What's the deal with male loneliness?
What's the deal with male loneliness?
Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don't really know how to ask this question so I hope I'm making sense
if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
basically, a piece of toxic masculinity….
men are only allowed to display emotions of anger or mild happiness.
i think this is a big reason why sports are so popular… it’s more about camaraderie than anything else.
also why they like to get drunk and say “i love you man” and all that mushy stuff.in a nutshell: because they’re taught to be that way.
Ignore all that and be yourself, if you're around people that treat you that poorly you should find yourself new friends
Hence the loneliness epidemic.
if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
I don't care if "alpaha" males think I am a soyboy, but you ain't keeping a partner if she got the "ick"
And most women get the ick over random shit including something that they might perceive as unregulated emotions.
I think it's because people are overworked. No time for love, no time for friendship, sometimes not even enough time to take care of yourself properly.
Sex researchers Baumeister and Tice wrote about sexual economics.
"A heterosexual community can be analyzed as a marketplace in which men seek to acquire sex from women by offering other resources in exchange."
From an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense that women wouldn't want a partner that can't provide security for the couple when the woman would be vulnerable if pregnant/nursing.
Young men in particular have fewer resources of value to offer than at any time in most people's lives. To that point, it's not like young women are dating any better, so even if they are willing to be the sole provider, most are unable to do so.
With the traditional partnership which historically provided companionship out of the question, men are left yearning for female companionship.
Another point the researchers make, is that men will always yearn, while women have a generally easier time abstaining until conditions are right.
Gender division and masculinity is trained into us from the second our genitals are identified be it sonogram or at birth. From the colors, toys, media, to early childhood social pressures were pushed into one of two molds. If a boy interacts with a girl it's labelled as boyfriend girlfriend even if there's no romantic intent (because why would children have that?). But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there's a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you're able to question it you're so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it's a threat to people who haven't had to question it.
When you're emotionally isolated from yourself, and surrounded by others who are also emotionally isolated, you're not motivated to be around them since they won't fulfill your needs. Then, you realize you're also not comfortable enough to bridge the divide to people who are in touch with their own emotions. So all this hard work and you're only a few steps down the path to connection. Usually with little sense of where to go from there.
When you finally get to the point of diving in and expressing emotionally outward, it's easy to get wrapped with anxiety. You expect others to push you away, not because they will, most people respond well, but because you're even less oriented and more vulnerable than ever. Though i would argue less fragile.
Lots of other posts discussing things like whether other people in the age group are socially available, and lack of third spaces.
But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
Except for children with autism, I’d say. My mom couldn’t get me to be girly or feminine while I was growing up, I just did what made sense, sometimes that was a girly or feminine thing and other times not.
Maybe the patriarchy is an allistic people problem lol.
It always felt like between the ages of 12 - 18 (basically while you were in middle-/highschool) you need to get some sort of "seal of approval" from the other sex as a prove that you are relationship material. If you didn't get that you'll always be seen as somebody to stay away from.
I've heard a lot of times that those young relationships are completely inconsequential, but I think it's those lack of consequences that serve best as a social teaching tool on how to recognize and have an actual meaningful relationship when you're older.
And I feel like this experience is exactly what a lot of men and women are struggling to get. They have trouble finding partners and if they do they are not good partners themselves. Which is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, you are deemed bad relationship material so you'll become bad relationship material.
I recognized this about myself. At my age the only people left are either young divorcees, people with small children or people that are like me - single for a good reason. There will be expectations towards me that I'm neither aware of nor will probably be able to fulfill. Dating well below my age range is neither something I can pull off nor something that I am comfortable with. So I'm forever stuck in this weird limbo of wanting a relationship but knowing that whoever will be my first partner will probably not have a great time with me.
I think this is also the root of a lot of toxic behavior. People turn to sources of knowledge to at least get some idea about what an relationship is about. But all they find is the Cosmopolitans and the Andrew Tate's who prey upon peoples' loneliness and desperation for profit. I understand that nobody wants to be a teacher, I understand that nobody wants to throw away years of their life so that the next person will maybe have a better time with your partner.
Ali Wong had a good joke about this in her special with something along the lines off not wanting a divorce because then she'd have to teach the next guy how to please her. Taylor Tomilison also had one about wanting to call her ex during sex just so he could explain to the next guy how he did it for her. I know those are just jokes, but it think there is a bit of truth in them.
I'm just autistic\BAD and indecisive and had a romantic trauma at school and my environment (mom) is not mentally well at all (right now it's not worse than hoarding and forgetting everything, but it was).
However, with my looks it's somehow enough for me to just be kinda clean and shaved and in a public place for very pleasant young women (and I suppose much kinder than that girl from school) to try to talk to me with possible romantic perspective (which I usually realize after the conversation ends).
Except it just doesn't work, either I don't understand them, or I'm petrified and don't know what to do or say, or I postpone interpreting the conversation to somewhere late, or I'm ashamed of the mess where I live and showing my life to that person if it goes somewhere.
So - sometimes it's just about never having the courage to go forward. Not about other people discarding you.
EDIT: ah, also about BAD - in the mania phase one might slowly build up background dreams about some women one knows, and when trying to make a decision in regards to the woman they are really communicating with, to feel ashamed both before everyone touched by those dreams and before that woman ; I guess some people are fine with that, some even have open relationships, but this is not a common thing.
I know the feeling too well of not having a place to invite somebody to. But I always told myself that if it ever came down to it, I hopefully could convince the two halfbrained adults that call themselves my parents to behave for a few hours. But in the end it didn't really matter because it never came down to it anyway.
A long while ago there was a post by a distressed young woman who struggled to enter relationships. I really connected with what she said but of course had no answer for her either. But what I've noticed is that all comments completely missed the point of the question.
I used a casino as a metaphor for dating which I think applies pretty well. Dating is essentialy that - no matter how much effort you put in, nothing is ever guaranteed or given, it all essentially comes down to luck.
What the vast majority of people hear when somebody is asking for dating advice is that they play the game but lack any success. They then give you advice on how to play your cards right, how to increase your chances, how to cut you losses, etc. But they don't understand it's not about how to win the table, but how to get into the casino in the first place. Not what to I tell the dealer at the table, but what do I tell the bouncer at the door?
It's not about the rejection I'm facing, its about the fact that my mere approach is seen as an insult. It's the audacity to ask to be included in something that is considered a normal part of life for others.
There's a disorder, I forgot what it's called but it makes people feel especially uneasy around psychopaths, even if the psychopaths themselves are extremely good at hiding their psychopathy. Basically those people can pick up on queues nobody else, not even the psychopaths themselves are aware of. This is essential how I and many others feel, like there's something about us that we are unaware of but everybody else picks up on that tells them to keep their distance. Something that is outside of our control. We could have every trait that would make anybody other than us attractive, yet we would still end up being alone because at some point nature pointed her finger at us at said "Yes, but not you".
I understand that nobody wants to be a teacher,
Well actually that's not true. There's a lot of people who are willing to put up with younger people/inexperienced people, but these people have difficulty too because of ... reasons.
Male loneliness has probably always been a thing. Lonely men were expected to work difficult jobs, or fight in wars for kings, or just kill themselves.
Some women would have experienced similar issues, along with probably greater rates of sexual abuse, etc.
I think there have always been quite a few people with shit lives throughout history; it's just that society doesn't want to acknowledge these people. People who are doing fine in life want to pretend that life is fair, when actually it isn't.
Toxic masculinity makes men feel like they need to be strong independent and suffer silently.
As for the other side of the coin, i would guess the Women Are Wonderful Effect.
I don't even think it's an exclusively male thing. It's just getting harder and harder to meet people and mingle. Men are just feeling it harder and sooner.
It's harder to meet people now. I think part of it is:
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That people used to be bored. You would make entertainment where you could find it, and two bored people can rapidly get entertained. Now you have a phone that makes you not bored, and de-incentivizes face to face interaction.
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There used to be more places where people interacted. Masons, elk lodge, unions, they would often serve alcohol at events, for dirt cheap. They were known as third places, somewhere other than work and home. One thing I hear from a lot of smokers is that the smoking areas are where people hang out to talk, and they do. It's where conversations happen at a club. It gives you something to do when you're not talking, a reason to stand somewhere close to people, and a perfect excuse to jump into a conversation. It's kinda infuriating that it also shaves two minutes off your life -_-.
