Company creates "solution" to address school "vaping incidents".
Company creates "solution" to address school "vaping incidents".
Some of the LinkedIn Responses are direct and on-point, and also hilariously/depressingly based depending on how you look at it:
EDIT: In hindsight, I think I should've looked into posting this in a different community.. It's closer to a silly "innovation".. soo.. is this considered FUD? I also don't support smoking or vaping, especially among kids. Original title had "privacy-violating" before the "solution".
A school district spends $180,000 (hyperbole, I don’t know actual numbers) of taxpayer money deploying this system between the actual hardware costs, maintenance costs to install the hardware, it costs to implement it into their network, and probably an ongoing contact with this dummy’s company. Maybe only for support but with the way things are now I’m sure they built this app to phone home to their servers (introducing a huge potential security risk over simply running it locally on the schools existing network infrastructure in a docker or something), calling it “cloud based”, and charging the district 1k/month to run the devices the district now owns and should be able to operate without the company. The company then talks about how they’ll back up records and safeguard data so you don’t have to worry about that (that it dept you pay is pointless!)
Three months after deployment it turns out the sensors can be tripped by many things not related to vaping, maybe increases in heat, mouthwash breath, etc. the false positives are due to a hardware flaw and cannot be fixed with a patch. Feel free to upgrade to sensor version 2.0, now with improved accuracy! (read: the problem still exists but isn’t as bad). Only another 40k to buy the new hardware, rip out the old hardware (which is now worthless), install the new stuff, and configure the software for everything (again, maintenance and IT costs)
9 months after deployment the company is doing poorly because their product is stupid and only a few idiots actually bought it (way to go idiot). There’s concerns because they sent a new Eula that outlines data sharing policies. They are potentially finding ways to harvest the data they agreed to safely store to try and create a new revenue stream to right their sinking ship. District counsel says fighting the Eula change will be expensive and there’s not much precedent for it, plus they state they will anonymize data before sharing so it’s not a ferpa violation, technically. It feels scummy but you can’t do anything about it. You also don’t really trust them to only sell anonymized data but you can’t prove they aren’t crossing that line so whatever, I guess
15 months after deployment they get hacked because they’ve run out of vc cash, never could get an actual profit stream going (turns out they’re spending 750,000/yr on salaries for 5 people and they’re all kitted out with sick work computers for what is basically coding a web app, but I digress). security of their servers was one of the budgetary constraints they chose to make to right the ship (but had to keep the $1800 office chairs and the 15-20k/mo rent loft they use as an office in a hcol area). The contract says this may happen and they’re not responsible unless there’s gross negligence on their part, which you can’t prove, and that they do some bare minimum reactionary shit after the fact to mitigate damage. So they’re legally blameless and now you get to notify your community their children’s data was leaked to god knows who, whoops
22 months after the fact they go out of business officially. You get a form email about the company’s journey and the difficult decision they had to make to stop fucking around on a dumb project that sucks because no dumbass vc will give them fun bucks anymore to keep playing tech bro billionaire. All the sensors stop working because they require a connection to the servers, which they shut off immediately without a sunset period. You’re reminded every day when you log in to the schools admin panel and get 350 “sensor not connected” error messages and your students bitch about the “sensor not connected: server not available” error pop up showing up on their classroom console. It takes IT a few days to remove their shit from the network and that costs you even more money in wasting your IT staff time when they should be fixing the broken computers in the computer lab or whatever.
Now your school has a bunch of weird boxes on the wall. Sometimes people ask you about them and you go “oh those don’t do anything” and remember that they cost taxpayers in your community tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars and wasted hundreds of hours of your supports staffs time that they could’ve been using to improve the school
But then you scroll on instagram and see there’s this new thing that will detect when kids are bullying each other. You just have to put a camera in each classroom. It’s okay, it won’t record. It will just use the power of AI and machine learning. You’re sold right there and the cycle starts again
This sounds about right. My only quibble is about sick computers and web apps. Twenty years ago I felt good because all I needed was a text editor and a web browser. Nowadays, the hungriest apps on my desktop are Firefox and VS Code.
Finally, a local WEEE company gets to make a few hundred bucks selling off the glorified VOC sensors at the end.
