A TikTok alternative called Loops is coming for the fediverse | Users own their content, and Loops doesn’t sell or provide videos to third-party advertisers or train AI on them. It will be open source
A TikTok alternative called Loops is coming for the fediverse | Users own their content, and Loops doesn’t sell or provide videos to third-party advertisers or train AI on them. It will be open source
Loops promises to bring the TikTok experience to the fediverse.
Signups opened this week for Loops, a short-form looping video app from the creator of Instagram alternative Pixelfed, reports TechCrunch.
The first round of applications are for ios only, android has to wait, would have liked to have known that information before I spent the last week waiting.
Hmmm…
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Surprised they're not asking for peoples' firstborns.
Welp thars a hard no.
At this point, it's sounding more and more like a social experiment.
What a great way to build trust in a newly born platform! And how respecting to the people that are using the platform! Way to go!
sounds like Facebook
TikTok gathering data and selling it to whoever is a problem but it's not the problem.
The problem of TikTok and many other social media is that it drains our energy and motivation. It's like digital weed, creates the feeling that there's no reason to change things. We can just consume things.
Barkbarkbark
TikTok is designed to make you consume and not meaningfully engage. As complex as the algorithm is, users' ability to participate in discussions is severely limited.
ByteDance is capable of writing software that predicts what you want to see next, but it can't write comment sorting, or basic threading like Reddit?
The severe limitations in communication are deliberate. You're not supposed to engage meaningfully, you're supposed to look at it, feel something, and then scroll.
One of the reasons I like seeing new social media startups (like Lemmy) is that the current offerings are harmful to us, and any challenge to them as the potential to make positive change.
Bark
That's a problem. Absolutely. It's not the problem though. I'm not sure the problem can be summarized so succinctly. This is the way I've been putting it:
These are the top reasons humanity needs successful, decentralized, open social media platforms:
- Collecting and selling user's private data is dangerous and unethical.
- Using that data to intentionally and directly manipulate user's thinking is even worse.
- All of the major centralized social media companies have been proven to either allow these illicit information campaigns or coordinate them directly. TikTok is the focus right now but Sophie Zhang exposed Facebook for doing exactly what TikTok has been exposed for recently. Can you recall any meaningful consequences for Facebook? Do you think Facebook is now safe to use?
- It's clear that most political leaders are either too ignorant, too corrupt, or too inept to meaningfully legislate against these problems.
- The concerned public can't shut Pandora's box. No one is coming to save us from big tech or the monied interests and nation-states that wield it.
- The concerned public can't easily and legally audit the platforms big tech builds because they are closed and proprietary.
- Personal choice is not enough. Not using centralized social media increases personal safety but does little to curb its influence otherwise.
These are listed by order of intuitive acceptance rather than importance. I find it aids the conversation.
The best reasonable answer to these problems I've seen proposed is for the public to create an open and decentralized alternative that's easier to use and provides a better user experience.
Will that kind of alternative be a force for pure good? I'm not sure. To your point: I'm not convinced social media of any kind can be more than self-medication to cope with modernity. Then again I've had incredible and meaningful conversations with close friends after passing the bong around and spent time on Facebook/Reddit, and now Mastodon/Lemmy/etc, doing the same. Those interactions were uplifting and humanizing in ways that unified and encouraged all involved.
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. We need to take care of each other, refuse pure hedonism, and protect the vulnerable (and we're all varying degrees of vulnerable). At the same time: humans aren't happy in sterile viceless productivity prisons. Creating spaces for leisure which do no harm in the course of their use isn't just a nice idea... It's necessary for a functional and happy society.
it drains our energy and motivation
All this time, I thought the daily grind of employment - consuming 8-12 hours of my day for someone else's profit - was what exhausted my free time, limited my opportunities for socializing, and drained my enthusiasm for local organizing. Turns out it was the fifteen minutes of free time between meetings checking current events that was to blame.
It’s like digital weed
So its palliative care for our lack of comprehensive healthcare, but even less effective at the job?
