!
You know what they say about assuming, so quit doing it.
YSK that Medical Doctors are also not Chiropractors. This is why the letters after their names are different. M.D. means Medical Doctor, and D.C. means Doctor of Chiropractic. The major differences in their educations being Surgery, and Drugs for the MDs, and Nutrition, Physical Therapy, Manual Therapy are studied more by DCs. Depending on licensure laws both can order imaging, laboratory testing, and prescribe massage or physical therapy. Also the MD will only have 3-7 minutes to spend with you, and the DC will have much more time to do intake, history, therapy, and to explain what is going on with you and what can be done to improve your situation. Here's a fun fact for ya, some of the injuries attributed to joint manipulation, and this is well documented, were from barbers, kung fu teachers, and yes, MDs and PTs who went to a weekend course in manipulation, instead of the numerous semesters of learning that a DC will have as part of their normal coursework.
@NataliePortland, what's your issue? Why do you care so much about this particular topic?
Yeah NataliePortland, why do you care that people are getting ripped off and, in some cases, injured or killed for no benefit? They're not even you, it makes no sense.
I could start spending my time bashing various professions, I suppose, but I've got better things to do. However, since you are obviously interesting in people being ripped off, injured or killed here's this, the first article that came up on search from PubMed:
Our prescription drugs kill us in large numbers
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25355584/Abstract
Our prescription drugs are the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer in the United States and Europe. Around half of those who die have taken their drugs correctly; the other half die because of errors, such as too high a dose or use of a drug despite contraindications. Our drug agencies are not particularly helpful, as they rely on fake fixes, which are a long list of warnings, precautions, and contraindications for each drug, although they know that no doctor can possibly master all of these. Major reasons for the many drug deaths are impotent drug regulation, widespread crime that includes corruption of the scientific evidence about drugs and bribery of doctors, and lies in drug marketing, which is as harmful as tobacco marketing and, therefore, should be banned. We should take far fewer drugs, and patients should carefully study the package inserts of the drugs their doctors prescribe for them and independent information sources about drugs such as Cochrane reviews, which will make it easier for them to say "no thanks".
It is a free article, so you can read the whole thing, if you wish to be better informed.
The second one is from US News and World Report:
Death by Prescription
https://health.usnews.com/health-news/patient-advice/articles/2016-09-27/the-danger-in-taking-prescribed-medicationsEnjoy.
I've been cracking nearly every joint in my body for my whole life. So, I understand that it can feel amazing when you get 10 good pops down your spine.
On two occasions (over 40 years) my neck was so stiff, it caused incredible pain to move it at all.
Both of those times, someone I know recommended a chiropractor. Each time, I went in for an initial appointment and a follow up, and every single time, I left feeling exactly as miserable as when I walked in the door.
The first guy karate chopped my neck, which made it hurt more for the rest of the day. And the second guy just put some electrodes on my back and left the room while the machine zapped me for ten minutes. Neither of them ever claimed to know what was wrong or how to fix it. They just said, "We can try this and see how you feel. 🤷🏻♂️"
I've seen no evidence that they can do anything more than what I was able to figure out with a chair in 4th grade.
They just said, “We can try this and see how you feel.
They know they're giving you a placebo. Sometimes it "works", other times it doesn't.