Honestly, I agree men's issues do need to be seriously discussed, but it's wrong to hijack discussion about women's issues to talk about men's issues. The reverse is also true.
I've actually seen the opposite happen more often than the former. Both online and irl. A guy starts complaining about things and a cacophony of women show up to tell him how he'll never understand what it's like to be a woman.
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
I don't think I've ever seen the opposite, where the dude is holding a reasonable opinion or complaint.
Meanwhile this comment section is an example of the comic itself
Go start your own thread then if it's important to you. That's the whole point, don't hijack the conversation. Sucks when it happens to you, don't do it to other people as revenge.
Man just going for irony right away, eh?
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
Probably not in the thread with the comic about womens issues being talked over by men, like you're doing now, would be a good choice.
EDIT: I'll eat the downvotes. Just wanted to say how embarrassing it is to be a man and hear 'but what about men's issues?' used in a non-ironic way. Sorry ladies, you don't deserve this crap. Also thanks for being the bulwark against fascism.
You are showing exactly the behaviour that the meme is criticising.
I agree with this and I'd also add that bringing up men's issues to try to silence discussion of women's issues then harms men as well because people associate discussion of men's issues with that type of shit behaviour.
While I agree with this sentiment, IME it is very rarely intended to silence discussion of women's issues, and is usually related to hyperbolic statements like "men are trash" or protest signs like "not all men but always a man" (both from a lemmy post I partook in "attempting to silence" last month.) Imo it's reasonable to take offense, disagree, and express both of those feelings wherever I see it to call it out. I am not trying to silence women, I just want them to treat me with the same respect I treat them, if they don't want me to say "all women are trash" because two women have literally raped me (except for the definition of rape in my area calls for penetration specifically, so legally forcing me to have sex with them was at most "sexual assault," which while I'm mentioning it fuck that bullshit, but I digress), then they shouldn't get to call me trash because someone who is not me, I'm not friends with, and who I've never even met, raped them either. I, as a male rape victim, am expected to be able to separate "those women" from "all women" lest I be an "incel" (though, by the definition of incel I think being raped twice negates that alone, yet they still call you one for being a victim and mad about being lumped in with the aggressors for the crime of having the same genitals as their aggressor), and all I'm asking for is the same in return. We can stand with victims and against abusers, it doesn't have to be male victims vs woman victims vs abusers battle royale.
/rant.
Sorry, I happen to care about this topic a lot, being personally effected and all lol.
Tbf, the times I usually see it "hijacked" it's because of signs like "not all men but always a man" completely pretending that male rape victims don't exist, or comments like "men are trash" under the post. If I ever in my life saw a post about male victims that said "women are trash" or had comparable signs and women complained, I would see that as totally justified.
There's also plenty of room in there for less malicious situations as well (not that the malicious ones you speak of aren't happening...they are...but there's other cases as well).
I think a lot of the problems arise based on differing expectations, and ideas about what a "conversation" entails.
Too often, it seems like a conversation means "let me voice my grievances, assign blame, and explain my ideas about why it's like that and what should be done...and didn't you dare to disagree with me or question anything or point out flaws in my logic, because this is my space!"
And hey, you're free to do that...but that ain't a conversation. Conversation means you don't get to dictate the terms completely to everyone else.
I feel like those who do this do know, deep down, that they don't want a conversation at all... but "everyone shut up, let me say my thing, then agree with me" tends to draw in a smaller audience. You might be right, you might be wrong, but, "Listen to me and don't say anything I don't like." isn't a conversation.
Twitter normalized of extremely simplistic expression of complicated issues which leads to all kinds of kneejerk reactions. Some men misinterpret whatever complaint as being about them and turn defensive, and of course the most aggressive of those voices are amplified by social media. The inflammatory comments beget more inflammatory comments, reasonable people quickly exit the space and this is what you end up with.
I firmly believe it's social media that's to blame.
For sure social medias are a big part of it.
I understand that "all men are trash" and the likes are generalizations about men, not me specifically. But when you see these lines make rounds and rounds again, it can makes you question yourself even if you've done nothing wrong. And that's a big hit to self-esteem and anxiety.
