Mazda's $10 subscription for remote start sparks backlash after killing open source workaround via DMCA takedown
Mazda's $10 subscription for remote start sparks backlash after killing open source workaround via DMCA takedown
Right-to-repair advocates believe that car owners should have full ownership of the technology embedded in their vehicles
Mazda recently surprised customers by requiring them to sign up for a subscription in order to keep certain services. Now, notable right-to-repair advocate Louis Rossmann is calling out the brand.
It’s important to clarify that there are two very different types of remote start we’re talking about here. The first type is the one many people are familiar with where you use the key fob to start the vehicle. The second method involves using another device like a smartphone to start the car. In the latter, connected services do the heavy lifting.
Transition to paid services
What is wild is that Mazda used to offer the first option on the fob. Now, it only offers the second kind, where one starts the car via phone through its connected services for a $10 monthly subscription, which comes to $120 a year. Rossmann points out that one individual, Brandon Rorthweiler, developed a workaround in 2023 to enable remote start without Mazda’s subscription fees.
However, according to Ars Technica, Mazda filed a DMCA takedown notice to kill that open-source project. The company claimed it contained code that violated “[Mazda’s] copyright ownership” and used “certain Mazda information, including proprietary API information.”
Subscription services or software restricted features for cars should just be outlawed entirely.
Nobody likes these, if someone is willing to deal with a subscription product then they can do that aftermarket. The car itself should never come with something that will require recurring payments.
Nobody likes these
Shareholders love them
Shareholders love lootboxes too.
And one party autocracy.
Should they though? The average lifespan of a car is 12 years. Even if they got someone to pay the subscription the entire time, that's like 5% of the value of the car, spread over a length of time that makes it almost worthless. They could more easily charge an extra 1500 for the car, which is more money and it's money they get now and isn't picked apart by inflation.
It's not especially good financially in the short or long term and is harmful to the brand image and customer loyalty.
Shareholders can get fucked. They’re making the world a worse place daily.
I think it's fair if Mazda has to operate a server to enable it, but I think Mazda should have to pay car owners to allow them to connect the car to a mobile network, especially for operating their spyware/telemetry.
Yea, that is worse than eWaste, in my opinion. Hope EU does not let this slide for far longer.. It should be illegal to ask for subscriptions for something that is a one time cost for the manufacturer.
Hope EU does not let this slide for far longer..
You're out of luck with the remote start feature. Remote start is not allowed in the EU because it is unnecessary wear and tear on the engine, a waste of fuel and adds to air pollution.
Before my inbox explodes, I understand there are places that get unbelievably cold, and warming the car before the fragile human gets in is preferable, nevertheless, cars warm up faster and more economically when driven.
The car itself should never come with something that will require recurring payments.
Cars already do. Satellite radio has been a thing for decades now. I've never used it. Never felt the desire to use it. I haven't even taken the free trial. I'm less annoyed that it exists, and more annoyed that I'm forever fated to receive unsolicited junk mail for this feature that I have to unceremoniously dump in the recycling bin every couple weeks.
As for the remote start, yeah, it's kinda bullshit that they've removed the more permanent, older version of a feature to replace it with something out of the owners' control. If anything, it should exist in parallel with the key fob button, not replace it entirely. I'm less concerned about the fact that it's a subscription than I am about the prospect of that feature dropping support down the road with no recourse for the owner.
I haven't even taken the free trial.
- Download this app:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.siriusxm.dealer
-
If you don't have the means of faking your location with root (not through developer settings), drive to, like, any nearby car dealership.
-
Open the app, tap the "Enter Radio ID" button, and... do that.
-
Profit!
No sign-up or account required. You will have full service for 3 months.
You can repeat this process indefinitely. It has worked for years. They do not care.
I’m forever fated to receive unsolicited junk mail for this feature that I have to unceremoniously dump in the recycling bin every couple weeks.
Imagining a future in which I have to tell my YouTube integrated car company that I don't want to sign up for their music service every time I start my car.
An API is not copyrightable 🤔
it seems everything is copyrightable if you are rich enough
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_Inc.
When two very rich entities argued about it it was determined you can't copyright API.
I was considering a Mazda for my next car. Now I’m not.
I live in a place that gets fucking cold in the winter. If the normal fob option were always available and you get the option to pay for the convenience using an app, that would be one thing - though $10/month for that is ridiculous. But removing the fob option and locking this basic feature behind a subscription is exactly the sort of game I don’t want my vehicle to play with me.
