When talking to people who dislike UBI about UBI, they'll often say both that 'people need a purpose in life' and that 'nobody will work if they get free money'.
When talking to people who dislike UBI about UBI, they'll often say both that 'people need a purpose in life' and that 'nobody will work if they get free money'.
Those seem incompatible to me.
(UBI means Universal Basic Income, giving everyone a basic income, for free)
In trials, it has consistently boosted productivity. More people need it in order to be productive than the amount that choose to be less productive once they won't die from not being productive.
Also in trials, it has not costed more than current social programs in those areas. Clearing redundancies and red tape accounted for enough cost cuts to make UBI overall cost a similar amount or less than what all the various programs with all their various overhead costed all added together.
Exactly, this whole discussion should not be about what people feel about it.
Trials have shown it works beneficially. Quite so. Nevermind the standard of living increase and getting people off the streets, those aren't even included in that, it's just about productivity that is boosted.
So yeah, whenever someone says they feel it'd be negative, we tried it already, facts disagree with your feelings.
The funniest thing is it's the same basic argument as free market Vs planned economy. The individual knows better what they need right now. Why this doesn't appeal more to the right than it does says a lot about a good chunk of right wing politics.
The current system is akin to a planned economy. You are told what you can spend the money on, and what you can't. UBI lets the end recipient decide where it's most useful. E.g. for one person, a car is a worthless expense, while better food makes a big difference. For another, they are ok living on cheaper food for a while, but a replacement car would let them bootstrap themselves upwards, economically.
Trials where?
Studies in motivational theory have been around for years which generally agree that at a very basic level people need security first, not necessarily to motivate but to be in a position to be motivated. Repeatedly pay has been proven to be a poor motivator over time. By removing the basic insecurity that people face, you give them a chance to focus on actual motivating factors like job satisfaction, self-worth and realisation.
I am on parental leave right now and doing chores around the house never have been more fun and fulfilling.
I don't have to think about work, we have enough money to not worry about being short at the end of the parental leave. I can concentrate on what is important right now (my family) and not worry about the rest.
If you don't have to worry about basic things of life, you will find a fullfilling purpose. But the system as set up right now is a scam and people are increasingly squeezed for basic necessities, so they can't afford to have a purpose.
Congrats on your kid and I wholeheartedly agree.
Absolutely. Security is the enemy of fear and capitalism. Fear as Frank Herbert put it, is the mind killer. If we have security, all of a sudden the horrendous business practices capitalism has been built on and motivated by. Sort of fall apart. Go to work in a soul crushing job, with a toxic environment, for too little pay? Why, when you could stay home and start your own business, maybe even become a better competitor. Or just wait for something better to come along.
Fear is the tool of the powerful. Whether it's fear of some group they tell you to fear. Or fearing them directly. Without fear, many of the crises we seem to constantly be juggling. Would find themselves solved. Humanity has the ability to feed and house everyone. Right now. The reason we don't is that the wealthy and powerful would lose wealth and power. And we can't have that.
I want UBI so all the lazy motherfuckers who don't want to work get out of the fucking way. Sit at home in front of your TVs cramming doritos down your gullet all day for all I care, just as long as you aren't half passing whatever job you're doing and creating problems for me.
That is a very unique take And a very very good argument to people against it
Yes, except that costs will also go up for services because there will be fewer workers. I'm in favor of UBI but it will definitely increase costs, especially for wealthy people who rely on relatively cheap help.
Most wealthy people don't even manage their own households. They hire people to drive their cars, cook their food, and take care of their children. They pay other people to build or renovate their houses and even manage the building and renovating.
People won't want to work for low amounts of money. It will literally be too expensive to be wealthy. The few people who do want to work in service positions are going to ask Jeff Bezos for a million dollars a year.
The sad thing about UBI in places like the US is they further systematic change needs to happen prior to UBI being implemented.
If you have UBI added on to our current capitalist hellscape (since UBI rates will be publicly known) landlords and corporations will just hike prices to make life cost just as much as UBI—therefore forcing people to work for any scrap above that. So essentially UBI will be fed back into corporations/the elite, who will also continue to make profit on the labor the lower class does to afford anything above basic necessities.
who will also continue to make profit on the labor the lower class does to afford anything above basic necessities
If someone can afford basic necessities, they aren't going to choose to work three jobs at minimum wage where they are treated badly, forcing an improvement in pay/conditions to find any workers. As for setting prices arbitrarily, that isn't actually possible except where a monopoly is held, the idea that supply and demand influences price is not a myth. Having money and the choice of how to spend it does actually give you additional agency and leverage, and UBI would serve as a form of redistribution if it is funded by taxes of some kind.