That's the problem... When is it time to talk about men's issues? Specifically, in a group that doesn't listen to Peterson and Andrew Tate
I agree with what you said, but I think the solution is to talk about everyone's issues instead of men's issues. Men's issues aren't about the men, they're about how men relate to others.
Women's issues should have their place, but men don't need the same thing... Instead they need everyone to show up and talk about their own issues
You worded that better than I could, well done.
Why does everything have to be so us-vs.-them? We all share the same planet.
This is potentially gender construct and sexism getting directly in the way of advocacy against real issues. Women start a protest advocating against a very real issue they face, by women for women, and it is spun as a direct attack on men. Same thing happens for men's advocacy.
"...For the Master's tool will never dismantle the master's house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. And this fact is only threatening to those women who still define the master's house as their only source of support..." - Audre Large, in "Master's Tools Will Never Take Down the Master's House"
I don't think most would blame many women for the practices they do in public to stay safe, despite the behavior explicitly being sexist. This is because we understand that in absence of these kinds of behaviors, women do actually get prayed upon, most often by men. It's the reality of a dangerous world. however, we get angry when the statements and phrases used to justify these behaviors are said aloud.
What we fail to acknowledge is that that same kind of victimization is possible to a guy. Most guys would find the idea of deliberately using the bathroom at the same time as their friend as weird, possibly even girly. Machismo stereotypes and trying to conform to manliness actively makes men more vulnerable .
We also downplay women being violent, yet again a gender stereotype which not only lets women get physical in public, but actually also makes women easier to dismiss when they're angry and yelling. This not only lets women get away with toxic behavior, but robs them of being taken seriously at other times.
These are both issues caused by gender, which is also actively defining how advocacy happens and creates an arbitrary divide.
I liked this comment. You wrote with the nuance and balance that I strive for. Thanks for sharing
Outrage is the new thing. Many people aren’t happy or able to feel like their life is affirmed without being angry with someone or at something and it’s vital to their ideology to impose their values on others.
Non compliance with their demands is non optional.
Is outrage all that new? It strikes me as evergreen
Because humans like to make up categories which naturally cause inequality of some kind. I don't want this but it's the way it is and to pretend otherwise is ignorant and silly.
Sometimes certain subsets of the planet have problems particular to their region, culture, or cohort.
Telling a person wandering through the desert "I also get thirsty" maybe deflects from the issue at hand.
Telling a person wandering through the desert "I also get thirsty" maybe deflects from the issue at hand.
Or... That may be a show of support, in sharing of a common burden, a message of, "You are not alone in this struggle."
Rather than always seeing it as a negative, maybe allow for the possibility that it's coming from a different place.
Honestly, I feel like this whole sentiment of, "Don't attempt to bring any context into a conversation. Only stick strictly to what one person has decided to talk about." is not only counterproductive in that moment, but also in the medium and long term has a marked effect in shutting down future conversations about difficult and uncomfortable topics.
I mean, how many times does a person get into a conversation that starts with, "Can we talk about X?" or "Let's have an open, honest discussion about Y?"...only to add something to that conversation and be told, "No, you're wrong for bringing that up. We're only talking about X and why it's the worst thing ever."... before they get to the point where the next time someone says, "Can we talk about Z?" they just say, "No, sorry. Not interested."?
Many of these problems while not strictly zero sum are pretty close to it.
I feel like men do have it tough and when men start talking about it, they get shutdown and told to be a man. Boys dont cry afterall. So some men may feel its unfair when women speak up and are heard. So they want to make it about them. In the comic, just as the men are dismissive of woman problems, she is dismissive of mens problems. Instead of attacking an unfair weath class system, we bicker about shupid shit like men vs women. Its not race, gender or sexuality we should be discussing. Its social, weath classes.
The time to talk about men's problems is any time you like, except when a woman has just started talking about women's problems. If you redirect a conversation about women's problems, you're telling the women that you don't care about their problems. If that's the case, fine. Just don't contribute, and let people who want to discuss the women's problems do that. Start another conversation about men's problems elsewhere.
she is dismissive of mens problems.
