Even in 2016 it was clear he was a con artist. He literally said in one of the debates that he wouldn't accept the results of the election if he lost.
Cue 2020: shocked Pikachu face
I think everyone expected him to cry fowl when he lost in 2020. I think being a little surprised that he'd go so far as to stage a violent coup is probably understandable.
go so far as to stage a violent coup
...apparently as a distraction while he worked with Lawyers to setup fake faithless electors to invalidate the results of states he lost.
*con man. Con Artists have an actual skill.
Oh, and men don’t?? You’ve now begun your tour of my victim complex.
or the "russia, if you're listening..."
Or in Helsinki when he said that he believed Putin over his own intelligence officers.
He didn’t respect the results when he won. He saw that he lost the popular vote and cried about it for ages.
He physically mocked a disabled news reporter during his campaign.
He openly said the way to get women is to grab them by the pussy during his campaign.
He openly admitted to being a racist dumbass with the whole "build the wall" during his campaign.
Yeah I'd say it was pretty cut and dry that he was a special kind of dog shit from the beginning.
The OP is proof of how much Trump has stretched the overton window, to the point that you can find liberals saying that 2016 Trump might have had a pass for some.
Yeah Trump has been openly fascist since long before he became president. Anyone with two ears and a functional brain could see that.
Yup we have a presumed presidential candidate openly talking about how he going to be a dictator
Exactly. And all of these commenters saying "Yes, well what if the person we're talking about is just media illiterate and doesn't pay attention to politics or has been incredibly successfully hiding under a rock for the last 8 years"... literally all someone has to do to determine that Trump is a horrible excuse for a human being is to read anything he's ever said or watch any of his appearances on camera. Any of them. Take your pick. If you can't clock that he's a fucking monster within 5 minutes of whatever clip he's in, then either you have no understanding of the difference between right and wrong, or you're dumb as hell. And if you do clock that he's a shithead and vote for him anyway, that makes you as bad as he is.
And hey, I get it. There are some incredibly stupid people in this world. But, like, 73.5 million people voted for that fat orange idiot in 2020. So it seems statistically unlikely that all of those people would fall into that category. For all, or even the majority of Trump's voters to not be shit human beings would be a statistical wonder.
Bible belt thinks he's the anti-christ and wants him to ruin the world so they can have their rapture.
Worse, if he’s the antichrist, they’re the choades who were suckered into believing him. They talk about how he’s picked by Jesus. Some pastors have given sermons about how he is an “imperfect vessel”. But I’ve never heard any say he’s the antichrist, not even close.
Not so sure about that.
Trump is openly saying that he's going to be a dictator. Trump is the Republican election pick. If you vote Republican, you vote for Trump, you're a shit bag faschie voting for fascism. Full stop.
He’s fighting in court claiming absolute immunity. He’s never going to stop committing crimes. Today he was in a courtroom for a defamation case while simultaneously defaming the sexual assault victim who’s suing him. They’re all fucking degenerates, every last one of them.
That's why SCOTUS has put off all requests for hearings in regards to Trump - They need him to win the election before they rule that presidents have total immunity so he can "Day One Dictator."
Trump's team is doing everything they can to delay his court cases past the election, I'd put up $50 saying SCOTUS will take the cases they're denying as soon as he's the president elect or whatevs.
But that's what they want... They want a dictator because they don't want the president who can't do anything because his hands are tied by complicated political checks and balances. They want a president that doesn't care about the courts or the legislation that they disagree with. They want the president who pushes authoritative action through the bureaucracy. Unfortunately they don't understand that those actions will never be to aid them but only aid himself.
Well if Trump tries the dictator thing we can always try out that 2nd Amendment thing.
I'd like to remind everyone that some of us are shit people but haven't and still don't support Trump.
"Look, I might be a shit person, but even I have standards."
Don't you dare excuse the 2020 voters. That man's platform was standing on top of the corpses of thousands of people dead because of his active undermining of efforts to handle the pandemic.
Stop trying to retroactively make this shit reasonable. It was outrageous and unforgivable long, long before now.
Almost all of my coworkers are Trumpers, can confirm, they are all shit people.
Centrists: It's not all Republicans that support extremist candidates, there's still lots of non-extremists in the party!
