saw someone say maybe another trump win is good because it will mobilize the left a little more
threw up in my mouth a bit through the tears
It's a round about way of saying they want a civil war.
It blows my mind that we're still discussing this after the German left took this approach with Hitler.
There is no "after fascists". Fascists are the enemy that we unite against. Hitler wouldn't have come into power if the leftists and moderates cooperated and had a healthy relationship. Even if some factions of the left/moderates want to play off fascists for power, there's still plenty of people in the relevant group who dislike the fascists. Unite with them to take down the fascists and elements of their party who empower them.
We'll get nowhere if we assume the entire group of leftists/moderates are fascist supporters. We need to ally.
The trolls ive spoken to here are afraid of leftist solidarity. They claim they want change, but whine and cry the second you call for all roads for change to be taken. Mutual aid, direct action, and voting are praxis. We will have an impossible time trying to get any of those first 2 done under dumbass.
As someone on the far end of the left spectrum, any and all leftward movement must be embraced at all opportunities. How am i to convince anyone to work together with me, if I shit on their methods? All must be embraced. Some will be more effective, some less, but thats how we make connections.
Its about time this country learned what solidarity is.
Very well spoken. Even if the progress is minor, it's helping some people, and that's important. Obamacare was not the ultimate, perfect healthcare fix, but it did give a whole lot of people affordable healthcare where they didn't previously. It was a cause worth supporting for that reason. And as someone who had to rely on it for a time, I greatly appreciate it.
If we've made someone's life better or easier, we've succeeded. That to me is practical leftism. We help as many as we can as much as we can. Since we aren't in unilateral power, that means we have to compromise. And working with colleagues will be more successful than being combative. The lone socialist in the Virginia House was able to get a lot done that way.
I like to point to one of the most successful Socialist parties that ever existing in the USA: The Socialist Party of Milwaukee. They got 3 mayors elected and effected actual change.
Part of the Socialist Party's lasting success in Milwaukee can also be attributed to their pragmatism, Gousha says. Daniel Hoan made a point to exist within a capitalist free market system, they were fiscally conservative, and they worked with other parties to accomplish their goals.
Their pragmatism drew criticism from other socialists around the country, who called Milwaukeeans "sewer socialists" for not being revolutionary enough, according to Gousha.
"As Gene Zeidler said, 'The socialists of Milwaukee took that as a badge of honor. And they said, well you may think we need to be more revolutionary but you could not be elected dog catcher and we’re winning elections,' " Gousha notes.
Majority of People: I want a pony.
Candidate 1: I'm going to kill all the ponies.
Candidate 2: I won't do that, and will try to make ponies more affordable (because price-fixing the cost of ponies is not within my constitutional powers)
Leftist: "But that's not good enough! I want a free pony. And a blowjob. I'm voting 3rd party 😤"
Do keep in mind these aggressive purist Gatekeeping / no true Scot leftists are very often just right-wing astroturfers. It hits two birds with one stone: they make leftism obnoxious, they often muddy the waters of violence, and wedge-drive the Democratic coalition to get Trump elected.
Either that or they're very young and naive.
Don't fall for it. You'll see more of this the closer the election gets.
Spot fucking on, but its that second group, the young and naive that make these points worth arguing and harping on about. Sometimes those of us whove been online our whole lives forget the indoctrinating power of the internet. Shit, thats what pushed me further and further left, and still does to this day.
And ur last sentence.... oof... i know.... brace yourselves, and kick up the counterefforts.
$5 say the "They should earn my vote" line is a favorite of right wing and Russian trolls a la 2018's #WalkAway movement.
3rd party: “I can make big promises willy nilly because there is zero chance I’ll win and therefore won’t be held accountable”
The leftist in this comment also makes sure to plug their ears nice and good if u tell them that the first candidate is financed by foreign powers literally hostile to anything u hold dear, a situation beyond unprecedented.
Voting is the least u can do politically, but it is still praxis, and absolutely necessary given the circumstances.
free pony and blowjob
Avasarala for president!
The poster is just "go fuck yourself"
Candidate 1: I will keep giving guns to the people killing ponies but I will feel bad about it and criticize them sometimes
Candidate 2: I will give the guns and not feel bad.
Leftist: hey can anyone just, you know, not help people kill ponies?
Centrist: omg I can't believe you're asking for so much from your candidates. Your ideological purity is the real enemy here. I bet you don't even care about ponies
Real strange way to make a point
Candidate 2: I’m going to give guns and money to the person killing ponies but tell them they shouldn’t do it.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
Centrist: Noooo, you have to vote for the proxy pony killer who can’t use his position to do anything or else you’ll get a pony killer in power who’ll use his position to do everything.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
"Something different" here meaning "handing over the position to the worse of the two options".
You said it so perfectly and I never realized it. "If you elect our guy, he won't be able to do anything, but at least it's better than if you elect the other guy. If you elect the other guy, somehow he'll be able to do everything he wants. But vote for our impotent guy instead. It's safe!"