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People have less time. Younger generations are working multiple jobs, gigs with unpredictable hours, often times having commutes of an hour which turns a 9 to 5 into an 8 to 6, and spending all their vacation hours on the shit that has to be done on a weekday like the DMV or the like. How are you supposed to make a friend when schedules differ so much that a spreadsheet is required to make it work?
IDK; my partner has met ppl that have become very close friends at their workplace. I've become more and more isolated as I've worked as an adult, to the point where I have zero close friends.
I hope to fix that this year though; I'll be trying to get my handgun and rifle instructor cert so I can work with the Pink Pistols and Operation Blazing Sword, and connect with my local SRA chapter. E.g., try to do something good in my community, and also meet people.
Male culture also tends to avoid building real relationships and hiding their feelings, and depending on how they look people are scared to be around them. Effort needs to be taken for most men to unlearn toxic traits of the past, which it seems like younger kids today are getting better at avoiding, but there's definitely a handicap for most men here.
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Here’s a theory. I’m sure it has lots of holes in it.
Male loneliness has always been a thing. In cultures where it isn’t/wasn’t, there was a strong family relationship and older men modelling how to relate to others.
To hide from loneliness, men were able to join clubs, hang out at pubs, volunteer, or bury themselves in work.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
What’s changed is that it is now socially OK to talk about loneliness (at least in online forums like this), so more people are aware it’s an issue.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
That is glossing over a lot of context, a big one being that club membership is down (that's a big point of Bowling Alone). I would not be surprised if many clubs relocated or shut down due to low membership, especially after raising membership fees. Or y'know that they were already a middleclass thing, thus canaries.
Pubs are also going to rely on prices, but the most social ones likely are accessible by free public transit or are located in a walkable/mixed-use area (particularly cities designed before+not-bulldozed-for cars).
I don't think this is about awareness, especially when most people have less friends and less (or no) social engagement.
I think you may have missed the point I was making though— clubs and other pastimes didn’t make people less lonely; they only distracted people from their loneliness. Today the same distractions can be found via social media, so instead of all those other activities, people just need a phone.
But the anonymizing nature of social media means people feel more free to discuss their loneliness when they do self-reflect.
I think that many of the approaches that tried to explain it are mostly dangerous.
Like blaming it on gender norms, and toxic masculinity, the most common answer. Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
I think a more neutral approach is needed to explain it. Instead of trying to take some explanation that fits your political views and then try to push it as a solution to the problem, the problem should be investigated by itself, and once an explanation is reached accept it even if it does not fit your political mindset.
One hint is that most people that feel alone lack a romatic relationship, the most common approach seems to be that "nah romatic relationships are not needed and we will not even consider them part of the problem". When it's pretty obviously that the lack of this kind of relationships is fundamental in male loneliness.
Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
It sounds like you completely miss the application of the explanation itself. The phrase toxic masculinity describes the social norms and expectations that men act a certain way. Society imposes gender norms on people such that those who don't comply are at the highest risk of being shunned or ostracized, and having trouble making social connections. And the social pressure may make men act in ways they wouldn't otherwise, so that they grow up poorly equipped to be introspective and understand their own wants/desires/emotions/drives/motivations.
Toxic masculinity tells men what they're not allowed to be, and tells men what they must be. Both sides of that same coin are toxic to men, and by extension those that the men interact with.
Feels more like an explanation looking for a question that otherwise. Explanation doesn't seems to emerge from the problem, but from the solution.
Again not talking about the main issue that every men that feel alone will tell you as the root of their problem:
-Lack of a relationship.
-Lack of friendships due other friends being invested in their relationships.
I haven't meet a man that accused male loneliness because "others expect me to act manly" or because "I don't know what I want because toxic masculinity". Toxic masculinity may cause anxiety, discomfort or things like that in not complying men, but I don't see it causing lack of romantic relationships. The cause of the former must be other.
The whole "men are wrong for wanting to be loved and they should be happy being alone" feels a little too much invalidating on people's wants and desires.
While sexism and male toxicity is bad I don't see how ending that would improve in anything male loneliness as it's solution does not address what's making many males feel lonely.
I do think the loneliness epidemic affects men more than women, and would argue it's sexism harming men. On average, women are more likely to reach out, talk to people and family will check in on them if they are alone. Like, my husband (who is more outgoing than me and better at keeping up with friends) will call his mom or go up to see her, but leaves his dad alone unless he literally asks for something. Because men are taught it's shameful to not be self sufficient, but women are taught to look for help if we need it.
Obviously this is not a straight gender split but on average it still plays out that way.
Patriarchy hurts everyone
Traditional masculinity dictates that men don’t share their feelings (with the exception of anger and aggression because that’s not a feeling that’s just being manly). Sadness, despair, loneliness, depression all will be commonly bottled up and left untreated which leads to deep-seated feelings of isolation. The cure has to be a change in social norms, including decoupling the ideas of being socially vulnerable with being feminine.
This is a gross generalization of the issue but it definitely describes my experience with it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. To offer an anecdote, a locally beloved small business owner was recently diagnosed with cancer and was hospitalized. I asked one of his male employees if they're passing around a hat to help cover his bills, or at least signing a card. The guy laughed and said "That's a question for one of the girls. Men don't do that kind of shit."
It made me so sad. This guy was fighting for his life, and one of the men he's closest with acted like he didn't give a shit.
I am a bit confused why would an employee collect money from other employees for their "owner"
This is a bad example since your employer is your enemy. No adult man should ever be caught giving away hard earned money like that.
Too many cars. No more third place.
This is basically it. It costs money to hang out with people IRL, everytime, all because of cars. We are all spread out so far now, except in a handful of places. Even without factoring in cars, the amount of activities that people can do for free or cheap is dwindled to basically nothing. This is simplistic, but the reality is no one can really afford real friends anymore.
I would posit that the internet and abundant screen entertainment contributed to killing third places far more than cars. The US has had a car culture for a very long time. (I'm not saying that makes it a good thing.)
Maybe. But if people had the sqme amoubt of screen time and wqlked or biked, or took public transit there would be more forced interaction than there is in car culture.
I think they go hand in hand. And right now we got both.
What's "third place"?
In sociology, the third place refers to the social surroundings that are separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. Examples of third places include churches, cafes, bars, clubs, libraries, gyms, bookstores, hackerspaces, stoops, parks, theaters, among others
Places that aren't home or work. Social places, like bars.
The colloquial "third place" is, as I understand it, a (usually) public place OUTSIDE of Home or Work where people can meet, hangout, play, or just exist without the expectation of spending money or being productive in some way. Examples would be Parks, Libraries, old-timey Public Houses and Cafes, Playgrounds, Forests and Wilderness within walking distance, and more.
Car culture killed a lot of that by removing the ability to reasonably walk places outside major metro areas, as businesses relocated to cities, and because they straight up increased the fatality rate for walking substantially. Internet Culture also killed it since you can just talk to your buddies through the Demon Rectangle instead of meeting IRL.
Others have explained it (places where social interaction is the primary intent - not home and not work) but I'll add - old European cities (and most smaller towns) have some sort of public square. Many have lasted to this day and are still used. We can still build them, we but our chosen form of urbanization isn't that conducive to it so we don't. In North America in the 80 and into the 90s, malls we're 3rd place. Then they started aggressively going after loitering in malls since simply sitting in a mall doesn't produce economic activity. Many malls died and many are still dying. Those that survived achieved the - nobody goes there to chill anymore. Just to buy what they need, maybe eat, and then leave. Nobody plans to "meet at the mall" anymore.
Bar culture is still very much alive but I think people are less inclined to go to those places alone now.
10 dollar drinks and DUIs will do that
Funny you should phrase it like that.
My uncle is a machinist specializing in automotive engine repair and modification. Over dinner last month, he mentioned that he's used to seeing middle age customers for hot rod engine builds, midlife crisis "Always wanted to do this" kind of guys, but lately he's been seeing men in their teens and twenties come in wanting heads ported and polished and shit like that.
They're not spending money on women because women have made themselves impossible to want, so young men are turning their attention to things like cars.
women have made themselves impossible to want
No sure what this mean... There is never lack of demand for pussy. It is always supply constrained ever since people figure how to trade
With that being said, yound adult men generally no market value since they have no status which is a key in getting with women. Status is linked to class but that's just a part of it.