Nah man, Social Media Companies are at an evil genius level of greed. They are the ones creating the feeling of consuming a "digital weed," as you call it. Blaming the users is tantamount to saying the world is polluted because people love cars, as if the oil and gas lobby isn't cultivating that and profiting massively off of it.
TikTok is popular because it's addicting, not because it's useful, so I don't understand why anyone would use this.
TikTok is popular because it’s addicting, not because it’s useful
TikTok is profitable because it is addictive. But the idea that short-form video is less useful than print or radio is flawed.
I don’t understand why anyone would use this.
For the same reason someone would turn on the TV, download a podcast, or pick up a magazine.
If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. It seems like an idea worth trying. What is there to lose?
Maybe I'm just old, but I traveled by plane recently (I don't fly very often) and seeing everyone around me mindlessly scrolling short-form video content was shocking. Looked identical to the people in the space ship in WALL-E.
Dude, it's the airport. It's boring as fuck.
What tf you want them to do?
I don't see how reading magazines, what people used to do, is any better.
I’m not an expert, so take this as far as you’d like — reading has real benefits to our brains such as improving vocabulary, improving critical thinking skills, and improving focus. I don’t think short form videos give us the same brain benefits.
Here’s an article from Piedmont health on the benefits of reading. I haven’t seen such an article for short form videos, but am open to it if there is one.
https://www.piedmont.org/living-real-change/health-benefits-of-reading
WALL-E was depressingly prescient.
Instagram has been getting me with this. I like to post sometimes, but my friends and I recently compared our screen time stats and I couldn’t believe I was regularly wasting hours a day mindlessly scrolling IG. I uninstalled the app and will just occasionally post from my computer.
I took it off my home screen and started using one of those screen time apps. I check it two or three times a day now, instead of however many it was before.
As opposed to doing what exactly?
If you are upset by the video length I can provide you plenty of videos of absolute tosh that are over 18 minutes long.
Reading, maybe. People don't read actual literature as much as they used to.
A long video would also be better for you, yes, instead of being designed to catch your attention and keep giving you dopamine hits.
I'm glad there's still a place left for us old curmudgeons that isn't overrun by normies yet. i saw somebody suggest hosting things on tor, just for the purpose of keeping normies away from it. hilarious but probably would work great!
TikTok has 2 versions:
One is what we use. People mindlessly scroll brainrot contents with algorithm desinged to as addictive as possible.
Another one is chinese version. It has actualy useful and educative content, but its China only.
As a Chinese person, no. Chinese version is just censored more. Both are good as far as format goes.
I'm not in china and I get chess, math and physics videos.
Regardless of whether the content is "useful and educative" or "brainrot", I just don't seem how you can comprehend rapidly-changing and very short content at all, this just seems unnatural. Is that how ADHD feels like? And not like you can get comprehensive knowledge from such bite-sized videos anyway, maximum disjointed factoids.
Yeah, fucking sheep!
I also thought about those scenes in Wally when I was walking the dog the other day.
Soon all of us will float around in armchairs and never step outside.
Welcome to the new world.
PS: I am old too.
I don't think TikTok community is compatible with the idea of fediverse
TikTok exists to give you large floods of endorphins via either an algorithm trained to your interests or by giving you big numbers. And this is not exclusive to TikTok, this is just how modern "social" media works, it's the sole reason why bluesky succeeded more than mastodon
Modern social media is mostly a hive mind of people affirming each other driven by algorithms. Fediverse on the other hand, always boils down to a old fashioned usenet style network made just so people can talk with each other. You can't really get addicted to fedi
I wasn't really alive during the wild west internet (im 19). I got into the net during the transition from forums to modern social media and reddit was my first social. I tried getting into facebook and instagram because everyone else was there but I just didn't like it much.