Um what?
You literally can't try something different, in this election. It's physically impossible. Leftists should be channeling this energy to the next election, and building a viable candidate that truly meets their needs.
Already had a tankie tell me they're voting 3rd party.
Putin thanks them while Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
Don't worry, tankies love Russia's Legitimate Security Interests in performing genocide in Ukraine.
"Anyone who disagrees with me is a tankie." The left loves their cringe labels as much as the extreme right. Tankies, fascists, nazis, demon rats, librules, alt right, control left, it's all the same nonsense. You morons deserve each other.
This is going to happen every election for the foreseeable future. Trump is not a illness he's a symptom. Eventually a right winger is going to win because we're stuck voting for a party that often ignores their constituents for business interests. That's how we got Trump in the first place and the DNC learned nothing.
All the while we could vote third party like in most healthy democracies but we can't because neither of the major parties want a third party and voters are to cowardly to vote 3rd party because "they won't win anyway" even when they actually represent what they want in a on policy. See Nader and Bernie
Fact is neither Democrat or Republican is going to attempt to change s system that actively benefits them, especially in the higher positions of authority. The fact that voting 3rd party is considered throwing away your vote should be more embarrassing to Americans as a whole.
It's not "considered" throwing your vote away. Under a FPTP voting system, it is throwing your vote away. Nobody who tells you that says it gleefully like we just love that we and you can't vote third party effectively. It's just the mathematical reality of our voting system and it has to be changed before voting third party becomes an option that is anything but symbolic and self-defeating.
The DNC is not the ephemereal vague boogeyman the left tries to make it out to be. It's an organization focused on winning elections and accomplishing policies for the Democratic constituency. You are making the mistake of hating the player instead of the game.
If third party votes are important to you, join a local political group focused on expanding another voting choice method like Ranked Choice or STAR voting. You're already on the easier half of the ideological spectrum to wage this fight from, since most sponsors of alternatives are from democratic groups.
The players decide the game rules.
I would say that the DNC learned that they can keep doing what they are doing and it will be okay. If they're lucky, they get Obama. If they're unlucky, they get Trump, and it's easier to drum up support for Biden.
He's both a symptom and an illness.
I think people who are young enough to not remember the world before Obama don't realize this is so so so so so far from the norm that we don't have any clue what's going to happen.
Biden would have been a decent GOP candidate in the 90s. It'd have sucked to see him elected but it would have been a few years of uncomfortable conservative stuff. Where people argue about how much power we want to give to corporations or whatever... But now it's so far past that...
Tell me which democrats before Trump's term was "ignoring their constituents for business interests" - show your work, please. Because you sound like a bipartisan moron.
If you can't understand how bad trump was and will be, you're fucking retarded. I agree that trump is a symptom but the disease is dumbasses that value social issues like abolishing trans rights and wanting to restore the ability to say the "hard R" without getting fired.
Biden (or his cabinet, whatever) has done so much good for this country that it fills me with a white hot rage that there's still so much opposition to what is essentially the best presidency we've had in decades. You know what? I think you're part of the problem. I think you don't know the first thing when it comes to policies, legislation, bills, laws, economic incentives, budgets, etc. I think you think you're just "looking at both sides, man".
Sorry if that's a bit harsh but you guys speak so confidently about issues you know nothing about. I'll try to make it easier: if you're a Democrat, vote Biden. If you're not a Republican, vote Biden. If you don't like Biden but hate Trump, then vote Biden. If you're unsure (then you shouldn't be allowed to have kids, honestly) vote Biden and thank me later. If you're a Trump supporter I'll pray for you but vote Trump. If you're a Republican and don't like Trump, I'm so sorry.
Don't get so shocked when someone points out that the Washington establishment shares a lot of common values. I think we all know that intuitively, and yet here you are cussing people out because they pointed it out yet again.
You want some issues that show how Obama failed, how Biden has failed? Okay. Campaign finance reform, housing, strict anti-monopoly legislation, stopping wars.
The biggest thing in your rant that you got totally wrong is that you talked about both sides as if there are only two sides. In reality everyone has their own agenda, but if you get stuck in that trap where you think there's only two people that you could possibly support it's easy to forget that neither of them cares about most of the things that you hold dear.
I think genocide is bad and that Build Back Better was always going to be killed by the Democratic Party from the very start
He is a C+ president at absolute best.
Which makes him the best president since LBJ
Which means we need to dispose of our current political and civic order and replace it with a better model.
Even something like Finland would be a drastic improve
The foreseeable future looks like the rightwingers are outnumbered. Keep democracy alive, and you will live to see very different candidates running than the dinosaurs your used to. Theres more than a couple reasons why the 2 front runners are do old.
It's not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don't agree with him on everything I know that he won't turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
Edit: I change my mind. After seeing Bidens debate performance it is pretty obvious that he is going to lose. Unless if the Democrats replace Biden with a candidate who can actually speak. I will be voting for Jill Stein instead.