Not as presented. She's being actively interrupted and trying to stay focused on her original topic.
You still hear "man up" a lot and it's fucked up.
Did you just call gender-based discrimination a side contradiction?
Ppl that make these kinds of comics clearly do not socialize with others irl. This only happens online with other trolls, from everywhere on the spectrum of whatever group. But irl, most people are pretty decent.
The internet is part of real life. Internet trolls are real people behind their screens, and they live somewhere. Maybe they live far away from you and near this artist.
If you're a digital artist, your domain is the internet. Your audience is the internet. Your medium is the internet. In that case, you'll write about the internet.
I agree. There is an added layer of depersonalization, but it's still real life, just like driving in traffic. The same people who would be courteous in person could be cutting you off and being freely offensive on the road. The interactions are no less real, maybe even more real than some situations that prescribe some distancing, like a job interview or talking to a coworker, depending on how close you are.
Honestly same thing happens when we talk about men.
Tons of women coming up, saying "women have it worse" and attempting to minimize the importance if men's issues.
Let's just listen to both sides for once, and make everyone heard. When everyone is given a platform to speak, there's no need to interrupt each other.
Funnily enough you're in the comic. Not that I think you intended that.
My point is that it is a universal issue, all while many people are trying very hard to represent it as women-specific.
When male voices are shushed both under their posts and under those focused on women, they don't have much of a platform to speak out. And they need it, too.
If all sides have an opportunity to say things without being interrupted, there is no point in chiming in and saying the other side has it worse.
You're right, and we all know who downvoted you
This meme is selling shovels, and the comments here are more than happy to dig holes it seems.
I'm just going to speak my mind as a Closeted transwoman who would look like a guy
I didn't honestly want to get involved with this thread at all in fear of creating an absolute mess
But being trans myself I see myself having empathy for both woman's and men's rights because I know and understand the issues men are facing and see the issues woman are facing
I don't like seeing the devide on either side and absolutely hate seeing the division and fighting especially when people advocate for men's rights or woman's rights
I personally advocate for both because I see everyone having rights as part of equality and equity and if you don't want any one group to have rights then that isn't equality or equity
We should be free to talk about both men's rights and woman's rights without being attacked for it
YES!
As a person who is just genuinely against all discrimination, including discrimination of women and men, I never quite understood why is this divide so powerful.
We'll do our best if we work together, not compete for attention. Women face real issues. Men face real issues. Many of them play out of each other, and solving one would help untangle the other.
All while people will seemingly rip you apart for saying we could work together.
No, I don't want to play the tug of war or steal the attention from the problem of "your side". I just see how those issues intertwine, and working with both is paramount if we actually want to solve them. Let's do that instead of whatever mess has been created.
Someone downvoted you which is lame. All you've advocated for is that both groups have their issues be respected in public discourse.
Because like the comic is pointing out as the issue and that OP has just done that exact thing - steering the conversation of topic away from the focus.
In a discussion about women by a woman, it sounds crazy but maybe they want the focus to be on women. That doesn't mean men issues don't matter or don't exist. There are an infinite number of venues to discuss it that are not in a thread regarding women issues.
I have never seen this happen. I am sure it happens. Perhaps we can leave these toxic people behind. Regardless of gender, color, ...
I've seen it happen in both directions. I've seen more of it being the opposite as in the meme, but I'm a man so am more likely to see those instances. My female friends have had the opposite experience, probably for the same reason
Yeah, but no
There are assholes on both sides, like it or not.
Yes, there are loads of men who don't deserve the name, that put women down, who can only be happy on the back of women. Fuck them
Having said that, I very much remember that video of guys going to a support group for men that committed uicide with feminists waiting for them outside to yell things like "it's good that he killed himself!". Fuck those assholes too.
Can we maybe ALL be nice to EVERYONE?
I'm sorry, but this comic doesn't help. The reality is that both men and women face the same nonsense when they bring up what they have to contend with so how about we don't try to disparage either side? Listen to both sides? You know, the thing we should be always doing?
I'm sorry, but this comic doesn't help.
