Humanity loophole: you can pay people less if they're from prison.
Humanity loophole: you can pay people less if they're from prison.
So all we need to do is find a way to put people in prison!
Win-win!
Yup and Trump will do this to illegals.. Welcome to the concentration camps
Lol, he absolutely won't.
Important to add, once freed they will be ineligible to take a job as a firefighter in California.
Umm
The website for this program states the exact opposite
https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/facility-locator/conservation-camps/faq-conservation-fire-camp-program/
Yes. A felony conviction does not disqualify employment with CAL FIRE. Many former camp firefighters go on to gain employment with CAL FIRE, the United States Forest Service and interagency hotshot crews.
CAL FIRE, California Conservation Corps (CCC), and CDCR, in partnership with the Anti-Recidivism Coalition (ARC), developed an 18-month enhanced firefighter training and certification program at the Ventura Training Center (VTC), located in Ventura County.
The VTC trains formerly-incarcerated people on parole who have recently been part of a trained firefighting workforce housed in fire camps or institutional firehouses operated by CAL FIRE and CDCR. Members of the CCC are also eligible to participate. VTC cadets receive additional rehabilitation and job training skills to help them be more successful after completion of the program. Cadets who complete the program are qualified to apply for entry-level firefighting jobs with local, state, and federal firefighting agencies.
For more information, visit the Ventura Training Center (VTC) webpage.
To my knowledge, this was only implemented recently and due to state budget cuts to firefighting services, fire departments in California are understaffed. Ex convicts can work as firefighters now, but it's unlikely they'll be able to do so. And as I said, this was only implemented recently so for many years they couldn't. And hiring culture takes time to change.
That's the first sensible advocacy point I've seen sense I started reading these threads. It really doesn't make sense to assign prisoners to jobs they're legally barred from.
From what I've heard this is actually an excellent job for many of them. It's good pay (for prison labor) doing valuable work with a lot of dignity. And it's work for their community that's valuable on the outside. It should always be truly voluntary else it be horrifying, but if they can't do it once they get out it's not job training and it's not reducing recidivism. These prisoners are doing heroic work, let them be heroic once freed.
A large force of inexperienced indentured servants fighting the blaze, yet so much coverage about the horror of a handful of female hires.
A lot of them are experienced though. They’ve been using prison labor for wildfire fighting for years.
I mean...if you've got a trained firefighter, someone who understands fire science...do they need to be the ones holding every hose? Why not just a bunch of muscle holding the hose (or digging the trenches) under the guidance of a pro?
No one is stopping that from happening they just don't want prison slaves used for it. Considering how much of our justice system is just made up bullshit that incentivizes bad people to keep prisons full so there's plenty of slaves to choose from instead of just making this a normal job that would require proper pay and benefits.
I think one of the absolute stupidest things about this when it comes up is that when these same people get let out of prison they can’t even get the job of fire fighter because of their criminal record.
While no legal system is perfect, I much prefer the way some countries prevent the public from hearing the actual names of criminals or someone’s criminal history. Not everyone needs to be branded for life with a scarlet letter. It would reduce recidivism as well.
That's why homelessness is being criminalized.
The explicit goal is to recreate Victorian workhouses for the benefit of the new generation of robber barons.
Hey now, they won't be called Workhouses. They'll be called AI training data centers and Gig Opportunity Recruitment Points.
And if you don't support these amazing engines of economic development and industrial growth, you are clearly just throwing your support behind the concentration camps that the Bad Team wants to build.
Hell, I how do I even know you're not a Russian bot or a Chinese Wumao, trying to sow dissent in our glorious country, anyway?
Ah yes, California's penal legion of
slaves"indentured servants" that we uh... voted to keep around in the last election.Man, CA politics are fucking bizarre. Sometimes the slam dunk no-brainer propositions fail and there never seems to be a really good reason why.
Money, and liberals.
California is liberal. Not left. Every once in a while some leftist proposition comes up that threatens money, and money always wins.
When they say liberals are wolves in sheep's clothing, this is kinda what they're talking about. They care, they really care about their fellow man, as far as their comfortable standard of living allows.
Indentured servants would be college graduates and the loans they bear.
Slavery is alive and well in the United States Of America.
(As a side note it's funny how, with a century of delay, the US pretty much followed the UK in making slavery "illegal" by just making chattel slavery illegal and, not long after, replacing it with indentured servitude. The non "funny" side is that Britain has already dropped indentured servitude but the US is busy actually expanding their variant of it with things like 3-strikes legislation)
The 13th Amendment to the US constitution makes slavery illegal except for prisoners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States
The 13th Amendment to the US constitution makes slavery illegal except for prisoners.