Go ahead and sell roadside coverage, parts/repairs, batteries, get royalties from Sirius or whatever for extra cash flow. Make a great app that adds new convenient live-service features and is worth paying for, even. But fuck all these new subscription un-gimping games.
The subscriptions is free for the first few years so if you plan on trading it in definitely still worth it. While this does piss me off I still really like my mazda 2020
That's called giving the drugs for free then taking it away so the addiction kicks in. Fuck that noise. Stop justifying it because it's 'free for now'
ISPs do this too..go look for new service, it's a royal pain in the cock trying to find the actual cost before bullshit sales that can be taken away with minutes.
"you wouldn't download a car" was prophetic
“Of course I would” has always been the response though.
"capitalism promotes healthy competition"
Don’t forget innovation:
Hilariously, due to the teardrop shape, cars like this would be more aerodynamic if the shell was reversed.
Car companies do not want to innovate, because aerodynamic cars are "lame", "soy", etc.
People seem to have a low tolerance for what is considered weird when it comes to cars. That's why most cars look the same. (Likely due to marketing and peer pressure)
Bar Atera, Ariel and a couple of other "unconventional" designs, and a handful of other concept cars. (Fuck the cybercrap, it's the opposite of innovation)
TL;DR: cars could be way more aerodynamically efficient, but they aren't, because people are peopleing.
There's an empty spot at the bottom of that list and the author -- who by the way is a monster -- could have easily included Subaru.
One of the biggest lie of all time.
But but, did you see the new "brand x brand x brand" product? The one where all the brands are owned by the same mega-corp and they just decided to smoosh their products together?
Innovation is dead and buried.
And Communism does so much "better":
Why don't you go to Cuba and ask how they've been able to do it for ~100 years. Those people have self-reliance down to a fucking science at this point, and the cars they have been keeping running for 60+ years are a perfect example of it. Imagine if they were actually allowed to participate in global commerce.
Having a car without internet connectivity would be a feature for privacy minded consumers
Usually this stuff is aftermarket. Sounds like a good business plan
Everything is becoming public and opt-out. Privacy is beyond dead.
Bets on which car company is going to be the first to EOL a server and brick a bunch of cars because some key feature is now "unsupported"?
Enel is currently doing exactly that with their electric car chargers (the Juicebox), they've decided to pull out from the North American market and just shut down the servers. Like WTF, at least open-source the thing...
Nissan EOL’ed all their remote services blaming the 3G turn off. But yet my Leaf still connects to their services to report my driving location and driving style to them. They just turned off any features I could use. The 3G network in the UK will be up for quite a long time still and the 2G network will be around for longer, but they decided it’s a good excuse to save some server money on cars that are less than 10 years old.
Something similar already happened when bicycle manufacturer VanMoof went under. I believe there was a workaround if you extracted your bike's crypto keys before the servers went down but otherwise you were practically screwed.
Fisker, due to going bankrupt, arguably is the worst version of this right now
It's going to be Tesla, no question.
Mazda recently surprised customers by requiring them to sign up for a subscription in order to keep certain services. Now, notable right-to-repair advocate Louis Rossmann is calling out the brand.
Services. Services!? What the actual fuck are you talking about!? Remote start isn't a fucking service, it's a feature, that they are trying to control through greed.
Edit: I will give a small concession to the remote remote start, as that does need an OTA service. The service of course shouldn't be any more complicated than a SMS setup, so $15 per year is the absolute most you'll be able to get out of me...
2nd edit: And you damn well better include free modem upgrades. None of this $50+ for a fucking map update shit the other companies are pulling. That shit should have been an OTA update, Christ knows the damn thing tries to find an open Wi-Fi...
It's a service if the only way to remote start the car, from the factory, is via a third party like 5G or LTE.
How are all those 3G car services faring these days? There were cars as recent as M.Y. 2019 that have reduced functionality or no functionality that was originally paid for.
What will it look like when LTE and 5G are inevitably shutdown and replaced?
It's one thing to say I have to buy a new $1000 phone. They almost go obsolete in other ways, or suffer extensive physical damage before the cellular radios get turned off. It's another thing to say that a feature of an $80,000 car is gone forever. Even if it's just a creature-comfort like remote start or remote windows. It's bullshit.
And then what? A $1500 credit off my next car of the same make for my 'inconvenience'? Fuck right the fuck off. How much more does it cost to let a fob toggle it, from the factory floor?
