Considering last night's results, I don't expect NATO to be credible 4 years from now

I think that’s unlikely.

But I also thought Trump winning was unlikely,

So what do I know?

Good job to all of the fucks who stayed home because of Gaza, thinking that not voting and letting the GOP rise to power would actually help the situation.

Yeah, because Netanyahu's extreme right-wing policy was a problem with the US's left-wing party, right?

Yeah, that'll teach the do-nothing-dems!!1
Millions of people stayed home. I really doubt Gaza was the reason for all of them.
I doubt Gaza was the deciding factor for 20 million people, but I could be wrong. Especially since anyone that aware of the whole would see trump would worsen the situation not improve it. I'm curious why they did stay home.

I also guess Americans don't want a woman president and they do want a hard crackdown on migrants. Especially Latinos, who apparently overwhelmingly came out for trump.
- By far, the overwhelming Biden derangement syndrome factor was "transgenders exist and are in my news feed". That healthcare is available to prisoners and immigrants, means that they are all receiving gender reassignment surgeries. This is democrats fault.
- It wasn't deciding factor at all. People get far too internet poisoned and fail to realize how the median voter is actually motivated in this country. Foreign policy is nearly irrelevant to most voters.
  
  If there is any validity to the idea that Harris' position on gaza tanked the campaign it's in the motivated active base lost interest in giving their time, sweat, and energy to putting boots on the ground for someone that has made every promise to continue bombing children.
Good job the democrats alienating their base by trending right. I get you but this was completely avoidable if the democrats were competent and not a big circlejerk for themselves. Bernie could have beat that spastic in 2016.

Gaza is a serious issue, the US is supporting a genocide. If you cant come out against that then why bother, there isnt much more important to a lot of people. I know Trump will be worse for the region, they do too but if you cant take a principled position that aligns with people you cant complain they didnt vote for you.
- You can be rightfully mad at the party that's failing to represent you correctly (I certainly am) and still make the pragmatic choice of not getting the guy who will make those issues worse elected.
  
  We need to come together nationally and locally to attempt to affect change within the DNC more often than every 4 years, because it seems like every time we're all reminded how incompetent they are, it's too late for us to do anything about it for that election cycle.
- Good job the democrats alienating their base by trending right
  
  Ok, but
  
  Bernie could have beat that spastic in 2016.
  
  Bernie lost in the primaries, it’s our own fault (I voted for him…)
- The mythical left dem base doesn't out vote average centerist group. If you are looking for a perfect group you'll never find it
Tbh, there’s a very dark part of me that makes me just want sit back, watch Gaza and the West Bank get fully reduced to rubble, and all the Palestinians getting put into woodchippers, and just smirk while saying “wow, good thing we dodged a Harris administration. Who knows what that would have meant for Palestine.”
- We know libs have been saying that for nearly a year.
So you want me to reward holocaust Harris and genocide joe for not doing ANYTHING to stop it? No, I chose to teach them a lesson. Don't blame us. Blame the dems for not doing enough and putting a shit candidate.
- What lesson exactly? That if the ideal candidate isn't run, a subset of liberals will pick the worse of two options?
  
  All that does is teach the conservatives that if they can convince you that the democrat candidate fails you enough on a single issue, they effectively have your vote. Regardless of the conservative candidate's stance on that issue.
  
  You have made the choice to make the problem you care about profoundly worse because there wasn't a way to make it completely better. Have fun watching that play out as you intended I guess.
- Gloating as the Palestinians receive news that help isn't coming is something that someone who cares more about their own image than a genocide would do.
My argument is what did the democrats have to lose for supporting Gaza/Palestinians? It's obvious not running a fully left facing candidate and campaign was a mistake.

We are mad at the wrong people. The reality of the situation is that the democrats can't win without the far left of the party. So why won't we extend an olive branch? If we get a next time, what are we going to do differently?! This is the reality. Either we wake up to that or keep losing. Pick one.
- Fuck the people who didnt vote based on gaza. They are even dumber than Maga hats. They help the candidate that is even worse for gaza win . No one should offer these people any branches. Fuck them. Treat them like the idiots they are just like we do with MAGA.

