...and it got me thinking about something that I've wanted for a long time. Why is it that keyboards have not evolved to have dedicated copy/paste keys left of the main board? I'd love to see an additional column of keys left of Esc->Ctrl configurable as macros at least. I do a lot of copy/paste for work. The current shortcuts arent terrible or anything but they're not exactly comfortable. I'd rather move my whole hand to the left for a macro key than contort to hit the current shortcut.
Honestly I LOVE being able to have Ctrl and Cmd be different modifiers.
Ctrl-C is break, Cmd-C is copy. And so on. All the Unixy stuff respects Ctrl and ignores Cmd and vice versa for the Mac stuff. Honestly it’s the best keyboard setup I have experienced and the only one which never manages to irritate me.
(Personally I am fine without a dedicated copy/paste key; the only ones I like having dedicated keys for are things like volume up/down for which I’m not aware of a universally understood key combination for)
Personally since I use touch typing being able to hit ctrl-c,v without looking works best for me. Anything else would require me to shift my hands too far away from the “home row” and slow me down.
With 35 years of computer experience I can say that anything except Ctrl+Insert/Shift+Insert is worse.
By that I mean, we all need to adjust our brain to be fluent on which ever ecosystem we are currently logged on to, and become native users of key combos on all we use. I have used MacOS daily since 2004, and linux, Windows and DOS all longer than that. It takes practice, a lot of practice, but in the end I don’t even realize I sometimes use Ctrl+c, other times Cmd+c, and yet again Ctrl+Shift+c. It all comes naturally, by some miracle my brain knows which one to use. Granted, the DOS one I use so rarely these days I need a double take on the Ctrl+Insert. Last time was still around 6 hours ago today.
I guess what I’m saying is keep doing it, you’ll get there.
I 100% agree with what you are saying. Not to be contrary, but just because it amuses me, I use page up/down and home/end all the time. You're still right.
No and yes. If the copy and paste buttons would be at the position of page-up/down, I think many people would still use Ctrl+C because it is quickerto reach.
If the keys would be at easily reachable positions, then sure.
Home and End are useful and I can still see a use case for PageUp/PageDown. But I'm pretty sure I've never pressed the Scroll Lock or Pause/Break button even once. I don't think Pause/Break actually does anything anymore and I don't know what scroll lock does but I've never needed it.
But... That's on the right side of the keyboard. I guarantee it's faster to press Ctrl-C/V since my left hand is already there than it would be to move it or my mouse hand to Home/End.
But I realize there are left-handed people and other use-cases...
I disagree. [Modifier] + C & [mod] + V works just as good as a dedicated button and you are using the space more efficiently by having multiple uses for one key.
Keyboard already has a lot of buttons. We should be considering which to remove, not any additions
I don't think we need to remove anything. I mean if you really want a smaller keyboard that badly you could get one of the ones that removes the number pad.
But as someone who was a cashier long ago before GS1 codes on produce, we got fast at 10-key typing by touch. The thought of doing a spreadsheet or extended number-work without the number pad is unthinkable to me...
Yes! 100% this. The closest thing I've seen is Quick Accent in Power Toys for Windows. But something like what you've described is what I've always wanted.
I also thought about mapping this to Auto Hotkey, but didn't bother after finding Quick Accent.
Other than already working like that for accents in spanish keyboards, what is with the euro combination??? C + =?? What kind of unhinged British person are you, not to think it would be like the pound, E + - ??
To be fair, you can use E= to get a euro symbol as well, I just found that C= demonstrated the whole drawing characters from other characters very well.
As for the L- for £ that came from a different page titled "Compose Key Sequences" at a personal website, but when I look at the main page of the site it seems like mostly refer to HTML, with little explanation.
The Swedish keyboard works the same as the Spannish kayboard with regards to accent modifiers.
Fun fact, at one of my earlier jobs we aquired several international offices and didn't have any corporate laptops with a Spannish keyboard, so I was asked to modify a laptop and make a spannish keyboard using Dymotape.
It worked well enough, but we never ended up using the concept.
At the same job, I got to type on the following keyboard layouts:
Swedish/Finnish
Danish
Norwegian
UK
US
German
French
Turkish
Japanese
Dutch
Spannish
I am probably forgetting one, it was almost ten years ago...