I don't know why but "the algorithm" is really boring for me. I only tried algorithm driven feeds on reddit (after u/spez) and on tumblr but the recommendations were always extremely "fake". Other sorting methods like "new" or "by most active" just feel more like as if there was someone on the other side of the keyboard
You can’t really get addicted to fedi
Hmm... anxiously eyeing my Lemmy post history...
You can’t really get addicted to fedi
Phew, I was getting a bit worried.
Could be worse. Could be flying squid.
Partly why I use Voyager with page numbers. Gives you a clear stop point.
I had some days that I spent hours debating with people, other days I just chill and chat with people, particularly on Mastodon.
and then theres.. Lemmy, I was probably addicted to the hardest. The score system would keep me checking it and i'd be interested in keeping my score up high. I'd even argue that it made me a better human being.
Me too😂
An interesting point, that a lot of younger people might not know: social media wasn’t always like this.
When I joined facebook around 2008-09, it wasn’t algorithm driven, there weren’t even ads. You had a chronological feed of your friends’ interactions, so you could see if someone posts a photo, comments something, or shares a stupid quiz. It was a very-very different feeling compared to what we have now. It was useful and practical, but the enshittification killed it.
I would never sign up for something like this today, absolutely useless - only reason I’m still there is the messaging app, which I use daily with most of my friends/family.
It's weird seeing how "the algorithm" has genuinely only made things worse. Falling into the YouTube rabbit hole was a thing, and it was entirely organic. From the loose connections of topics, you could start from any feel good funny video, and end in detailed documentary about MK Ultra.
The best algorithm was no algorithm and there's no way of ever going back to that. I feel pretty lucky to have experienced the internet before it became everything.
I don't think algorithms themselves are to blame but what they are tuned for. While engagement/eyeball hours for the adserver is the prime metric the quality of experience will be subservient to it. If the algorithms could better measure your mood and stimulation levels and maximise for that the effect would be less toxic. Ideally if it realised you were just mindlessly consuming it could suggest maybe you've done enough today and to try something else. But that I fear that is not something the owners of the various ecosystems want.
my favorite feel good funny videos are about Mk Ultra and the three letter agencies (IRS FDA MSG)
I have been so happy since I've adopted the "intentional browsing" concept. It means I am the only one choosing what I want to see so I use NewPipe instead of YouTube, Mastodon instead of Twitter, Lemmy and a RSS reader instead of Reddit. My life has improved so much I am not even kidding. I feel 'clean'
I don't think anything is un-addictable (making up words here). I do agree that the social media mindset and fedi are not compatible though, basically because of the algorithm concept.
At the end of the day I hate all social media because they feed me what they think I want to eat. Regardless of how well they do that I hate the concept because I want to decide for myself what I want to partake in. Fedi allows that without getting in my way.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't a bit more subtle than that. While the medium really facilitate the behavior that you describe, I'm pretty sure that it also hosts sane usages, creative content and positive communities.
ITT: People in their mid-twenties or later, who feel superior to those that like one form of media over their preferred media.
Elitism aside, I don't really see what federation solves here. What benefits does federation offer the user? How does the recommendation algorithm give users what they want? How will a decentralised platform perform the kind of centralised events a platform like TikTok is known for?
A distributed service is much less vulnerable to being bought up by a single narcissistic billionaire who can ruin the online experience of millions of people at once.
A distributed service like Lemmy is spread out over 600 Instances in countries all over the world. If someone buys the most popular Lemmy Instance and wrecks it, those users can simply move to the same communities on the second or third or fourth most popular Instance and the original Instance will wither and die. This also works for communities with power tripping moderators. You can quickly find out through a search which community is the "real" one by the number of subscribers it has.
ITT: People in their mid-twenties or later, who feel superior to those that like one form of media over their preferred media.
You're just waving away an important fact, which is that shorts and their equivalents are notoriously known for killing attention spans and disrupting the management of dopamine in the brain, causing depression in particular.
We are no longer simply in the traditional custom of the elderly who despise the activities of the younger generations, we are talking about health.