Best comment I've read for a long time
a docker
Something tells me you don't really know Docker
I mean like running their hypothetical control software/framework within a docker on a local server. Is that illogical? I do the same for the software that runs my ip cameras with my home server, instead of them needing to connect to some external server.
You’re ultimately right though, when it comes to docker I am at the proficiency level of “can deploy other people’s images” and not so much on the “have bothered to make my own”
My work had something like this to detect drug usage on premises for a while (it was and is a problem still) and it costed like 30k capital and 2-3 opex a year. We had it for like a year and only took it out because there were too many false flags and security didn’t and doesn’t have the staff to be chasing down every alert anyway.
It was neat that on paper it was able to detect different drugs, heroin, weed, meth all flagged different alerts with 2 of those contacting police when detected. Unfortunately it was only like 70% accurate and we didn’t/don’t have enough security staff to use it properly so it’s gone now.
Good God I hate linkedin types. Imagine thinking writing an app that literally just displays a single notification is worthy of making a whole post about. They basically wrote a Hello World app for Android TV. And I'm sure they got paid like 40k by some poor school district to do so.
.... Do you think reading a sensor and then accurately determining when the sensor data meets a threshold is the same as displaying static text? Kind of an exaggeration
Vape “detectors” are the latest off-the-shelf scam product sold to well-meaning but technically clueless school administrators. They don’t work at all but they have a solid sales pitch. This tv app isn’t doing anything but forwarding a notification provided by the manufacturer of the “detection “ device.
At least there are some criticisms. Considering it's LinkedIn, forever, it will get drowned by a sea of synergy pivoting lunatics.
Rare LinkedIn ✨positive vibes✨ theater going off-script
In my high school they managed to rip the alarm's siren off the wall without triggering it; if these kids have even an 1/8 th of the ingenuity they had, these things aren't gonna last
Its amazing the number of problems in life that can be solved with a $2 harbor freight automatic punch. Speakers especially.
A very long time ago, and much less technologically advanced:
I went to boarding school. We had a little bit of a propensity for sneaking out of the dorm at night.
New dean comes in our senior year and installs alarms on all the exits.
Our senior year time capsule contains the controlling keypad to that alarm system that wasn't even functional for twenty four hours.
I've no doubt that today's teens possess the ingenuity to bypass if not completely disable this thing.
That seems like a management issue.
They can see the time it went offline and then the time you walked out of the bathroom. It doesn't take much to put it together.
Also I think these devices are designed to be resistant to tampering.
Blowing vape smoke directly into the sensor to try to get the high score
Blowing smoke directly into your friend's sensor to ge them in trouble.
Or ya know, vaping in the hall where you don't have your own personal sensor and you'll be back in class by the time any sensor goes off.
The dildo of an unintended consequences is approaching.
Bullies will start blowing vape smoke on other kid's desks to get them in trouble. And someone will eventual create a smoke-box class room to get the screen to light up with alerts.
Then what? You need to cross reference the alerts with a video feed or snapshots.
Then some genius will figure that using AI to analyze all of the data is easier than manually doing so.
The device still needs a human to investigate. Also it can't narrow it down to specific students. All it can say is that there was vaping related chemicals detected in the bathroom.
the sensors aren't placed on desks, you can see that the displays are placed outside of bathrooms because that's where kids generally vape. my high school has sensors inside the bathrooms on the ceiling and they don't work. you're thinking of a scenario that's incredibly difficult and costly to implement, I assure you no district would be willing to hook this bullshit up to EVERY DESK. the term "Simon's desk" here is likely just a name for one of the sensors they used to test this concept, with the sensor being located at the desk of a developer named simon
How is this invading someone's privacy? All it's doing is detecting if children are smoking in a room or space at school and then putting an alert up about the detection on a screen.
They have zero right to privately smoke at school, or anywhere for that matter, smoking is illegal for children and not something to be taken lightly.
Similarly, adults have no right to privately smoke whilst in the workplace in the bathroom or other non-smoking designated areas. This is also illegal and not to be taken lightly.
I agree. These are anonymous messages. I don't see any privacy violations.
They could set up camera's that record who's entering and leaving the restroom and thus violate privacy but this seems fair play to me. They'll just vape somewhere else.