Most linux distros allow you to set a compose key through a gui. For Windows there's (or at least was) WinCompose. I know fuck all about MacOS, so I can't help you there.
I do know about that, but that is just picking a number from a list, the clever part of a compose key is that you can sort of figure it out on your own; if you are on a US keyboard and need to type the letter/word "Å" it makes sense to try with compose+Ao but when that didn't work you tried compose+oA and got it.
Not to be that guy, but on Linux if you highlight text you have already copied it to a different clipboard than the CTRL-C/V one, and can paste it by a middle click. This has been the default in Linux since before I used it (I'm 17 years in with Linux), but CTRL-C/V are so in my head that I usually forget to do it.
I was told that this would go away with Wayland, but I just tested it in a Plasma6 Wayland session and it clearly has not gone away.
The thing with Wayland is that it's not anymore built into the display server itself, like it was with X.org. So, this works on Plasma, because KDE implemented it themselves. On other Wayland compositors, this may not get implemented.
But yeah, we'll have to see. If there's a way to make it work for all wlroots-based compositors, that would give it pretty wide support, again.
I had been trying it for awhile off and on, but told myself I'd jump in with two feet when I could get wifi working with no troubleshooting. As you know wifi was rough back then sometimes, and I had absolutely no capability to troubleshoot linux. But I figured as long as I had reliable wifi, everything else was just a google away. Oddly, that was not Ubuntu (I probably also tried 7.04 - I expected Ubuntu to be what did it) - it was a now defunct slackware based distro called Zenwalk.
There needs to be a cool word for people who started with Linux in the same year lol. 🙂
I tried binding them to my MMO mouse keys once, and immediately removed them when I imagined how easy it would be to accidentally copy and paste something unwanted into a PowerPoint presentation. WFH and all that, you know. It’s good that it takes a tiny bit of intention.
I mainly used irssi via ssh to connect to IRC back in the day. And one side effect of right clicking in the putty window is that it automatically pastes. And if whatever you paste contains a newline, it gets submitted to whatever channel or person you have focused.
Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V have been so burned into my muscle memory, relearning to use just a single dedicated button might actually be more trouble for me than just using the standard hotkeys.
I have a row of macro keys on my keyboard on the left side. I thought I'd be smart and add copy and paste macros (that were near mm's away from Ctrl) and I never used them.
Muscle memory would always take over and I'd Ctrl+C Ctrl+V. I realized it would take more work to train myself to use the macro keys (and God forbid I used a different keyboard) than I was saving not having to press a key combination
Could you screenshot this again but showing what each key maps too?
Christian Seleg (not sure if spelt correctly, but the Apollo for Reddit dev) has a recent video on his channel about making a keyboard very similar to this shape and it looked really cool but again couldn’t quite understand what key each is.
I configured it using ZMK, it's a firmware for wireless keyboards. The keyboard is "wireless", I'm just using USB cables for power while I'm waiting for the batteries to arrive. The keyboard you saw might be the Ferris Sweep, which mine is based on. Well, based on is probably the wrong word, I copied the layout, rotated the pinkies a bit and did the PCB myself using Ergogen and Kicad.
This is my default layer:
I use the Colemak mod DH matrix layout. Colemak is a common alternative key layout, mod DH is a certain modified version of it, and matrix means that the keys aren't row staggered.
You can also see that some keys have some more stuff on them, those are homerow mods (red) and dual function layer keys (blue). Homerow mods is the name for a common practice on small keyboards where you place modifier keys in the homerow along with the normal keys. Holding them turns them into the modifier and pressing them is just the normal key.
Holding A or O is like holding CTRL
R or I is ALT
S or E is Shift
T or N is the Windows key
The keyboard is split so they're mirrored on the two sides (also useful for when you want to do CTRL+A for example)
The layer shifts function similarly, pressing them results in the normal key (tab, space, enter) and holding them shifts me to a different layer (layer 7, layer 1 (its 0 indexed), and layer 2). Layer 7 has function keys, layer 1 is for navigation and layer 2 has my symbols.
layer 1:
(here you can see that I technically have a "numpad", just that it's always directly under my hand instead of off to the side
layer 2:
layer 7:
I have 11 layers in total, but the other 7 are just special layers for games. I use this keyboard for everything, including programming and gaming without any issues.
edit: not sure why people downvoted you, it's an awesome question and I'm glad you gave me an excuse to spam you all with info about my keyboard. Also, Ben Vallack got me into all of this, he kinda inspired this layout. He has some AWESOME videos about keyboards like this, look him up if you're interested! You don't have to go as far as I did.