And besides that who the fuck wants to dig out an app to start their car when you could just have a physical button right there on the key? Having voice assistants or routines start it for you is cool and all, but it is well known that those will be obsoleted long before the rest of the car.
Small correction here:
These services have nothing to do with 3g, 5g or wifi. All those are just communication protocols that phones use to connect to the internet, and neither your phone, nor their apps nor their servers will care a dime about those. Of 6g comes out or 5g disappears, nothing changes.
As long as the provider keeps their servers for your services up, the service is there. And that's where the problem lies. It's not the cost. A single 100 dollar / month server could easily cover all remote starts world wide, it really doesn't require that much.
Decisions to take down these services and screw over paying customers are typically made my middle and upper management, to force people to buy their new crap
Yeah, it's still crap. I'm not trying to defend these products requiring paid services, it's shite and I would only use open sourced services, I'm just saying that the technology is a little different than you said
Car manufacturers are being so blatant about this stuff. It goes to show that they know how slow regulation is and they can milk it for all its worth.
I remember a time when these features were just "standard" and car makers ad campaigns all around features just being standard, making the car more enticing than their competitors.
Now I dread the idea of getting a vehicle in the future because of bull shit like this.
But fuck the consumer amirite?
When did customers become consumers?
I'm more concerned with the transformations from customers to product.
"Hey, buy our expensive shit but also give us all your data so we can also sell it to other companies."
Consumer means an individual person customer who's not a company. Otherwise customers can also be other companies.
I don't think unlocking or starting your car from an app was ever standard
There is no need for the internet to use remote start
I just bought a new car and it has internet enabled remote start. The salesman touted the feature. My response: "oh so I can start the car in [one state] while I'm in [another state] so it's ready for me when I get back?" He didn't have a good response for that. Nice car, dumbass feature.
I use mine all the time. I have about a 1/4 mile walk to get to my car, I like to start it in winter to heat up, or summer to cool down before I get to it.
It’s a luxury, but one I enjoy.
Lora and other RF based communication protocols exist and are much better ideas than using the internet. If someone is starting their car they are probably less than a mile away and the benefits of having something that works regardless of cell towers probably outweigh the benefits of being able to use it through bunker doors and across the globe.
Maybe if you don't live where it gets cold or you work in an office within range of your car.
Some people live in these tall things that are called, "not a single family house" and so starting the car from up there you would need some way to communicate to the car, keyfob ranges are limited.
Nice for you to live somewhere mild enough your car doesn't need to pre-heat but some people live in Chicago and other places where it still snows and pre-heating the car is a must 3 months of the year.
I live in a snowy climate and we did just fine before the invention of wireless starters. My car does not have one and we manage just fine.
That is a great QoL, but let's not pretend this is necessary.
My main point is fuck subscription for every fucking thing to try and squeeze more money, even worst by removing features and putting them back behind a paywall.
However, we need to stop saying that things are necessary when most of the time they are convenient.
Because that is how they get us to pay. Every little inconvenience is treated as if it absolutely needs to be adressed.
Then, we can say fuck off to these companies and live with the inconveniences they left on purpose to sell a subscription.
But until, companies will push these hardware subscriptions because it nets them more money.
There is no need for the internet to use remote start
...in Chicago ... pre-heating the car is a must 3 months of the year.
I don't believe you've lived anywhere cold for very long. Cold places existed long before remote start. The car warms up while you finish shoveling and brushing off the car. You're warm from shoveling, and the car is ready to go. If it's just cold and you're late to whatever, you sit your shivering ass down behind the wheel and drive away anyways...
In truly cold weather, starting and idling your car doesn't properly warm it up in any sane amount of time and can even be bad for the engine. What you want is an auxiliary heater like Webasto or Ebersprächer (sp?)
Remote start would be nice with with mild weather or on a hot summer day when you need AC though.
I promise you that there are plenty of people in Chicago without the ability to preheat their car and they're surviving just fine lol
As a Midwesterner, pre heating is a luxury. It’s often a nice and affordable one, but I park outside and just wear my coat in the car.
Why does the car need an internet connection? Rather get a car from 2005-2010 that doesn't connect to the internet, more have a stupid subscription.
Yep, I got a very basic trim 2010-2015 car. I think it's about as new as you can get without really bad enshitification. The upper trims even had some of the gimmicks and techy stuff. I loath to think if the day this car dies. I may only ride my bike from that point on.