Oh, too many cars! Absolutely, makes sense....
How much time do you willingly spend in public interacting with others?
There was a lot more of it happening before society required everyone to have personal transportation.
I'm an introvert so I am at home, work, or errands. I probably would talk to a lot more strangers if I had to use public transport and it wasn't so expensive to do anything fun in public.
Culture of excessive individuality and independence plus macho culture
Lack of intergenerational teaching and connections to help kids mature when growing up
Macho culture existed long before the loneliness. It's a different kind of macho culture now that is detrimental.
Previous generations had less destructive outlets for machismo than boys of today. Being part of a sports team meant that you had an outlet and a group that you shared common goals with.
I think maybe those words are true, but they are so generic they don't say anything to me.
I think women has changed due to social media, and that's causing the men loneliness.
Men that have been captured by the "alpha" and "masculinity" culture don't realize that it makes them fucking radioactive. They are literally the reason why women choose the bear. Boys thinking that they have to be hyperbolic, over-aggressive, possessive, manipulative assholes in order to be a "man" are the exact reason that they are lonely.
These men don't have a god given right to just "have" a girlfriend.
I'm confused. Are women on social media interfering on man-to-man friendships?
Huh??? We’ve been uncommunicative, miserable fucks for much longer than the internet has been around.
Your first hint that this is a naive take is that you're brushing off a societal issue to a single, external factor.
No, male culture has changed far more due to propaganda, etc.
There's a few factors working together to cause it. There's really two main ones: pressure to have sex and romantic connection, and an inability to be able to make those connections.
There's tons and tons of pressure out there about being in a relationship and having sex. In modern day, a good example is Andrew Tate and the like, directly linking your self worth to having sex. Back when I was a male teenager during the days of rage comics and advice animals, it was memes about the friend zone. The core idea is the same, being alone is something to be ashamed and upset about. Being rejected is something that reflects badly upon you as a person. Young men are constantly being bombarded with messaging about how being a man revolves around sex and romance, and lacking these things makes you less of a man. In addition, so much media portrays sex both as this amazing thing on a pedestal and as something that's not just commonplace but as something that everyone's expected to be doing.
So young men are believing that everyone except them are all in relationships and/or fucking all the time, and believing that them not doing those things makes worth less as a human being.
The other problem is actually making romantic or otherwise meaningful connections. So much more socializing is online these days, and there are a lot fewer women on the internet than men. It's difficult to make organic connections with single women online, as random social media is by far mostly male and more direct closer friend groups tend to be made of single men and people in relationships (this is very arbitrary and circumstancial, it's just what I've noticed). So, your odds of finding a single and compatible friend of a friend of a friend online aren't great, and dating apps are complete trash for pretty much anything other than gay hookups. So, there's not really a way for many young men to find romantic partners. Straight up hookups are easier, especially if your standards aren't too high, but it's an area a lot of young men aren't socially comfortable with because it's not something they've done a lot of, which makes everything much harder.
In the end, if there wasn't so much pressure to be dating and having sex, then the difficulty of doing so in the modern day wouldn't matter so much.
Personally, I've basically only had sex with men, because it's so much more straightforward and the dating pool isn't crazy lopsided. Though that's at an end now too, because I've transitioned too much to be appealing to gay men anymore and haven't transitioned nearly enough to be appealing to straight men or gay women.
So young men are believing that everyone except them are all in relationships and/or fucking all the time, and believing that them not doing those things makes worth less as a human being.
I just want to add that, in virtually every online discussion I've seen about the dynamic between men and women, if a man says something incel-ish, or otherwise not popular, there will be somebody (almost always a woman) who will fire back a retort like, "yeah, but no woman wants to be with you anyway," (I haven't seen it on Lemmy, which is wonderful.)
There it is: Your opinion, and by extension your worth as a person, is based on your ability to have sex. Is it any wonder that men think that, after being explicitly informed so?
yeah, but no woman wants to be with you anyway,
They would rather be with a bear in the woods!
You make very good points also to add women in online spaces have incentives to pretend to be male or be ambiguous and not bring attention that they are women online to reduce the harassment they get. I'm pulling numbers out of the air but I feel 10% the internet that is male are assholes or children that don't have any social skills yet and the other 90% get lumped in with them because we don't reach out at all as to not come off as creeps like the other 10%. So you don't hear about the polite respectful ones.
My hypothesis for this comes from the fact that most men I meet in real life are polite social people that respect women with about 10% being weird assholes. I also don't blame women being guarded of all men as that 10% are true nightmare. I mean if there was a 10% chance a strange man you meet out in public was going to be Jason Voorhees. I would mace every man that came up to me as well. That's how those assholes ruin it for everyone. Well except the grifrers that make it worse that is.
Also I'm married but we met online before tinder broke dating sites. So take what I say with a grain of salt just from an old man that sees the struggle of young people of all genders go through and I have empathy for them.
Seeing Lemmy's reaction to the bear made me want to crawl under a rock to be honest, so many people demonstrating that they're exactly the reason why women don't feel safe. A lot more than 10% of men on the internet are weird assholes, they just mask it well until they feel insulted. I've had a cis woman friend have to change her screen name because she'd occasionally get clocked and harassed, and a trans friend is really split on the progress she's making with her voice, because now she's also getting harassed when using voice chat in games.
Sorry mostly unrelated tangent, it just feels like gender relations have been backsliding
I can't really answer/reply to most of your comment but there is something about the last paragraph that I can respond to:
What about bi-/pansexual men? They exist [1][2] and there will be many that are attracted to people in between gender( expression)s.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PansexualityIf I've met any/interacted with any/they've run across my profile on dating/hookup apps and they've been interested in me, they haven't expressed it. Certainly not saying people who might be interested in me don't exist, just that I haven't come across any who are. Lol I know bi and pan people exist, I'm one of them
The atomization of society. The process of a society breaking down into smaller, isolated units, where individuals are self-interested and self-sufficient. It can lead to a feeling of being alone even when surrounded by people.
I was thinking about it this morning.
Look at Beatle-mania or Spice Girl-mania.
Back in the day, 100 million people were aware of one big thing and it brought them together.
Today with the internet, you've got a million different 'big things' each with 100 fans.
Btw, It's a lot more pronounced here on the internet. Since it's a filter bubble. If you dive into the real world, you'll find a lot of males also have healthy lives, a lot of hobbies, they're going out with friends, playing football once a week etc. I mean it's certainly there, and a big issue in society. All I want to say is, don't just look at some social media and draw conclusions from that. The perspective here is heavily skewed and making it look more desperate than it is.
I think there is a lot of wisdom here. I'm old, many of my meaningful relationships were formed before three was an internet. Now I use online tools to stay in touch with friends who are friends I have interacted with face-to-face, not people know solely online.
That's not to say meaningful relationships cannot be owned online. I have met a number of people IRL who I originally met playing Football Manager or on XBox Live.
But online relationships are not a substitute for real face-to-face interactions.
I tell people that making friends needs to be intentional. It takes work and commitment.
Toxic gender norms hurt everyone.
I think this is exacerbated by certain people online who want to capitalize on the issue and scapegoat others (see the manosphere and how they talk about feminism) instead of actually addressing the problem
Edit: a little plug for https://lemmy.ca/c/mensliberation
I don't know about the others but for me it's because I'm shy as fuck and kind of insecure.
Sending hugs. We've got your back. 😁
Thank you!
🫂
The topic is multifacedted and I cant pretend to understand it fully, but to speak of some aspects as I understand them
There is a large gap between societal and cultural expectations of men, and the financial and realities for everone at the moment.
One part of societal expectations of men is that they expected to be independent, capable of getting and holding a job that pays well enough to buy a car, own a house, etc. The current reality is that many men are in debt after a university degree, have a hard time finding a job because 99% of applications get rejected outright, and get paid significantly less accounting for inflation and costs compared to their predecessors. It is impossible for the average person to afford a house on the typical wages these days without already having a significant other or by pooling resources. This has led to a large number of people who live at home and have less money to spend on things like going out.
I say this as someone who is fairly well off given my job and field, I get paid ~2x what some of my friends do and I could not afford a house within a 2hr drive of my workplace. I live at home with my parents and it fucking sucks.
Another aspect of bad cultural expectations is that men are expected to be cold unfeeling lone wolf types, and the idea that any sort of male bonding is "gay" which has caused people to spend less time doing things with friends. Men end up with smaller social circles and with less friends. With increasing costs and long working hours, they end up with little time to actually hang out together.