Mechanical keyboards like this are often fully programmable. I have a ZSA Moonlander and routinely modify the function of each and every key. Everyone’s workflow is a little different, for example I have a Del Word key which deletes entire words, but is really a macro of the OS key + Backspace.
it's much easier to hit comfortably in that location making it a better meta key, usually stupidly big on most keyboards making it even better, and i literally never need caps lock, ever.
Why is it that keyboards have not evolved to have dedicated copy/paste keys left of the main board?
You mean like on a Sun type 4 keyboard, they had this since the early 90’s at least.
If you want this, you can try to find a Sun type 7 keyboard which has a USB connector. You should be able to get it to work on Windows with a bit of remapping of the extra keys.
I generally think that chording is superior to single button presses, which is what is normally done, but if you want a single button, you can either set up some existing button on your keyboard that you don't use to do that or, if you want to keep those, you can get a macro pad, and set one of its buttons up for that.
Keyboards already have too many keys. Your fingers are extremely inefficient at certain distances so you should never even touch numpad with proper keyboard design. 10 fingers can combine a lot of keys.
Got myself a cheap Chinese programmable foot switch with three switches that enables me to do exactly that without fucking up my normal layout.
And it can be switched to other things depending on the application as well.
Very useful.
I have a mouse that happens to have two extra buttons off to the side and mapping those to 'copy' and 'paste' has been the best thing i've ever done for my productivity. Also mapping middle mouse button to 'screenshot to clipboard' but that's just a personal thing i happen to do a lot
If I was an evil peripheral manufacturer, I'd not only add keys to copy and paste, but I'd add them to the mouse too.
Then I'd have a small display in the keyboard that showed the last five things you copied, and let you select which one you'd paste.
That way users would get used to it, have to buy my gratuitously expensive peripherals with displays in them for no reason, and then not know how to use anything else.
Linux has its own weird implicit copy paste on the mouse - pressing the wheel pastes the last thing you selected.
It depends though - if you're copy pasting between programs, you're probably using your mouse already, so it's good that the buttons are there. But if you're writing or editing text, you probably have your hands on the keyboard, so you need the shortcut there as well.
Yes, it's weird, but maybe he does a lot. For example, I use the superkey+space to change the keyboard layout about five times per minute, but I changed it to use the Caps Lock key to change the keyboard layout instead.
This is one of the greatest features ever. I constantly use it. I always get screwed up if I end up on a windows system and select text and wonder why I can't paste it with a click.
I don't know about that but I think we need two clipboards, standard. If we had the existing clipboard and a second with dedicated keys that would be very helpful.
I love how the clipboard works on Android. It has a whole history you can copy a bunch of things and then select which instance you want to paste. I want that in Windows.
You can do that in Windows and on some Linux distro, at least on KDE. It might be a setting you have to turn on. Hit windows key + v to choose what to paste
Linux has sort of two clipboards. There's the normal Ctrl-c/Ctrl-v one and also if you highlight a text you can paste that text using middle mouse button.
You're missing the point, in Linux middle mouse button works for the navigation that you're mentioning, and additionally it pastes the text you have selected (not the one you have copied, so realistically you can "copy/paste" two things at once). So you don't lose anything, you just gain functionality.
At some point, the populace felt keyboard shortcuts were enough and they have everything else they need on a keyboard. It's the standard, other keyboard designs didn't really quite take off, and most people can barely use a full-sized keyboard anyway.
Some people prefer smaller keyboards, and are willing (and wanting) to have more shortcuts and function layers for ergonomic and desk space reasons.
(If you use a 40% or smaller keyboard, you're weird, and I love/hate you.)
Some other people use so many shortcuts that it becomes so infeasible to remember or press them all, so they get macro pads, or even entire additional keyboards to function as macro pads.
In the Before Time, there were physical keyboard overlays for specific apps. For example Wordperfect had an overlay that showed it's keyboard functions.
I really like the idea of the stream deck to have application specific shortcuts readily accessible with less memorization. I just can't convince myself it's worth $150 when I'd probably have to spend a bunch of time setting it up to be useful.