While true, how is that any different to the arguments that were used for TV? Additionally, Lemmy is a social network in the same way that Reddit is. Is this not also dangerous?
As has been the recommendation for practically everything for the four decades I've been on this earth, moderation is key. Instead of hating new media, either regulate it (if the evidence is truly that great) or treat it with healthy moderation.
Let's be blunt here. Most of the people in this thread aren't worried about health. They don't like short-form video/foreign-owned companies/things they didn't grow up with, and their elitism is getting the better of them instead of them letting people like what they want to like.
Federation can solve the danger zone content for you, how about a federation network with just kids content, other with more adult ones, etc to the just nsfw isolated from each others?
That's...actually a really good use case for something like this. I'd argue that a recommendation algorithm that tailors to the best content a given federated service can provide for their use-case is probably a better source than what you'd get from a single source of truth that could give you everything and nothing.
Moderation
You may see shorts in lemmy in the near future because of that.
I don't think they'll be able to do any type of direct competition for TikTok with a lack of advertising and payments You're not going to draw quality creators. Decentralized algorithm sounds like a nightmare to manage.
However one place they will have some advantage is censorship. Anything that's not explicitly illegal Will be a hell of a lot harder to stamp out. Moderation will probably be very light.
who feel superior to those that like one form of media over their preferred media
I don't watch the TikToks. I get my information from a source I know I can trust.
What benefits does federation offer the user? How does the recommendation algorithm give users what they want? How will a decentralised platform perform the kind of centralised events a platform like TikTok is known for?
I might argue that the ability to curate your own content, rather than being plugged into the Main Feed that just front-loads whatever the highest bidder wants shoved into your eyeballs, is a relative improvement to the current Facebook/Google ad-supported algorithm model.
But in the end, it just gives more weight to advertisers and influencers. You have to lure people into subscribing (like old school newspapers/radio/TV had to do) rather than buying visual real estate directly in their eye-line. You're still going to have InfoWars and Drudge Report and Joe Rogan tier content. Its just something you're going to be baited into opting into rather than struggling to opt out of.
But it will keep you using the Fediverse as a model longer, because you feel like you've got a degree of control (I don't have to listen to Rogan if I don't want to). Whereas services like YouTube and Facebook are forcing their users to choose between getting injected with the cheapest, hackeyest swill or to switching providers.
the benefit i can see is that instead of having to share out to other social media, you can just see it in any fediverse account you have thanks to activity pub which eliminates one of the barriers to being viral.
that said i don't think it will get mainstream appeal.
Ignoring the myriad of other issues listed in this thread, the bit about training AI is pretty misleading. It's not hard to scrape webpages for whatever kind of data you like, even if loops doesn't outright hand things over for third parties for that purpose.
And the kind of people who are downloading the entire internet to train AIs are the type to be willing to just scrape without permission.
They are claiming not to train AI using your videos/info theirselves. I don't think it's misleading just because other people can scrape that info.
And while they claim in their FAQ to not sell your content and/or use it or provide it to others as GenAI training data, according to the Terms&Services you have to grant them the right to do pretty much exactly that (and everything else): https://loops.video/legal/terms-of-service#7
Not that that has anything to do with them of course.
loops doesn't outright hand things over for third parties for that purpose.
Hey, check it out; it's the thing loops said buried in the middle of your paragraph highlighting what other parties can or will do.
Yes, and it will still be brainrot.
My attention span is just fine. I don't need to see it ruined by short format nonsense with about as much intellectual value as the nutritional value of a McDonald's cheeseburger.
I never installed TikTok or Snapchat on my phone, not because I had privacy concerns, but because I hate everything about the format.
The problem with tiktok is not close-source and being centralised. It is being tiktok
I've been avoiding it for years and finally gave in in the moment of weakness. I uninstalled it very soon after because I hated the experience so much and never gave it another thought nor chance. xd
Omg😱. Round of applause for Mr. Superior here!!!
I'll take it. Thank you.
