wtf is a catholic hospital? you get wine and crackers while you wait in purgatory?
The kind that demon mother teresa ran. Where care is secondary to conversions
Edit: i said conversations. Lol
Faith healin’, money stealin’! Git it all in ONE PLACE!!
She who believed that people suffering was a good thing, actually... Seriously, the more someone learns about her, the more vile she is
the only 2 hospital networks in my area are literally named Trinity and Genesis, very blatant religious connotations there.
Catch some deathbed conversions mostly.
Perhaps Catholic institutions shouldn't be forced to perform actions against their beliefs, but then they don't get to use the word "hospital" in relation to whatever their building does.
I feel this should apply to pharmacies too. If you want to have pharmacists that can deny you valid prescriptions from your doctor, then they don't get to call that building a "pharmacy". Just like cigarettes there should be a large lettered warning on the door to the establishment informing you that the person inside has indicated they will deny you a prescription if they feel like it. If the pharmacists want to exercise their moral discretion, they don't get to use the word "pharmacy" for whatever building/business they're doing it in.
Agreed. If you want to be a pharmacist, then be prepared to dispense contraceptives. If that conflicts with your religious beliefs, then you better figure our what you're going to do with your life before you become a pharmacist.
If y our religion dictates that you not perform life saving procedures, Then you have no business being in medicine.
I simply don't want religious anything that is essential services.
What the fuck even is a catholic hospital? Praying the pain away? Offering a free confession close to death?
Surely they are not making use of modern medicine based on science that defies their beliefs.
They’re just hospitals. In fact they’re the biggest group of non-profit hospitals in the country. They are generally speaking a very good thing. The main problem as discussed here is their restrictions on reproductive care, which is a huge problem and should not be allowed. It isn’t even like to be employed there you must be Catholic, or even Christian.
Religion makes some BIG BUCKS so they invest in things like universities and hospitals.
A lot of historical institutions have religious backing.
I'm not saying I support it. I just follow the money. (Tinfoil hat)
Didn't most early hospitals in the west start as Christian hospitals?
Religious hospitals? What will they think of next!
At least in countries that charge patients money for their healthcare, these religious hospitals are free, right? Given how much money Christianity makes in donations, and given that their whole religion is all about helping others for nothing in return and without judgement, it would make sense they'd run free hospitals providing healthcare for all, no matter their situation ♥️
At least in countries that charge patients money for their healthcare, these religious hospitals are free, right?
A few, but not remotely all. It's really up to the individual hospital.
Then you've got the weird case of St. Jude's which is somehow not a Catholic hospital despite literally being built as a shrine to St. Jude Thaddeus (patron saint of hopeless causes) by a Catholic man to fulfill a promise he made to build a shrine to St. Jude. St. Jude's also does not charge patients for treatment, travel, housing, or food though they will bill insurance where possible.
I don't want religious institutions near healthcare. Imposing attitudes of abstinence only moral puritanism on others. Thats not medicine. Like the WHO said 7 almost 8 years ago drug use needs to be globally decriminalized to remove attitudes of discrimination from health care settings. And at the time then nobody foresaw roe v wade being knocked back and turning the clock of social progress back 5/6 decades+ i wish j could say things cant get any worde but they can and they will. So we don’t need the people making things worse involved in the administration of medical care. We already have too many religious bigots with hoarded wealth whispering in the ear of the dumbest moron on the planet who has control of the nuclear football. And healthcare is already bastardized by the incentives of shareholder profits and the vultures of the for profit insurance industry whos sole purpose is tk deny people adequate health care to boost profits whenever possible so lets not shove religion down the throats of people who are often denied basic dignities.
If abortion is an option, it is the only option worth considering.
The only kids who should be carried to term are the ones that have been planned and prepared for.
This is my reason for my answer to the pro-choice question. It is only a baby once you have decided to carry it to term. Before that decision it isn't.
Dual homicide if you kill a pregnant woman who wanted a child. Not a baby when aborting an unwanted pregnancy.
Deny owner class slave labour.
There is no excuse to have more than one kid unless you are able to properly provide for all of them.
I understand being poor with one child though, I don't understand the need to spread limited resources over multiple children.
Focus on getting family out of poverty first.
There is no excuse
There's the problem. Instead of letting other people make their own choices, you're prescribing what they should and shouldn't do.
If you told me in my face "there's no excuse to have more than one child" while i want multiple children, i would see it as an assault and would react accordingly (that might include punching you in the face.)
unless you are able to properly provide for all of them.
