This quote by [email protected] is a good thing to keep in mind. I'm not going to lock it because it genuinely seems to be helping some people. I'm getting reports though, so remember to be excellent to each other please.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
Edit: fixed author's username.
Men‘s role in society is to be a strong provider that sacrifices for his family, community, and country from carrying heavy things, manual labor, to giving his life in war.
I've been scrolling the comments on this post for a while (longer than I should) and just want to say it is one of the most refreshing collective displays of thoughtfulness and empathy I have read online in far too long. Even the back-and-forwards where people disagree on details or semantics are still overwhelmingly positive, insightful, and respectable on all sides. Another comment here used a brilliant term "merciless insincerity", and personally I've been leaning in a dangerously cynical direction lately about its prevalence. Although I know I am old & resilient enough to not let it capsize me I despise when so much lowest-common-denominator thinking hardens my shell and wallpapers a layer of apathy over who I really am (the angry-yet-optimistic teenager from the 80s/90s who screamed into the void about the climate-emergency, the corrosion of democracy by short-term vote-winning & fundraising, and - more relevantly - the toxicifying impact men and women have had on society - at interpersonal, familial, regional, national, and international scales - by regurgitating thoughtless archetypes and flagwaving in lieu of questioning reality from a fearless standpoint of "open-minded but critical, optimistic but sceptical, confident but fallibilistic". Discussions like these are some of the very few bastions of antidote left for that cynicism and apathy. What blows my mind is that it is apparent a nontrivial proportion of you who are young (well, much younger than me) are introspecting and expressing yourselves about the subject better than I ever could. When I see the flood of toxic (and idiotically childish) nonsense almost everywhere else, discussions like these truly help bolster a dangerously scarce resource called "hope for the future", and reinforces for me why about 99.9℅ of my "social online reading" time is spent on Lemmy lately. Gandhi said "be the change you wish to see in the world", and it's worth considering that what you are all writing here is a good example of you doing exactly that (even if you hadn't realised or intended). It adds up, when groups of people give each other the chance to be truly unafraid (instead of "playing tough" - which merely broadcasts how truly afraid someone really is).
Could use some paragraph markers, but otherwise beautifully well put. Glad this is up top right now. Makes me excited to read the rest of the thread.
This sort of situation is how I knew my wife was/is a keeper. When I was pushed to the point where my negative emotions got too much, she was there for me. She didn't shy away, but stepped in to help and support me.
In many of my previous relationships, showing negative emotions was lethal to their feelings. I could be happy, or stoic, but never upset or depressed.
On a side note, I had a chat with a trans friend once, regarding emotions. When they transitioned, the intensity of their emotions didn't change much. However, their ability to contain them plummeted. Basically, men and women feel emotions similarly. Men are just a lot more able to bottle them up.
I'm trans and, until I started HRT, had very little access to my emotions. I would desperately want to cry, and just would be unable. Or I would know I was supposed to be having some kind of emotional reaction to something, and just...wouldn't.
Very very soon after getting my hormones straightened out, I discovered that I was having emotions in sympathy with characters on tv or in movies. If I was sad I could actually cry for a bit and process the emotion rather than having to channel it into anger or physicality. It was like living in color instead of black and white, this whole arena of human experience I'd read about but hadn't ever really felt.
I've heard the same from trans guys as well; they didn't ever feel like their emotions made sense until they got on T.
My now-ex reacted to this, first with concern, then with contempt.
This is very interesting to me.
As a cis male, I do have trouble accessing emotions sometimes.
However movies and music can give me overwhelming emotions. I start crying from the smallest wholesome moments in anime and movies.
There are times in life I wish I could, so I sometimes use music as a tool to trigger the response in myself just so I can get the emotions out and processed.
On a side note, I had a chat with a trans friend once, regarding emotions. When they transitioned, the intensity of their emotions didn't change much. However, their ability to contain them plummeted
In my experience this isn't universal. I'm trans myself, and I've talked about this with a lot of my trans friends and we've all had pretty different experiences with the emotional aspects of transitioning.
Personally, I definitely had a really hard time containing my emotions early transition. They felt so unfamiliar. It felt like I had gained an entirely new set of emotions, and I had to relearn how to cope with them. It didn't help that I was going through the early stages of puberty-which is already a time of heightened emotions-while dealing with the loss of my entire support network.
Now that I'm more settled into my life as a woman: I'm accustomed to how I experience my emotions, I have a loving support network around me, and I'm in a new job where people treat me with respect; I feel like I have a much firmer handle on my emotions than I ever did pre-transiton.
Able to? Maybe, maybe not. Required to? Definitely.
We can never truly say for sure, but it's the closest situation that can give a side by side comparison. Either testosterone allows better emotional inhibition, or estrogen reduces it. The main point is that men aren't emotionless. Our emotions are just as strong as women's, we are just better able to contain them (for better or worse).
Society then amplifies what is already there.
Super socially awkward and anxious in middle school and high school and was also bullied a ton. Girls would ask me out as a joke, and there's no good response. If you say yes you're a dumbass for thinking they're actually interested in you, if you say no you're gay and should kill yourself. Combined with being an impressionable teen with incredibly negative self esteem on reddit at a time where something along the lines of all men are rapists was a common sentiment, it really honestly fucked me up. I still am not comfortable with romance and intimacy with women to be honest.
Female bullying culture is very cruel.