Yeah, we have similar sensors at my job. I work in a highly secured facility and smoke/vape detectors are installed in all the bathrooms. It makes the fire alarm go off if detected.
How is this invading someone's privacy?
So you think they will not use this to try to identify the vaping student?
So you think we should all be allowed to smoke in non-smoking places? The school already has all info on all it's kids, what else "private" is being revealed here? If you break the rules of the establishment where you are, they'll try to identify and ban you, because that's how private property and bylaws work. School is no different. If you break the rules you face the consequences.
Is this logical and useful? No. Does it help kids become better and learn? No. Will it actually reduce vaping? No, it's a leaderboard now.
But is it invading privacy? Also no. It is enforcing nonsensical draconic rules, but not revealing any information that wouldn't be already known or demanded by the institution in that situation.
They ought to use it that way if they aren't. Privacy does not mean "flagrant ability to flout rules or laws"
You do get that smoking and vaping are the different things right?
Those things are generally not illegal.
It’s illegal to buy/sell tobacco as/to a minor. It’s not illegal to use tobacco.
Most of the restrictions on smoking are not by law, but policy. 12 states don’t have any sort of ban on tobacco use.
Wow, you're lame as hell
Is that what we call people who are obviously right now?
pretty wild you can still type with that boot in your mouth. how do you see around it? do you just touch type?
I see critical thinking is not your cup of tea. Might want to take that boot out of your ass.
Vaping is not the same as smoking and can be done perfectly safely with no drugs involved at all (i.e. flavor only vapes). It's barely different than inhaling steam.
Edit: I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and now think "relatively safely" is a better way of putting this. There's a few concerns that I'm perfectly happy to live with as an adult, but I get that kids won't have spent as much time trying to understand the risks.
It technically is a kind of steam in fact, actually. Even with drugs involved.
I think it's literally almost the same shit that's in fog machines, juice is PG, VG, Flavoring, and Nic, fog machines are (iirc) PG, VG, water, maybe essential oils for smell. You don't have to use USP food grade VG/PG for the fog though.
Imagine paying taxes for education and they spend it on shit like this.
I strongly suspect stuff like this happens at rich people's private schools.
Ain't no public school in the US got money for this.
Nah. Poor public schools spend waaaay to much money on shit like this. Source: Have worked as a teacher in a poor public school.
Rich kids at private schools aren't wasting time vaping. They have cocaine they bought off someone on the faculty or brought in from mommy and daddy's stash at home.
Unless there will be disciplinary follow-up ( -> no reason for this design), I only see this going the way of de-facto scoreboards among kids.
Considering it only detects if someone in the bathroom is vaping and not who, disciplinary action just isn't really possible with your typical school restroom.
They can just send in security to investigate. Maybe not every time the alarm is tripped but if they start seeing often they can start making connections. They can basically plan a bust once in a while.
Kids will vape at the sensors just to see them on the TV
new challenge, get your name on every bathroom vape moniter in 1 day
Tech Bros make a panopticon and call it a novel approach
A panopticon where it's assumed that the inmates will repeatedly smash the doors, and the prison guards will repeatedly have to order new ones.
*sips beer* ah, the cycle of business
Bubble gum stuck into the sensor coming in 5 seconds...
Big LED light outside bathroom
paper sign underneath light "vaping detected"
The amount of over enginnering that went into this is why we can't have nice things.
If you want to record it, hook it up to a computer somewhere, detect whenever the sensor state changes and send an email to the admins...or just point a camera at it and the doorway.
Kids figure out how to provide false positives in 3... 2... 1...
Doing minor "crime" in school was how I became a programmer!
Which of us didn't crack the school firewall multiple times as they made it more and more annoying each time!
Kids are gonna find ways to vape. It's just the way it is. Just like when I was a kid we all found ways to smoke. Making it more difficult just gives them more drive to "get away with it." Sometimes I feel like all these preventative measures that people come up with were by people that were never even a kid. Like banning fruity flavors. I started smoking when I was 14 and it wasn't because it tasted good.
Naah in all for the ban on fruity flavours. A lot of people, myself include, growing up didn't smoke because it tasted like trash. Imagine if cigarettes tasted like hot chocolate!