That's what we need UBI (Universal Basic Income)
By the way, what you're saying feels the same as in the 1960 when women were expected to carry children (without being asked, of course). Just as we condemn that today, we should condemn people pushing other people to have fewer children.
I rotated through a Catholic hospital while getting my degree in genetic counseling. Our whole job was to give women with pregnancies at high risk of genetic conditions all the information they needed to make an informed decision on how they want to move forward, and we weren't even allowed to mention the option of abortion. I was very glad when that rotation was over.
I would really like to see someone who is getting their degree or license push back on the requirement to rotate through a religious hospital, on the grounds that it violates the religious freedoms of the students.
If we’re going to have unconstitutional religious freedom laws, we may as well try and use them against our oppressors.
Wow
I thought the term "catholic hospital" was a joke. That doesn't even make sense to me.
Something like 15% of hospitals in the US are Catholic hospitals.
True story about catholic hospitals, Sometimes, when a woman comes in having a miscarriage, catholic hospitals will just push her to the parking to die so Jesus won't judge them for performing an abortion.
Homicide via medical neglect is totally fine as long as it's done so the hospital staff doesn't go to hell.
Reclassify abortion as an exorcism, get a priest chanting some Latin during the procedure and done.
If they don't want to perform particular procedures based on their faith then they can call themseves a "Western Faith Therapy Centre"
"Western"? No, thank you.
I was going to suggest "Southern European" as an alternative but when you get down to it, everyone in their canon is from North Africa and the Middle East so maybe "Middle Eastern Faith Therapy Centre"?
How come 90% of these twitter screenshots I see on lemmy are all just witty comebacks to fake opinions that nobody actually holds? This is like those "feminist gets rekt with facts and logic" compilation videos on youtube, but for liberals. Poking fun at strawmen every once in a while is entertaining, but it gets old really quickly.
If they want to have an argument on the Internet they don't need to make up a bad take; it's an abundant resource on the web.
Sadly, I have met actual Catholics who believe this.
I think we should also force chuck e cheese to perform abortions.
fun for the whole family!
Instead of doctors we'd have AI controlled animatronics doing the deed.
A hospital is just a building and the organization that owns the building.
The real question is, should hospitals be allowed to force or forbid doctors from providing medical care?
A doctor (Catholic or not) should never, and can never, be forced to perform a medical procedure, including abortions. And they also shouldn't be forbidden from performing a medical procedure.
Hospitals just provide rooms and equipment so that doctors can provide the care that their patients need, within their ability to provide that care.
If a doctor refuses to perform a medically necessary procedure because of his/her religion, as far as om concerned that should invalidate their medical license immediately.
This is really it. If a doctor has a moral objection to abortions, maybe gynecology wasn't the right discipline for them to practice. That's on them, and they should be upfront about it being a personal moral objection and for them to seek another doctor.
I'm fine with that compromise, because I suspect those doctors are and will remain the minority, and everyone's rights are preserved.
But if a chief of medicine, or worse, a board of non-doctors, says their hospital won't perform abortions on religious grounds? Then fuck you, you're not a hospital, you are a faith-based healing center, and need to be treated as such.
Hospital administration needs to be science-based care and check their religion at the door, especially if they aren't directly practicing. They shouldn't be making decisions that directly effect people that they are indirectly related to based upon someone's interpretation of an old anthology of fables.
That's fine. Just don't expect to keep your medical license as you sit around doing nothing as people die of preventable deaths.
If you're a doctor, your job is to save lives. If you intentionally fail to do that job it shouldn't be your job.
If a firefighter refused to put out a fire because they didn't feel like it, they'd be lose their job too.
I disagree somewhat. If a doctor is practicing in a situation where an abortion is necessary, it was their duty to not be a doctor if they find that morally repugnant.
should hospitals be allowed to force or forbid doctors from providing medical care?
They provide the facilities, which includes administration and legal and billing. So in that regard, they have to have some kind of say, simply because they need to stock the equipment, train the nurses/MAs, and establish standard protocols for a given procedure. Otherwise, how do you contest a medical malpractice claim?
A doctor (Catholic or not) should never, and can never, be forced to perform a medical procedure, including abortions. And they also shouldn’t be forbidden from performing a medical procedure.
Doctors can and do regularly incur liability if they fail to perform certain necessary medical procedures, particularly in emergency room settings. A doctor that fails to follow protocol can be subject to malpractice. If, for instance, a Christian Scientist doctor refused to provide a blood transfusion to an individual suffering from sever blood loss or a narcotics prohibitionist doctor attempts to do surgery without providing anesthesia, they can get in some serious trouble.