Children are just cruel in general. I have a giant scar on my stomach from an appendectomy gone very wrong and I used to get made fun of for it in the locker room. They called it my C section scar.
in middle school, a girl in my grade died at summer band camp from a bee sting….
a group of girls called me to tell me she wanted to be her boyfriend. i declined, as it wasn’t the first time i had the joke girlfriend trick played on me…
but i guess the prank was, i was supposed to say yes, then be heartbroken when i found out she was dead…
instead i was heartbroken that anyone would try to do that to anyone.I tried to explain to someone that her all men are trash rhetoric isn't gonna help anyone do better and the response was that they didn't care, men should just be better or other men should be responsible for making them better but she sure wasnt. I think she grew out of that.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
Thank you for the warning, kind stranger.
I prefer "monument to all your sins" but hard to disagree.
I'll add to the trauma dump I suppose
Got married in August 2018, the beginning of the next month my dad died of cancer. Obviously I was mourning him and was in a shitty place, my then wife took that as me not being active enough in our relationship and decided to start cheating on me with multiple guys. Once I found out and called her out on it, and also subsequently kicked her out all of a sudden I was the bad guy. I can't even imagine the mental gymnastics she was hopping through to think that was justified.
Anyway I've moved across the country since then and have met who I believe is my soulmate, and things are amazing with her. Just had to go through sewers to find my green pasture I suppose
Consider yourself lucky you didn't have kids with her
A few years ago I was struggling with body image and was starting to feel worthless and invisible in my marriage. When I tried expressing these feelings to my wife (really just trying to make an emotional connection) her response was curt and to the point: "You don't have body image issues. I'm the one struggling with my weight."
And that was it. I've never felt more alone in my life.
I decided to end a relationship and marriage, after being together for 13 years. For the first time in years I put myself first and realised that I needed to be out of the relationship. Coming out of this has been very difficult and I've been struggling with my mental health since.
I started dating again, and have had two horrible experiences where my feelings were just put aside and it really hurt. Both of which ended up with the relationship ending. It's like I'm not allowed to have feelings or struggle. 😞
Similar story here. 21 years and there's a child involved. Even similar 2 instances of dating that involved not being allowed to express my feelings without risking the relationship. So I did and ended both relationships. It would be nice if there was a choice that isn't hard. The only choice we seem to have is which hard we want. Both of which isn't a great ending. I've since given up dating altogether. Resigned to the fact that that part of my life is over. Just being a good and present parent, being nice and helpful to everyone in my life. I don't want to go through life alone but I don't seem to have a choice in that without being a doormat for someone else, which I refuse to do because if I did, I'd be showing my child to put up with never getting what you need from a relationship and that it's normal. I can't do that.
I'm sorry to hear that man. Dating after a long relationship is so hard, but I do hope you come across someone kind who appreciates you for who you are, emotions/feelings and all.
I can't imagine how hard it must be to go through this with a child too, but you sound like a good father.
I fear that I am in a situation that may end the same.
If you're comfortable sharing, was there an epiphany you had that had you bite the bullet and break away?
Honestly, I had been ready to leave for a long time, and I had been caring for them almost 24/7 for years. The main reason I hadn't left was that I was concerned that they'd end their life. There were many reasons why I didn't want to be in the relationship anymore, health aside.
There was an attempt to take their own life and I realised I had no emotion and honestly felt like it would have been easier if they didn't make it. My brother realised something was wrong so came to see me and it all came out. The next day I was trying to just go on like normal but couldn't, something just snapped. She went to stay with her mum and I had time to think and confirm how I felt. This last part was probably the most important, as it was vital to make sure I didn't regret the decision.
My advice would be: be honest, say you need time to think, give yourself the time and space, make sure it's right for you and if so, leave. If they don't give you the chance to think, then I'd say you have your answer. That's much easier said than done however.
Are you also in America, by any chance?
Nope, UK
"Why are men in general so emotionally constipated? omg stop crying like a pussy; we just asked a question!" - the patriarchy, oppressing us all
feminism is for everyone. patriarchy is both against and enforced by everyone
Time to get downvoted for having an opinion, here I go:
In my experience, women were the ones constantly telling me I should be positive, I should smile/laugh more, I should not worry or cry or stuff like that (even lovingly telling me to shush), male friends were MUCH more accepting when it came to my emotional problems (both were equally useless tho).
BUT I don't blame women nor the patriarchy, I blame toxic positivity, as most of us weren't taught how to deal with emotions and came from toxic/broken homes so forcing a positive take on everything and shunning anything that could weaken that bubble was (and still is) the norm and that is genderless, assholery is a human thing, not a male vs female thing.When i was a kid it was the opposite... but in my adult years it's been overwhelmingly women that tried to enforce masculinity on me any time I stepped out of the bounds of masculinity and did something feminine (wear feminine clothes, cry, make a comment getting hit on by men to name a few). I was a closeted trans woman in denial which made it extra annoying whenever it happened. Now that I'm out the women in my life have been extremely supportive so there is that. However whenever I go out in full femme with outfit and make-up I noticed it's women who stare at me, had one lady look me up and down three times pretty deliberately while standing 4ft away from me. I don't always see it as malicious (not that i would care), more like they're curious or maybe even liking fit. But it's an interesting contrast compared to men who seem to give me almost no mind or attention by comparison. It was something I didn't expect.
It's ironically self-unaware victim-blaming to use the male-based word "patriarchy" to describe a set of societal norms and expectations that both sexes are equally responsible for creating and perpetuating. Puts the blame entirely on men and takes women completely off the hook.