Iowa caucus: Trump 51.0% DeSantis 21.2% Haley 19.1% Ramaswamy 7.7%
Leaving 1.0% or less that don't support an extremist candidate
At 1% or less, you can assume we're talking about people who signed up for the wrong caucus by accident or something.
*of the ones voted in the extreme weather
Mmm. And what's going to be the excuse after the New Hampshire primary next week?
Something like 14% of Iowan voters actually turned out. So 51% of that. It's still not ideal of course 🤷
I don't think the Iowa caucuses are like normal voting. It's more like an event:
I don't think a single person under 40 was in that room, so these numbers and results track.
I mean, 75,000 less people voted overall than in the 2016 caucus. Granted most of those probably died of covid or just didn't want to go in the cold, but still...
I read on here a few days ago about Haley being representative of the LEAST extreme. That many of her voters would just end up voting Biden, even though they don't agree with most of the politics.
I could almost give them benefit of the doubt. Anyone ignorant enough to call Biden socialist though is immediately not worth talking to
I'm kinda baffled that we're a decade deep into this and people are still hung up on the fact that despite knowing their figurehead is an asshat, genuinely good people can have the level of cognitive dissonance to simultaneously support what they believe he represents, while also ignoring his actions.
There are societal divisions to the very bedrock of the USA - Trump is a symptom, not the condition.
I agree to an extent but there's a certain point where cognitive dissonance can't be the excuse. We're long past that. There have been countless wake-up calls, off-ramps, breaking points, etc. if absolutely none of them, not one, has made you stop and reconsider after all this time, then what will?
Frankly, if you're so ethically and mentally shattered as a human being that cognitive dissonance is enough to make you support a man that has done every possible thing under the sun over the course of 8 years to illustrate what a walking cancer he is on society, then there's no fundamental difference between you and the actual goose-stepping supporters, because you will ultimately behave exactly the same regardless. There's nothing anyone can say or do to help you, so why should anyone waste their time concerning themselves with whether or not you're a true asshole or just mislead.
I always wonder how many people would have to openly say they are part of a new "American White Nationalism group" before it hits critical mass and most of the other white people cower with their tails between their legs and go over to join them? I think the percent is lower than it should be, I really think the threat would only need to look credible to hit that point. So what 30%? Who knows maybe even 25 or 20%.
At the beginning of 2016 maybe you could say that. By late 2016 it was obvious what kind of person he was. Nobody after that gets a pass.
Indeed. "Grab them by the pussy" and his mocking of a disabled person all made it very clear. Anyone still on board with him after that was a certified asshole.
Most Trump supporters just believe every negative story about him is a government conspiracy created to try to keep him out of power.
The lawsuits, the criminal charges, the COVID deaths... They think they're all lies of the liberal media.
How do you fight that?
Offer them something better. They support Trump because he makes them feel:
- Smart for cutting through all the lies to get to the truth.
- Part of something bigger than themselves.
- Victimized/marginalized (few things are more empowering than being wronged).
The opposition has to overcome these powerful emotions. Currently, they are kinda banking on a decisive victory in court. That might be enough to dispel some of the enchanted, but will only encourage the most fervent. Worse, if it doesn't get him locked up or disqualify him from running, it's going to increase his power.
The best way to fight it is with a candidate that can beat him. I hope Biden is capable of pulling it off a second time.
Besides Trump himself, there are systemic issues that we should be fighting over. The electoral collage system is a huge problem that isn't going away. 2000 and 2016 elections won by candidates with fewer votes.
Gerrymandering is also a big reason why he has as much support as he enjoys. Honestly, I might not care as much if he were president if Congress and State legislatures weren't so out of wack with our population distributions. Representative government my ass. Land is straight up voting and it should piss us all off way more.
Having a functioning brain?
If there was a grand government conspiracy to keep Trump from power, why didn't they keep him from power the first time? And why has this conspiracy been so ineffective at disappearing or otherwise fast-tracking a baseless trial against him to convict and imprison him? Why hasn't the CIA or FBI simply taken him out, given their historic track record of taking out foreign or domestic politically problematic persons?
What conspiracy could be so ineffective as to permit him to not only rise to power, but to attain it for a time, and to try to reclaim it?
It's difficult to trust anything when you firmly believe the source of the well is tainted. There's a religiosity to it.
I as a Canadian just don't get the appeal. He's not handsome by any stretch so there's no ascetic attraction.
He's not nearly as wealthy as he claims he is so it can't be admiration for his success.
