Locking this post, the amount of reports and uncivil pissing matches is getting to be more than we can address in a timely fashion.
Let's take all that "You can't POSSIBLY vote for GENOCIDE-adjacent person even if the alternative is LITERALLY A HUNDRED TIMES WORSE INCLUDING LOTS MORE GENOCIDE" energy
And apply it to "You can't POSSIBLY sit around typing on the internet while the world is falling apart, let's get involved in direct activism to make the US a better place instead of hoping that voting is enough which it definitely isn't"
While also, yes, voting for "not the end of the world"
But if they cosplay as a leftist IRL then their social groups, redcaps all, might see them and ostracize them.
Hey, Trump was already president for four years, and didn't do this despite the exact same scaremongering back then. His actions in office were practically identical to Biden's now.
We need to protect our democracy, as the ability to freely choose between policies is fundamental to the perpetuation of a liberal society.
On that note, you have exactly one viable choice to make and it will - at absolute best - kick the can down the road for two years. At that point, you will once again be told we need to protect democracy.
Maybe if you did some collective action between events instead of waiting two years for the polls to open and then complaining that FPTP is still giving you only two choices.
Love this comment! As i commented elsewhere, get outside and make ur local politicians uncomfortable until they pass Rqnked Choice. Plenty of state level measures going around right now, no waiting necessary!
Maybe if you did some collective action
That would be crazy if I was doing that regularly.
I'll say, five minutes at the Houston Food Bank feels infinitely more productive than an hour waiting for access to the one functional voting machine in my district
What is the problem with Biden? As a non-American, I only notice how regularly Republicans block everything from the Democrats no matter how big the damage is and somehow the population embarrasses the Democrats for it or specifically biden... i.e. the same action against biden as from republicans or trump and that from the beginning. Why was Biden elected in the first place if both Republicans and Democrats use this to destroy democracy?
On the subject of genocide... Republicans and Democrats would apparently also be happier if the genocide took place against Israel, then increasingly against Ukraine and against the West. So that democracy in the West is destroyed further and further, especially by the fragmentation of their own shitty population.
We have to protect our democracy where there is no choice but to vote for Biden!
Then afterwords we pass electoral reform right?
so people can vote for the candidate that best represents them, with no spoiler effect because their vote is still counted against the republicans. Democrats believe in democracy right?
Then afterwords we pass electoral reform right?
You wanna guess which party has been amiable towards electoral reform and which has been hostile?
I don't trust Dems to believe in meaningful voting choice. I only reluctantly vote for them because they haven't fully embraced fascism.
People need to organize in large numbers for electoral reform to make it happen. It is not going to happen if we don't agitate for it.
Electoral reform has to happen at the state level, and it's most likely to happen in extreme Democrat strongholds. So yes, if enough people vote Democrat, eventually electoral reform.
Trust me, Republicans are not interested in electoral reform, except maybe to outlaw elections.
Thinking the Democrats (or Republicans) are interested in passing any meaningful electoral reform is pure delusion.
I mean almost every implementation of it thus far has been by dems so yes actually that is well within the realm of possibility.
Can't electoral reform be passed on a state level in the US? I know shit about the US but I heard someone mention that.
We can do this on the state level! Many states currently have measures establishing ranked choice voting that all of us would do well to pressure our state officials to pass. Id love to see protesters camping out in front of state congresspeoples houses with signs about their local measure. No need to wait until after the election!
But yes thatd be excellent after November, as well
I get the feeling most of the critics to this post don't actually live in the US. When it's you, your family and your friends in danger of being shipped off to the death camps, no amount of philosophical masturbation matters in comparison.
I'm trans and live in the US, I just also have an actual spine.
The way people talk about Palestinians today is the way they'll talk about trans people tomorrow. Based on the logic of lesser-evilism, if the next election comes down to a democrat who wants to genocide trans people, and a republican who wants to genocide trans people and some other group(s), then you'll deploy the exact same arguments about supporting "lesser genocide." No one is safe once we accept this logic, at that point it's all about trying to shift to target onto another group's back to protect yourself.
Solidarity isn't just about doing the right thing, it's a practical survival strategy. It's about different groups banding together and recognizing that an attack on one is an attack on all, and that no amount of genocide towards any group is acceptable.
I live in the US, born and raised. I am queer and a racial minority as well as very politically active. I and everyone I know will be refusing to vote for Biden. He has made nothing meaningfully better since Trump and in fact has made things worse. Regardless of that, I can't in good conscience vote for someone aiding a genocide. I think everyone who is voting for Biden in the US must be very privileged and unaware or otherwise removed from the effects of the severe decline in living standards under his administration. But even if that weren't true... he's aiding a literal mass-child-murder genocide, and by voting for him, I'd feel like I was giving my approval for such a heinous, despicable thing. I wish the democrats had put forward a decent human being that I could vote for, but they didn't, and I can't. The US is sliding towards fascism and if you think that won't keep happening just because the blue team puts their geriatric genocidal guy at the top, I think you're painfully naive.