I don't think it necessarily has to? Like, I agree with pretty much everything in your comment, aside from this part and what it implies. I read this comment as an expression of frustration from the artist, and it's certainly one that I can relate to. I also realise that there's a heckton of men who'll relate too, because of how men who want to carve out space to talk about men's issues can be cut off, even if they're not the same men as the assholes who only want to talk about men's issues when they're speaking over a woman. However, I think that saying "both sides" to this misses the point of the comic
It can be useful to ground statements in our own personal perspectives because of how it limits the scope of what we're saying. A smaller, messier example is that I am autistic and have done both disability activism and autism activism in the past. I am autistic and because of that, I am also disabled, and so many of my experiences as an autistic person can also apply more generally to disabled people. However, generalising a statement can be difficult, especially if on a difficult topic, such as institutional ableism. I was able to speak confidently on how that affected me personally, and to a more limited degree, how it affects other autistic people, because of who I am in community with. However, I don't directly know any deaf people, for example, and thus I am cautious when talking about my experiences as a disabled person, lest I over-generalise. I get a similar sense from the comic's use of "as a woman". Grounding stuff in that way is often an attempt to limit the scope of the discussion to something more manageable when grappling with something hard to articulate.
I also do think it's useful to recognise the difference in experience. As a silly example, I might say "as a woman, I need to breathe air in order to survive". I could also say "as a human, I need to breathe air in order to survive". I could also say "as an animal, I need to breathe air in order to survive", but actually, I'd need to go and double check the facts on that last one. That's sort of my point — sometimes statements are overly specific and should be simplified, like in the "as a [woman/human]" statements. However, limiting the scope (like in the "as a human" statement compared to the "as an animal" one) actually gives space for the possibility that some weird animals don't need to breathe.
Apologies if I have explained this poorly. I don't mean to come off as lecturing or argumentative; I am replying to your comment because I appreciate your points and I am open to discussion.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and my apologies for responding so late. I don't have much time available to go over my responses.
I get your point but this comic basically implies that any time that a guy says he has a real problem, he is somehow hurting women. This makes it that guys should not complain at all, about anything?
This reminds me of this video from a few years back where men were gathering in some university building to talk about suicide within men. These were men, people, who lost either their fathers, brothers, or sons to suicide.
Cue a group of extremist feminists to have an impromptu protest at the door entrance, shouting at these guys "it's great that he's dead, one less evil men", that sort of blood boiling shit. I think that comics like this at the very least excuse this behavior and at worst encourage it
I've noticed this an uncomfortable amount on Lemmy. Being trans, I've started bringing up my pretransition experience/traumas living as a dude even if it's not relevant whenever I talk about a women's issue that effects me because I don't get taken seriously otherwise.
Well, actually, lately I've taken up just not talking about women's issues, and really just commenting less frequently over all, because this whole place is like a mine field of people who just wanna argue. Every time before I hit send I have to think "Is somebody gonna think this is about them and get pissed with me?" And 99% of the time the answer is yes.I'm sorry you had to deal with that lemmy is definitely a bit more wild in terms of strong opinions, some very cool people on here but also a lot of immaturity.
I'm not trans but isn't that a normal thing to think before posting? I'm fine with saying to my friends "(wo)men have hurt me in the past, and it makes me less trustful of them" but I wouldn't comment that publicly, since either I get weirdos saying "yeah I hate (wo)men too" or weirdos saying "the other sex does this but worse!" Either way they don't get what I mean, so I'm going to be very careful with qualifying what I say. It's a hot-button topic and it sucks I have to do that just to share an experience, but a lot of people are sensitive (myself included) to perceived attacks. I still get people misunderstanding it, but that's usually 1/100 instead of 1/5. It sucks that it doesn't feel like a group of friends, but there are a lot of communities on lemmy that will ban people acting like jerks (lemmy.blahaj.zone for one)
I suppose I just had higher expectations for Lemmy tbh. When I first joined on the first instance I found, the community was so nice, supportive, and in general just an amazing place to be where it felt like anybody could have a reasonable discussion about anything. It just really, really quickly devolved into what every other social media site is.