It doesn't remove all vapers, but it doesn't increase the numbers either.
It's preposterous. First of all, you aren't my mother, you don't get to decide what other adults do with their own goddamn body, this includes "inhale flavoring."
Now with that out of the way: The flavor bans are not for kids, kids are also banned from the "tobacco" flavors as well, the bans are targeted at the customers and legally that is supposed to be only adults. And as me and the other guy you're responding to are proof of, it isn't the yummy flavor that originally attracted us to things like fucking Marlboro Reds as children, and the flavor that was present was not a deterrent. Frankly, if we're banning good flavored ecigs because "kids who aren't supposed to get them anyway want them more" then so too must we ban flavored vodkas like Ciroc, and hard ciders, white claws, most mixed cocktails, hell even sour beers and delicious trappist ales are too sweet, any alcoholic beverage that doesn't taste like an oak barrel has to go, because adults can't like good flavors so those must be to entice children to buy them even though just like the vape store the sign on the liquor store door says "must be 21 to enter."
The point of the flavor ban is to make it so that adults who are legally able to buy it in the first place have a less enjoyable experience trying to quit or switch from analogue cigarettes, and as a result are more likely to go back to the cigarettes. It was lobbied for by the big tobacco and pharma corps, you're spreading their propaganda unwittingly.
Regular full flavored vape juice is by far the most effective and successful smoking cessation or harm reduction tool available to us to date, better than patches, gums, pills, yadda yadda. The tobacco corps want you using their products, and big pharma wants you to take Chantix, they do not want you vaping because they want to take your money while they kill you, and they can't do that if you have something that is 95% safer than their arsenic and fiberglass sticks and tastes like Pineapples.
Don't do it in a place used by others. This makes the bathroom usable
Also vaping is very bad for your brain. It is highly addictive and the younger the start the higher chance you will never be able to stop. Also I would also be concerned that they end up getting vapes with drugs in them. It has happened with weed.
Of all problems US schools are dealing with, surely vaping is the one that requires the most urgent action.
It is very bad for young brains
Not as bad as being shot.
Sure it seems draconian, but how else are we going to get the kids to stop vaping and start smoking cigarettes like we did when we were in high school?
Won't someone please think of Phillip Morris' profit margins?
Doesn't Phillip Morris profit from vapes, too?
Bringing vapes as a popular nicotine delivery system is literally the way tobacco companies are able to proliferate and return smoking into fashion.
Also, smoking should be prohibited as well. Not only because it hurts the smokers themselves, but because others are affected without their consent.
Look honestly I don't think this is that dystopian.
Smoke detectors existed in bathrooms forever. The main use in high school seems to be catching particularly dumb teenagers smoking cigarettes in the bathroom. When I was in high school they were tuned to be super sensitive to the point where water vapor could set one off. I remember one time where the entire school had to stand out in the rain after a fire alarm went off, in what was later determined to be just two teenagers smoking in the bathroom.
Teachers also have been trying to catch students smoking for like 50 years. Back in the 20th, there were assistant principals that basically roamed the halls looking for whiffs of cigarette smoke. Part of the reason memes about hanging out under the bleachers started is because it was the best place to smoke on account of being outside, out of the way, and old school gym teachers just not giving a fuck.
This dudes app just seems like a modern update on very old concepts. Instead of teenagers smoking cigarettes, they are vaping. Instead of a smoke detector, you have something designed specifically for vapes. Instead of some super anal assistant principal on patrol, you have some super anal assistant principal sprinting across the school. Who knows, maybe this is the thing that forces teenagers to touch grass because I'm willing to there aren't vape detectors under the bleachers and gym teachers still don't give a fuck.
I am all for vape detectors. They only detect the fumes and aren't really that invasive. They are basiclly specialized fire alarms.
Nicotine is very bad for developing brains. I don't understand why you are ok with minors using it in a public school of all things.
Nobody said they were ok with young people vaping. The point people are making is that communication and discipline, both things that require time and skill, would be a better, less invasive approach.
The point people are making is that communication and discipline, both things that require time and skill, would be a better, less invasive approach.
Perhaps that's being done as well?