Edit 2: Turns out Biden dropped out. I will now vote for whoever the democratic nominee is but after this election I will be voting 3rd party from now on.
Please, for the love of god, be good enough to vote for.
Sorry best we can do is give you someone bad enough to vote against.
"People get the government they deserve"
Hope they line you sanctimonious bastards up against the wall before me, so at least there's some silver lining to the coming fascist dystopia.
Leftists who won't vote are saying:
"Making a political statement is worth not only having Trump for president for the next four years, but living under a Trump for the rest of my life or fighting another world war to escape it."
"I'm so mad at the current president for doing genocide that I'm going to stand down and tacitly support his other opponent to do genocide instead."
Nah this is backwards, Democrat voters need to get behind the left. If the left aligns with Democrats we continue to ratchet to the right. If everyone did what the left wants there is a way out. Either get behind the left or support the right either directly or indirectly, that's the choice right now.
Democrats try to shame the left into supporting them, blame them for the failure, then call you a fascist because you didn't vote for one. Fuck that, Democrats don't have the high horse to say that from anymore except to each other. Democrats who support the left can do it by voting that way, otherwise they're enabling the current system just as much as Trump supporters. The conditions that give us Trump don't go away without a socialist project.
Democrat voters need to get behind the left
Any strategy that requires millions of dumb people to make wise decisions is simply not going to happen.
I see things this way
There is a small number of good people driven to make the world a better place, e.g. me and you and many of us on Lemmy
There is a tiny number of really bad people (e.g. psychopaths), these are your right wing leaders (gov't, church, etc) and very rich people
There is a small number of people willing to kill others for a paycheck because they were ordered to do so (military, police, intelligence) or are sadists
A larger number of people that are mostly goodish but not wise and not motivated to improve anything for others -- they just do their thing
About 35% dumb people that would not care one whit about politics -- This is the main group where the future will be made
These numbers are pulled from my ass but get my point across.
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The good people are already trying, but so many are convinced by propaganda from foreign dictators (somehow they clearly see American propaganda and are totally blind to that coming from dictators that claim to be communists) that the way to make things better is to kill a bunch of people and force everyone else to labor under the dictators instruction. We've seen the damage this can do before to society and to the environment.
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The bad people are not going to turn good, they are the enemy.
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The enforcement class will be an enemy as long as they are paid, remove the money and we just need to watch out for unorganized assholes and sadists
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The goodish people can only be prodded to vote better, that is of limited utility in making the world better, but it can hold off fascism for a time (I want to be clear, our current situation is bad, fascism is much worse, much much worse).
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It's the dumb people -- the normal situation is they are not very powerful or organized. What's changed in recent years is that this group has been activated -- they've been turned into an idiot army serving the tiny number of very bad people. ( I think Steve Bannon and Roger Stone were key here)
This means, they way to get out of our quagmire is to deactivate the idiot army, and they use leftist tactics to push things in the right direction outside of electoral politics.
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Meanwhile back in reality Trump was the first President in decades to not start a new war. The left keeps promoting the idea that Trump will be so much worse than Biden because he'll do the things Biden is already doing. Trump was a great President and he should win again. The left made these same claims the first time with Trump and none of it materialized except in the deranged fevered nightmares of the left. I can still remember the media saying Trump can't be trusted with the nuclear codes and he was going to start WW3 with Russia. The left projects their own desires onto their opponents then carries them out under the cover of the Jewish media.
Trump assassinated an Iranian general in a third country. Fuck off with this "didn't start a war" shit. The only reason there wasn't a war is they didn't push back.
His dipshit son in law tried to weaponize COVID against blue states because he was too dumb to realize that infectious diseases don't care about political affiliation.
Then he had his supporters try to overthrow a free and fair election.
Trump should die in prison. The sooner the better.
The mysteries of your brain would make a fascinating documentary.
Please vote. I don't live in the US but this election is likely to impact the safety of my family.
Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
this should be the biggest takeaway from this election cycle and it saddens me to see that american liberals drink as much coolaid as maga and that they're become more prevalent in the fediverse.
Why would this surprise you? Democrats are center right politically, they're just as happy to flirt with authoritarianism when it suits them.
Anarchists hate tankies. Tankies hate liberals. Liberals hate anarchists. Meanwhile, Trump, fascism, and Project 2025 is on the horizon. Reach across the divide. When the fascists come for you, are you really gonna ask if the people willing to fight with you are Leninists, Trotskyist, or social Democrats?
We can criticize ideals, but at the end of the day, we’re all fighting fascism.
It's not Kool aid, it's an understanding of reality. There's no chance of running a third party or another democrat in this month of this year in this election .
Your only choice is to either vote Biden, and try to convince him to change policy, or do any other action and be fine with trump, who will never be convinced of anything, will happily build an actual Christian nation-state and is likely compromised by foreign actors .
After the election, hoping Biden wins, is the time for leftists to wake up and build a candidate. If trump wins they may never get the chance due to project 2025.