I did find using the app Connect to block lemmy.world where I assume most of the most toxic people land purely on account of its size instantly reduced toxicity in my feed by a massive amount, but it also unfortunately blocks half the content on the site and I also don't like that I have to block plenty of reasonable users as collateral to achieve it.
I know I'm just one person, but your experiences are important and imo, necessary for women's liberation (and human liberation more generally). I'm not going to say "you should share your experiences" because I get how exhausting it is to be challenged on basic shit all the time and that means commenting can be akin to self harm if overdone. I guess I'm just trying to expand that 1% of non-assholes into a larger percentage.
I say this as a cis woman whose feminism has gotten a hell of a lot more intersectional in recent years, in part due to trans friends. Knowing trans women in particular has helped me to feel more at home and happy in my own gender (femininity and its relationship with womanhood is complicated). Having lived as a guy for a chunk of your life no doubt means that your lived experience (especially with respect to gender) is messy and complex, but that's great, because the world is messy and complex. At least, it would be great, if more people were open to listening to you when you share. I'm sorry that you have to do the cost:benefit analysis before commenting — that part is something I can relate to.
Pshhhh, noone here is going to argue with you. You're wrong /s
Seriously though, sorry the internet is full of hatefull people. Thank you for what you have shared in the past. Some of us do benefit from hearing other people's struggles, but just don't comment as much. Negative engagement usually outweighs positive engagement on all social media platforms.
I’ve seen the opposite of this happen way more often. In fact, I think we should take care to let people speak on these issues without diminishing or having another issue hijack the discussion.
Anyone should be able to talk about their issues without being told that it doesn’t matter because there’s some other issue.
Upvote though because I like the discussion.
The way this comment section unironically mirrors the comic perfectly.
So many dudes here unironically talking about how men have it hard too 🤦♂️
It's kind of crazy and laughable. All these dude unirocally making this about themselves. Make the opposite meme and watch the victim-bros therapy group unfold.
Men have it worse in every way, so you should focus on that.
I love when I'm explaining a struggle of mine that is cause of who I am and then being enrolled in the oppression Olympics.
It's almost like assholes can't keep their mouths shut when people don't talk about their needs. If only society created less of those, that'd be nice.
WRT the first panel, I feel that way too.
That said, is this ragebait?
Yes.
Okay, I'll just say it.
Everyone has it rough right now. Mostly because we've been thoroughly railroaded by corporations for most of our lives, but still.
Everything sucks.
Um, yes. This might happen a lot less if these issues that need to be talked about aren't all blamed on guys. But still yes; we constantly hear about women's problems in various media all the time, while men are usually stuck having to use some comment section to talk about their problem.
Hey wait ... I'm in a comment section now!
We have groups like [email protected] available for talking about men's issues. The problem is that these groups often attract users who explicitly want to blame the issues faced by men, mostly or entirely on women. This derails the conversation similarly, and robs men of the autonomy to improve their situation, since if women are entirely to blame then there is little men can do to help themselves than pressure women to change (a bad solution). Plenty of users there try to shut that kind of toxicity down there, luckily. That does not stop that kind of interaction, though.
Think about the similar history of the Incel movement being hijacked by misogynists.
There are issues which both genders cause for each other, but there many more issues which every gender causes for themselves as well. It is best that we all own those issues we cause at the same time that we find solutions (for both internal and external issues) which don't cause issues for others. Otherwise we'll just continue in a war of the sexes.
Responding directly to the person in the comic
I hear you when you say that as a woman, you feel societal expectations of you can be harsh and contradictory.
There isn't a way for me to experience the same things that you experience, but I can try to empathise with your experiences by comparing them with my own, and noting times when I have felt the same way. This means that I have to compare my experiences with yours. It isn't done from a place of contest, but from trying to relate.
Good point. I think in a case like this it's useful to explicitly point out that you're trying to relate, and to format your response as a question so as to demonstrate that you're actually interested in her experience. The fact that she will likely have experienced a lot of bad- faith responses will mean that we need to tread carefully when trying to compare our experiences.
I was really hoping the comments here would be better.