I was there 3000 years ago when snapchat was brand new... those were some good times. Sending snaps to all your friends and staying in touch etc, before all the filters and stories and news etc it was great
Vine was before Snapchat
It's not the format that is the problem. It's that old rich people from the broadcast industry decided that since they couldn't compete with the communications and community industry they'd instead turn the communications platforms into broadcast platforms and tear down all of the community aspects. It happened to all of social media including more long form media as well. So if this project can avoid selling out or being manipulated by spammers into becoming yet another broadcast platform, it might have a shot.
It's absolutely the format. The old rich people just have the incentive to drag everyone into it, to make it something to get "hooked" on. But the format itself is already cancerous.
How can you hate something that you've never tried?
for example by being aware that the format is harmful to psychological health
Pretty easily: that’s the whole point of the concept of “reputation”
Not interested in the short-video concept. But I like the name, though. Short, sweet, doesn't sound too "techy", not too complicated to pronounce or spell.
My problem with tiktok/reels/shorts is not that they aren't federated. It's the entire format/concept I hate.
I think I might like them better if they didn't auto-play. I hate anything that auto-plays.
Let's take it a step further, a tile based feed where you can pick yourself what would you like to watch, wait...
Don't all modern browsers allow you to disable auto-playing of video, even per-site if desired?
I think if you're just looking for quick news breaks then it can be useful but if you're looking for detailed content or lengthy movies, or skits. Something like Youtube would be more preferred. I think for me it depends on the content.
I watch a ton of YouTube. I love it for entertainment and some news. I absolutely hate YouTube for tutorials or guides though. If I'm trying to figure out how to fix a computer issue, I just want to read about it and have screenshots I can look at. I don't want to have to constantly pause a damn video or scroll back and forth to find info.
As far as tiktok style videos go I just hate everything about them. I hate the auto play, I hate the vertical aspect ratio, I hate the stupid auto voiceovers, I hate the dumb floating captions and comments overlay, I hate the lack of volume adjustment or the ability to pause and rewind or seek. I hate the types of brainrot content that people make to work the algorithm. I hate that the format has infested YouTube and IG with no real way to be rid of it.
I think if you're just looking for quick news breaks then it can be useful...
No, even then, that format is even worse. Good journalism often has a nuance and detail to it. The short-format video nonsense barely has enough time to get through a headline and a broad summary.
The 24h news cycle is bad enough without trying to shorten it further to 90sec ragebait clips.
They don't have to sell or provide videos to third parties, because they can just do it themselves.
That's the nature of actual federation. It's not private.
Very cool that its federated but to be honest i just dont like this kind of short form content. I ratherd watch a youtube video.
My biggest problem with short form content is I want to pick what I'll watch based on the uploader, title and thumbnail, not be algorithmically fed videos I may or may not be interested in. All of the video providers are going straight for the algorithm so I have zero interest.
The algorithm won't know what kind of content I'm in the mood for so I want to be in control to choose. The algorithm also likes to try to feed me content by some creators who aren't worth my time and I don't want to watch one second of their videos
Short form content ruins people’s attention span. I’ll pass.
Same
Im guessing it's going to be missing all the features that make tiktok popular like duets and pedophilia.
Thanks for the uncomfortable chuckle.
I'm not convinced the Fediverse is devoid of pedophilia, I think we all need to be wary of it and report it whenever we see it.
I think you just perfectly described Roblox
I think it's scary how many of the mainstream platforms this joke could apply to.
What does duets mean in this context?
It's a feature of TikTok where you can put your video side-by-side with some else's video. This seems like a decent explanation.
Awesome! This sounds like a much better way for me to share the occasional video of either or both of my dogs being super cute on c/dogs (and on other non-Lemmy forums) than relying on an anonymous YouTube account.
(I may have partially used this post as an excuse to share a video of one of my dogs being super cute.)