Except that landlords are coming together to set prices so that they can all set them high. I don't remember what the group is called, but someone was discussing it a while back. Doesn't have to be a monopoly if they're conspiring, which is what is happening with so many consumer goods and services.
Not so simple honestly it would also be funded by a reduction in bureaucracy, and spending on poverty alleviation. I'm in NY there are 50 something counties here each with their own DSS office. Think of the reductions in demand for some of these dumb programs that essentially kick the worker while their down.
UBI on it's own is not a problem for me. Where I take issue is when politicians say "we'll give you cash instead of these social safety net programs". I think you have to have a mix of UBI and social safety net programs. It's all about raising the floor of the lowest living conditions we'll allow and right now, in America at least, we have too many rich people and too many poor people. A UBI of $1000/month doesn't help a person stuck in an ICU for months at a time and will just discharge to a SNF/LTAC facility.
UBI would not replace the need for universal healthcare.
Andrew Yang famously ran on a UBI platform, his plan was very clear on that issue, but he was very vague on his healthcare plan https://2020.yang2020.com/policies/medicare-for-all/
It's basically the Social Security plus Medicare combo like seniors in America get. It's not great or perfect but even if that's all you live on you can get by ok. The USA could just lower the ages. I know lowering the Medicare age comes and goes in the conversation about healthcare reform
Social safety net programs are fine but unless they're universal they'll inevitably create benefit cliffs which punish people for making more money. They also cost money to administer. UBI is super cheap and easy to administer: if you're a citizen you get a check or deposit every month. Simple. You could probably manage the entire operation with less than 1000 people.
The perverse incentive structure of non-universal aid is one of the most fucked up things our society does.
I've always wanted UBI to be a thing but after a discussion with my brother I'm second guessing it. His argument is that corporations will just increase their prices and not much would change.
He suggested that instead, we use the money that we would use for UBI to guarantee that EVERYONE'S basic needs are met. Housing, food, healthcare, etc..
I know it's easier said than done but I'm just worried that billionaires will fuck up UBI like they fuck up everything else.
He's assuming infinite elasticity, which isn't how prices work in real life.
The typical version of this argument is that the people who are being taxed in the first place are the ones increasing rents. In which case taxes can then be increased until the desired equilibrium is achieved.
That's not to say we couldn't also provide a basic safety net like he describes. But that raises the question of why UBI should stop there. If our economy can generate a surplus, then why shouldn't all humans sharing their slice of the Earth get it?
He suggested that instead, we use the money that we would use for UBI to guarantee that EVERYONE’S basic needs are met. Housing, food, healthcare, etc…
That is the entire purpose of UBI. Literally.
No he's altering who has the cash.
In his discussion he means:
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if the customer is given free cash, corporations might jack up prices to get some of it.
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if the customer has free healthcare, the corporation doesn't see any "free cash" they can get some of. Of course they're aware the customer should be spending less on necessities like healthcare, but they aren't necessarily bringing home more than they were last month, they're just retaining more.
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Yup that’s a common critique of UBI. Landlords will jack up rent and end up hovering a huge amount of the benefits. Your landlord knows you’re all of a sudden making $12k more per year? Welcome to your new $10k rent hike.
For UBI to function we need basic price controls or necessities provided for before it makes any sense to introduce.
As one implementation of that, a UBI can simplify the complexities of the existing safety net systems and smooth the welfare cliff.
I no longer need to pay for low income housing (I can just get some money and rent something), I'm no longer restricted by what an EBT card can buy (I just get money), I don't need to qualify for XYZ niche benefit (I just get some money), etc. And that money could more easily be adjusted/reduced as my income grows which smooths the welfare cliff.
It also frees up a ton of money that was previously used to manage the existing complex systems and allows more efficient spending.
And that money could more easily be adjusted/reduced as my income grows which smooths the welfare cliff.