Embarassing, tbh.I follow a lot of women on socials, including this artist, and this shit happens on pretty much every post they make. It's crazy to me some of them have the willpower to continue creating and posting because i sure wouldn't.
I get what the comic is saying but from my experience men dont ssy this because thats the whole problem with mens mental health, tho women do get ignored but not in favor of men just generally. Point is the world is shit, and yes everyones mental health is shit.
No one called her derogatory epitaphs, totally unrealistic. Also more SA threats need to be there and a few death threats.
They were probably in the Reddit comments though.
Ah, yes. Nothing fires up a debate quite like making someone else's problems about you
I hope that poor woman takes something for that terrible cold she has.
To everyone saying they've never seen this happen, but the opposite happens all the time, I'd like you to try something. Show this comic to a woman in your life and ask if they've ever felt this way. Just try it, and listen more than you talk.
It's possible that having your concerns dismissed by people with different life experience than you is a universal phenomenon.
very helpful
Usually it's a case of a well thought out decent post, but then you scroll down to comments and it's "men are trash" and etc, so you end up with a bunch of fighting, which detracts from the original point.
Prolly would be better if "comments on this are disabled" was more common practice.
Or if administrative systems actually punished people heavily for saying stuff like "(any group of people) are trash"
If the comments are threaded (like they are here), I don't get why any point can be considered to derail conversations. That's just one branch. If you don't care to discuss that branch, just scroll past or minimize it and find another branch or start your own. They can all be discussed in parallel.
People of all genders will continue having a bad time until we do something about the group that is hogging all of the resources/assets/freedoms, and guess what, that group is not defined by a gender. It's defined by a dollar amount.
"Wamen" is one of those jokes that has taken a new meaning in the context of my marriage. But I always come close to saying it around people who don't know that.
sounds like baby Ramen, and now im hungry
toby keith guest appearance
After this election I agree. We are toxic animals that should be killing ourselves.
Guys is it misogynistic to not like misandry?
Also last time I heard anyone even talk about the MRA crowd was like 10 years ago
an attack on men and women! well done @[email protected]
Even in these comments, people don't get it, lol.
Cmon. It's a straw man argument and the comic is intended to be polaeisiing.
Both sets of issues can coexist, and I strongly suspect that many issues have a common root.
WUT ABOUT MEN?!??!?
A lot of the modern "Western Chauvinism" is due to tech bros following Curtis Yarvin's ideas. JD Vance and his handler Peter Thiel are some of his followers.
The philosophy emerged out of the Neo-reactionary "dark enlightenment" period of 2014 - around the time of GamerGate, but has had Tech Bros funding it the whole time... And now they have their own VP candidate!
These misogynist "philosophies" are far far older than 2014 and in no way modern.
But the old ones don't have VP candidates right now, and aren't expressly aimed at ending democracy and replacing it with a techno monarchy.
Yarvin has been described as a "neo-reactionary" and "neo-monarchist" who "sees liberalism as creating a Matrix-like totalitarian system, and who wants to replace American democracy with a sort of techno-monarchy".[7][8][9]
Nor do they have multiple billionaires backing them ao just trying to stay focused on what's most relevant right now.
Edit: By the way, Vance's political career is only two years old, and has been entirely funded by Thiel, who also introduced him to Trump as a VP candidate... And Thiel is on record as wanting to end Democracy.
All lives matter type shit. We live in a patriarchy, the least you can do is listen to those most affected, women. Don't expect compassion if you can't show it.
Exactly how I am sure poor white people have it bad in this system(and it needs to be addressed), yet those primarily affected by racism have to come to the spotlight, exactly this way men have problems(and need to be addressed), yet those primarily affected by the patriarchy have to come to the spotlight, women.
Conflating one social problem (patriarchy) with others (economic inequality and poverty for example) is harming the cause and it's disorienting, it's wrong. When we talk about the patriarchy, the discussion should not be diverted and those mostly affected are women, so we talk about women's problems and how they experience it. That goes for queer people's problems as well. It goes for any underprivileged/minority social group. That's it.
We live in a patriarchy
I don't even know what this means anymore.
Look, my cis white male cultural heritage is colonialism and centering my experience
women are the worst