It's like this:
The floor is covered in broken glass. You must cross it to get out.
You are wearing very uncomfortable high heel shoes.
You can either remove the uncomfortable shoes and walk in the broken glass, taking massive damage. Your feet will never be the same.
Or you can wear the uncomfortable shoes, safely cross the room, and then stop once you are out, and either remove the shoes and find new ones.
Another non-voting/third party stan cosplaying as a leftist.
If im to take ur comic in good faith, ill make like the Spanish anarchists and still participate in the god awful system that we're all apart of either way to reduce the harm it does to me or my comrades. Surely you will recognize that as praxis.
But both sides
Yes my butt is symmetrical with buttcheeks on both aides.
#ButtBothSides
Brav-fucking-O. 100% this. I get comments removed for saying exactly this in other communities, but it’s 100% accurate from what I see.
I'm childish enough that I'm irritated at my comment here being removed. Here's the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg's party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there's an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller's quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn't getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn't left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn't left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don't like. It is a reason I don't bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they'd use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there's a certain pick-me viewpoint like "obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they'd leave me alone," but I don't think that is how it would work out.
Lmao. LinkOpensChest.wav is constantly going on about how mods are persecuting him. How ironic.
The rule that I was banned under was:
- No defending oppressive systems such as capitalism or the US "democracy."
I can't even tell whether to complain that it's weird to tell me I can't defend democracy, or that it's weird to call "it's bad to let the Nazis come to power" a pro-system-of-oppression viewpoint.
(I mean, I get it. I think it's safe to say that the real reason for the ban is neither of those things. I'm gonna let it go and move on with my day.)
Support for the SPD waned because they were pushing to the right to court right wing voters. Sort of like how the sitting US president has been on TV using right wing terminology and how the sitting Democratic mayor in NYC brought back stop and frisk.
There are those that see things drifting away from their priorities and their wants and needs. They've tried working within the system, but the system always makes things worse. Of course people like that will be tempted to "burn it all down" and start anew, or at least throw a wrench in the cogs and stop progress.
We should focus on convincing them that 'progress' is better for them - and if it isn't, maybe we shouldn't support it as well. Unless it is an issue of justice, then of course not letting people 'get away with it' is worse for those people.
How about solidarity? Thats my hope.
I want a very different society than the one ive got. Status Quo Joe sucks dick, but we still have a democracy in which all political avenues are open. Our ends might be different, but the means need not be. We must all work together to make this hellscape liveable.
Did the first thread not work out the way ya wanted it to go?
https://lemmy.world/post/13670700
Reposting what I commented there:
Switching away from first past the post voting allows people to vote for who represents them best while still counting their vote against those they dont want to win. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoilereffect exists that makes third parties not viable.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
So what’s the hold up with the rest of the states? Consider starring a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
Nothings changed. This is still (IMO) the way forward. Who could possibly say no to more democracy?
It really does feel awful. Either vote for an old geezer who keeps sending weapons to a terrorist state committing a genocide, or an orange old geezer who will do all that but will also be an authoritarian dictator. Like what the fuck is even going on anymore. Something has to give.
Ah yes. Its the leftists fault that Biden is running his campaign and his presidency in such a way as to cause people to not want to vote for him.
What do you believe in? What would you vote for? Is it to federally place abortion bans, or to place laws that will restrict freedoms for LGBTQ? To have a president who will arrest and remove all opposition, stack court judges and Congress with people who will only approve what they want whether the majority of the population wants that or not stripping all vestige of it being a Republic, democracy or anything salvageable?
Either you don't want those things and vote for someone who has a chance at beating Trump, or you support those things and are voting for them. Not voting IS a vote.
Your acting like it's my vote that's on the line as if I'm the one you have to convince. Bro, criticizing Joe Biden doesn't mean I'm not going to vote for him; in fact, criticism and forcing him to respond to the fact that no one in his party likes his Gaza policies is the only thing keeping him viable.
Stop being a fucking cheerleader. You are making him less likely to win with your brow beating approach to rhetoric. The fact is the Democrats simply fucking suck at governing and have frankly don't jack shit for their voters since before Obama. You have to address that in your rhetoric as to why one should support Biden. If you can't convince people to get off the couch, you lose. And your dip shit approach about the other side isn't working. It needs to be about why Biden is better or you've failed, so fucking figure it the fuck out. His polling is in the tank. The only thing we can really do is ramp up the criticism and force Joe Biden to be a better candidate, because if left to his own devices, he's already lost.
How many times does this meme have to get posted until people realize it's not changing any votes lol
Trump respect your right to NOT VOTE against him. 👍
If Biden loses, that's his and the DNC's loss. It's up to them to field a candidate that people want to vote for. It's not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want. I will be voting Biden because it's too important. If he loses, I will blame him for running, not the voters. The polling was clear, undeclared Democrat polled much higher than Biden, but for some reason he has main character complex and thought he was the only one that could beat Trump when in reality he might be the only person that can lose to Trump.