He's got zero charisma so it can't be his charm.
He's as dumb as a pile of rocks so it can't be they admire his intelligence.
He's got the athletic prowess of a half dead goldfish and the skin tone of one so it can't be his physical ability.
I honestly just can't fathom the appeal.
He appeals to the hateful, and the stupid. He wants to hurt the people they want hurt. It's that simple.
I imagine if you were also as dumb as a pile of rocks you'd think he was perfectly smart.
There is no appeal, they're just too stupid to understand his flaws.
We are talking about Americans here. They aren't the brightest people. So to most of these points they think the opposite.
He reminds them of themselves because he has all the same "qualities" as them. He normalizes autocracy, xenophobia, sexism, racism, moral and ethical hypocrisy, and those are standard "qualities" of conservative Americans.
Because legacy, independent, and basement medias are constantly beaming images of Trump at them, and when they're given no other option of ideas that's the only one they know. That's why I find it hard to believe that Trump is a Russian asset, then it would mean the media is also owned by Russians, but they're not, they're owned by Western billionaires. Trump has been engineered by the ruling class, and so has his popularity.
A lot of people have explanations based on rational reasoning, like if they see the same facts that we do, but reach different conclusions. But these explanations always come off feeling a bit, I dunno, wobbly. What if it's not rational at all? What if it's a form of brainwashing, or something like hypnosis?
What Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin and Viktor Orbán Understand About Your Brain
I think that when a person with a relatively normal level of intelligence hears the word salad that Trump routinely strings together, their response is usually along the lines of: "What the hell is that idiot saying now?"
But when a MAGAT hears him speak, they think: "Well shit. I can't understand what he's saying, and I think I'm pretty smart, so he must be a genius!"
A big part of it that few are willing to look at is the that it is a reaction to the rapid, forceful acceptance of transgender issues in our society and i totally get it. Im not willing to support fascism though just cause i want things to change... im also not willing to argue about this with anyone cause people on both sides of this issue are as closed minded as it gets. edit: i've indulged this more than i planned on. i'm now done responding. I'd be happy to explain myself further, even arguing, but the LGBTQ agenda has taken over the internet and anything i have to say that goes against it gets removed because i'm "being a bigot."... this is fascism guys. MAGA is fascist, LGBTQ is fascist... go ahead and take my words down now. Have a nice day.
Hate to tell you but I'm non binary. I'm 49 and knew in 1978 that I was the wrong gender.
I'm also neurodivergent and there is compelling evidence that there is a connection between gender dysphoria and neurodivergant disorders like adhd and autism.
Maybe accepting trans people is simply learning to accept that people are built different and that something that is part of a person's disability should be accepted because people with disabilities should be accepted.
As a trans person, I absolutely disagree with you on that topic. But I do agree that a lot of the people supporting trump are single-issue voters, whether it be LGBT rights, abortion, immigration, etc.
Have you tried just minding your own business?
You know, just placing "being a bigot" in quotation marks doesn't make you not a bigot. You are very much a bigot. Like, the very definition of one. So if you've got a problem with that, I suggest you take it up with Merriam-Webster.
All of his supporters in 2016 were also bad people. They saw the "grab them by the pussy" tape, they saw him make fun of a disabled person, and thought he was still a worthy candidate for their vote.
Whenever I brought this up to my Trump-supporting aunt (who lives in the UK) she would just wave it off and say, "Oh that's fake news." I genuinely think they're incapable of even entertaining those facts, let alone seeing them and supporting them as you say. It's an absurd level of brainwashing.
Oh, I got sick of Trump so quickly that around a year after he got in office I was just catering discussions with "Why would you support a known and admitted rapist?" Doesn't advance the conversation with those fools, but it certainly ends it.
Belief is social. People struggle to believe things that clash with their in group. They'll go to great lengths to avoid it.
When I actually talk with Trump supporters, it's very clear to me that many don't actually support trump. Or, at least, not the trump we see. It's usually a case of leading a busy life and making the mistake of trusting a news org to tell you the truth of the matter when you have five minutes to catch up. And if you pick one that supports trump ...well you see where this goes. It is admittedly clear that people don't understand the gravity of the situation—but as a result, the 'crime' is usually ignorance, not maliciousness. As always, the fact that this is a 'political' topic muddies the water, and no one understands what the other side actually wants. We do agree on most things, it's just silly tribalism that makes us call a large portion of the population a "piece of shit".