Pure sexism.
I say the same about calling the movement feminism
If men are equally welcome in it, it's not feminism anymore, it's egalitarianism, but every woman I've ever seen it suggested to flips their shit while every man I've seen it suggested to goes "yeah that makes sense"
This has nothing to do with men being in position of power, this has everything to do with people having no empathy. If we lived in a matriarchy and people acted the same way they would still be assholes.
Stop using "the patriarchy" as an excuse for vile behaviour. Yes, it exists, but it's made up of a large group of people behaving badly, and one way to break it is to address the individuals one at a time.
Stawp ghashlighting meh
I went through the worst depression of my life around 2017, tried to express these feelings to my gf at the time and explain why our romance was failing or why I spent half the day in bed.
Basically got told "poor you", everyone has struggles, snap out of it and be a man. That definitely helped, and didn't push me even deeper into feelings of worthlessness..
I'm doing ok now, but it was the first time I felt comfortable enough with someone to express those emotions, I was at my wits end. The response was eye opening, never again.
Instead of saying to yourself “never again”, how about “never again with someone who will betray my vulnerability”? Because what happened to you sounds really horrible, but there are people out there who will be with you in your struggles and nurture and build you up in your vulnerable moments.
As a man someone who also struggles with vulnerability, there are ways to test the waters in a relationship (family, friend, partner, etc) when it comes to vulnerability so that you won’t be hurt like that again. I actually watched this video recently and found it really helpful: https://youtu.be/WyKFHd7cSaU?si=J8zSMvZt_7WouQb7
Of course, none of this is easy, but it can be life-changing to open up to someone and feel cared for. I’m glad you’re doing better, and I wish you the best.
I've been in a relationship with my partner for 12 years now and I am lucky that I found someone that was supporting of my issues since pretty much day one.
In the last year, after many years of therapy, I was able to finally be totally vulnerable to my partner even if she always was supportive, not holding anything back, and it was liberating and almost addictive for a while.
The feeling is indescribable and one of the best feeling of my life.
A given group of people are not a monolith. While we do share a lot of similarities, we also all have the potential to be a little different from one another.
I hope you get a chance to find someone that will allow you to be open like that again. Sharing those emotions and having someone their to empathetically receive them is one of the most gratifying things as a human.
I don't know if I want to blame the patriarchy or the toxic masculinity that goes with it, but crap. My ex was so not ok when I cried over the discovery of her affair.
She genuinely thought I was trying to manipulate her. I was "too extremely emotional" over it. We were highschool sweethearts, had a kid, and she always talked about how she was disgusted with her own mother for having an affair. Even to the point where she cut off contact with her mother until they ended that relationship.
"No man goes to bed crying because their wife cheated on them or sends nudes to the same guy 4 years later."
There were red flags earlier than that. "Why are you crying over a movie?" (I always do at emotional bits). "Man up, no one wants to be with someone expresses sadness."
What's worse is that it's pretty much why I don't bother going out, or have much motivation to get back into the dating game. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity has ruined being human to me. I don't want to be friends with people who cover up all their emotions. I don't want to be friends with guys who are clearly over compensating. Then the girls turn around complain about these men being cruel to them, yet state things like this.
Then you have all the men who have this strange belief that they are owed women, and by behaving like that they get the women they are owed. I won't take part in that. I will not hurt someone else just to satisfy my desires. If that means I don't date, I'm much more comfortable being a good person and alone.
I also try to bring it up in conversation, and then people turn around and act like my refusal to participate in patriarchal behavior is anti-social. I had one person point out "technically, you aren't getting any, even though you want it, making you an incel." I was so shocked. Its not the fault of women I'm not out getting laid. Its men. It's the patriarchy. It's this system set up to isolate me because I have an intense emotional awareness.
I'm still surprised people use the old definition of "incel" considering that the connotations changed to "radical misogynist" or "terrorist" in the eyes of the mainstream nowadays. Personally I wouldn't be caught dead using the term to describe anyone who simply doesn't get laid. In 2013 it would be fine but nowadays it's almost slanderous.
you know her better obviously but sometimes you're too close to see some things so here goes my opinion: I think she didn't genuinely think you were trying to manipulate her.
I think she knew it was the appropriate response and she was the bad person so instead of facing that situation and losing the upper hand she thought she could use toxic masculinity to manipulate you to feel bad about yourself as a way to take the heat off of herself.
"you're overreacting", "you're being too emotional" these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time. it's just that it has the added toxic masculinity aspect when the roles are reversed.
That... Actually makes more sense and a thought I was trying to avoid. I know she said a lot of things where she said things to avoid feeling like the bad guy. Unfortunately for her, cheating on your marriage doesn't have a defense.
I'm glad your ex is an ex. I believe it's experiences like yours that highlights how sexism goes both ways. My heart goes out to you.
It only goes one way: from people using gender stereotypes to manipulate others to the victims.
The fact that you can manipulate any gender while being any gender logically follows.
My friend, I am so sorry you went through that. I understand it is incredibly hard to get over a betrayal coupled with an attack like that, but I know you can do it. Let yourself breathe and take your time but when you're ready, there is a whole world of love out there for you.
There are so many people who will cherish the exact part of you that she took for granted. It is easy to go through something like that and come to the conclusion that you should stop feeling. I hope you don't.
As for people saying you're an incel... I literally have no advice other than no longer talking to them. There are people in marriages who are "involuntarily celibate". This could become a rant about the awful nature of even the term "incel" but I think that would be a waste.