The US has done been fascist, its about voting for the fascist that will do the least harm.
Absolutely wild that you're getting downvoted for this. Head in the sand behavior.
Seriously, why can't they get a better candidate? 😕
Because in 2020 not enough Democrats voted for the better candidate.
Such a sorry state of state affairs.
because first past the post voting socks
Because who you can vote for is controlled by wealthy people and corporations that lobby the dominant parties, because the only way to amass that much support to run a campaign is through the Democrats or Republicans. You can't vote for who you want, you must always pick the lesser of two evils.
America has never really had proper democracy at the federal level if you can't vote third party, realistically.
Ah, so it's just corrupt rich people screwing the world over like always...
Did you guys prepare a candidate capable of primarying Biden?
i like this one, this one is good.
Why isn't there other options ? 2 is not enough !
Because our current voting system is "first past the post". And that it eventually leads to an inevitable 2 party system.
This video is one of my favorites that explain this problem. https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=ri9DbpvXxjyRonN3
I'll vote if you do more than just vote.
Get hooked up with Election Science to switch your elections to approval. Pick-all-you-like voting really helps make people feel like they actually got to voice their opinion at the ballot box.
I have friends who are into this kind of electoral work. It would be an improvement.
You have no right to hold this over people's heads, and even implying a tit for tat arrangement is suggesting that anyone who doesn't "do more than just vote" isn't doing their part. Some of us have demanding jobs, kids, family that requires care, or other demands that do not allow time for political activity beyond voting which has already been made extremely difficult in some areas.
In short: get fucked. Go vote. Don't try to create some kind of one-upsmanship game that predicates your civic responsibility on someone else's volunteered time.
This is extremely hostile. I was being cheeky. I want people to get more involved as much as other people want me to vote, that's the point I'm trying to make. I'll vote, and I don't need you to try and scare me or shame me about it. Maybe ask yourself why this makes you so upset that you have to swear at a stranger over it. Seems like there's something else going on that deserves your attention more than my dumb comment
You have no right to hold this over people’s heads, and even implying that someone who does “more than just vote” isn’t doing their part. Some of us have demanding jobs, kids, family that requires care, or other demands that do not allow time for voting instead of attending the occasional local better-timed rally which has already been made extremely difficult in some areas.
In short: get fucked. Go do activism. Don’t try to create some kind of one-upsmanship game that predicates your civic responsibility on someone else’s volunteered time.
Nice of you to assume people who vote don't do anything else to improve things.
How will you look back on whatever you're doing right now if you, and people like you, don't vote and lead to Trump winning? All that work for nothing because you refused to do the one thing that could help everything else you're trying to do.
I didn't say that, where did I say anything like that? Why are you trying to villainize me? I want other people to get involve as badly as you want me to vote, is the point I'm trying to make. Save your shame and fear. Try talking to me like a person and not, I don't know, whatever demon you're trying to make me out to be
Yes, actually, everyone urging for pragmatism at the polls should be willing to take steps other than just voting.
What do you suggest? I'm for this. What are good steps? I want to get from where we are to a voting system that allows me to choose a different candidate without wasting my ballot.
Well, for example, a friend of mine is a big proponent of star voting. He joined DSA, which is an org I'm a member of and how we met, promoted it within the chapter and started holding meetings that actually attract a lot of people inside and outside the group. He networks with other activists around the country who have been successful in implementing voting reforms in their state and municipalities, and Now he is trying to build his own local campaign around Star voting. Its slow, steady political work and it is necessary. Build campaigns and get in front of people, do politics. Not everyone is gonna side with you but if it is a good idea, enough people will.
And in the temporary absence or inability to do that, educating yourself and others is vitally important work. But groups like DSA, WFP, and various local progressive campaigns have a low barrier to entry and participation. People learn so much so quickly when we get involved. Its not always easy, and for example, I don't really even enjoy politics all that much, not like some people who seem to love to debate and get a charge out of doing political work. But I've met amazing people and learned so much and orgs are desperate for volunteers. My primary focus is movement building and education, and also I seem to have a knack for building bridges. So if that electoral voting work is what interests you, just go for it, reach out to people and most importantly be patient!
< someone who thinks going to grammable rallies and left signaling online counts as "more than voting"
Going to rallies is good, but I'm actually extremely skeptical of online "activism". I actually don't have a benchmark for what " counts as more," but I want people to have actual experience doing political work, which looks different for everyone. I find the most value in the discussions that come from regular working people, educating themselves and each other.