But even if it is, that approach doesn't work with all people, no matter how skillful or how much time is put into it.
My problem with it is the whole purpose of what the device does based on the post is stupid. It just puts a notification on the screen as a way to try and use social pressure to get people to stop vaping. But that doesn't work cause no one really cares if you vape or not. Some people might even think it's cool or might turn it into a game of trying to vape without setting it off to impress their other friends who vape. I graduated highschool in 2019 and people definitely vaped and the only people they really cared about hiding it from were the teachers, no other students cared at all. So because of all of that this kind of device is just a waste of money that could be better spent on educating kids on how vaping is bad, just like what we did for cigarettes that worked so well.
"what I thought you all had phones"
Nicotine is very bad for developing brains.
[Citation needed]
While I don’t disagree that kids shouldn’t be vaping, let’s at least stick to the realm of truth.
I didn't thinking that idea was still in dispute. There have been multiple studies in this area. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543069/
Source: uh, been alive for a few years.
As it was with standardized testing, so shall it be with personal behavior: the goal is not to inform the student why, but to enforce compliance.
There's a lot of good points being tossed around but I think this one is particularly good.
Introducing!
The Narc App!
Sure to be a hit. Hit with the closest blunt object.
I’m in tech and could never take myself seriously ever again if I built this.
Schools are more like prisons nowadays
Start them early
Reeeeeeee! Fucking badges and metal detectors.
I'll chime in with a weird take: this is a privacy community, we are united in a sense of defending our peaceful and unproblematic browsing on the internet and sending messages to friends from lunatics who seem to want everyone treated with the suspicion of highest criminal activity. the article posted describes a "privacy infringement" onto someone who not only has already broken the rule, but strongly publicized it by making people have to smell it. the perpetrators didn't even have an expectation of privacy, so the premise is ridiculous.
I'll say it like this: if the tv detects nicotine patches on someone's skin, then i pick up the torches and pitchforks.
This. It's a sensor, detecting only a specific air type. Not a camera, not a microphone. It doesn't have to do with privacy, this is not "scan and collect data about all to punish one" and cannot be turned into one.
I'll agree it's a fuc**ing dumb idea. Like utter useless garbage. Classic capitalistic "fix behavioral trash-consumption issue with overpriced fancy tech products that sound amazing in theory and are garbage in practice, without fighting the problem at the root". Screenshot comment said tax moeny but I'm willing to bet this is some kind of private school.
This may be a controversial take, but maybe we shouldn't surveil children in bathrooms full stop.
I think your take is too far. It’s just beyond reasonable.
If a teacher were outside the room and heard a loud crash, they’d go investigate. This is doing the same thing.
It isn’t identifying individuals, it doesn’t record any information about a person, it simply flags that somebody is breaking the rules and is worth taking a look.
This is about the least invasive technological solution you could get.
And it’s a heck of a lot better than alternatives like removing the stall doors.
It's not surveilling children, it's surveilling the byproducts of vaping.
Someone is going to smash the sensor day 1.
Its easy enough to make a tube to blow through that should remove enough particulates to bypass the sensor. The kids would never figure this out though. /s
I wish they would. It might mean fewer fire alarms tripped by vapes. (I work in a college library and it's not funny have to evacuate the building just because someone decided to vape in a study room.)
Somebody teach the kids to pentest: get into their REST API and ring it for every desk this stupid sensor is placed in. If you're better than average, get into the operations of the electric controller which these sensors are powered through and fry them. Cost the school millions and they'll (maybe) come to their senses
Well, seems they already had the vaping sensors implemented and they're just announcing the notifications implementation... How hard is to just build am android app that displays a list and a popup?
Home Assistant, school gestapo edition?
SIMlink 4G
Are these sensors connected to a cell network? What the hell? More than half my life ago, when I was in high school, we had wifi...
Yeah but putting it on 4G gives them a reason to charge for continuous use of the system and lock them in to their web based proprietary platform.
For what amounts to a fucking LED facing a photo sensor that you could've had the students make and attach to a red light.
Wait till this crowd hears about smoke detectors.
Quite an expensive toy for the children. Because the boys will play around with it.
And girls and non binary folk.