If Biden loses, that’s his and the DNC’s loss.
Oh, and also the loss of all of the rest of us who will suffer under another Trump administration.
But fuck the poor, minorities, LGBT folk. We have to show the DNC how principled we are by making sure a fascist is elected!
It’s not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want.
It's up to the voters to make an informed fucking choice. That's the point of citizenship. Voting isn't a fucking popularity contest, it's a civic duty.
Lmao Bidens administration has expanded trumps border cages, continued “building the wall”, contributed billions of dollars in planes, bombs and guns to Israel that he knew explicitly were being used to bomb children(and states that they don’t believe that they are going too far), defunded UNRWA, tried to pass a “ceasefire” that would permanently defund all Palestinian organizations if those organizations supported ICC proceedings against Israel, demonized undocumented workers on live tv, made record expansions to police budgets, took away rail workers right to strike permanently, done nothing to ensure LGBT or minority rights, or women’s rights for that matter, left DeJoy in after he purposefully gutted the USPS, expanded the trade war and maintained trump era blockades on socialist countries (including restricting humanitarian aid from going to Cuba and refusing to remove them from the state sponsors of terror list…) the list literally goes on as long as I feel like typing and then some.,
He’s done some good, too. expanding the powers of the NLRB was a good step, capping insulin prices for Medicare recipients, allowed negotiations on drug prices for Medicare, funded the biggest climate package in US history (less than 10% of what China puts towards climate mitigation each year of course), put considerable money towards public transit and rail expansion, this list will go on for a while too if I wanted to keep typing, but to say that hes done much for minorities, the poor, or LGBT persons is just ridiculous.
He is, as he said during his previous campaign, trying to continue the status quo. He’s not trying to massively shake things up nor to make them better. He thinks things are working pretty well as it is. He keeps touting this economy as if most workers aren’t still struggling to pay their bills, as if most americans still don’t have more than $500 in the bank, as if education isn’t collapsing under the austerity measures previous administrations have instituted.
Our choice is maintenance of the status quo or further descent into fascism. And yes, this country in many ways is a fascist nation.
Blaming people for having consciences is not doing anything to convince anyone to vote for him, it just further alienates those most vulnerable among the citizenry who see that their lives have in no way meaningfully improved over the last 4 years.
It’s up to the voters to make an informed fucking choice. That’s the point of citizenship. Voting isn’t a fucking popularity contest, it’s a civic duty.
Exactly. So don't put the blame on the voters if the DNC can't put up a candidate the voters actually want to vote for. It's the voters job to pick who they want to vote for, it's not the voters job to vote for whomever the DNC tells them to vote for. You have the burden of responsibility backward.
I’ll be doing my civic duty by not voting. Voting is supposed to be about picking the candidate I want. Well, I don’t want either of these two candidates, and I won’t stand for the DNC rubbing its greedy little fingers together in the background, making deals and concessions with whomever they have to in order to push their candidate of choice.
Biden has done some good things. Honestly more than I expected. This does not now, nor has it ever, and nor will it ever give the DNC carte blanche to manipulate the primaries from the shadows to choose their preferred candidate to represent the party in a wide-open field of two people once every four years.
You want someone to blame for the fact that you’re all sweating bullets about how this election turns out? Look to the DNC when you want to point fingers, not the people who they’re trying to sucker into voting for the damage control option every four years.
it sounds like we're in exact alignment with each other on this topic and i'm wondering what your response is to the inevitable finger pointing at leftist from liberals after the election.
also: i'd like to hear your thoughts on the group think talking point that a protest vote against biden is a vote for trump.
it sounds like we’re in exact alignment with each other on this topic and i’m wondering what your response is to the inevitable finger pointing at leftist from liberals after the election.
That's what I've been talking about in this thread. It's up to the party to look inward and realize why they failed and field a better candidate. If they want to point to the finger else where they're just going to pick more losing candidates.
i’d like to hear your thoughts on the group think talking point that a protest vote against biden is a vote for trump.
It's a cop out. You vote for things. If you vote for say a third party then it's exactly that, you voted for a third party you didn't vote for Trump. It's up to the party to win your votes.
Who can we vote for that's not trump or Biden?
The time for voting for was the primaries. The general is when you vote against.
I think the message is "don't you at least want a reach around while you're getting f*cked in the ass." -Dems
And for me. Yes. Yes. I do.
Party for socialism and liberation!
Half the people I see debating this stuff either aren’t old enough to vote or don’t even live in America. The rest are almost always proven wrong by nearly everyone that they speak with-
so much that it’s borderline abusive and hard to watch.
But I do anyway. And I laugh.
Loudly.
Try to withhold ur laughter amigo, the astroturfing will only increase when we get to november. The only way the gop wins this election with their shrunken and rapidly dying base is by keeping turnout low. Its easier to achieve when foreign governments are keen on u achieving power as well.
Solidarity to all leftist ways forward. We get nowhere by standing against each other. We must vote, and when we block roads to stage protests or when we strike we must stand with the protestors/strikers.