I hope you continue to show your strength by refusing to hide your vulnerability.
"My ex cheated on me and rubbed my feelings in the dirt. How can I blame men for this?"
You can't, if you think that women have any agency of their own lmao
I'm so sorry for all those commenters having sad stories and being told to "man up". That's very sad
I might be wrong but I have a feeling that it is a very US influenced problem (so now a very English speaking country problem). Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm influenced because it is Internet and there's plenty of Americans and everything is written in English.
Being born in a French speaking culture, I don't feel that way. My friends don't, my non French speaking friends don't as well. Most men of my generation (millennial) that I have met could express emotions without much problems, and women would not react badly to it, but maybe I'm just lucky.
Of course, there's always some shitty people, some overly manly jerks or non caring women, but I would say that they represent less than 15% of the population I've met in my life (data source: My ass).
So, am I wrong ? Am I influenced by Internet ? How is it for German/Spanish/Portuguese/Italian/Japanese/Whatever cultures ?
And if I'm right, well that sucks. How can we help ?
As a Portuguese (that has also lived in a few other countries in Europe) I would say that it's more that there is a range of emotions that men can express without that being frowned upon were certain things are still frowned upon if you show them openly (mainly around sadness) though for example openly showing tenderness for your partner or children is expected and even approved (unlike certain other cultures were men are expect to be distant).
Mind you, in some cultures the limits on expression of emotions or selectivity about which emotions you are expected to express is pretty high for both men and women (for example, the Dutch in general tend to refrain from expressing much emotion to strangers) and in some cases there is even such a strong expectation that you react in certain ways that it leads to people in general faking expressions of emotion (the English upper and upper middle classes are pretty big on showing the "appropriate" reaction independently of feeling it).
I would say (from contact with Americans and consuming some American media as well as having lived in England) that the expectations on what emotions people should be expressing are quite different and in England they're even very much defined by people's social class (for example, the "English Gentleman" is entirely a façade - all about what you show, not at all about what you think - and occupies the same place in terms of male behaviour expectations for traditional old-money upper class English men as the bossy slightly-angry assertive go-gotter seems to occupy in the US).
So far I generally have seen a tendency for frowning upon grown up men expressing sadness for themselves (though in some countries, not for expressing sadness in empathy with others and their pain, especially if they're close family) and have also noticed equivalent expectations on the expression of emotion by women (for example, it seems to me that middle and upper class English women have a massive weight of social expectations on them in terms of what they're expect to show to others - including the emotions they express - in lots of situations, and a lot of it is about reacting with the "appropriate" emotion in some situations even if they don't feel it)
I don't think the stigmatisation of men showing emotions is exclusively Anglophone culture. I live in Ireland and there isn't really a stigma of men showing emotions because of public awareness campaign about mental health for both men and women. But like you said, I've met couple of overly manly men jerks and uncaring women, but they're the ones not worth your time and in tiny minority.
In any case, some cultures have antiquated machismo mindset which is sporadic across the world.
I am from Spain. When I open to my ex when we were in the process of end our relationship she told me to stop to victimize myself. I think that the relationship started to fell down when I started to be myself in front of her (expressed doubts, weakness, expressing enjoy for things...).
I dont think it is very US influenced problem.
Yeah nobody has ever accused Spain Italy japan India china Pakistan Afghanistan Iran Iraq Egypt.......of behaving similarly, just the commonwealth and the Yankees. You've cracked the code.
It’s cultural. The problem is bigger than any one person. As soon as honest men speak out, they either deal with minimization like in the meme, or worse, support from chauvinistic incels who invalidate their message entirely.
Yeah, I agree, this has the beginnings of incel vibes. Just like every generation has good, bad, poor, rich, each person of any fluid gender has the same. Some are mature in their teens and some don't mature until their 30s. Sounds like his girlfriend was super immature and ignorant.
I've thought about this a fair bit, and I can definitely recall a bunch of cases from primary school and high school when I opened up about my feelings and personal stuff; and it ended badly for me. It ended badly every time, and I reckon that's why I basically don't tell anyone anything about myself now as an adult. I don't even share most stuff with my partner, or my family - such are the scars of past experience.
I'm sure this is similar for many people.
It certainly is for me. I still have difficulty whenever someone tries to compliment me on anything as a result of childhood bullying that frequently took the form of merciless insincerity.
I hope you're doing better. Your life is worth sharing.
That term "merciless insincerity" is an amazingly concise yet thorough way to capture one of the pervasive things I get most frustrated by (across the many countries I've lived in, so it is not a georestricted behaviour). Whenever I try to describe it I get too wordy. I'm stealing that.
People are uncomfortable when a guy expresses negative emotions. Even those that process it well often seem unable to accept it. I hope you (and the rest of you in the comments) have either found a space or a person that you can be yourself around, instead of what everyone else needs you to be.
Imho the worst are those who crucify the patriarchy at every point, then a man chimes in to criticize calmly the words chosen are inappropriate for the given situation, or outright hurtful, then the radical anti-patriarchy combatants shut down that person as the most vile being they deserve to feel terrible. And that guy ill-adjusts, be it on a personal level of despair or combative misogyny, and the anti-patriarchy combatants continue their cycle, because clearly they were right from the get-go, men are misogynistic and don't speak about their problems. Rinse and repeat.
Please, don't be that type of anti-patriarchy fighter. It doesn't matter that you describe yourself as super leftist progressive, if you behave like crap and reinforcing the worst of stereotypes.