It's important to note that UBI isn't supposed to be a form of welfare. The idea is it's a basic citizen right. It's not means tested in any way so you should get it regardless of your income otherwise you're disincentivised to increase your income (which is a problem a lot of benefits currently have), if I go to work for 8 hours a day and then come home and have the exact same or less money than I would have had on benefits then what's the point? The government, mostly the conservative types, would like to classify that as lazy scrounging but it's just economic savvy.
If I get UBI whatever then any extra money I earn is for luxuries, I can then spend that money and contribute to the economy rather than holding on to it in case the boiler decides to blow up all the car breaks down or something which is what most people are currently doing.
Everyone benefits when everyone benefits.
Corps would just find a way to be the ones to supplies those basic needs. They would still inflate prices and deliver substandard results.
Capitalism is the problem
That's UBS, Universal Basic Services, one possible alternative to UBI, but more likely, we'll end up with a bit of both, I think.
That'd be nice
Prices are not set by how much money you are capable of spending, it's set by supply and demand. The only time that's not true is when a company is a monopoly and the good is something you can't do without. Of course, a huge part of the problem is that we have way too many monopolies so yes, some companies will be able to raise their prices without pressure from competition, but you'd still be better off since not all companies are monopolies.
Yeah, if money = power, and everybody gets some from the government, I think that what the UBI is spent on will be controlled. You must spend it on basic needs or your account will be frozen.
My main worry is that UBI will be a Trojan Horse to control the spending of everyone receiving it, possibly through some central distribution system. That’s how I think the billionaires will fuck it up.
That's why UBI should just be cash. No account, no card, nothing to trace or manage.
How about using your UBI check on basics instead of rampant consumerism. Also if it gets fucked up we as consumers need to take some fucking responsibility.
Also people's jobs are being displaced by technology at a rapid rate and is continuing at a steady pace. Large swathes of the population may simply not have enough money to afford anything because they don't have jobs. So unless you suggest these people simply die off because we make some people rich?
All you people thinking prices will just go up have already been poisoned by billionaire propaganda.
It's not
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Nobby Nomoney £0 > £10k a year
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Sammy Scrapesby £20k > £30k a year
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Maddie Medianearner £38k > £48k a year
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Billy Billionaire £1m > £1.01m a year
The median earners will have tax adjusted so they earn about the same. The lower earners will get more. The high earners will get less. You'll have pretty much the same amount of money sloshing around the system, it'll just be in the hands of the people who need it.
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Nobby Nomoney £0 > £10k a year
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Sammy Scrapesby £20k > £27k a year
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Maddie Medianearner £38k > £38k a year
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Billy Billionaire £1m > £700k a year
Guess which of those doesn't want this to happen.
Those billionaires aren't paying rent. Rent increases are what most people are worried about with UBI. If the lower earners suddenly have more money that the landlords know about, they are definitely going to hike up rent until we are back to square 1. Those billionaires will just claw that money back. UBI doesn't make sense until we have more regulations in place for price control.
It seems like a reasonable expectation, but do you have any studies or other evidence that it happens? The studies I've seen generally say things like "Evidence has not appeared for commonly hypothesized potential adverse social and economic consequences of UBI."
Exactly, it's an economic stimulus package aimed directly at the people who are currently being forced to work for as little money as possible. The people with the money do not want the boot taken off the neck of the poor.
It would be more cost-effective to give homeless people home and treatment than to allow them to be on the streets. So why don't we? Because homeless people exist as a reminder to everyone else that there is a huge penalty for failing to continue working.
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If they need a purpose, they'll find it much easier when they don't have to worry about basic fuckin' survival.
Yeah, it is contradictory.
I'm gonna spin an anecdote here.
My main job for the first twenty years of my adult life was as a nurse's assistant.
It wore out my body early, and I've been disabled because of that almost as long .
I got paid shit for doing it. Many of my coworkers were shit because of the bad pay, but it was the still the best job they could get, so the job tended to be split unevenly between people that were willing to bust their ass taking care of other people, and a minority that shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near a patient for one reason or another.
UBI? I would have still shown up. I would have done the job with joy in my heart. I wood have been happier because I would have been able to take breaks between patient deaths to grieve. I would have been able to leave shitty businesses sooner and fight to have them changed when they made choices against patient interests instead of being a disposable helper monkey that nobody would listen to.