Im glad the BS i so easy for so many to see thru. That really gives me hope.
Replace "Leftists who won't vote" with "Democrats who purposely lie about leftists by claiming anyone who isn't voting for Biden isn't voting at all" and you'd have an accurate meme.
Dems claim to be antifascist but will take Trump 2: Electric Boogaloo LONNNGGGGG before they ever consider making concessions to anybody left of mid right Genocide Joe.
I don't understand how you think not stopping a genocide is the same as aiding or committing a genocide.
If you really think those two things are the same dude, you got to look hard in the mirror.
Do people not get that Biden is eradicating the Democratic party's leftist and progressive organization and overall electoral future with his policies?
Local and state elected democrats are facing backlash from a) a genocide and b) massive Israeli lobby primarying every single elected official who isn't cheering on said genocide.
Every single progressive and leftist politician in office is facing a choice: be run out of office or flip on your constituents like Fetterman. Very few are taking the most suicidal political position in America: not supporting Israeli.
Freak out on people criticisizing Biden but those who politically organize should generally see how ignorant these arguments are that ignore the ramifications of policy beyond presidential elections.
Liberals: "We don't need your votes anyway." Also "Liberals please vote, don't protest and don't criticize Joe Biden or you're helping Trump"
Liberals: “We don’t need your votes anyway.”
Find an example of any liberal saying this. Because to me at least, it seems like Democrats and the left are trying to get every vote they can because everyone expects this to be a close election which Trump is arguably winning right now.
I'll criticize the geratarian, but I'll vote for him still. Better a genocide supporter than a fascist US. 4 years from now at least I'll have another option.
" Better a genocide supporter than a fascist US." These are interchangeable.
Oh wow, Biden didn't actively help the genociders one time!!!! Wow! That's certainly means that he has an actively been helping them this entire time. Dude grow up.
Fuck the fascists and the libs
Why not just call us 'social fascists'? It's more classic.
But haven't you heard? Not voting is an opportunity for lefty radicalization!
I hadn’t seen that video, but I agree with it. Guess I’m radicalized now.
This is like watching a bunch of people with Stockholm Syndrom trying to convince each other than one of the people keeping them imprisioned is a good guy and it's the other that's a bad guy.
There is no solution to the problems of the US via the traditional political parties, only via civil society movements and even those given the almost-dictatorship-level of civil society surveillance in the US, are under surveillance and are often subverted.
And everyone who votes for Biden agrees with you. We all also understand that now is not the fucking time
It never is the "fucking time"!
This is why every election cycle as the Republicans get ever more repugnant, the Democrats follow them since all they need to be is a tiny bit less bad - or at least that's what they believe and all the Stockholm Syndrom victims preaching "we have no other choice" keep on confirming their belief every 4 years.
That's how you ended up with a choice between two genocide supporters - because it has never been the "fucking time" for the last 3 decades so the Democracts felt confident to not give a rats arse about their electorate, only big donors and those who give gold-plated non-executive board memberships and million-dollar fees in the speech circuit to "friendly" politicians.
Fine, let's run with this analogy:
This is like watching a bunch of people with Stockholm Syndrom trying to convince each other than one of the people keeping them imprisioned is a good guy and it’s the other that’s a bad guy.
We're all in prison, both dudes will keep us there. One dude wants to murder your gay cell mate and give smaller cells to Hispanic prisoners. Voting, not voting, neither will win you your freedom. Your vote might make your friend's life easier.
There is no solution to the problems of the US via the traditional political parties, only via civil society movements and even those given the almost-dictatorship-level of civil society surveillance in the US, are under surveillance and are often subverted.
Which political party is restricting the speech of LGBTQ+ people right now? Which party wants to put them all on a list? Which party is visibly anti-labor instead of just pretending not to be?
If you want change, fight for it. If Trump wins you activate hard mode.
You know what would be better than trying to convince people to vote for the lesser of two evils? Fucking striking and rioting until you don't have to.
Fuck this election, don't pay taxes until you have a democracy worth paying for.
If MLK was alive today, liberals would hate him as much as they did in the '60s
Go tell Biden to stop supporting Genocide instead of trying to apologize for it.
Like I said months ago, he stops the Genocide or he will lose.
"Apologize"
Funny how u expect nothing of trump whos playbook is right out of putins bible the foundations of geopolitics. But yeah, sure, totally a good faith actor here. The old generation is on its way out. Maybe lets not lose our democracy along the way.
Sure I'm going to go to the third party. I recommend you all do the same unless you're in a swing state. Dr. West and Claudia de La Cruz are actual good candidates.
Curious are you in agreement with West that NATO and the west are to blame for Russia's Invasion of Ukraine? He opposes funding for Ukraine and wants to end the conflict giving Putin parts of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
Someone downvoted, but this is the right answer. Maybe the phrasing should have been reversed. I'll do that here.