Exactly my point.
The type of prisioners made to work like this in the US tend to be people who are in prison for crimes directly or indirectly related to poverty, not things like murder, making it it a lot like indentured servitude worked in Britain were people who couldn't pay their debts were used as slaves.
Also keep in mind that they are getting charged by the day to be in prison and if ever released will owe a large bill. Usually this results in immediate bankruptcy which further increases chances of future incarceration. By design
Yo, what?? I need to do some research apparently, because I was under the impression that their stay was paid by for taxes. It can't be both, and if it is I may need to change careers.
Yeah I was very surprised when I heard this too. Absolutely despicable. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-majority-of-states-allow-people-to-be-charged-for-time-behind-bars
They're slaves, not incarcerated firefighters.
So go free them. Be the next John Brown. Follow in the footsteps of that Luigi guy.
Hey, they're lucky not to be used as slaves!
The 13th Amendment states: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
Let's call for-profit prisons what they are - Plantations.
I always assume it's a European (or maybe Canadian) that makes posts like this. Last time I asked, I think they we're European - definitely not American.
But I really hope that Americans, at least, know that the right to enslave is enshrined in their constitution.
American here, been saying it's slavery for a while. Not all of us are clueless.
Oh, a bunch of us know, but because of gerrymandering and the ignorance of the larger populace, there's not a goddamn thing we can do about it.
Same with immigrants
Slavery live and alive
They mention how much money they're making but not that everything they have to spend it on comes from the institution imprisoning them and unconscionably price-gouged even by outside standards.
What is this...some kind of Suicide Squad?
The Inflammable Basterds.
Public work is one thing if we had a fair justice system (we don't)
Private work is absolutely indefensible.
My wife was a journalist in SoCal a while back. She did a story on some women prisoners that were used to assist in firefighting.
They worked alongside Cal Fire. It was rough work, they were right there in the shit.
She can't recall if they were paid anything extra but she does remember that they ALL volunteered for it. They actually loved it.
I assume after being locked up long enough, people will agree to anything to go outside for a little while, and vary their routine.
In my job, I occasionally facilitate training for prisoner firefighters. Not only do they all love the job, they are also the best FD we train with. They read the material, study procedures, get it right when being observed. They get to stay at the firehouse instead of the prison itself, so both getting invited to do it and continuing to do it are huge for the inmates. They also love it. It burns my biscuit right up that they'll not be able to be a firefighter when they get out.
In the end we will all love our chains, the whip, and big brother.
Yeah but Lemmy said they are slaves.
Grandmaster: Revolution? How did this happen?
Topaz: Don't know. But the Arena's mainframe for the Obedience Disks have been deactivated and the slaves have armed themselves.
Grandmaster: Ohhh! I don't like that word!
Topaz: Mainframe?
Grandmaster: No. Why would I not like "mainframe?" No, the "S" word!
Topaz: Sorry, the "prisoners with jobs" have armed themselves.
Grandmaster: Okay, that's better.
Thor Ragnarok is the only MCU movie I care to rewatch once in a while, along with Infinity War
I actually purchased Thor: Ragnarok so that I could watch it repeatedly. I love it so much. I'm pretty sure about 90% of that movie was ad-libbed by Taika just giving them a vague outline of what the scene is supposed to be about and then just setting the actors loose to improv to their heart's content.
Edit: Also, watching Galadriel (Cate Blanchett) absolutely kill it as the most exasperated evil queen is one of my favorite things in a movie ever.
Definitely using this during my dnd session. The prison warden wardening prisoners with a job solely for their own benefit.
Yo, its the private fire fighters the guy was asking on Twitter about.
"I will pay any amount"
1 dollar per hour and your soul is pretty cheap.
It could be worse: they could be insured by UHC :)
How 'well' a society is, is a function of whether going to prison is a choice or not (of the prisoner)?
I already thought this was bad when they were
askedmade to work fast food jobs.AskingMaking them to risk bodily harm is an entirely different idea. I think I want my first responders to feel fairly compensated when I call for help.Isn't there an amendment about this? We had that whole interval railway war over capitalism under the guise of fighting for that amendment?
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction"
The 13th amendment
Any billionaire is free to step in and properly compensate these heroes, but they won’t
I don't think we have chain gang type prison programs in Canada. It's so archaic. Making license plates to have an occupation might be reasonable, but this chain gang shit is inhumane.
Wasn't this the thing as well where once they are released they cannot legally work as firefighters
No, I've spoken with CalFire guys about it. Apparently a bunch of departments actually will take note of prison crews they like working with and will hire out of that pool when their prison term is up. I think people who are ineligible to be firefighters due to their record are generally not permitted to be out on prison crews.