4 years? Try 6 months from now.

NATO colonies deserve their freedom. They need a backbone to stop being US slaves, and Trump demeaning demand terms, is an opportunity for that backbone. It is categorically absurd that Russia threatens to invade current NATO members, and the idiocy of continuing a war on Russia needs to be more obvious to the colonies.

The fuck are you smoking bro

I mean if Europe wants to increase their military funding and move items in house I think that would be a wonderful idea. Because America is not a reliable partner in this at all in the past two decades.

The perfect excuse for the military industrial complex to move manufacturing overseas.
- So I'm going to say that the military industrial complex is already there, it would simply be a rapid expansion.
Multiple EU countries want to, but they also want to give stuff to Ukraine and it's difficult to do both.
If Europe gets into a war of course the US will help. But the same can't really be said if the US gets into a war. The rest of NATO needs to be able to hold the fort if the US were to get suddenly ....distracted in the Pacific
- If Europe gets into a war, the US will side with Russia. Trump has been a Russian asset since the 80s, and it's clear that he gave Putin classified documents relating to American spies and informants during his last presidency when they suddenly started dying a few days after he met with Putin. And even more classified documents relating to American espionage against Russia than the ones he requested before that meeting were found in Mar a la Go.
- Are you fucking stupid? Which is the only country to ever invoke article 5? How many other countries listened to the call for this injust war?
- If Europe gets into a war of course the US will help.
  
  How sure are you of that? Sure, if Russia marches towards the Atlantic Ocean, but if Russia decides to create a security buffer zone in Finland? Or the Baltic countries?
  
  NATO has only survived for as long because of the commitment of the US. Come January NATO is dead as well as a sovereign Ukraine.

The biggest thing will be all those nato countries who can't do anything with their US weapons if the US says so.

That is only if they want to continue to buy new weapons, not if they intend to male weapons in Europe
- No. I mean the weapons they have now. F35 for example. If a war happens in Europe, will those planes be useful without US support and authorizations? US can do a lot of harm to Europe with that.

Thank fuck we didn’t give up our nukes in the UK.

What does that accomplish?
- Not a lot. The British weapons are reliant on US maintenance. Won't be credible for long if the US doesn't support them.
- Putin won't invade you
- Autonomy.
- Defense

It will just be renamed to No America Treaty Organization

Technically not... They'd still have Canada.
- Expecting the US to not maintain its monopoly on the demonym "American" is the same thing as expecting dogs not to bark at the mailman. Other western hemisphere countries shouldn't have dragged ass becoming independent.
- Don’t you dare call us American! Next thing you know we’ll stop apologizing for everything and actually build a military with jets instead of snowmobiles!
- Rename it NUTO. No US Treaty Org.

It seems like a very real possibility. A new, EU followup seems like a natural next step to protect the borders and peace.

PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA PAX EUROPA
Next stage of russian ops will focus more heavily on splitting Europe now that UK and US have been severed off
- It's death by a thousand cuts and nobody seems to care. Smh
- Straight out of Alexander Dugins book...
Would be nice. Hungary tho 😤
- Hungary can join the Russian union state alongside Belarus.

As an european: Good riddance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

When the US speaks about protection, they mean vassality. It means protection like the mafia does.

Can NATO still mean something if the US leaves? I think so, but there is much soul searching to be done.

Sorta, but not really tbh. The US was always intrinsically backstopping the security side of things. Without us in it - and I mean this very seriously - it’s not really a credible threat to Russia or anyone else anymore.
- NATO article 5 will still have use in self defence, but obviously it will be way less impressive

It isn't credible now. It likely won't exist at all in 4 years. Unless it cedes even more decision making authority to the US and becomes even more of a puppet.

Doesn't all authority already lie with the USA? If we're going to be real, I mean. I'm sure France thinks otherwise but let's be real: NATO was always the "Uncle Sam will protect Europe from Russia"-treaty.
The main point I was making is that Trump is almost certainly going to pull the US out of NATO altogether.
- If not attempt to destroy it outright in an attempt to extort it.

Let’s just kick America out if need be.

No need, Republicans will leave it at the behest of their Russian handlers.