This is reminiscent of the dystopian "name and shame" displays China has for jaywalkers. Good job, tech bro! Another innovation in our developing surveillance state.
Just make it look uncool! Cigarettes' image went from "cool" to "I'm 12 and I want to be taken seriously by mom/oh my god why did I even tried it". From "hip" vaping, where should it's image go? (Besides down the drain)
That looks like the emblem for my old high school, all 13+ years ago. If the kids are anything like we used to be, this will not last and will either have some one smash it, or just turn it off at the wall. Hell as pointed out, odds are the ones doing it don't give a damn and revel in the attention.
Needs more "amazing." Seriously, screw these corporate ass monkeys.
🎉 Exciting news!
Oh God, no!
(In response to the OOP, not the OP here)
Fuck off snitch mind your own goddamn business!
The funny thing is: This is very likely just a VOC detector with a fancy API. I can't imagine that they spent too much on actual hardware development, especially as they are afaik not a real hardware company.
So it will be triggered by VOC.
You know what else does cause a lot of VOC to be distributed in a environment?
Yeah. Taking a proper shit.
This has very likely never been tested on an actual toilet.
Man, there are a lot of fascists on Lemmy.
At least in the United States, most schools are not a place of privacy as the schools have a certain right to authority over their pupils. Consider Tinker v. Des Moines and what it meant for freedom of speech in schools. That case won students the right to freedom of expression. It's important, but in certain cases it becomes limited by Morse v. Frederick, a case that ultimately meant that such expression must not disrupt the learning environment. All of this is to say that students have certain freedoms until expressing those freedoms is disruptive to the learning experience, and I don't think there's any solid argument that would not consider vaping disruptive to the learning environment. Considering this as an invasion of privacy is a moot point when you consider that students don't really have the same rights as adults, especially in public school situations.
Apart from everything else, this is horrible UI.
A pop-up with an X to close button that's supposed to be shown on a TV, which will have no mouse attached.
The text doesn't even read like something that should be customer-facing.i dont see how this is a violation of anyones privacy and trying to get kids to not get addicted to drugs is a pretty fucking good cause.
Assuming this is just a sensor for air quality tuned to this use case, I would probably have to agree. So long as it isn’t tracking specific students or taking photos, this is about as privacy invansize as the motion detector that opens automatic doors… or any old carbon monoxide or other detector which are used to legit protect public safety, just as preventing children from the claws of the tobacco industry.
Lemmy generally has a pro-drugs sentiment, which is certainly unsettling.
Also, can I visit bathrooms and not get into clouds of vape smoke, pretty please?
i mean im all for letting people approach drugs as they please but, someone smoking weed once in a while with some frinds is not the same as massive corporations flooding media as specifically media for children with propaganda to get them addicted to nicotine. Being pro that isnt so much being pro drug as its being a corporate bootlicker and downright irresponsible.
I don't know what's with the downvotes, you're pretty spot on. Some people are too privacy-oriented on this sub
Addicted to drugs!? We're talking about vaping here. Don't strain your hand clutching those pearls.
This is why being a wizard is illegal in Dragon Age.
How to get overdoses from pills instead of highly controllable doses from vape pens.
You think kids are controlling their doses?
Yes.
Edit:/At least the ones that "count" (regular and/or addicted users)
the way this was framed i thought they were using like cameras and shit to detect vaping. it's just the fumes?
yeah lol fuck you, don't smoke.
also i don't care whether it's for kids or not. no one should smoke. breathing air wherever you are is a right. fuck your smoking.
edit: i think some smokers or vapists may have misunderstood what i meant by the comment above. to be clear, fuck all of you who vape or smoke anything anywhere another human being breathes. you disgusting, smelly cunts.
i hope that clears any misunderstanding ♥
I 100% support this initiative.
• Not an invasion of privacy.
• Activating a sprinkler would be a better deterrent than sending an alert to Simon.
Yes it is an invasion of privacy if it recognizes which student it is (not entirely clear based off of the post). The sprinkler idea is fabulous though.
One of the dumber positions I've seen in a while: that it's someone's right to break the rules and put others' safety at risk with fucking vaping, and disallowing that is against anyone's privacy.
edit: judging this sub so hard by this post and its comments. wow.