There are always those outliers that are genuinely evil, but I do believe they're outliers.
I am sure they are out there, but I haven't actually met an open Trump supporter who isn't an unhinged lunatic. In a few cases, we have gone a lifetime without their awful politics coming out, until Trump comes up and then they are actually unashamed fascists, Christian nationalists, and conspiracy guzzling assholes.
Personally I don't care to characterize em as lunatics, because that word really only serves to categorize them into an entirely different realm of brain function, and I feel like that's counterproductive and misrepresents how fascism works. It's not that millions of people lose their minds and frothingly support fascism, it's that fascism is capable of presenting itself as something else, or necessary, to an otherwise normal in-group base using a number of psychological weak points, many of which have been exacerbated in the Internet age with little popular understanding.
To name one example, I think of some folks I knew in my hometown, brilliant engineers, electricians, people with extreme talent in one specific thing, living in places where diversity has been historically squashed so they've only known a snow globe's worth of the world. And, especially among the older generation, they're simultaneously not very social media savvy but also way too online... Once they're given a nebulous external force to fear, the final stop of that train should be a surprise to no one.
I don't say this to absolve fascists of personal blame, because well and truly fuck 'em, they are responsible nonetheless. But fantasizing that their brains are just broken and don't function like ours is missing the point. Everyone's susceptible to a grift, social media bubble, or wishful thinking of some kind. And when you factor in trauma as a politically neutral psychological force, human behavior suddenly becomes a lot less "stupid" and a lot more... frustrating. Pretending we're not weak to analogues of many of the same things is doing ourselves a disservice. We need a better standard than just doing what they do when they talk about trans people like we're space aliens incapable of reason.
To be fair, that's likely because the more reasonable ones are smart enough to know it's stupid to openly proclaim support of trump. It's likely that outlier group I mentioned that are 'open trump supporters'
"Be careful to attribute malice to actions taken by ignorance".
Something like that, I don't remember the quote correctly.I'd say as a small counter-argument though, the amount of ignorance required to still support Trump is not something simply to hand wave away.
Hanlon's razor -- "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Yeah there's a huge mistake in assuming everyone is some politically engaged online person, most people live their lives and experience politics though media. They saw the media and people freaking out over Trump from the start, yet they experienced little to nothing during his Presidency that negatively impacted their lives in contrast.
Great way to rephrase my point, a lot more concise XD Sometimes I ramble.
Yess! You are so right and people should hear it!
Also I feel like social media and modern news networks have hugely reinforced this "tribalism". Unfortunately, negative news always does better than positive news so I can't see news/social media platforms turning around and trying to slow down this effect.
Glenn Greenwald actually talked about how Trump supporters are famously distrustful of (a) the Security State and (b) corporate media, and so there's only like two news sources that they show positive numbers for trust in - Fox and Newsmax.
What doesn't help is that they do lie about Trump, and make him out to be a literal insurrectionist... Think what you want about him in terms of his politics being colored by racism and Islamophobia (his Muslim ban was pretty nuts), but you can't call the guy an insurrectionist unless you greatly modify what an insurrection is and what it means to insight one. Things like this plus upgrading frivolous financial misdemeanors that megacorporations routinely violate to federal crimes in an effort to remove him from the ballot have a radicalizing effect...
But yeah, IDK, I'd vote for Trump over Biden because he is antiestablishment and his foreign policy is better in the long run.
I don't think one could make that argument in 2020, though. The man led an insurrection attempt. All questions were answered.
In 2021.
He was calling for it during the campaign. Literally stood on a stage and told the Proud Boys to be ready.
Stop trying to act like this shit wasn't painfully obvious from the beginning. 2016, you maybe had some excuses, but after all the shit that happened in the 4 years he was in office, there is not a god damn thing anyone can use as an excuse for voting for him a second time. None.
I mean, the writing was on the wall. Even before the election, he was saying things like: "Oh, they're gonna rig the election against me, folks", and his rhetoric was so toxic that at Republican debates, the moderators were asking him things like: "If you lose the election, will you abide by the peaceful transfer of power?" Which, of course, he didn't agree to.
I mean, yes, he hadn't actually incited people to try to overthrow the government at that point, but he very much was on record saying that that was his intention.