I have noticed a pattern in myself, which I suspect could be true for others too. Namely, that I am much more likely to care about someone if the feeling is mutual. On a rational level, I can recognize that this or that person has had a bad time and deserve better, and I want to help them, but if they are hostile or indifferent to me, I kind of stop caring. And vice versa, if I feel that someone cares about me, I will care a lot about them. If this is the case for two people, it can quickly spiral either towards more mutual caring, or more mutual indifference.
Now here's the tricky part, how do we influence this trajectory? The only way I can think of is to care even if the other person isn't caring back. Polarizing language can feel good, to assert yourself when you feel hurt, but... is it helpful or detrimental for the bigger picture? It's so circular and self-reinforcing. So hard to escape.
I get the feeling that many people argue that "well, when they start treating me right, then I will start treating them right, but until then I don't care", and sure, I understand that feeling. But the feeling is probably mutual.Same sentiment here. I always try to care a bit more than the other person so that, assuming most people use proportional caring implicitly, the mutual care can increase steadily.
I often see an issue when trying to communicate your point here, (which I agree with and I also agree that that Patriarchy is a problem), there is no good way to name and call out those as you put it "radical anti-patriarchy combatants."
Very few are willing to name or talk about "the Matriarchy" or "toxic Femininity." So we either end up trying to use a long string of less impactful words, (like you did), or we just sweep those "radical anti-patriarchy combatants" under the too broad umbrella of Patriarchy and end up hidden from sight.
So the next time you need to call out one of those radical anti-patriarchy combatants, name them for what they are-- a toxic feminist and are adding to the problem of the Matriarchy. Just as you would call out any toxic male as being a problem part of the Patriarchy. Then sit back and watch them come unglued.
Because we desperately need equality for all and we need to support each other as best we can and when we can. To quote the famous Canadian philosopher, Red Green-- "Remember, we're all in this together."
Why are your feelings hurt because somebody was mean to the patriarchy? The patriarchy sucks. It doesn't deserve your sympathy.
Been dumped, more than twice, immediately after crying in front of a woman. Make of that what you will.
On a similar note, my ex-girlfriend of two years was ranting about how men do not go to therapy. Then I mentioned that I do go to therapy, and been going from even before we met... and I will never forget the look on her face, she immediately stopped me mid sentence and told me she didn't need to hear about it.
She broke up with me the next week and said something like she didn't want to be with someone that goes to therapy, but rather one that went.
I doubt that was it, but okay
Absolutely hilarious lack of self-awareness
That's fucked. If I was dating a guy and he cried in front of me it would make me happy to know that he feels safe being vulnerable around me. I would treasure him forever after that.
Not everyone is a good person.
This is absolutely the way to look at that level of intimacy IMO because that's how I view it.
The day my dad died, nearly 23 years ago now, was also the day that I knew I'd ask my wife to marry me.
It was a long illness and he was relatively young. We were living together and I had just sucked it up for 18 painful months. Never cried once.
Anyway the day came and I got home and just cracked when we went to bed. I just sobbed in the bed with her. Like a real, deep, deep sobbing.
She just held me and rubbed my hair and I will never, ever forget that.
Anyway about 8 months later I asked her to marry me and we're married over 20 years now and have a beautiful family together. I love her so much.
And my wife is exactly like you. But just sayin', in my experience, most women are not.
And I get it! No woman craves a weak man. No woman says to herself, "I wish my man was a sobbing pile of goo!"
Women want a strong man, a man that protects her from the slings and arrows of life. We can be those men and still cry. But it ain't easy.
Happened to me in high school once. Haven't really been able to cry openly ever since.
more than twice
So, three times?
At least
Or more. Didn't want to exaggerate, could only think of 3 lately. Been dumped a lot over 4 decades of dating.
But I've finally found the one! Took me that long to find a Filipino. (Guys, drop the American women, seriously, I'd never date one again.)
I lost my little brother last year and I would say I already wasn't a very "manly" man before that but that put things into a new perspective. It was a horrible time but also one that showed me that I chose my friends and family very wisely.
A bit related to this, so many times throughout my life when I've mentioned I'd like to be friends with, take up lost contact with or just mention a woman has a currently present woman reacted like "you know she has a boyfriend, right?", "I don't think you're her type" etc.
It makes sense that so many men have very few or no female friends, because they experience exactly that. It's like many women have decided that all men are incapable of being friendly with women without it being about sex or more than friends. We get scared of trying because it'll just be misinterpreted as wanting to fuck them.
I've always had a lot of friends who are women, but the ones who were in my "league" or higher almost all eventually asked why I never hit on them, or blatantly hit on me. It was a weird mix of them being upset I hadn't like it was a judgement on their attractiveness, and being frustrated because they thought it was an eventuality and were tired of waiting.
But, humans are pattern recognition machines, we don't even realize we're doing it most of the time.
Especially for a very attractive woman in her 20s, if a guy is interacting with her, it's likely because they want sex.
So you can't fault them for the assumption, but then when they run into a guy that legit is cool just being platonic friends, they tend to pursue a relationship because they see that as a desirable trait. Even just for a FWB thing, you've shown that you're "safe" and it can become a conquest thing as well because they're not used to the rejection of not being pursued and want the ego boost of changing your mind.
There's just an absolute shit ton going on, so it's hard to judge anyone because their life experiences are why they hold their current beliefs.