I live in California. My vote doesn't matter in that we know California will go blue. Therefore, I can vote my conscience and not vote for Biden because the threat of Trump is neutralized. If people voting for third parties in safe blue stats start trending, Dems will be forced to try to appeal to said voters (the possibility of a third party getting covered in a meaningful way is unlikely at present).
I used to live in Kansas. Kansas was always a red state. It seems like it's become pretty close there now. I would not vote my conscience in Kansas for this election. It's possible that it could be a swing state. The threat of Trump is too great to take the risk.
*Edit: go ahead and downvote Malcom X, you cowards.
[Twenty-two million black victims of Americanism are waking up and they are gaining a new political consciousness, becoming politically mature. And as they become… Develop this political maturity, they’re able to see the recent trends in these political elections. They see that the whites are so evenly divided that every time they vote, the race is so close they have to go back and count the votes all over again. Which means that any block, any minority that has a block of votes that stick together is in a strategic position.
So we agree, then. We (in this case far leftists) are a critical voting block, and as mozz pointed out above, it is imperative that we make use of that fact to keep the fascist out of office.
I realize it was a lot to read, but if you keep going it gets much better:
Any time you throw your weight behind a political party that controls two-thirds of the government, and that party can’t keep the promise that it made to you during election-time, and you’re dumb enough to walk around continuing to identify yourself with that party, you’re not only a chump but you’re a traitor to your race.
These Northern Democrats are in cahoots with the southern Democrats. They’re playing a giant con game, a political con game. You know how it goes. One of them comes to you and make believe he’s for you. And he’s in cahoots with the other one that’s not for you. Why? Because neither one of them is for you. But they got to make you go with one of them or the other.
This is why I say it’s the ballot or the bullet. It’s liberty or it’s death. It’s freedom for everybody or freedom for nobody.
In response to your edit: I'm just downvoting the massive wall of blue text and moving on. It's an eyesore and I'm not going to bother staring at it. I think this would be more effective with a link or links at the end, following plain text.
If you pan the image to the side, you'll find democrats in the corner masturbating over their moral superiority as they funnel more weapons to israel to carry out genocide.
The left refuses to see anything close to the truth and can only acknowledge their own delusions as reality.
I think anyone who's over the age of 20 and doesn't have an unmedicated anxiety disorder can remember how many "fate of our democracy" elections we've had. Remember Bush? Obama? Trump (1)? The only thing dying regardless of who gets the white house is the two geriatric fucks fighting over it.
Yeah that's because every single fucking Republican elected in the last 50 years has been absolutely disastrous for both America and the world. Democrats aren't much better, oftentimes they're just as bad, but every single Republican has fucked us over in some way or another.
Yes, but also no. It has always been pumped up as the most important election ever, but this time we literally have someone in the ballot that incited an insurrection and says they will be a dictator on day one. It's like the boy who cried wolf and this time there is actually a wolf.
I remember people saying that in '04 about how Bush "overthrew democracy" to win his first term. The US Govt. is capable of withstanding a rogue POTUS.
incited an insurrection
Donnie must be dumber than I thought because he literally told those people to go home and leave after the insurrection that he apparently started.
I did not build or consent to this governmental arrangement, and would have been excluded from voting during its formation. I am willing to take a project other people build as my own if I believe it is well intentioned. A well intentioned representative democracy minimally allows me to vote FOR someone who I think is a good person and will make good decisions on behalf of me and mine. Minimally, I refuse to be bullied into putting my own principles on the line by endorsing anyone who I believe will mistreat any sector of the world population. The vast majority of policy does not follow voter preferences anyway.
So you're ok with Trump getting another term in office.
You have put way too much weight on the importance of voting day as part of political action. Save your activism for the other 364 days of the year, please. It's so much more important to advocate and sway opinions then. On voting day you are faced with exactly 2 choices for president and administration by a system which you had very little control over. You have little choice but to be pragmatic then and vote for the lesser of two evils. Again, you have 364 other days to atone for what you perceive as a moral failing.
Edit: 364? My bad. You have 1459 days to work on your actual political goals. Chill out about election day.
Yeah I didn't consent to getting appendicitis either, but my choices were to either get an appendectomy or die. I sure didn't want an appendectomy, but sometimes you have to choose something that you don't like
votes 3rd party because why would I vote for a genocide funder or an insurrectionist
spoiler
yes yes do go on and tell me how genocide abroad is better than insurrection at home instead of actually trying to change the system.
EDIT: U.S signs off more bombs, warplanes for Israel
Yeah, definitely a candidate worth voting for amirite.
Genocide funder the only item you can think of? Think that will magically go away or be better under drumpf? Think of all the money that will flood into Russia
No, I pointed out both as being a terrible option.
Granted Biden's domestic policy is far better than Trump's on account of it not being pure evil.
But it's also just the same copy paste lobbyist policy from Obama, which was false promises and half implemented solutions.
I will gladly vote for him if he stops actively funding a genocide which is a ridiculously low bar to pass.