I could make that argument in 2016
There were thousands dead because of his kneecapping of COVID management. There's no excuses for 2020. None.
all i can do is look at our country and let out a big sigh. what will it take for the US to better itself?
An event that simultaneously eliminates the love affair a majority of Americans have with capitalism followed by sufficient legislative representation to push for changes that benefit individuals and not corporations.
A constitutional convention forced by the military as part of the conclusion of a civil war.
to borrow an old phrase: "it would take an act of congress"
From what I see, Trump is indicative of a growing trend, generally by conservatives to bring religion and their beliefs into government.
Trump is more absolutist and authoritarian than many other political candidates that I have seen.
To my best understanding of the current climate of the people who support him, they want more authoritarian control over what other people do. Partly in an effort to make themselves more comfortable in their own social interactions with others. So their assumptions of things like, women have curves, and men wear pants and have beards, and men like women and women like men, etc, are always correct, despite the fact that reality disagrees with them.
They're always on the lookout for any way for them to improve their socio-economic standing as well, with the basic concept of more for me, less for everyone else.
I believe that to them, Trump is a means to an end. Less for everyone else, more for them. More of their rules, and values, imposed on others, whether others want it or not.
Take for example, gay marriage. IMO, it's just marriage, eg. Two people who love eachother pledging their intention to continue to love and support eachother. My view is starkly contrasted by their view of "marriage is between a man and a woman before God!" (Or similar). Something something, the sanctity of marriage.... Blah blah. Nobody seems to care about divorce rates though the writings they're imposing on others pretty clearly state that marriage before God is a joining of souls in permanent matrimony and cannot and will not be broken. Ever. But I digress. Since they're opposed to gay marriage, they don't want it to be allowed, though it's clearly discrimination. Arguing about "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" and whatnot. The authoritarian, bull headed, my way out the highway mindset of someone like Trump, can actually achieve such goals. He's absolutist. Whether he believes in the prohibition of gay marriage or not.
On a personal note, I hope all the LGBTQ+ people get all the same rights to be as happy or as miserable as the cis/straight people. You're all fabulous and I love you all as brothers/sisters/siblings (for the gender ambiguous). I personally will continue to support you and fight along side all of you for equality.
Circling back to the point, this viewpoint can be copied and pasted on a number of issues that the right may not feel that they are properly represented on. Another good example is abortion; but that has mostly played out with the whole roe v. Wade thing, so I won't go into more detail there, despite the fact that I have a lot of things to say about it.
I think that demonstrates the point. They don't value him for what/who he is, they value him more for what he can do for them... To accomplish their goals and impose their ideals on everyone else. His ethical deficiencies and disregard for anyone's opinion, well-being, and opinion, are desirable features for them.
They're pushing for oppression of anyone who is different from them, trying to move up their capitalist ladder of success. Trump is just the latest tool that they're trying to use to accomplish that goal.
Meanwhile the supreme court is hearing a case that may make it impossible for the feds to regulate anything. The Koch brothers (America's oligarchs) are behind it. They are still mad about the regulations on oil drilling waste.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/26/charles-koch-us-government-rightwing-supreme-court
I'm still confused why some of the right wing people do some things. This is a good example of something I cannot make sense of. I can only guess it's in the same vein as absolute freedom, which is a core philosophy for some people, not necessarily just right wing people.
IMO, government regulations can, and often do, help the country as a whole. Absolute freedom borders on anarchy too closely for me.
“marriage is between a man and a woman before God!
Ummm.. but what about all the men in the bible with many wives. There was no one man one wife thing in almost the entire Bible. Almost all of the people who are touted to be amazing examples of God's peopel... were polygamists... and since that wasn't enough, they would have the concubines on the side. Point that out and they run away.
Ummm… but what about all the men in the bible with many wives. There was no one man one wife thing in almost the entire Bible. Almost all of the people who are touted to be amazing examples of God’s peopel… were polygamists… and since that wasn’t enough, they would have the concubines on the side. Point that out and they run away.
There's several points in the Gospel where Christ points at a departure from this though, right, like in Matthew 19 and Matthew 22, but the most poignant passage is 1 Corinthians 7:
2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
The purpose of getting married is the relief of sexual lust - and since we are talking about just relieving it, the idea of having multiple wives or concubines on the side is a perversion of this. We can even look at the story of King David and Bathsheba as an example of why you shouldn't covet moaaarr wamen. It has been pointed out before that, like, adultery and lust are so powerful and pertinent that 2 of the 10 commandments are about it...