As a trans woman who came out the other side... well there's no modest way to put it- pretty damn attractive I'm told, I never understood why women just assume guys are hitting on them until I lived it.
I don't even do it on purpose. It's just that the vast, vast majority of the time, guys are trying to hit on me, and my brain has connected the "guy talking to me" neuron and the "guy hitting on me" neuron so tightly that it doesn't even occur to me that they might not be unless they prove it through extended interactions, usually over years, of never showing any interest.
And yeah, I've definitely fallen for people largely because they simply hadn't shown any signs of being into me. You're right that there is an immense sense of safety in knowing they've never tried to get in my pants. Unfortunately, that also means, 99% of the time, that they're gonna say no if I ask them out (I generally prefer to make the first move because it feels safer.)For the sake of example and because it's relevant to the thread, I asked a dude out who'd shown no interest, and it turned out he was actually attracted to me, but wasn't interested because he'd been heavily abused in a past relationship and he wasn't ever willing to give it another shot.
And on that subject, having life experience as both a man and a woman really does open your mind to how differently abuse is treated between men and women. I was heavily abused as a kid, both by men and women, and telling the story before I transitioned, people always desperately searched for a reason it was my fault (even though I was a kid at the time it happened) and when they couldn't find one, spouted lines like "at least you're stronger for it."
As a woman, people, not having knowledge that I wasn't always a woman, immediately recognize how horrible my abuse was, zero attempts to justify it, and hell, even direct me to support groups (albiet I've attended said groups before and they're fucking useless trauma feedback circles in my experience.)Well, that turned into a half irrelevant rant, but it's nice to have some of that off my chest.
Oh yeah, gender relations are a mess. The belief of not being able to be friends with genders you’re attracted to is bullshit, and I’m really tired of it. It’s cost me some relationships to the point where I had to make that a rule.
I’m not attracted to everyone, and beyond that, I have a healthy respect for boundaries. Their boundaries and my boundaries.
One note, maybe quit mentioning you’d like to be friends with them and just be friends with them? Mentioning “I’d like to be friends with…” to other people is coded as “Hook me up with...”.
Always remember that the patriarchy harms everyone
An asshole is an asshole is an asshole, don't you dare act like it's not these women's fault if they have no compassion.
Yes. It is their fault that they're supporting the patriarchy.
Stop deflecting blame from shitty women. There are shitty women who do shitty things and "the patriarchy" does not excuse their behavior.
Stop worshiping the patriarchy. The patriarchy is not God. The patriarchy is not to blame for every shitty thing a shitty woman does.
Sometimes women are shitty and you make the problem worse by telling everyone it's not their fault because the patriarchy is God in your idiot doctrine.
Edit: I'm not saying the patriarchy isn't real, it definitely is and should be dismantled. But you need to interrogate your own righteousness or you're just spreading neoliberal schlock to make yourself feel better about how women can be shitty to men.
Women thinking men are icky when they express emotions is because they're taught from a very young age that expressing emotions is feminine and feminine, especially feminine men, is bad. This wasn't a reach to blame on the patriarchy at all.
The patriarchy isn't "men are harming people all by themselves." It's the gender roles and gender hierarchy that both men and women perpetuate.
Edit: I'm not saying the patriarchy isn't real, it definitely is and should be dismantled. But you need to interrogate your own righteousness or you're just spreading neoliberal schlock to make yourself feel better about how women can be shitty to men.
"neoliberalism is when you want to dismantle patriarchy"
Sure, shift blame away and never help feminism 101 when it comes to men
Please read the rest of my comments
I am a man, I have been hurt by women who would not have done so if the society in which they live did not deem it normal and ok. While these women are responsible for their actions and should do better, they would not have acted this way if patriarchal society didn't deem men to be lacking in emotion or "emotionally strong".
Things everyone must learn themselves because patriarchy instills in them the opposite:
- Women are people
- Men are human
Pretty sad comment section, hope y'all get through it.
Cried over my dog dying at school once. Made me a target for physical violence for about 6 months after that. Vulnerability is for people you trust.
Vulnerability is for people you trust.
And this is what needs to change. In order to trust someone, a level of vulnerability is required. We must demand that expression of emotion is not seen as vulnerability, but as a human need.
Wore nail polish at work this week, because I’m a bloke in his 40s who works in an office so fuck it, why not.
Our HR manager - a man in his 50s who fairly recently sent out an email reminding us to talk about our feelings to help our mental health - asked me (half jokingly) if I was “going through some life changes”
I will be when I find a better company to work for.
To be fair, that could have been a genuine attempt to reach out to you. Coming in with painted nails when they've never seen you present yourself that way could be interpreted as you going through some life changes, and maybe you want to talk about them given an opportunity?
Nah, he knows me well enough to know what I’m about. And ultimately he doesn’t really care whether I do it or not, but he’s an ex-army man of a certain age, and me wearing nail polish doesn’t jive with his view of what’s ’normal’.
I'm still really broken about the miscarriage a few years back and most of the response I've gotten from others has been in the form of violence.
Yeah, it's hard. We had a miscarriage a few years before our kid, and nobody really gave a shit about the effect it had. Hell, my fuckstick boss made me take (bullshit noise) after hours alerts from the fucking hospital room.
One of the many times I've used malicious compliance to change policies.
I don’t have any tattoos, but if I ever got one it would be 4 small circles. Three would be filled in and one would be just an outline. It’s not much, but as a father of four pregnancies but three kids it would be a small little reminder just for me. My logic has always been if I’m going to be marked on the outside, it should reflect how I’m marked on the inside.