Why do you want me to be a hypocrite? Do you actually believe that nothing exists beyond the bare minimum? But I remember feeling this deep dark cynicism about politics at certain times in my life too. So hopefully you are on a road that leads you away from cynical otherizing and you discover the communities of volunteers that hopefully exist very close to you, so you are able to have some of these experiences.
At which point you might look back on these moments of cynicism with disappointment, as I look back on my mine. Its okay though, the system is supposed to instill these feelings of frustration and alienation into people, so it isn't really your fault. But in order to build a movement we need people doing work they are passionate about and I hope you find work like that and join soon.
Me exactly
Gotta do an electoral reform? Yup.
(guy beating you with a hammer) this will hurt worse if the other guy gets the hammer next
Every time one of these posts come up there's a bunch of people who are always like but the republicans are way worse!
And it just seems like it's a bunch of white people who have never actually been discriminated against and now they're worried because these policies will finally affect them.
Whereas when black and brown people have been talking about how both parties have fucked us over for decades upon decades, we are told to shut up.
When white nationalists walk down streets with torches and actually kill people, there's like 3 arrests. When an angry mob tries to overthrow the government, and livestream themselves doing it, and are all caught on camera, we have the slowest reaction of all time, and their jail terms for literal insurrection are just a couple years. When BLM did even more peaceful protests, they're arrested and smeared.
When students protest genocide, they're arrested and smeared. But when you send in police or a bunch of pro Israel goons attacks students peacefully sitting on some grass, silence. And that's the democrats. Sorry, but one side being marginally less genocidal than the other, but still allowing all these corporations who pollute the world and kill people indiscriminately, is not that much better a choice.
Biden has seemingly lost the vote of the youth and of black and brown people in America. Those are THE two groups that put him in the presidency. White people actually voted pretty much for trump. 60% or so, white women even more so.
So people scared about students and brown and black people not voting for biden might want to just stop for a second and wonder why they keep asking us to save them instead of going and actually talking to racist grandpa and grandma in the back and getting them to vote for their own interests.
I've voted in every election that I've been able to - local, state, and national. It has done fuck all for me while a couple already rich people got ten times richer. Why should I keep voting for that?
Maybe it's time the democrats realized that they could put plank from ed edd and eddy up there and it would get more votes than biden. It's not our fault they fucked Bernie in 2016. Biden promised to be a one term president when he ran originally. So he can't be trusted. He doesn't care that 34000 brown men, women, and children are being killed by him. So why on earth would I care if he loses? It's absurd. If white people wouldn't vote for a fascist cheetoh you wouldn't have this issue at all.
If people had a moral spine they'd realize that genocide is evil no matter where it is.
Republicans are objectively worse by every single metric. That doesn't make democrats perfect saints.
And to your last sentence, please explain how Trump will actually improve the situation in Gaza.
I didn't read any of the rest of it because those two bits were stupid enough to tell me all I needed to know
I wonder if there will be any self awareness when trump wins because they tried to push a candidate even they dont like. Really inspiring them swing states.
Why would there be? The first time Trump won it was when an unlikable Democrat ran. Anyone trying to teach the DNC to run better candidates by voting for Trump is just shooting themselves in the face.
Yeah, how exactly independent are supposed to do something that reflects public interests for once if you don't even consider voting independent?
Maybe be mad at the dems for doing literally nothing to get votes rather than people that don't want to vote for genocide?
You don't get the choice of no genocide. You get the choice between some genocide far away, or lots of genocide far away and some more at home.
I suppose that not voting is a choice, but that choice isn't "I don't want genocide", that choice is "I don't care how much genocide we have".
You don’t get the choice of no genocide
If genocide is an inevitability, that means that the US is a fascist state which must be overthrown by any means necessary, and any farcical "elections" between two people who support genocide are a joke that should not be legitimized through participation!
The fact that you're defending genocide as an inevitability is, in fact, a perfect demonstration of the harm caused by this very participation! The reason that you've taken such an abhorrent position is because you've centered the US political system as an immovable object. But the real immovable object should be... STOPPING GENOCIDE!If your political project cannot draw a hard line against endorsing genocide, then it is worthless!
One of two people are going to win. You can have Joe Biden, or you can gamble that Donald "Israel should finish the job" Trump, who kicked off 2017 with an unconstitutional "Muslim ban," will do a complete 180 this time.
Protip: it seems to be the lefties who dislike genocide and Trumpanzees have oppositional defiant disorder, so it certainly will not be getting better under Donald.
It's fucking weird to pretend you dislike genocide while agitating for an openly racist authoritarian insurrectionist to take office. Like were you asleep for the 20th Century portion of history class or have the middle schools not gotten to that part yet?