If you do get an e bike later know that some brands are very bad with reliability and support so you can end up with a $2000 brick on wheels. Case in point: Rad Power Bikes, their batteries can die just a year after purchase even with good maintenance and their support will simply ignore you if you try to claim a warranty repair/replacement.
Imagine a world where the laws are literally used to opress you!
Now open your eyes.
Narrator:
their eyes were open the whole time
This needs to be banned. In fact, “licenses” for things you buy should be outright banned entirely.
Yeah. Feel this is a slippery slope. First it's supposedly luxury extras like heated seats and remote starts. Next something more critical when folks are habituated to the practice? Enpoopification all around.
So...who is making the open source car?
Someone very rich who doesn't feel the need to get arbitrarily richer.
So no one.
Edison Motors would be my bet.
That guy is doing some seriously cool open source shit on a HUGE scale (electric logging trucks). I'm sure once they perfect the process they will move into the car and truck market.
His media channels and shorts are always great, even if you have no knowledge or interest in the logging industry.
Well, crap! Was seriously looking at the CX50. I’m not paying monthly to use stuff that’s already equipped in the car. Just madness.
Love the CX-50..
I acknowledge the cell connectivity in the car costs Mazda money to keep running. Most cars with that kind of connectivity charge for it. But, I think 10/month is too much.
I acknowledge the cell connectivity in the car costs Mazda money to keep running
They should factor it into the price of the car. Maybe not a lifetime license, but some decent amount of time with a reasonable price to renew it for a few more years.
I believe it comes with a 3 year trial
The connectivity doesn’t work that well anyway. I don’t give a crap about remote start and climate control but my wife uses it when it’s super cold out and only at work. Not worth paying for at all, even from her POV. The car (CX-90 PHEV) is still fantastic to drive.
Reason number 29474929273 why we should ban internet access on cars
Paid subscriptions to use features of the car you bought should be illegal
Wait.... Even if users don't pay for this, their car still comes a WWAN module that is hardwired to their ignition. Yes, I realize it's more likely bolted on to the infotainment system and/or the car's RTOS, but it's still baked in.
Depends on the manufacturer's implementation, but yeah in recent years they've made it really difficult if not impossible to remove
Reupload on Russian github.
We have one?
assholes
Damn, I wish I knew about this workaround before the takedown, I know someone who could benefit from it
I give it another 10 years before car makers just fucking give up on fighting this kind of thing.
It’s gonna be a rough 10 years though
I really hope you're right and wrong at the same time cause I don't want to have to wait 10 years for them to realize this is such a stupid idea.
I don't want anything smart in my car. I want a(n electric) engine that starts with a goddamned physical key that turns in a physical ignition. I want a volume knob that turns with a 1:1 ratio to the volume, ditto for climate control fan speed and temperature. The only thing I want my phone to do in conjunction with my cLilar is display the GPS.
So true... for me personally, I'd love to have a battery EV vehicle, but i just want a regular vehicle with a battery powerplant. I don't want a mobile IOT advertising surveillance DRM non-repairable planned-olsolescence mobile which is how so many new vehicles are designed.
I feel like this is what we all signed up for vs what they delivered.
I'm very excited for Apreras vehicles and hope they are successful. Their whole philosophy is hyper efficient vehicles and they are committed to open repair and bring consumer friendly.
They seem to be the only company making cars or attempting to make cars that makes a point to say that they will make it as easy as possible for you to control, repair and fix your own vehicle.
these car companies oh my god 🤦
nope nope nope.
Welcome to Night City.
There's always buying a third party remote service such as compustar for $700 (with install fees). The 1500 feet range from your key fob is included but you have to pay for the smartphone remote start (which can go on sale for $60 per year). Though these days, cars usually come with these features...
Edit: I meant that the $700 includes parts and labor costs
We need to get a big group together and make an open source car. The company that bought Fiskers leftover vehicles can't use them because Fiskers supposedly can't transfer the servers to them.
Um. Install your own?
...And the third third-party way where you can clap on clap off the engine! It was fairly convenient for people who lived out of the city or a comfy isolation room. In Mexico they will also banned the whistle on 3rd party option where the owner would come up with a special whistle pattern to turn on the engine. Engines in the US would become confused and dangerous on the 4rth of July due to the constant pops and whistle noises. That's why we never saw those features here.