Four years later it still stings. I wish you peace; I wish I could say talking about it with other people has helped, but I can’t.
I'm so sorry. My wife and I are trying to conceive and after two years of trying we got a positive. Then another a few days later. We were aware that we shouldn't get our hopes up, but despite that how can you not? We were so excited.
Then the spotting started. Then another test still showed positive but it was so faint. It turned into desperately trying to bargain with the universe and convince ourselves that these signs didn't point to the obvious. But the obgyn confirmed it a few days later.
For us it was only ~2 weeks after the first positive, and I can't even imagine how hard it must be to lose it later on. I'm still devastated. We're still trying, but I'm not sure how much fear is going to be mixed in if we manage to get another positive.
That's a rough place. You don't want to bring it up to often, nor allow any situation make them feel as if your sadness or grieving is due to them at all. Been through a situation like that, not fun. You want to be a rock, but also human, while not allowing that humanity.. which is part of the problem.
That sucks. A miscarriage is basically losing a baby, if you've been thinking about it like one. I still think about life with the son that my wife and I lost in a miscarriage.
I guess I’ll share too.
Although I don’t actually cry that often, and will still tend to shut my self off and wallow when I start to feel down; which is something that happens intermittently several times a year where I just feel hopeless, unhappy, lacking purpose, and not really wanting to do life.
So when I’m in these moods my friends have realised the signs, mainly me being hard to reach and absent from gatherings etc. they will all reach out and make me leave the house and have a talk about how I’m feeling, have some hugs, and then just go to roasting each other. This helps massively as isolating makes me worse so being around friends and just being in the moment is a really good antidote for me.
I guess my point is that the men around me are a bit more accepting of mental health issues. It’s not like they’re all hipster kind of mates. I am unusual in that I’m a nerdy software developer that is also very street wise and has mates that are completely the opposite. Most are trades people, a few sell drugs, are handy with their hands etc. basically my friends are chavs, but they’re accepting and not what you would think.
Edit: I should add that we all range from 30-40 years old.
I have been dumped for not expressing emotion, and crying, due to tragic things happening.
When they ask about express more emotions they mean positive emotions about them. So don't be bother by it. If you express the "wrong" emotions you will be dumped too.
No, they were put off because I didn't cry over the situation, or really demonstration and strong signs of despair.
Fuck, i can't even cry when I need to.
Then it will come at the worst possible time.
I was watching Arcane on Netflix with wife and her family a couple nights ago. The very beginning, where it deals with loss of family, I just immediately lost it, like I had been shot. I don't even remember what the show was like, I just cried with my face buried in my hands the whole episode. Totally came out of nowhere, I was fine a moment before.
The room was dark, so nobody saw but my chest was heaving and I couldn't even try to move to excuse myself because I knew I was about to let out a loud screaming sob. I sat there for a full hour hyperventilating, worried someone was going to turn on a light or hear my breathing.
I have spent a lifetime being "the guy who takes care of everything" and the stoic fighter, always the one encouraging others. I couldn't deal with the fallout of freaking out everyone, they already know I have anxiety disorder and really, really don't understand mental health, so if I started acting erratic everyone in the family will start walking on eggshells around me.
So to those browsing down here: "Why do men keep everything inside?"
Because of how you react when we don't. Your ideas of what it looks like to express emotion as a male is not connected to reality.
I wish I could give you a hug. My husband is similar, he struggles with emotions and has always been "the calm rock." Everyone compliments him on his patience and temper, he is an extremely chill person to be around. Because of this, he struggles heavily with any time he does not fulfill that role. His self worth is tied to how much he can fix or do for others and in a non-bothersome way. We've been together for about 10 years and he's gotten more comfortable expressing his emotions but still feels immense shame when he cries or breaks down. Your last sentence is such a good point I've never really thought about. I should start paying more attention to how he needs and wants to express those emotions earlier. He's bottled and masked for so long I don't think he's ever been able to give different forms of expression a chance.
I'm sorry the people closest to you struggle to give you the space you need when things get overwhelming. Life isn't made to be easy, and you've worked hard for a long time. I hope you get some time for whatever you feel like now that the holidays are over.
I know how that feels, and I know a few more people of any gender who have been made that way.
I eventually gained it back, but it sometimes I still feel like I'm close to tears yet can't go there. Feels like a sneeze that doesn't come except more emotional.
That's one of the reasons why I love stories that make me cry. It's literally the only place where I'm able to do it and allows me to release some of the stress that way.
Yupp, have the same general problem. Although maybe not fitting to the stereotype of men and masculinity, I am also basically incapable of getting angry. The only responses I have to stress are shutdown and fawning, I think it (partially) stems from a combination of mostly absent father and an overwhelmed mother with a lot of unresolved mental health issues, that sadly wasn't able to properly handle children being normal children, lots of essentialist sentences about me being horrible still floating in my head from that childhood.
What helps me with anger is aggressive-depressive music. While that channels it just as a primal feeling, it's also a good stimming time. Crying is harder, though, although I had moments - some years back I was able to cry for over an hour while with my best friend, that really was a watershed moment in my life, but it unfortunately did not just make the underlying problems and blockade go away.
Other things that sometimes manage to tease anger and tears out of me is watching some true crime shit, or stuff like holocaust documentaries. Getting angry and disturbed for someone else comes a lot easier for me, but even there, the wall is high to climb.