If you need anything more than "the other candidate is a fascist running openly on a platform of doing fascism" to do everything you can to vote and get others out to the polls too, you may turn your ally badge in and sit at the table with all the other fascists.
Formal proposal that all the grammable marches and rallies post security that check for proof of having voted to get let in, sounds like a club bouncer, but these people are coming hard with "bachelorette party at a gay club" energy anyways.
If you think supporting genocide is not a fascist position, then I don't know what to tell you.
Ah yes, policies that would have been considered downright progressive 70 years ago are apparently a dictatorship today.
Say what you will about American policies in the 50s, yes they were racist, yes they were sexist, and many other things. But I don't believe it is really arguable that the US was a dictatorship at that time. Less democratic than it is currently, sure. Not a dictatorship.
luckily, your vote only really matters if you live in a swing state
🥲
Your vote matters regardless of where you live in the US. City, County, and State elections are extremely important.
Down ballot is very important no matter where you live. If you're conscious enough to recognize your vote for Biden won't tip the scales you should be conscious enough to know your vote could be very important for other candidates on the ballot.
Disregarding the down ballot issues, this is an incredibly myopic viewpoint.
States change affiliation. It takes time. And a red state that is less red than the previous election? That gets noticed. Policies can shift, slowly. More local offices will be challenged.
Comment more drivel 🤣😂😭
- Your vote for president likely doesn't matter unless you live in one of a few states
- The Dems love that they can just scare you into voting against Trump rather than doing things that would excite you to vote Blue
- They love you caring more about Trump than Gaza or Cop City or Haiti
- There's WAY more to vote for than President
rather than doing things that would excite you to vote Blue
You mean like doubling the overtime exemption salary, reinstituting net neutrality, forcing airlines to refund cancelled flights and banning non-compete agreements in nearly all cases? Because those all happened like, last week. Not to mention larger policies like student loan forgiveness, abortion, etc. that are supported nearly exclusively by Democrats.
Don't forget the rejoining the Paris climate Agreement, proposal to lower overdraft fees, and the marijuana rescheduling efforts. But yeah literally nothing good from this administration /s
Good for you for being informed enough to know about all those things. They're all good things. But they don't move my needle. They're much too small. Probably nothing could compare to a genocide but these don't come anywhere near close.
Straight-up student loan forgiveness could've been huge. We bailout big companies all the time but Biden fumbled student loan forgiveness by going small. National abortion access would be great but there's no way they'll get that passed.
Mostly agree, but you be saying #2 like scare tactics isn’t the standard practice for mostly all politicians in every party these days (not even just in the USA, but all around the globe). Trying to make that a trait of a specific party feels kinda disingenuous to me.
You're right it's not specific to them. I'm talking about Dems because the thread is about liberals feeling obligated to vote Dem to stop Trump.
I might argue that using fear to gain/maintain power is a thing that all powerful people/institutions do. It might be a feature of all hierarchical power structures. Anyway, it's gross every time
Dems got stuck on fear-based politics in 2015 and never recovered.
This is of course secondary to their primary strategy of fear-based fundraising. They’re a fundraising organization first and foremost. They forgot how to be actual political representatives long before 2015.
If you need anything more than "the other candidate is a fascist running openly on a platform of doing fascism" to do everything you can to vote and get others out to the polls too, you may turn your ally badge in and sit at the table with all the other fascists.
Formal proposal that all the grammable marches and rallies post security that check for proof of having voted to get let in, sounds like a club bouncer, but these people are coming hard with "bachelorette party at a gay club" energy anyways.
You assume that voting will make a difference but it won't. Not only because most of us don't live in swing states but also, because voting doesn't change American politics. Biden showed us that. Hell, Obama showed us, America is still gonna be it's ugly self no matter who's in the oval office.
I refuse to keep pretending that a blue guy in charge is meaningfully better. They just talk nicer and give the people here a couple more things.
I want everyone to demand what they actually want, not settle for the guys who seem better than those other douchebags.
Your proposal is terrible lol
- Your vote for president likely doesn't matter unless you live in one of a few states
Unless the NPVIC gets through before November
I am not ever voting for Joe Biden again.
'again' acting like an ignorant jackass like yourself had ever voted for him in the first place. If you're even an American and eligible to vote.
stfu and fuck right off.
Vote how ya like, but consider using the extra free time to campaign for electoral reform in your state. How we vote is controlled at the state level, so we don't need to wait for federal reform to do something about First Past The Post voting.
That way there is a little bit bigger chance a 3rd party more to your liking would be created. Nothing is for certain, but this is our one life so we gotta take the shot.