Religious convictions don't override medical protocols. What's at issue is the legality of the protocols as they stand. Can a woman whose health is at risk from pregnancy receive an abortion without the doctors incurring criminal liability?
Right now, it appears that State AGs in prohibitionist states are threatening the licenses and freedoms of doctors who would provide life-saving care. Hospital administrators are acting as intermediaries because the hospital itself would suffer legal liability if staff knowingly permitted/facilitated an illegal procedure.
Imagine I'm a doctor who refuses to prescribe medication because it makes people weak.
We have a Catholic hospital here in the city where I live in Ontario. Being publicly funded makes what they do different from the American ones, but despite doing women's health and obstetrics they don't do tubal ligation unless it's approved by their board, so even if you had a planned c section and were planning on having your tubal during the procedure, if you had to have your c section on an emergency basis because you labour early, they won't do it. It's so fucked up. It's a good hospital but come on. It's 2025, most Catholics use birth control. If you don't want to do abortions, fine, but a tubal during a c section is really just saving someone a second surgery.
they don’t do tubal ligation unless it’s approved by their board
So they aren't above doing the procedure entirely? They're just persnickity about who is "worthy" of receiving the service?
If you don’t want to do abortions, fine
It's crazy how a life-saving procedure is off-the-table on the "Pro-Life" grounds.
Well I mean what are called therapeutic abortions. Not someone who needs a D and C for tissue that didn't pass spontaneously or something. The Americans are crazy in that regard. If a pregnancy is nonviable it isn't therapeutic abortion.
Rather not, I'd be worried they'd "fuck up" on purpose.
I'd like to believe that the vast majority of doctors care about the lives of their patients and are capable of weighing that against the viability of the fetus.
Or even accidentally. I'd prefer my doctors to be familiar with the procedures they do. I don't want the doctor that hasn't done something in a decade of there's another option reasonably available.
Plus it's probably way easier for them to fuck kids at a Chuck E. Cheese. Actually it's probably easier at the hospitals but the supply is larger at the Chuck E. Cheese.
Same amount of body fluids.
your loss is our sauce
Our Lady St. Helen Henny
Not a meme.
Look, I'm with you, and I used to be one of the people making this same comment, but you have to give it up. This is what Gen Z or whoever has decided counts. We don't win.
Most of "GenZ or whoever" has just decided to leave Lemmy. The user count here is steadily dropping.
Today Lemmy learns that, in fact, the Catholic church has historically provided health care and education, according to their beliefs, over hundred of years
Ok, and?
I honestly disagree.
If i'm a programmer working at a company, and that company asks me to write code that would enable autonomous rockets for warfare (like armed drones), i might refuse because i have ethical concerns about it. But i'm still a programmer.
From the view of catholic hospital staff, providing abortions might be murder, and they have ethical concerns about it. They are still a hospital.
Nah, for the catholic hospital staff they probably shouldn’t have a job if it goes against their personal ethics.
But organizations do not have religion.
Does refusing to program a drone prevent a cancer patient from receiving treatment? Do these drones prevent organ rupture in ectopic pregnancies? When asked to program armed drones, are you also sitting face-to-face with a person who is suffering or dying because you aren’t actively programming them?
The denial of healthcare involves victims. Nobody’s hurt when you refuse to do a drone-programming job, but witholding a medically-necessary abortion directly results in avoidable human suffering. That’s the key difference that makes these situations incomparable.
In both your programmer case and the case of the catholic hospital staff member you have a very clear option, you can not work at that facility. Don't want to write code for military weapons, cool then work somewhere that doesn't do that. Don't want to provide abortions at your work, cool then work in a medical facility that doesn't provide them. Many facilities don't perform abortions just because they aren't intended to, such as clinics etc so you should work there.
Your programmer case also doesn't make sense because extending the metophor you want companies to be allowed to not develop software that is used by the military...they can already do that.
Ok but your thing is an actual problem and their thing is a made up non-problem which it is their job and (ironically) sacred hippocratic duty to perform.
The real irony is that, while Hippocrates was not a Christian, the hippocratic oath forbids doctors to perform abortion.
Today, doctors take an amended oath in most countries with a few changes but the original Hippocratic oath tries to instill a reverence for life in the practitioners of medicine.
Then don't get a job at a defense company. If you don't want to provide abortions, don't get a job at a hospital.
It's funny how even catholic views are considered unacceptable now by the liberal society. This is the paradox of your tolerance: you want to accept all kinds of different people for as long as they are the same in what they believe.
I see no reason for catholic medical institutions to provide services they believe to be immoral, I don't personally, but so what of it, they should not be forced to do it.