An additional aspect of the failure of cultural expectations to adjust the need to place blame. Blame has fallen on the individual man for being, among other things, lazy good for nothings, who are weak, ugly, etc.
If we look at the US, they have been abandoned by the left, both by the democrats (e.g. economy is fine, must be your fault), by the feminists (told to be vulnerable but called weak for being vulnerable, shunned at every instance because "sounds like a you problem" and "figure it out yourself") and by their own parents who had an easier time.
This is part of why the manosphere became so popular. Men have been told for so long that they were the problem, many of them still just boys, whereas right wing pundits like jordan peterson, andrew tate, joe rogan, etc gave them targets to redirect blame. An excuse for "actually, its not my fault I cant find a date, its the woman's fault," etc. Note that this is not my personal belief. It also gives them a sense of community and people talk to that actually listen and make them feel heard and justified in their struggles.
The blame game has caused us to ignore several important systematic factors. The rise of individualism, stagnant wages relative to inflation and costs, and growing wealth inequality, as well as the erosion of community and mens safety nets are all major factors which have decreased mens mental health and increased male loneliness.
I’m not sure how useful the term “male loneliness” is. There’s a crisis of loneliness in every sex and gender, it’s a side effect of capitalism.
EDIT: spelling error.
Commodification of human interaction, enshitification of social spaces, environmental degradation. Stagnant wage growth vs record profits and increasing cost of living. Yeah that's the profit motive at work. The unwillingness of most to see it, that's the propaganda in service of the profit motive.
Capitalism is responsible for loneliness now??
No, loneliness is a side effect of being human. You think there aren’t lonely people living under socialism? Under communism? Or any other types of governments and socioeconomic systems?
For fuck’s sake. When people blame everything on capitalism, it dilutes the water of any real argument you may eventually have.
Capitalism absolutely contributes to the loneliness crisis. Firstly, it creates a culture of individualism, making it all about “every person for themselves” rather than fostering a sense of community or collective well-being. Stable, long-term jobs that used to provide social connections are being replaced by gig work and precarious employment, leaving people isolated and too burned out to build meaningful relationships outside work.
On top of that, capitalism pushes this idea that happiness comes from products instead of building connections. Social experiences are even commodified now—like dating apps and paid meetups—so relationships feel more like transactions. Cities, designed for profit, don’t help either. You’ve got people crammed into apartments, commuting for hours, all in their individual cars or with their headphones on, and barely interacting with their neighbours. Public spaces that encourage connection are underfunded or replaced with malls and shopping centres.
And then there’s the way capitalism shapes cultural perception of mental health. Capitalism treats loneliness and isolation as individual problems, with solutions like therapy apps and self-help books (ie. profitable industries) rather than addressing the systemic issues that cause them. Even social media, which could foster connection, is driven by algorithms that push engagement over genuine interaction, leaving people feeling more disconnected after hours of scrolling.
At the end of the day, capitalism is profit over people. It’s no surprise that in a world focused on production, consumption, and competition, we’re all feeling so alone. The link between capitalism and alienation is well studied in social science.
You have to admit the "leftist" ideologies tend to be about working together and supporting each other, and the "right wing" ideologies about encouraging individual accomplishments, though?
You can only think that way if you stop at the most superifical point of discussion and perception.
One way capitalism increases loneliness is with the job economy. We work too much, to blindly increase "profits" for someone who doesn't care about us. We are restless and tired when we get home, going out costs too much (because of the same corporations pushing the economy and legislation that makes life always the more expensive) so we don't go out the same.
Obviously capitalism is but one of the factors of modern loneliness, but it is heavily intertwined with a political will of weakening our resolve and hope and companionship.
When things go a certain way, you need only follow who benefits the most from it, and you will almost surely find the cause for that ill
Patriarchy harms and isolates men first so that they become the monsters that women fear.
The same way women are expected to look and act a certain way, so is for men, with different criteria.
Not by people per se, but by a sort of cultural subconscious, like a chaos creature from warhammer it exists because people believe in it, not necessarily because they agree with it. Everyone fears it, so most comply.
That's why it is so important to destroy the social gender binary, the idea that we all neatly fit in well defined labels that apply to our body and mind. It's just complete bullshit and internalizing it is one of the many ways this system traps us in its oppression
Absolutely agree.
One of the ways we've gone wrong so far is that people do need some guidance at least on what is possible and acceptable.
Just saying to young people "Be whatever you want to be" is unhelpful and confusing.
Role models of all kinds and representation matter so people who are figuring these things out as they grow have inspiration, ideas, can see who they are reflected in the world around them so they can put a name to the feeling.
If we can do that without shaming, blaming or excluding then people can find their way without the need of gender binary.
Caveat, not everyone is a suitable role model. Some people are warnings, not examples.
There was a meme the other day about how Aragorn from lotr is the kind of male role model men need. Kind, shows his emotions, strong without being cruel.
Never don't downvote posts with the word "patriarchy" in them. The right says "DEI hire" the left says "Patriarchy."
Except if you did just the slightest bit of research you'd know patriarchy is an anthropological and well defined phenomenon not based on prejudice but on research of oppression throughout millennia, while the other is just an excuse to be intolerant.
This kind of false equivalences really show people's disinterest in going deeper with their judgment. There's nothing comparable about the two other than widespread use
Male loneliness is likely partially due to the same reason we are all here; this online outlet for social endorphins is why you were not building up a deficit over the last week and felt the motivation to finally call that person you were thinking about this whole time. That person was a passing thought, and the endorphins hit you might have received is ultimately less than you got from the austere but consistent dose you get from social engagement online.
The only problem is that you are not creating a meaningful personal social network in real life. When you really need such a network in practice, you face the reality of no one to turn to, or less depth and meaning to such connections. Real people are also complex and you must face the reality that no one fits your echo chamber bubble like a place like this. If you act like a down vote or stupid hot take comes across here to people in the real world... you find yourself back here with less options in the future.
This is so true. We are living in the novel "Brave New World"
People online can be fun and can't hurt you
Don't get disabled and have a place like this as your only outlet to connect with other humans. Anonymous and mob like negativity, especially from misunderstandings, can be hurtful when sharing some part of yourself or the only time you've said anything to anyone in a day or more from within a prison of loneliness you cannot escape.
Ah, I guess I'll need to tell my teenage friend who never made it to adulthood after feeling trapped and ruined when an older man started an online relationship that isolated her from her family to... fucking grow a pair or something?
Healthy mature people can exist online in a positive manner. Not everyone is an adult and not every adult is mature. The internet can be a dangerous place and it's unhelpful to try and dismiss that.
Male loneliness is as much a symptom of the "suck it up" toxic masculinity that pervades your comment as it is the content of your comment.
Men are taught to be stoic, to rely only on themselves, to suck it up and get on with it, and for some, they're trying desperately to conform to something that seems frighteningly easy for others. They're expending all their energy on that unnatural - for them - attempt to conform rather than being able to simply exist as they might otherwise be.
Your instinct might be to attack me for pointing this out. That's toxicity at play. Look at yourself.
But I haven't made my main point yet. It's this same toxicity and trying to "be a man" that turns men into the monsters that women fear, and so it becomes a vicious cycle of negativity breeding loneliness and on and on.
My advice would be "Do better. And if you can't do better, do your best. And whatever you do, minimise harm."
I choose to abstract and never attack anyone, while you insult, and make assumptions about my disposition going as far as assigning them an ideology and framework that seems repugnant and baseless to me. I see and feel lots of projection and bias, but if causing a disabled person in social isolation harm makes you feel better, I'm glad you had a better day. The comments seem so randomly unrelated it feels like you are possibly a misinformation agent of some sort.
As is echoed a lot in this entire post of replies: therapy isn’t really mentioned here. And that might be a key when it comes to male mental and emotional health.
I think therapy helps as a remediation, but it’s not preventive nor does it fully solve the problem because ultimately it’s transactional and paying someone to listen is fully different from finding someone who listens to you that you also want to listen to.