Have you tried old school country music?
Some of the modern stuff, but mostly stuff from 20-30 years ago that's just sad as fuck.
Just get in your own head and start thinking of past regrets and people who are gone.
Like, "having a good cry" honestly helps, so it's worth putting the work in to "learn" to cry. It's flushing out hormones and neurotransmitters, and can lower cortisol which has a whole bunch of benefits.
So maybe not country, but find some music that makes you emotional and start a straight up "crying playlist" to get you in that headspace. It'll get easier overtime
For every 50 sensitive men out there, there's a sociopath using a sensitive man persona to try to gain an advantage with women. Believe that men are sensitive, but verify, look for red flags.
What does this have to do with the thread? It sounds like you're putting up a "cares about women's safety" persona in order to gain an advantage with them, probably to murder them and wear their well-moisturized skin as a suit.
I like to have a cry every so often, like if I'm starting to feel overwhelmed easy and constantly, I'll go watch one my insta cry shows or movies.
One that works really well and lets me cry but over a more uplifting way mostly, is Ricky Gervais show Derek, I ugly cry so damn much in that show and afterwards I come out feeling great.
I used to hide it, but now I'll tell anyone, I don't care anymore, I'm nice, I'm caring and helpful, I'm a good person who uses crying as a form of self therapy, you're the negative one belittling me over a childish viewpoint that makes you feel uneasy because you lack the ability to actually express your emotions, so others shouldn't either.
Some people say that real men don't have feelings
We have feelings (we have feelings)
Some people say that we are not real men
(We're real men)
That hurts our feelings
(Hurts our feelings when you say we're not real men)
Some people say that real men are invincible
(We're vincible) we're vincible
They forgot about me...
My belief is that most women belive they want a sensitive man (after all, that's the cultural norm), until they actually get one. It's not super cool IRL unfortunately. Though it's very rare that women admits this to themselves or others. Usually you can find another believable excuse, that fits with the norm. Abnormal sensitivity often comes with extra baggage.
But there are of course exceptions, and that's what you should look for if you're a guy and know you're on the more sensitive side of the spectrum.
Also don't fall for any of that "patriarchy" crap that is being spammed here. It's just a useless concept (or religion). Usually advocated by people with close to zero life experience and a taste for conspiracy theories. And in this context its almost dangerous, because even if it was true, advocates draw the wrong conclusions (like that a less patriarchal society would appreciate sensitive men more). If you want to understand why the world feels injust or that you've been fooled, I would start with reading about evolutionary game theory and maybe look at Robert Sapolskys video lectures on human behavior biology on YouTube. Then do some reading on moral realism (and why it's stupid). If you're American (sorry) its probably more likely that you are a firm believer in moral realism and that you don't know much about evolution and biology. Don't go for Jordan Peterson because he's just a completely incoherent thinker (or simply put, a quite stupid guy), who's also into mysticism. Or maybe just read some Peterson and you will hopefully understand. He's very average, but had good timing I guess.
You know how sometimes people accuse men of unwarranted overconfidence?
Don't worry they're definitely not talking about you, bud, keep being you.
Plenty of examples out there, also see the "woman vs tree" simile.
It's ok to cry about sad life experiences... But not about xitter.
the comments aren’t making it to my instance but i peeked over to how they look on slrpnk and just want to say good job all for approaching this with so much respect and decency
certain communities over on .world could never 😜
This whole thread needs to listen to Samaritans by Idles.
This whole comment needs to explain why if you expect a real response other than downvotes.
I feel like another level of lack of self awareness is going into the comments and finding that actually it's the patriarchies fault.
Like wow thanks its so helpful to know that this isn't my fault "a man" it's men's fault (you being a man remember).
Patriarchy isn't "men bad", it's a social system that places men and women into predetermined, rigid boxes. This harms both men and women, since none of us are as rigid as the system demands us to be.
"Boys don't wear pink"
"Girls play with dolls"
"Men don't cry"
"Women who dress 'that way' deserve it"
All of those are patriarchy reinforcing statements. Again, this harmful belief that "men shouldn't have feelings" and them then bring rejected by women due to opening up is, on a macro level, due to the patriarchy. On an individual level, they're just people being assholes to their loved ones.
I honestly wish that a better word had been chosen than "patriarchy". Because at first blush it does look like "men bad" in an environment in which there are people who are predisposed to dismiss it as such.
Particularly since the patriarchy harms everyone. It can smack of "you're the enemy and it's your fault you're suffering" to the uninitiated. And bad faith actors are using that to misrepresent feminism and perpetuate the patriarchy.
Yes ultimately it comes down to toxic gender roles but I think calling those roles patriarchy is unfair and inherently ties blame to men. Doing so in a context where a man is clearly the victim is belittling and I would argue adding to the idea that men need to shoulder the burden of a sexist society.
So many people blaming "the patriarchy" for the terrible behaviour of women.
No, that doesn't justify treating the men in your life as soulless servants.
Yeah you won't convince anyone to change by insisting that they aren't being toxic and that they're actually victims of society lmao
That's not what that word means. “patriarchs” aren't men in general, that's why it's possible (and in fast true) that the patriarchy harms people of all genders.
As this post demonstrate, men don't benefit from it, e.g. it makes us live shorter, it encourages suppressing our emotion, it encourages our aggression. Because some (mostly) men in power benefit if we don't unionize, let ourselves be pressed into shit jobs or the military, and so on.
Read the other messages here and you might understand.