So i would say that one of the clarifications that exist, and one of the new usherings in of Christianity, is strict monogamy, and also praise for monasticism...
I think it's simpler than that. Conservatism, at its core, has always been a purely reactionary opposition to liberal and progressive politics. In the modern era, it has felt the need to wrap itself in something resembling a positive ideology which presents thinly falsifiable policy positions, regardless of how narrow and mutable those ideological boundaries might be. Because until recently, abject, reactionary nihilism has been seen as a losing position.
Trump has freed conservatives from that burden. No longer do they need to create and defend any flimsy intellectual basis for their reactionary stances - Trump has presented a completely liturgical basis for conservative nihilism, and in doing so, he has freed millions of anti-intellectual CHUDS from the burden of thinking, and they love him for it.
Conservatism, at its core, has always been a purely reactionary opposition to liberal and progressive politics. In the modern era, it has felt the need to wrap itself in something resembling a positive ideology which presents thinly falsifiable policy positions, regardless of how narrow and mutable those ideological boundaries might be.
Well, there's two major divides within conservatism as it plays out today, right?
Classical liberalism, we can call one, and then populist conservatism...
Classical liberal Republicans/Libertarians are highly principled and highly progressive with very positive, engaging values - think about these old guys like Paul Findley who were fundamentally isolationist, anti-war, pro-Palestine conservatives, that truly believed in Hayek's Constitution of Liberty and that the key to bettering humans is through decentralization of power, minimal government, and human freedom.
And then there is conservatism that goes back to, like, tradition or populism.
Of course, these things often combine, but I think you need to treat conservatism with a lot of nuance because otherwise you are just dismantling a strawman.
Because until recently, abject, reactionary nihilism has been seen as a losing position.
Revolutionary nihilism is how radical liberalism was portrayed by Dostoevsky in the Devils - a great book - and it does make sense, because we see at its root that some of these radical movements actually were about reinventing all of society around totally new principles and annihilating what has hitherto been normalized in Western civilization...
Yes, there is like the Nietzschean reactionaries who want to build the New Man, but yeah, it's still a losing position. I do not even think that guys like BAP are even on that level - like some of the hardcore neopagan LARP squad certainly envisions a completely new basis to muh Western civilization. But it's not like Varg Vikernes is a viable option - in spite of how wildly popular Black Metal became after hipsters getting into blackgaze and shit after ironic Pitchfork album reviews, not even one of the most seminal figures in the genre can be anything much more than a joke for having these beliefs.
I think one of the problems we have is the paranoia about this stuff - you act as if the right is really some monster that is rising to swallow the country in a wave of Fascism, but it's not the right who are anywhere near successfully removing their opponents from ballots.
I think it's simpler than that--life was just better before Biden and after Obama.
I mean, unless you were one of the several hundred thousand people who died or lost loved ones to COVID for entirely preventable reasons. Or someone who's not a complete shit human being who actually cares about their country being a democracy. But yeah. If you are a shit human being and you believe that COVID was caused by 5G networks or something, then sure. Trump was a great president.
The worst part is that it’s not only Americans who are Trumpists. We’re Swedish and my mother looks up to that prick. How and why, I don’t know.
She wants to talk about immigration in your country, but can't.
We’ve discussed it before, it’s not that. It’s the anti-vax, illuminati-believing “secret hand sign” crowd that she’s part of…
If you support trump now.... You are a Natzi ... Full stop.
Even in 2016 it was obvious what kind of person he was. His "good" supporters claimed that being President would change him for the better. We all knew then that they were wrong. We all know now that they were lying.
This. There were plenty of articles pointing out how Trump supporters were already saying "he doesn't REALLY mean that" about the extreme policies he was pushing.
If a presidential candidate promises to something horrible, you take it seriously and vote against him. The end. Except we as Americans don't know that.
They’ll proudly wear I’m a shit person badge if it means bringing Trump back to power
Sadly and most disturbing is the knowledge that the people wanting to elect him back into office are the very people who will mostly be destroyed by his being in office, and the ones who will be the first to be forgotten and trampled in the ensuing horror shitshow.
The media needs a horse race. A horse race keeps an eye on the page or the TV. That brings in more advertising dollars. That's what it's all about.
The news used to be a loss-leader. It hasn't been for a very long time.