Bröthër, whërë ärë my lööps?
big Pete why are you so BIG
I'm still waiting for the further instructions they promised to send by mail lol
Anyone actually got an email? I have signed up and haven’t gotten one all week :(
Not yet... Just waiting
I got an email that said to keep an eye out for another email lol. Glad I'm one step ahead of everyone else
I got this email 5 days ago and nothing since
Hi @Fitik, We're thrilled to welcome you to Loops.video! We're in the process of onboarding all our new users, and we can't wait for you to experience the magic of short looping video. Keep an eye out for another email from us later tonight or tomorrow (depending on when you signed up). It will have all the details you need to get started, including how to create your first Loop. Welcome to the Loops community! Regards, The Loops Team
Thought I put in the wrong email or something and was super confused for a while myself 😁
Haven't gotten mine, either. Email said I'd get an invite like that night, but one never came.
Who is going to pay to host all this content?
Also wish it were 5 or 10 minute limit rather than 60 seconds.
I have the same question, because many mastodon instances are barely keeping up with the costs of hosting pictures + text.
Yeah, was my first thought as well. As far as I can see it’s the same problem PeerTube is having and last I checked, were still trying to solve. (For context: https://github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube/issues/5783 )
My thought was that the video loading probably isn't going to be nearly as fast as TikTok because of the money behind their servers and optimization.
the idea is that you just watch them when you have a tiny gap to kill (and thus you become addicted)
I think you misunderstand how money is made off of these kind of things. Companies like TikTok, and YouTube make money by showing you ads and collecting data on you to sell.
A federated app, like this one we are talking about, is ad free, open source, and does not collect data on it's users for resale. Video hosting costs a lot of money, so unless users are willing to donate to keep it up and running, it will quickly run out of server space to host videos.
Headline should say coming TO the Fediverse.
"It's coming for you!" has a more aggressive meaning.
It's comin' right for us!
(insert here the "The TikTok at home" meme format) So actually I did my own with PeerTube (self hosted server side) and Latrix (mobile client to live stream) and you can see the result at https://video.benetou.fr/w/p/hfPcHz1kCgnM6zKhfPrS4b (playlist of 6 short videos with progress over time).
I'd argue it... works. Is it necessary or useful? Well I didn't keep up with the format but it potentially can be. My point being... we already have quite a few tools in place.
Granted, TicTok is worse than cancer so technically speaking this is of course a "good" step. But I have such a distaste (or rather hatred) for this type of content (same with Shorts), that I still cannot feel good about it.
I wanted an account, verification email is not arrived.
The waiting list is still very long at this point. Probably don't expect to get in for like 2 weeks...
😐
Go fediverse 😍
This is pretty cool. I'll check it out.
Nice profile picture!
But will it have porn?
Yes. It comes preloaded with porn. But it will be short porn, not the kind our wives like where the characters have to meet each other at the gym or the pool and then have a drink and yada yada yada.... Nah, this will be jump a little, pants fall off. Jump again, it's over and the hair is all messy and glued together for some reason. Porn.
OnlyFeds
Sounds like a place to find NSFW content from FBI agents.
That's lemmynsfw.com
I hope it has its own instance for it, just like lemmynsfw.
I signed up for Loops the first day. I didn't get an email confirmation until two days after, and I still haven't been given a way to sign in.
I don't really need any form of TikTok im afraid
will it be fruity ?
Lemmy’s final boss..
Then again, Lemmy and ActivityPub are (by design) wide open to anyone, including TenCent
anyone actually get an account? i signed up as soon as it was announced a year or so ago and haven't heard a peep.
Cool
Headline should say coming TO the Fediverse.
"I'm coming for you!" has a very different meaning
Oh no, please no, hell no, fuck no
Yep. The world just needs more stupid videos from stupid people. Just federated.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, though. You can assume them stupid, but nobody would use these forms of media if they viewed them the same. It’s just world moving on and leaving us greybeards behind, muttering about how stupid the new things are. Like the generation of our parents did for our interests, and theirs before them, and theirs before them, and so on.