That’s the thing though: if you’re having trouble finding someone who wants to listen to you, the problem might possibly be you. let’s just say it’s not out of the realm of possibility. But if you are happy to sit there refusing therapy with circular logic: you’re your own problem and all this is is you’ve found a way to self sustain that cover and you’ve convinced yourself. Fair enough. That’s your decision,
therapy is really for those who are ready to admit they are unhappy with how things are(and willing to realize they play a part in their unhappiness) and more open to tearing down those old toxic behaviours to build something more engaging that might do better at relationships .
If you don’t see yourself in that description, then you’re right. Therapy would do nothing for you.
Explain to me in actual words what a therapist is going to accomplish.
"Doctor doctor you've got to do something! Third spaces don't exist, there's no loitering signs everywhere you'll be arrested for standing around talking, everyone my age had kids and their lives fell off, bars charge $9.50 for an ounce of bourbon and expect a tip and they play Nickelback loud enough to be heard from the moon so I've just been sitting at home alone drinking diet soda and playing Subnautica over and over again and while I utterly love this game it's getting a little stale and Below Zero isn't...good at all? So I guess I'm a little bored."
"...Here's a prescription for an SSRI, that'll be $900."
As someone who works in mental health I'm actually with you but first I need to clarify that therapists don't prescribe meds, psychiatrists do. Therapists usually have at least a bachelor's usually a masters in one of a couple non-medical (or better stated, medical-adjacent) fields. A psychiatrist is a medical doctor who completed full medical school and a residency specializing in psychiatry. Even a doctorate in psychology is not a medical doctor. A therapist is going to talk to you and provide one of two basic functions: allowing you to vent / express your emotions to a completely supportive person, and teach social skills and emotional intelligence. Psychology = talking, psychiatry = drugs. This is an important distinction because while talk therapy is often more helpful than medications for certain disorders, it's a lot more expensive to pay for an hour human emotional presence than having a doctor (even with their more specialized knowledge) listen for fifteen minutes then decide which neurotransmitters are maybe involved the most and picking a chemical from a list to throw at the problem and see what sticks.
Now even with therapy being more helpful for certain things, I don't think it's actually a good solution (or again, better-stated, a good long term solution). It's definitely going to help with this kind of problem because the core issue is largely behavioral, not neurochemical, but first of all it's putting our emotional wellness in the hands of capitalism which is... terrible. I cannot express how much that idea terrifies me. But second of all, as someone who's actually had 300h of therapy for a personality disorder, it starts to lose efficacy over time due to a lack of true emotional intimacy.
Once you know the DBT manual front to back plus 100h of general psycheducation on pavlov and maslow, they're not really doing skills teaching anymore, they're just listening to you bitch. And listening to you bitch is... fine, especially if you wouldn't have a safe place to do that at all otherwise. But even that starts to lose efficacy when you start feeling like they have no idea what you're actually talking about. I realized this recently when I had an extremely stressful experience at work and the therapist was like,"yeah that sucks" but my work friends were all like,"oh yeah she was waaay out of line you did exactly the right thing" because my therapist knew my account, but my coworkers knew more sides of the story and still sided with me and that just... meant a lot more. Bitching also never actually solves the core issue if there is one, a bigger part of that situation was some underlying problems with my workload that my boss was refusing to address, and at a certain point even my coworkers listening to me bitch wasn't cutting it either because whether they listened or not I knew I was going to get my head shoved right back under the water the second I walked back out on my unit and until that issue is actually fixed nothing will ever truly even touch the dread that is constantly hovering over you.
And finally the other core issue is that true emotional connection, the kind humans truly crave, is reciprocal. A therapist has boundaries to maintain that are actually pretty critical to the function of the therapeutic process. The relationship being a completely one-sided support is the whole point. It prevents the abuse of the relationship by someone who knows both more about the person and more about human behavior in general to a person who is emotionally vulnerable for one reason or another. Having those boundaries preserves what therapy does the most good for. But that also means it's going to feel hollow after a while because in the long term what people truly need is reciprocity so they can feel the satisfaction of also helping the other person (in more ways than a monetary transaction). Therapy can help you learn more about how to build those relationships, but it can't replace those relationships, not in the long term anyway. I even see this in my own patients, I'm having to constantly reinforce boundaries that they're pushing not out of malice but just because they're instinctually craving a deeper connection than I can safely offer for either of our sakes.
As a tangential note, another problem we run into in men's mental health in particular, is the lack of men working in mental health. I'm kinda sorta trans but I was raised female which means I often lack the life experience to truly speak to a lot of men's issues. We really need a lot more men who have successfully navigated some of these problems to take the lead towards better men's mental health because they know what really needs to happen and what skills need to be taught. I got into my field in an effort to improve care for personality disorders because I saw what was lacking and felt it was important to provide my inside perspective on a poorly understood issue and something similar needs to happen for men. Another problem with that though is that men's difficulty connecting with other men can often keep them from seeking support from a male professional. I've had lots of men say they're more comfortable opening up to me but then they start asking about romantic and sexual topics which a) can be a huuuge boundary issue and b) I often just don't have the information they REALLY need on the topic, which is how to approach the issues specifically as a man. But a lot of that could also (again) be alleviated by having more men working in mental health to increase the odds that someone will happen to create the necessary rapport (/professionally vibe with) with the patient.
Anyway I think you're right, especially about the thirdspaces, but I do worry that people will be somewhat negatively reactive to the way you've expressed it here. When I've stated as much with this little background, even stating that my perspective is informed by extensive personal AND professional experience, I've had pretty much every layperson getting out their pitchforks.
So paying for a "friend" by the hour?
Someone's never been to therapy!
There are multiple reasons for this. First of all due to the fact that a lot of infrastructure is based around cars society actively looses places for people to meet and hang out(I think this effect even has a name, but I'm not sure). Lack of places to interact with other people, and therefore lack of social interactions, causes a rise in loneliness. Then theres the problem with how men are supposed to act. We get told, that we shouldn't "ask out" women in every day life, since its now considered creepy. For me this causes a certain type of being not sure where and when it is OK to ask someone out leading to me not doing it since I don't want to get labeled as a creep. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to blame women for the male loneliness epidemic and there devinetively are a lot of men beeig creeps and asking someone out in absolutely the wrong situations, but this is something that needs to be said to understand the male loneliness epidemic. This also causes dating to take place online. Now the problem is, that online dating fucking sucks. Dating apps are useless, as long as you don't want to sell your kidney to them, since they want you to keep using it. If dating apps were somewhat usefull they'd be out pf buisness quite fast.
While I agree about third places, I think it's interesting that you then focused on dating.
Loneliness means lack of friendships and family ties as well. I think a lot of men are focused on dating, and even when they are in a relationship, they use that as their only source of socialization outside the workplace. A lot of the barriers that exist for one are true for the rest as well, it is hard to make friends nowadays as an adult! There are so many people that stop trying, and it isn't surprising.
Referenced in a lower comment, but that loss of a meet and hangout place is often called a "third place," as opposed to work or home. The show Cheers is a depiction of a third place in that it's a place where "everybody knows your name" and the norm is staying and chatting, not spending a few bucks and running out.
There are some interesting suppositions about how this loneliness became more and more endemic with the decline in bowling leagues. People, men in particular, just have fewer regular hangout activities and so get more and more lonely. Things like bowling leagues, lodges, and the corner bar all were meeting spots to socialize and they have declined or morphed over the years, losing their original social role.
I was thinking the other day there's probably a pretty straight line between Match group owning so many dating apps, men's unhappiness, and violence.
Like the apps create the illusion that you can meet someone and be happy, but their primary goal is to make money. They don't try very hard to introduce you to good matches. They also haven't solved the experience from the woman's point of view. So men feel like they're just shouting into the void, that people don't like them, etc etc. Some of those people likely go on to become incels or do violence.
This isn't to say that violent men are not culpable. They are. They retain agency. But Match group (that's tinder, okcupid, hinge, match, plenty of fish, and more) is making the problem worse.
It's like if there was a food shortage, and someone bought up all the grocery stores. Then they made all of them mazes and had half the cereal boxes empty.
Interesting how you brought incels up here and how you think they are created from the apps.
There’s a huge portion of users that reach for such an app that may think ‘intimate relationships =happiness’ that require therapy to address why they are unhappy (and how they do relationships) before they should try a relationship (regardless of app).