When I started my current job, I thought I was getting a repetitive stress injury from the hundreds of copy pastes I was making daily. Eventually I got used to it, but my hand still hurts occasionally.
I highly recommend mice with additional programmable keys, speech recognition, and programmable foot pedals. I use all three at work and they're great for splitting the workload across different body parts.
Is it "Emacs pinky" possibly? Emacs is an editor with hotkeys for just about everything and a lot are based on CTRL.
I've gotten used to using an Emacs layout and eventually my pinky started to ache too bad so I remapped caps lock to be control and everything is much more comfortable now.
"5 zillion hotkeys? Ridiculous! We should add dedicated buttons for common operations."
There are now 5 zillion hotkeys and "media buttons" nobody uses.
...
Seriously though, a lot of old keyboards in ye olde computers had dedicated buttons for a lot of things, but then people figured out software defined, remappable key commands are actually pretty neat. You don't need a dedicated "Help" key if it's usually mapped to F1. Moving back to dedicated keys is, ummm, sometimes unwarranted?
I can see the benefit, although personally I'm too attuned to ctrl+c,v,z,x
A key I'd really like to see on computer keyboards is a shift key that behaves the same as on a phone, toggling between lowercase, Title Case, and UPPERCASE.
It'd be so useful to be able to select text you've already typed and change the format. Phones have done it for years, why not computers? Could be a much better use for the Caps Lock key.
I like the mnemonics of c (copy), v (get in there), x (snip-snip), and z (bad idea) as much as I like the similar ones for bold and italics.
text you've already typed and change the format.
Control (shift) + F3 used to do that in MS word. Highlight your text and Toggle Through The POSSIBILITIES.
I've seen a few that do that, actually. Like a media keyboard with buttons for music controls, there are some that have additional functions like copy, paste, cut, double space, double enter, etc.
I'm pretty happy working as a developer where I can choose my own editor. (Neo)Vim, Kakoune, now Helix, they all just have one single key used for copying (/"yanking") text to a register: y, and it's bloody fast. I can't even use VS Code without a Vim or Helix or Kakoune emulator extension. But of course I prefer to use the faster, pure terminal applications.
To be honest I'm not really that great with Vim actions anymore. Even if I was using it for about a decade. The Kakoune and Helix model just made too much sense.
It's true they would probably be more useful to the average keyboard user than say the scroll lock key, or the fucking copilot key. But to be really useful, they would have to be easily accessible without moving you bands, or else it'd just be faster to use a shortcut.
Keyboards with macro keys do exist so maybe get one and map them to CTRL+C/V
My keyboard has a column of configurable macro keys. My last one had two columns. I use them soooo much I have literally never bothered to figure out how to set them up on this one.
I got one of those 8BitDo retro keyboards a while ago, the one with the FamiCom color scheme, and it comes with these two giant "a" and "b" buttons that you can map to macros. You could set one of those to CTRL+C and the other to CTRL+V and just bop either button when you need either function.
Barring that, for Windows there's Auto-Hotkeys or MKLC (Win10)/Keyboard Manager (Win11). For Linux, I use Input Remapper for remapping mouse keys, but it works for keyboards too.
My Cloud9 ErgoFS has dedicated keys for that. But, my fingers have known Ctrl+c/v for my entire life, plus they're more easily reachable, so I still do that.
My only problem is Linux at home and Mac at work with the same keyboard so I tend to accidentally hit super+c in Linux because that's the cmd key on Mac
I think this is a good idea though it would have to be easier to press than the current hotkeys. I'd also love to have two different clipboards so I could have two things copied at once.
It could use hotkeys for that! Like CPY or PST would be regular copy and paste, but CPY+1 or CPY+2 would copy to that clipboard, then you could use PST+2 if you wanted.
Well I’ve found Mac key commands a lot more ergonomic since I can use thumb and index finger instead of pinky. I still end up mashing control c all the time in my terminal, but anything centered around the command key is way nicer. That said, inside classic editors like vi/vim and emacs, there are completely different copy paste commands that don’t use modifiers.
I copy paste a lot, but it feels natural- I also have to paste with modifiers a lot for things like “paste and match style”, paste as quotation, etc… a dedicated button would probably complicate that. Final thought- unless you move an existing button out of the way, a dedicated button would be hard to reach, where as command/control c/v are directly under fingers already.