It seems that in the US, people are taking more radical and unreasonable attitudes towards abortions(that applies to both sides). Some people may feel the need to defend abortions from anything. But I believe that tolerance should not be cast away for zealotry.
I see no reason for catholic medical institutions to provide services they believe to be immoral
If they let their backwards sexist standards for what is "immoral" get in the way of medical services, they shouldn't fraudulently call their facility a hospital.
Okay but what happens if a pregnant person gets brought into the ER of a Catholic hospital and they need an immediate abortion or they die. The hospital doesn’t want to perform it because of religion. Should the hospital just let the patient die against the patient’s will? The patient didn’t had a choice into which hospital they were brought in. And this isn’t just a hypothetical this situation has played out in real life. Just look at Ireland.
What's next, jehovian hospitals that'll refuse ppl blood transfusions? Maybe amish hospitals that'll treat 'em with 100% organic snake oil?
I mean, you're either a medical institution, and then you do whatever is legal to help the patient, or you're a sect, and then you tell ppl how they should live their lives according to a bunch of long-dead dudes. Not both.
I would say, morality always comes into play when you decide which actions are permissible and which are not when it comes to healthcare, from designing legislation and hospital policy, to decisions doctors take on the spot, whether it is secular morality or religious(for example, many people oppose euthanasia, and not necessarily for religious reasons). I see no reason to discredit catholics and their moral views, I respect them, and see the appeal and logic of condemning abortion, even if personally I am not a catholic.
What makes your morality better than religious morality?
'Even catholic'. Fuck me i lolled
So up until recently Catholic views were accepted by "liberal" society?
Stop it.
The problem is that in many areas there are no alternative institutions for someone to receive care. Choosing to go to another non-religious hospital is often not an option in many places. I live in a major metro and the majority of hospitals here are religiously affiliated. It's not a matter of allowing a few random institutions to uphold their beliefs, it's an institutional problem when a person cannot receive valid medical care because of the objections of a religion. If you live in a small town with a single hospital, and the next closest one is an 8 hour drive away, then that hospital should be required to provide all FDA approved treatments the doctors are physically capable of administering.
I'm all for allowing people to practice their religion however it best suits them to do so, until it negatively interferes with the lives of others. When your religion starts preventing people from accessing widely approved and safe healthcare, then your beliefs should not be protected. I don't care if you're Catholic, Muslim, or Pastafarian - you have no right to prevent someone from accessing healthcare because of your beliefs.
This situation is unfortunate, I suppose, but your government is not preventing anyone from getting these services in many states, and as of now, it does not have to provide all procedures to all the people. If you want your government to ensure that all approved procedures are easily accessible, and not leave it to the free market, it should actually manage it's own hospitals, rather than force catholic ones to do abortions, which to me seems like too much to ask from a religious institution.
what do you mean by "even" catholic views?
There are a lot of catholics in the world, and a lot of them are in the west. In the USA they might be a minority, but it is still weird how hostile people are to this rather popular church that has always been very influential culturally in the west.
It's funnier how the catholic church defends pedophilia on an institutional level, but you "think of the children" types don't seem to care.
Fun fact, the tolerance paradox isn't a paradox. It's a social contract. The contract is to be tolerant. Catholics are intolerant of anything they disagree with. They don't abide by the contract, therefore we aren't obligated to tolerate their bullshit.
Even more fun facts, the late term abortions catholics LOVE to hate-monger about (I went to the march for life I know first hand) make up a tiny fraction of total abortions, and they are almost always emergency situations, or discovered fetus conditions incompatible with life. Any arbitrary ban WILL kill women, and disproportionately kill women who actually want children. Three women died in Texas in November alone due to abortion laws.
I'm sure there can be some reasonable agreement that gives doctors greater discretion while not allowing elective late term abortions or whatever you think is happening, but for right now, you're killing actual people.
I am not opposed to abortion, personally, nor is it banned anywhere in my country. I also have not killed anyone yet, but I'll yet you know if anything changes. However, I am not particularly interested in forcing chrstians to accept secular morality.
The paradox I am referring to, is not in the fact that people that preach tolerance should be tolerant to everyone. I am instead pointing out the fact that western progressive culture, while preaching diversity, do not actually accept people that disagree with them, so inclusivity is contingent on acceptance of certain views, in that sense, this "diversity" is skin deep, we only accept you if you already agree with us.
This is similar to how christians have historically thought, ironically. So while blaming catholics of being intolerant of everything they disagree with, it seems like you are doing exactly that.
Because catholics are known for their tolerance.
Catholic priests raps kids for centuries. Fuck em.