All spineless and subservient, in my experience. Whether to "God, guns, or country" cuckolds, the whole lot of them.
2020: And some of them, I’m sure, are good people.
Trump is charismatic because he's a narcissist. Not in spite of it, but because there's a direct causal link.
This plays into a host of factors for the afflicted, including poor self esteem, familiarity with (and abuse from) other narcissists, and a whole lot more. This is very, very bad news because it suggests that a huge swath of the country is coping with some degree of mental health problems. The current system is pretty good at handling full-blown disorders, but anything less gets a pass or maybe is held at bay with minimal intervention. The bad part is that folks are predisposed to overt manipulation like we've seen in the last two presidential elections, because of it.
Upside is that enough people are self-aware and this search text auto-completed for me. But good grief are there a lot of results: https://www.google.com/search?q=why+do+i+find+narcissists+attractive
Edit: Usually I like posting things like this along with a solution, rather than just alarming people. In this case, I feel the need to post the core problem at hand, so that maybe people can see what they're actually up against, and focus their efforts in the right place. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the right answer is here, but I'm willing to talk to anyone about it. Thanks for reading.
NYT should say that
NYT SHOULD SAY THAT.
NYT will never say what is actually the truth with Trump and his supporters for the simple reason that they are unable to do so.
Journalism Error. Reboot Democracy? (y/n):
People don't like being told they can't do/have something, even if it is bad for them or they don't actually want to do it. Like how dogs will bark at closed doors (Barrier Frustration) or telling a kid to clean his room makes him not want to do it. Trying to keep him off of the ballot or putting him in prison, even if it is the legal consequence of his own actions, makes people want to vote for him more.
What might be excusable of dogs and children may not be so for voting adults.
I would rather have dogs and children vote then some of these MAGAheads.
I hate this take so much. I see it all the time. "We can't kick Trump off the ballot! I mean, yes, he's a traitor, and yes he tried to overthrow the government, and yes we have a specific clause of a constitutional amendment that is meant to prevent traitors from assuming office again, but think of how much better it would be if he's allowed to run anyway and he loses???"
Ok. But what if he wins? If he wins, we can say goodbye to the form of government we've had for the last 250 years. That shit's out the window the second that traitorous fuck takes office. Gone. You really want to risk that just so that the optics are better?
People like Trump for the fascism. So yeah, they're all assholes and always have been.
They were proud when Hilary called them 'deplorable.' If the Times called them out, it would just prove what they already believe; that they are being oppressed by the elites.
The persecution complex they have is unshakeable.
Losing your privilege feels like oppression.
No I don't think I'll excuse any of his voters. I could see he was a budding fascist in 2015, if you voted for him in 2016 you're a piece of shit.
What changed between 2020 and 2024 that makes it more unacceptable now?
The insurrection.
The stolen classified documents
More than 1.1 million deaths due to COVID.
I guess the really dumb people have had time to catch up.
Like, they're a basket of deplorables or something?
I get that people are super emotional about the upcoming election, i am too. But this kind of emotion, and the feelings i see posted on this thread have no use to anyone.
Why do we hate the people who are easily fooled rather than the people who are doing the fooling?
Will openly hating them and showing superperiority to them make them change or just make us feel better?
How long and how loudly will "left wing" voices need to be (voices like this tweet i mean), how open will their distaste for right wing (citizens) have to be, before we on the left start wondering whether the party we believe in has the "moral superiority"it claims to?
I am starting to feel like you could just switch a few words around and then the shit we believe about them and the shit they believe about is identical, in a fun house mirror kinda way
I think the post is literally implying that in previous elections, you absolutely could make the argument that people were being fooled, but that's no longer true. People voting for this guy are doing so not because they've been tricked, but because they want to and are doing so with open eyes.
I thought it was because people like Asmongold make youtube videos indirectly encouraging it, saying stuff like "He's actually gonna win the election due to the power of memes and his stupid NFT's, WOW OMG GUYS! How many of you voted for him! Let's POLL it!".
Yeah. At this point (honestly by 2020 no matter what) there's no question. The only two possibilities are a multi-million-Democrat conspiracy against him, or the dude's guilty of 21 major crimes related to election theft.
But Trump voters actually support the idea that it's ok for the Republican to steal an election. Simple as that.
Interesting point. Here in the UK we tried providing fact checked information to everyone during Brexit. Look how that turned out.