While I don’t believe the apps are necessarily what is causing this problem (any user decides on their own whether they are ready to date regardless of mental and emotional capability prior to joining) It certainly doesn’t help the situation but makes the compound result much faster. EG: I’ve seen the ‘ghosting’ definition change a lot once dating apps came into play. It used to be when you have a legitimate relationship developed and one person nopes out of it without warning. It had a legitimate victim that’s left out of the cold when another person essentially wasted their time and had a very hefty amount of inconsideration. Now it’s used in a situation if a dude gave someone the jeeb vibes on first meet and got immediately blocked after the one date or even before it makes it to that point and then calls it ghosting. And before we go the route of “well how would he know if no one tells him his behaviour is weird” : dating isn’t a survey. victims of the creepy behaviour aren’t therapists and it’s not their job. They are just on there to date too. They just want to feel safe. Their job at most is themselves. It’s not to curate someone else to become dateable. Lots of unsafe topics about the dating apps on documentaries around so people aren’t going to take it on themselves to provide feedback such as “what you said was inappropriate” without that going sideways with aggression and feeling even more unsafe.
If this is actually feeling like it’s happening a lot, I’d say: close the dating app, find a therapist, talk about why you’re feeling lonely as the problem might be more local than it what is going on the dating app. Cuz the one person whose job it is to give feedback on how you’re doing especially in situations of a relationship with others is a therapist.
It’s like you say: the apps are there to make money. They aren’t there with legitimate concern for their users whether or not they are ready for going into the dating pool. But that said: it really isn’t on the dating apps to do all that either, that is a question the user should be taking on themselves before joining the app and expecting all the results. Sometimes it is on the user.
There are more relationships you can have than a girlfriend
There's nothing inherently creepy of asking a woman on a date. Just ask them "would you like to go on a date sometime?"
Its creepy if she says no and you keep asking or otherwise act creepy about it.
For decades it has been ingrained in men that they are to be held to a very specific standard. Men don’t cry, men are strong, men have to take care of everyone else, stop your whining, I’ll give you something to cry about, be the alpha male, that’s “gay”, strength, weakness, and so on.
My father, and grandfather, both grew up with a code of silence. Feelings weren’t talked about, but relayed through their wives; except anger. That was given directly through corporal punishment (hand or belt).
I was always “emotional” growing up. I cried “like a baby” over “nothing”. No one ever came to check on me, or console me, during any of my “fits”. In fact, there were times I was ridiculed for it (sometimes by family members).
When I was 19 my grandmother died. I was really close with her; she was the only one who ever came to my aid and defended me. It tore me up so bad I could barely talk without breaking down. I was told multiple times that I shouldn’t be so upset, and that I was overreacting (by my family). Everything came to a head when all at once my cousins, aunts, uncles, and even brother yelled at me because I was being selfish and unreasonable, and insensitive to my grandfather because “he just lost his wife”.
Oh, and apologies are for “pussies”.
Anyway, it’s not really about me. I wanted to paint a picture for you as to why I’m lonely. Do with that what you will.
Society died but people kept having children anyway.
Maybe lay off the Internet for a while, mate
I’ve thought about this a lot myself. I’m 12-15 friends/acquaintances down due to them deciding to step out of life in their twenties or thirties. On paper none of them seemed to be in too bad a way and yet…
There’s obviously the problem that having and discussing emotions is for girls and gays only (/s), but there must be more to it than that.
I think there’s an expectation (where I live) that men should be strong and stoic at all times - but, honestly, many of us are fragile little flowers, some of the time, but it’s seen (erroneously) as weakness.
In my experience most men are happy to talk about: “big screen tv’s, blunts, 40’s and bitches” to NSFW quote
but they can’t open up about emotions and feelings.
Sorry for your loss.
Yes, I think of emotional talk as "showing weakness", because people around me gladly lash out at the exposed surface. Men and women do that, but it hurts more from women. They seem to be better at dealing emotional damage, or I'm just more receptive when it comes from them.
Also, talk about feelings needs to be handled, and can be handled very poorly. It also can seem demanding. "When I have my plate full of my own stuff I don't want to deal with yours", or similar mindsets when the tools to properly handle such a situation were just never acquired.
On the other hand talk about sportsball is a way to entertain oneself while giving the lizardbrain time to adapt to the people around it.
I think you’re correct that (some / many) people see the tiniest chink in your armour and go for the juggler (jugular vein - clown 🤡 joke) to compound your misery to make themselves feel/look “strong”.
And, yes, in abusive relationships I believe a husband is more likely to hurt and damage his wife with his fists whereas a wife would be more likely to hurt and damage her husband with words - generally speaking. It’s tragic either way…
See Bowling Alone.
Personally (and from a US shut-in perspective!) I'd take it further: the social contract is broken. When society has been molded to almost exclusively generate money, the closest to winning there is when you're broke is trying to spend the least amount of money possible which surely will be solitaire confinement.
I don't think there's any easy fix, moving to a better area is an individual thing yet is also the core issue when it comes to transportation+rent+cost-of-living.
This is a video about it, which I think takes a very sobering approach to it. Her humor tends to be very dark, but if you look at the comment section, she seems to be hitting it head on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQv8VuLpKN4
Now for solutions, I don't know anyone who talks about it beyond the basics of "listen to men" and "give them a healthier and less judgy space to develop social skills". But that's probably because this is such a complex issue and there seems to be no simple solution.
Man I had to scroll far down for this. I know her appearance and character is a bit hard to take seriously but she makes great points in this video.
One thing that helps loneliness is communities, especially those that meet IRL. I believe there has been a significant decline in club membership and social groups in the past decades. I think there are several factors behind this, including financial stress (and the resulting scarcity of free time).
One action that people can take is to join communities and participate in them! Even just online groups with similar interests if not IRL groups can help to make friends and feel connected. HTH
Part of capitalism is a need for high consumer culture. I grew up in a Latin American culture, and there are American sub cultures that also work similarly, there's no nuclear family. Of course your relationship with your parents and siblings are very strong and important, but you have no problem living with grandma, or having your extended family live all very close together, my family were all in the same apartment complex in an immigrant neighborhood. I grew up with my cousins, like every day, if we didn't want to play outside we'd go to different houses to see what everyone was watching on TV, we shuffle around with the different game consoles at different houses, food was entirely communal. After I got married to a typical American partner and started raising our kids together I was very shocked to find out that some food in the house is apparently owned by someone. And eating that food is a serious offense. Anyway, people used to live very close if not in a large family home with extended families. Why was this bad for capitalism? One large house owner by an entire family of 12-22 people securely, in which no one needs to buy their own home. We're a few cars and carpooling is a simple task, where food is distributed to the hungry without a lot of steps between grocer and table, I was wearing clothes my uncle wore when I was an adult. When everyone dresses in a similar manner and suits and work close lasted generations, a pair of taken care of shoes or boots that just get repaired every few decades, are you starting to see the problem? That NOT good for capitalism. When the concept of the nuclear family took hold there was a huge boom in home conduction, hardware stores, department stores, companies made fortunes off baby boomers, all this individualized products, razors, deodorant, soap, every stage in life requires a new variety of soap, 10 kinds of cereal to pick from, new shoes every 6mo.
Humans are Apes. Every other ape on the planet lives in large troops that mutually aid eachother and who is boss, and who is contending to take over, who has first pick of food and women, it's based on what? Being hella aggro? Being bigger, stronger, what? Usually it comes down to who has the best social skills, who ever bonds with the most members of the troop, because when a fight ensures, it's not about who is smart, cunning, or strong, it's about how many apes jump in on your side. We are DEEPLY social animals. The nuclear family isolated men the most. Toxic masculinity harms men on a HUGE scale. Quietly, emotionless, provide a secure home, two or more cars, and income to spare to the family you alone protect. It's pretty lonely. Many men don't even have friendships, one of the worst aspects of toxic masculinity is that it's a sign of weakness to be kind, caring, and nurturing. You know. Those aspect of social life that make every other species of ape successful. So where do men locked out of this already broken system go? They look for groups that will accept them, invite them out, bond with them socially. And who's funding all these far right groups that do this with millions of dollars? Russia. Far right billionaires and millionaires who don't want these men talking about WHY they are locked out of the system. If you look around you can also notice a lot of small service business aren't run by white people. You see Hispanic, Asian, east Indian people, who ''are all packed into that house like sardines'' with a staff of related people doing the work. Consumer culture is a dead end. The Nuclear family is a dead end.