Even then, he won't, and will inevitably lose in November, and then cry about it instead of listening to his constituency because that's literally the reason I voted for him in the first place.
Hard pass there, votes are earned, and Biden has given us thousands of reasons why we shouldnt vote for him and none as to why. He could do a total 180 and most of us will still remember what hes allowed to happen. I expect politicians to do what’s right the first time, not change course because it might impact their chances of staying in power.
Left eating each other as usual while Republicans with no morals keep winning.
Democrats are mid right, friend. It isn't "the left eating each other," it's "Democrats lying about leftists to further demonize the left so the dnc can keep pushing further right."
Democrats shouldnt be such a shitty party, they are progressive in name only. The public elected Biden, but still got Trump's policies
eye fuckin roll
There’s a lot of nuance and discussion that is just ignored by online people regarding this discussion. I’m sick of the fighting.
Change your horrible voting system. FPTP is the root of all this craziness
and here you are ignoring nuance 😭
no one disagrees with you. no one is in a marriage blood pact with FPTP. people are trying to abolish FPTP but it’s taking time and definitely won’t be done within seven months. the pattern of commentators like you coming into a discussion saying “just do <the obvious>” is about as useless and meaningless as a vegan trying to brigade a barbecue subreddit, or telling a person struggling with gas payments to buy a tesla.
I'm progressive leaning, living in a large California city that will absolutely go blue as well as the state. I see no point in voting for Biden other than to add to the exclamation point of the popular vote which doesn't actually matter for anything. I will vote local and state level, but I don't see the point in voting for Biden as he's not really a candidate I can get behind and my vote is irrelevant thanks to the antiquated electoral college. Change my mind?
The electoral college does manipulate the vote, but it doesn't make votes not matter. Also if everyone in Cali had the mindest that "this state is blue, I don't have to vote to keep it that way" then Cali would become a red state or swing state. Don't just rely on others voting. And if you are already voting at the state/local level, why not also vote for a President?
Los Angeles County here. I'm not voting for Biden either. I don't support genocides. Simple as that.
But if you say you're voting for who you actually believe in, and it's not one of the two, you're also "throwing your vote away" according to many. Anytime I see this all I see is blackmail. "Vote my way or bad things will happen".
It's not a choice, it's coercion. One side actively threatens it and the other side passively threatens it. It's all just threats if you don't fall in line.
It’s not a choice, it’s coercion.
Math is coercion, I guess.
"Being practical" and "harm reduction" seem to also be coersion, too.
If my heart had its way, I'd be voting Peace and Freedom Party. But it doesn't, so I'll be voting for Joe Biden. And that is that.
It's not blackmail, it's reality. No one is threatening you just explaining what's going to happen.
Facts are blackmail. Only pleasant fictions are allowed.
Nobody, at least seriously, is threatening YOU to vote a specific way. The threat comes from one candidate specifically, of which our glorious 2 party system has confirmed will ONLY be one of those two. And he isn’t threatening YOU, but rather our entire way of life. So, go ahead and vote however you want. Just know the repercussions on the grand scale, and maybe be a little humble.
Precisely, we go through this propagandistic scolding campaign every four years. It furthers the interests of the status quo. There are so many reasons to not vote for Biden in say, Florida, where there is absolutely no chance for him to win. And this is just one particular reason/instance among many. We should be building solidarity with leftists and attempt to pull popular political discourse to the left and far away from the corporate demogogs that keep the two parties in power. Alas, liberals punch left because that's not an easy binary thought. It is a destructive mentality.
I won't be voting for Biden in my state (not Florida) because he stands no chance to win here. So why should I back a genocidal horse who will lose here anyways? Fuck Trump and fuck Biden. I will vote for Claudia De la Cruz or Cornell West here. Their voices matter and should get more air time, but corporate america controls the media and the conversation. Hence why this shame scolding propaganda sits here.
No.
I will never vote for Joe Biden again.
How is Joe Biden worse then Trump? It's not about which candidate is good, it's about which candidate is the best of the two.
it doesn't matter which is worse, neither will get my vote.
Jews need to check their privilege.
Every time some racist asshole like you equates Jews to Israel it further enforces the reactions you see from Israel
Check your privilege
I refuse to have Biden elected again just so he can sit in his office and say, "can you believe it? We supported a genocide and killed 30 thousand and people still voted for me!" I know the other option is trump the terrible but at least your strategically setting a precedence that this type of behavior is unacceptable and will send a signal to future presidents.
No. You're not. You're completely wrong. So wrong in fact that you are clearly trolling. But even that's critically dangerous to the future of the world.
My only conclusion is that this post is deliberately targeted rage bait that is aimed at getting trump back in office..
It's gonna do a whole lot of good here in 4 years when our ballots look like this
Then the DemoCRAPS will learn how to find a REAL candidate!
Its like giving a dog a cookie after they piss on the floor, dogs gonna think its ok to piss the floor. Their lesser evil strategy has grown so large and out of control they dont even recognize evil when it sends more bombs to Israel