I've come to the conclusion that i need to give up and let the right wingers be right wingers. That leaves one the option to feel superior, especially when those voting further right are clearly ignoring the facts, and can't claim they don't know about them.
The folks who have and will be profiting from brexit spent quite a bit of money convincing folks to vote against their best interests and leave. How can providing "boring" facts an interested party must search for be nearly as effective as an advert if they never become interested? Of course it cannot be as effective.
For our part it's fine to feel superior cuz it's a natural and necessary human emotion, but putting that frustration online like this is leaning into it. It feels nasty to me, and it makes me think of the low, the lowest quality comments i have seen in right wing spaces.
This meandering reply's only point is to say if we really want to dehumanize the opposition we had better take a fucking hard look at what that means and why
Why do we hate the people who are easily fooled rather than the people who are doing the fooling?
The problem is willful ignorance. A lot of Trump supporters knew better from day 1 and chose to be easily fooled. I had a friend when I was a kid who used to cheer on the defendants in court cases when he thought they were guilty of heinous crimes because they got to "fuck with the system" if they got off. People like that grew up to vote for Trump because he would "fuck with the system".
I think it's ok to hate someone who voted for Trump BECAUSE they wanted to elect an enemy of the majority. It might not be productive to hate them, but it's okay to.
How long and how loudly... how open will their distaste for right wing
We're dumb evil immoral pedophiles who are going to hell, and every time we try to cooperate with them in any way they backstab us and then blame us. What exactly are we losing standing up to them when they're going to punch us whether or not we do?
I am starting to feel like you could just switch a few words around and then the shit we believe about them and the shit they believe about is identical
The concept is assymetry. The most obvious (Godwinian) example is to take virtually any anti-Nazi quote and intersperse the word "Jew". All of a sudden it becomes horrible and bigoted. You can absolutely then take any anti-Jew bigotry and say the word "Nazi", and it suddenly becomes just and true.
Why? Because Trump Supporters and Democrats ARE fundamentally different. The best answer to the paradox of tolerance says that tolerance is a social contract - we are to be tolerant to those others who accept to follow that contract, but it can be open season (in terms of intolerance, not violence) for those who do not.
Why? Because Trump Supporters and Democrats ARE fundamentally different.
I don't think that's true, at all. I've been lucky enough to have some conversations with Trump voters and they have indeed said some dumb ass shit. But nothing unexpected, they're all from fox n shit
After we get past the fox talking points and bullshit we are the same.
I don't think it's about feeling some kind of superiority. I think it's important to keep telling each other this so we remember - this is who they are. They are not rational thinking individuals.
The reason being that we cannot waste any time or energy thinking they can be redeemed. All our energy needs to be spent on making sure we vote and everyone we know votes. Because they will be voting and voting Trump, and won't be changing their minds. And that vote is a threat to our freedoms and our democracy.
Trump supporters can all starve.. you can eat shit when you're hungry..
Facts.
I remember when my older sister said she's would vote Bush because she's was worried about her children's future and tur'rists. In her mind, if she's didn't vote conservative, her children's would suffer, somehow.
I'm The Mighty Kräcken and I approve this message.
I'm still gonna vote for him over the genocider in chief.
You're a shit human being if you support the US. Whatever weakens the US and causes internal chaos is better for most of the rest of the world.
Hate the US or love the US, US stability has a direct causal link with global stability.
This isn't your average every day case of TDS.
This is "advanced" TDS. 😂
Yep. Same for Biden supporters though. They are Nazis's actively supporting Genocide.
You either vote for a fascist piece of shit or a genocidal zionist piece of shit.
Almost like bourgeois "democracy" is rigged for capitalism to begin with...
Lol whatever kiddo.
Explanation provided below, was responding to a trasnphobe and response was misdirected. Think he deleted his comment.
I can see where the confusion is. I was responding to @thoughtorgan and the parent comment was deleted so my comment is out of context.
Oh well. 🤷♂️
Bad person brushes off a good point because he doesn't like the truthChecks out for a Trump voter.^misunderstanding
I'm kinda surprised I'm getting down voted for pointing out someone has a bigoted opinion about an issue they have no knowledge about. As someone whose actually been dealing with gender dysphoria since the 1970s I've become rather knowledgeable about the subject and as someone careening towards 50 I don't have the patience to coddle bigots.
If that makes me unpopular then oh well.