Eventually we will break down and then who survives. The armed and dangerous? Or a farmer, rancher, producer of products, doer of services, with strong social ties and distributes food, product, service, with simple bartering making sure everyone's still alive.
Too much duplicitousness out there
Because everything that used to give men purpose nolonger exists or is nolonger viable.
Because borning a child yourself is the purpose of life and without it there is no sense in living.
The fuck u tryna say?
What exactly are you talking about? Men who feel lonely sometimes? Men without friends? Men who are not having sex?
Men without hats?
DUI laws.
What?
Lol. Bad joke. What I was getting at is people used to hang out at bars and drink more (alcohol use was worse). More generally, it's a lack of third places and car-based city design. More, and more engaging in-home entertainment/Internet also probably plays a part. Though, it's probably not a completely new phenomenon either, judging from art like Taxi Driver, Catcher In The Rye, etc. So, toxic or even plain masculinity likely makes it harder to make and keep close friends.
I'd bet female loneliness is also rising in modern society as well, due to modern phenomenon. Humans didn't evolve to live like we are. We used to mostly live in small, close-knit tribes.
What
What's the deal with poorly explained questions?
Why don't they provide more context for their perspective? Do they think people will magically know what they mean without them explaining it?
I think that’s part of the fun of an “ask people” forum, the answers reveal the common understanding of the definition of the question itself!
For example, In this question the term “male loneliness” is seemingly semantically meaningful. It seems to be a name given to the popular perception or understanding of a certain phenomenon.
Part of the fun of a forum is interacting with people as well, which OP didn't do. Just shit in the forum and fucked off.
I would like to blame modern society but since the term "Lone Wolf" exists, I'm guessing it's older than that.
there's a big difference between the loner and the lonely
Lack of socializing. We’ve lost the third place in modern society. It’s work and home and nothing else. Lots of people work from home now, which is great, but only if you have a third place. You have to meet people in the real world and find a way to connect with them.
People laugh, but churches are a good way to do that. Check one out, sit in the back, and watch the people who show up- the demographics, make sure the congregation is diverse, etc. If you see a same-sex couple walk in and sit down like they’ve done it a hundred times, you don’t have to worry about all the hate bullshit.
Church is a great way to meet people in a place where everyone feels safe and accepted. They are extremely welcoming to newcomers. There are always activities and groups to join. Churches have been the third place for literally centuries.
Even if you have irreconcilable philosophical differences, check out a Unitarian church.
Church is not a great place for third places- unless you happen to be like all the others at that particular church.
No church will actually accept you unless you’re the same as them. The “sameness” doesn’t have to be about race or orientation or accepting that.
They might be totally willing to let you in the front door, but unless you conform, that won’t be for long.
Libraries are a much, much better 3rd place, and they don’t try to ram theology down your throat to use it.
This is good advice but also note there are other alternatives to church that function the same way like humanist churches or the satanic temple. Note the satanic temple has nothing to do with satin and is not the same as the church of satin.
What i really want to see is how the rise of ai companions will affect all this. Nomi, replika, and the others are already doing good, and i forsee that it will keep growing as the technology improves, for better or for worse
They are not doing good. People are becoming dependent on chatbots produced by for-profit companies to get their fix of human socialisation. That's absolutely awful, very unfortunate, and most assuredly unhealthy.
We're meant to be alone.
We aren't though. That's just something we're told.
I need the most cynical take you have...
...nooooh, that's too cynical.
Humans are social animals
And what's up with cab drivers and B.O. - how long are those shifts? I'm thinkin' Hey!
What's up with dumb answers to serious questions? I'm just wondering, Hey!
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When you have a significant change in the population dynamic, it takes a significant time for the population not (really) effecting this change to adjust.
From my perspective as an old bloke, Women now treat relationships as transactional or have standards that are impossible (for that individual) to achieve; men are reacting in the only way available. There are obviously a number of reasons for the changing in dynamic and I'm not making that statement to judge or analyse; mass change requires motivation. The motivation presented itself.
To my mind society is in the same incredible flux as when the female pill became a real and accessible/allowable thing fifty years ago. Gillick competence case law didn't happen in the UK until 1985; that's awfully late to protect young women.
The risks to a man of a long-term relationship significantly outweigh the potential rewards. Being aware of the overwhelming risks and deciding not to engage doesn't stop one being lonely.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone." - Robin Williams
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by risk and why is it worse for men?
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https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/risk I'm assuming you're not familiar with the word and English is not your first language.
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- 80 - 90% of women win custody battles, despite prisons being almost entirely of fatherless homes. Homes where the father is the single parent have the same recidivism rate as two parent homes. 100k children each year lose contact with a parent as a result of divorce - guess which parent usually. Legal Shared parenting has almost completely disappeared.
- False accusations of violence are free or fully funded for women. In the England/Wales when legal aid introduced the requirement of domestic violence before legal aid was granted, on the quarter of this rule coming in (2011) applications under domestic abuse as documented by CAFCASS were multiplied by 10 times. Either men collectively decided to start beating their wives in that quarter or fully funded false accusations were exposed as an issue.
- About 20-30% of children are not related to their father as named on their birth certificate. Statistics from the child maintenance body in the UK shows that for the thousands of men placed on child maintenance applications over a third were shown to be false applications citing unrelated men. In France, it is illegal it seek the DNA child - father match for your own children. Visit a genealogy community or ancestry on Reddit or Facebook.
- In the UK the 1971 law (MCA) says effectively that joint marital assets follow the children. The woman typically gets around 80%+ of net assets because they have custody of the children. that's a personal observation because these are private law cases. The government refuses to publish the real numbers.
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(I'm tired of typing now) Domestic violence against men is ignored; or the victim is arrested. There are no shelters for men and children in the whole of the UK. Erin pissey, a lovely woman, who came up with the idea for shelters for DV survivors for both sexes was removed from the organisation she started by feminists and now campaigns for DV shelters for men. All of these government money for supporting male victims of DV is given to 'Women's Aid" after their successful bid years ago. There is still no support for male victims; it doesn't take a genius to imagine why.
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(Others are going to have to help finish these.) Sixty five years after the female pill, there is no male equivalent. Women can opt out of being a mother with abortion, men don't have the right to opt out of their equivalent. I don't know a guy who hasn't been told "you can take the condom off, I'm on the pill" - if he refuses a row ensues. I do know of the sale of positive pregnancy tests, condom mining for semen which is then used to become pregnant and the "on the pill" being a complete lie.
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The juice ain't worth the squeeze.
Asking the big questions over here. You'll be rich if you find the answer.
Women are not putting themselves out anymore
Women don’t owe you sex, learn and grow as a person
I am not sure what this means. Women will always make themselves available to a guy they like, they all just like the same few guys while the rest of male population gives them the ick.
Men have been taught not to approach women in public unless it's online in a dating app. Women have always been taught not to approach men.
So no one is having relationships except for a very small portion of people who are disproportionately physically attractive.
Pair that with the hypergamy that women are doing where they only chase men out of their league now for the most part and it makes things that used to be normal and taken for granted like getting married and having a family exceptional jewels that are hard to come by.
This isn't true. This is what right wing loser podcasters claim to further the idea of women or libruls as the problem, and themselves as the solution. It's a much deeper problem than that.
If you actually spend time around women you'll find that looks are a way lower priority for them than for men. You'll find that they value things like being understanding, doing interesting things, being trustworthy, and for physical things as long as you're hygienic and have a semblance of style they really don't care much even if you're heavier. And guess what? These are ALL things you can work on to improve yourself.
Want to have more women like you? Work on yourself first. Women aren't attracted to men who complain online about "I'm not allowed to go talk to them in public"
At least in my experience, women tend to care about looks just about the exact same amount as men, that is to say some care almost exclusively about looks and some not at all, and everywhere in between, and at about the same rates from what I've seen. Anecdotal tho, and the general gist of what you said still applies, I'm just being pedantic lol
If you actually spend time around women you'll find that looks are a way lower priority for them than for men. You'll find that they value things like being understanding, doing interesting things, being trustworthy, and for physical things as long as you're hygienic and have a semblance of style they really don't care much even if you're heavier.
Oddly class and status is missing from this list... I wonder why
Interesting that you took this post to be entirely about romantic/sexual relationships, especially since a partner should not be solely responsible for assuaging your lonliness.