Also, many of them are ineligible to become actual firefighters after their release from prison due to their criminal record. I would be slightly more okay with this system if it translated into a guaranteed position as a firefighter following release if they agree to go to an area in need like in smaller communities that have trouble recruiting firefighters.
If someone lands on your property, you don't get paid if you are in prison. Though if the board is loaded up with hotels on orange and the other players aren't near your properties, you can stay in for a bit rolling doubles to avoid going broke.
Fire Country
Yes, that is a TV show.
I wonder if the Alethi pay their slaves better. What's the normal hourly rate for a firefighter?
I can confirm, Alethi slaves are better paid.
So you and people who get free room and board should get equal pay, or they're slaves, but you're not. Got it.
In most states it's not free. You have to pay room and board after you get out. Or they send you back, even if you served your full assigned time. The fees are legislated as part of your sentence and you're not clear of the system until you've paid it for imprisoning you.
Really living up to that name lovablesidekick
Thanks, I'm actually very cuddly!
To play devil's advocate, and out of blind ignorancr, what's the alternative? Do nothing? Conscript the public?
Fund the bloody fire brigade
No no no no, that's too sensible
Did you see how much they had to increase the police budget? Sadly there simply is no way we can afford to pay firefighters.
Land value taxes to fund well-paid firefighters. Regulations on water usage, land use, and construction. Repeal Prop 13.
The country has plenty of able bodied and willing firefighters, just not enough willing to do it for poverty wages with a seasonal employment schedule. I used to work with a bunch of these crazy bastards in the off season when I was a line cook.
Have a corps of properly trained reservists, with laws requiring private companies and public institutions to make these firefighters available in case of critical emergency
Take all the subsidy tax dollars that go to big oil and spend them on firefighter salary.
No, pay the prisoners for fucks sake. Also, a lot of people would want that money but its extremely hard to get a job if youre, for example, homeless.
If I was one of them, you bet I'd be doing everything in my power to get as many people to team up to run into the fire to avoid the indignity of modern slavery like that. Would rather burn to death.
Na, I would be trying to the least amount of work possible.
Small easily contained/extinguished fire starts on a porch.
"I'm sorry ma'am we can't stop it. This is going to be a total loss."
Under most circumstances this seems like one of the less dystopian options*... because at least on the surface, this is a genuine everybody-problem and not something that drives profit.
Particularly if this actually gives them a career post-release, which seems to be the case in California for at least 4 years now. The alternative is dystopic again.
If this response is more pressured just because of where/who it effects, I could see that being an issue too. The context already dystopic though... like aside from the long-term heat and drought that will continue to be ignored, there was also the profit-over-safety of the PG&E hooks (from another article: PG&E knew old power line parts had ‘severe wear’ months before deadly Camp Fire).
*= Which is probably saying a lot, given that it involves an inferno. And yeah that pay is not great, but what they're being charged daily is likely even worse.
Particularly if this actually gives them a career post-release, which seems to be the case in California
Federal Judge: Californians Who Fought Fires In Prison Can’t Become Career Firefighters
A California licensing law that bans many ex-offenders from working as full-time firefighters, even if they were trained to fight fires while imprisoned, was upheld last week by a federal judge.
Nearly all local fire departments require certification as an emergency medical technician (EMT). Yet under California law, EMT certification is off-limits to anyone who has ever been convicted of two or more felonies, has been released from prison for any felony in the past decade, or has been convicted of any two or more drug misdemeanors in the past five years.
Adding to the absurdity, people with multiple felonies can still serve as volunteer or seasonal firefighters, though the latter is only part-time and provides far less job security and fewer benefits than working year-round at a municipal fire department.
...
To counter the labor shortage, Gov. Gavin Newsom is looking to replace the dwindling penal fire camps with professional firefighters. Law enforcement has sharply criticized the proposal, with one sheriff aghast at losing a supply of “nearly free labor:” “The truth is if [the state] kept more people in prison and weren’t so concerned about releasing all of their inmates...they would have plenty of people for fire crews.”
The system totally totally isn't designed to keep the poor down.
I was going off of this:
RAMEY: We focus on the expungement process. So Gavin Newsom passed a law - I think about four years ago now - and what it pretty much does is help people that come out of, like, California Conservation Camps - being able to get their record expunged, which is amazing because it provides an opportunity where folks can, you know, apply to not only just fire careers, but, like, you know, they can have a brand-new life.
But you're right, I guess expungement is not a guarantee but it is something.
And I did say
The alternative is dystopic again
was upheld last week
The article is from Feb 2021, though. Maybe something changed?
No