Even if everyone had a partner/spouse male loneliness would still be a massive issue because men aren't socialized in a way that equips them to have emotionally intimate platonic friendships. If my wife was my ONLY friend, I'd still be very lonely. Furthermore, even if I wasn't in a relationship, I wouldn't be lonely because of the friends I have.
I was about to write this exact thing and you’re already getting downvotes for it. People refuse to except reality.
There is an extremely large portion of men that are scared to put themselves out there because they are ostracized as creeps and fear the consequences of social shaming. “The worst she can say is no” is no longer true. The worst she can do is take a video of you while she publicly shames you for being a creep and trying to rape her.
I think the reason for down votes is that the comment suggests that issues with dating are the reason for male loneliness, when most people in the thread would argue that believing that 'a romantic partner is the only acceptable source of meaningful emotional connection available to men' is a big part of male loneliness.
People simply just don't like men
There ain't never a shortage of dick!
Society has always put premium on women due to biology. Yeah it results in some weird externalities for men. Women got their own bags though.
There is a lot of comments faulting society. But the individuals need to take personal accountability. Choosing to live online is what I see as the crux of this issue. This comes from personal experience of living online and being loney and miserable untill i started getting out and meeting people. This lonelyness "epedemic" is people not managing their screen time.
Generally if there is a massive trend in society then only systemic changes will change that trend.
Sure it would be nice if every incel worked out, microdosed mushrooms and became more selfless people, but that's not something that will happen.
One thing that would fix a lot of this would be the government better regulating dating apps, since that's how the vast majority of people meet their partners now.
One thing that would fix a lot of this would be the government better regulating dating apps, since that's how the vast majority of people meet their partners now.
Back in my day, you didn't need two middle men to get a partner...
We do need FOSS dating solution though, the app parasites are milking most of male population for that 20 per month.
There's a multitude of reasons, my personal favourite is that men are highly aggressive sexual creatures and the stigma against homosexuality is hindering our ability to form fulfilling relationships with our male peers.
Just crack open a history book, looks like a lot of the masculine activities came with a considerable amount of gay sex. Like, it seems like the main draw of joining an army to go to war is that you can fuck a bunch of dudes the whole time you're away on campaign.
Bro has never met another man before SMH.
Deranged take
Dude… what the fuck???
you poor simple bastard
What makes you think this is a gendered thing?
Women are better at being friends to each other. I’ve basically given up on trying to make friends with other men because they are terrible friends. At best, they make no effort at all at friendship and are completely passive, requiring you to call and make all the plans. At worst, they are hostile in various ways when you try to befriend them. It is very rare to meet another dude that makes effort to be a friend.
Edit: it’s soooo funny to see this comment being downvoted because it will only perpetuate your loneliness. You deserve it.
If people are lonely it's because they cause it themselves.
I'm in an activity group and it's mostly the women of the group who are organizing the events. The men sign up to attend. The women are the ones who make plans and the men just go along.
Why don't the men take initiative?
Even playing a board game, the guys just sit there playing a game. The women are the ones who introduce themselves, ask other people their names, what they do for a living, engage in conversation. This is all stuff men could be doing themselves but choose not to.
Some men isolate themselves using video games and didn't join any social groups then complain that they are lonely. It's like complaining you're hungry when the food is right in front of you but you just won't eat it -- you're expecting someone else to literally feed you.
A lot of men were never taught to do this. We raise young girls to be incredibly social, but boys are not socialized to nearly the same extent. You can see this in Autism diagnoses. Girls are diagnosed as a much lower rate and the ones that do receive the diagnosis tend to be really severe cases. The leading theory as to why is that society places so many social expectations on girls that the more mild cases quickly learn to mask and pass themselves off as neurotypical.
Hell, I'm 35 and I just started a group chat with some of my bros in order to help with motivation to get things done (it's basically a stand up meeting but for our personal lives/goals). NONE of them even know each other, they were just doing this to help me out because I'm burned out. 2 weeks in and they had all thanked me privately for giving them a social outlet and improving their mood. None of us usually text people unless we need to, and now we'll routinely get roped into conversations because someone shares an interesting update.
Meanwhile my wife is juggling 3 different group chats in addition to half a dozen friends she keeps in touch with 1-1.
There might be some biological mechanism too, but I think a lot of it boils down to boys have "productive labor" modelled for them as ideal behavior while girls are taught how to be considerate friends.
-plenty of men out there do planning
-going along with someone is not a lack of socializing it can be their way of supporting.
-In fact it’s probably better that a dude doesn’t take over on a woman doing it because that has been taught to be all sorts of sexist now. I know if it were me in the middle of organizing and some dude took over I’d be all sorts of pissed off.
-There is social aspect in video games too. In fact there is a large amount of social presence online. You also have wallflowers online but just saying, if someone is looking at their screen it doesn’t necessarily mean they are incapable of social ability. there's actually a skill in online presence.
Yes because only males can be lonely.
I know Jordan Peterson has a lot of followers. He says it's the women's fault men are lonely. He says men are their victim, pictures women as evil while men should be on top. This creates an even bigger isolation and creates sex offenders.
In Japan and South Korea there are many men who are isolated because of videogames and it's online culture. They have a relationship with a Nintendo character of AI on their phone (no joke).
Because a lot of lonely men are on the internet, it's not a correct representation of the real world. Doesn't change the fact there are many non the less.
Just because there are many different cultures accessable for anyone through the internet, it's easier to isolate yourself in such a culture. Whether it's on reddit, 4chan, through games, forums or other social media groups. But it keeps you off the streets, away from real socializing, learning to behave, how to talk to a girl, find a hobby which isn't on your computer, meet real friends.
I know Jordan Peterson has a lot of followers. He says it's the women's fault men are lonely
Peterson has a habit of saying things that might technically be true in isolation but will then disagree with you when you try and make a conclusion from it. In this case he has also said it's men's fault for not making women a good enough 'offer'.
Social media changed dating, and made it ok for both women and men to treat eachother as commodities, resources, status symbols.
This bleeds over in real life, where women don't need/want to have relationships with men anymore (in real life) in the west (outside of their love relationship). They already get all the attention they need from hundreds of men on social media telling them they are beautiful.
A lot of western guys go for girls in Indonesia or Thailand these days, because they are kind and beautiful. Of course the girls see the opportunity to be with a guy from the west who has money. But it seems to work out. Both genders are often happy in those relationships, both get what they value from it.
Social media changed dating, and made it ok for both women and men to treat eachother as commodities, resources, status symbols.
I stopped reading right here. Men and women have ALWAYS treated each other as commodities. Since......always. Hell, you can go back to the early 1900s before women were allowed to vote, and your wife was LITERALLY considered your property. Some cities like Kansas City even allowed you to legally beat your wife, because again, she was your property.
Or you can go back even farther than that. You can go to the 1400s in England, and mothers would willingly hand over their sons to the king. Sons as young as 9 years old. And the reason was so that the king could have casual sex with your children. And this was not only accepted, but encouraged socially back then. Mothers would brag to other people in their social circles that the king chose THEIR son to fuck in the butt at 9 years old. That was like a status symbol for your family to have your kids chosen for the king's personal sexual purposes.
So yeah, social media had nothing to do with people treating other people like objects. That shits been going on probably longer than the concept of literacy and the written word.
When it comes to dating, most men date for looks, most women date for status/wealth. And then people wonder why so many relationships fall apart. It's because SO many people are just looking for the blonde girl with the biggest tits, or the doctor with the biggest paycheck.
Well looks can fade, and wealth can disappear. If you marry a girl for her looks in your 20s, you'll be bitter in your 60s. And if you marry a guy for his bank account, you'll still be stuck with him if he gets a prenup, or goes bankrupt.
Don't date someone for what they bring to the table. Date someone for who they are as a person. Because an average looking girl who's amazing to hang out with will still be amazing to hang out with then they're old. And a blue collar working man may not be rich, but he'll still give you the shirt off his back to prevent seeing you be unhappy. Even when you're old.
All these relationships I see today are just people looking to use other people, until you see the rare ones that you realize "Yeah! They're going to last together." Meanwhile Britney Bangs-a-lot is on her 7th marriage.
There's been a concerted effort over the last several decades to push a men vs women dynamic online, and most men don't buy into it, so it's really just been people shitting all over men without consequence. Just look at the other answers here focusing exclusively on how men can be blamed (edit: many better replies have been posted since I made this comment).
Quite likely pushed excessively by foreign propaganda.