It's true that I would not have put up with bullshit idiots in administration. I would not have worn myself into a nub just to barely make enough to survive and then still need side jobs.
With UBI I could have done more, better, and not have had to destroy myself in the process. It would have been a reason to work that job. It would have meant the freedom to do the job better because I wouldn't have been forced to work to survive when I was blatantly and obviously unable to give my best.
And, even if UBI was the only money I got, I would have at least done the job part time because it was my purpose in life. I made helping people my purpose, no matter what it cost me. Why the fuck wouldn't I have done the same when I didn't have to eat shit to do it?
It’s true that I would not have put up with bullshit idiots in administration.
This is, on some level, exactly what they are worried about.
Precisely what they are worried about.
From a capitalist perspective it's ideal if your workers are on the verge of poverty, living paycheck to paycheck. That's exactly where you want them.
People in that situation won't complain. Won't stand up for themselves or their rights. Will take poor treatment and deal with it. Will work in unethical or even illegal ways and keep quiet because they have no choice.
Even better if you can tie people's health insurance to their job, then you've really got them by the balls.
UBI would put an end to all that, so it's no wonder business owners would lobby against it.
Bingo! "If we make it easier for you to survive, you will become harder to take advantage of"
Agreed!
I think what they're trying to say is nobody will want to work shit jobs for next to no pay.
I don't see how that's a bad thing except for employers. If the job is worth doing, the money should be worth it too. People shouldn't be forced to do shitty/dangerous jobs just to survive.
That's a common theme most people here overlook. Some people actually enjoy working hard and getting things done. We don't need to support the lazy people.
Are there some shitty jobs that don't deserve higher pay because of the value they contribute? Or do you see that being a business that shouldn't exist? So let's take a sewer company or something. Or any maintenance position where it's not clear there's a dollar value on the value being produced.
For example, restaurant probably aren't possible if waiters and back of house are all paid 30/h.
I'm mostly trying to understand what you're really trying to get at. I don't think its possible for all jobs to be equally paying or be equally good - there's always going to be inequality there. Unless you're arguing there shouldn't be shitty jobs but there's literally always going to be shitty jobs in any society and economic framework you spin up.
Society will still need people who perform maintenance on sewers, do construction, clean building etc
For example, restaurant probably aren't possible if waiters and back of house are all paid 30/h.
Somehow in every country other than the US they are able to pay restaurant staff a living wage.
From your example, what I'm saying is nobody should be cleaning a sewer for minimum wage. If you need your sewer fixed you can either do it yourself or pay someone enough that they'd be willing to do it.
If you can't pay someone enough, obviously fixing that sewer wasn't important enough to you.
I'm not saying everyone should get the same wage. There's a huge difference between flipping burgers and working in a mine, and the pay should reflect that.
Supply and demand are perfectly capable of putting a price on sewage disposal that balances the interests of all involved.
Ignoring their ideas entirely, it's incredibly simple. There are two options.
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No ubi. Eventually AI automates all jobs, the 1% becomes virtually omnipotent, and everyone else dies.
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Ubi. Some of the profits earned by companies are funneled into the ubi system. As such, everyone has income. The economy booms, everyone thrives, and we reach post scarcity.
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My issue with it is that you haven’t run trials with people min-maxing how to squeeze people for their UBI checks. As a start, just raising rent until it eats all the UBI
It was done in Vancouver, late 2021 to late 2022.
Surely they have though. Anywhere where they ran the trials for more than about 3 months would have been an area where people tried to get other people's UBI checks. That's human nature for you.
As a start, just raising rent until it eats all the UBI
You can’t just arbitrarily raise the rent to whatever you like.
It depends on local regulations. There's no federal law that limits the rent increase, if given notice. Like I'm pretty sure NYC has some kind of rent control, but at least here in Oklahoma it's not common.
Edit: I found this, and I now feel worse
the state has rules that prevent local governments from creating their own rent control laws. In simpler terms, landlords in Oklahoma have the power to decide how much rent they want to charge without any legal limitations from the state or local authorities.
UBI is not a matter of "if", it's of "when".
With automation and the fuckin AI, companies can do more and more with less and less people.
The concept of unemployement will be alien as well.
In a cool universe maybe, but realistically it's just gonna mean line goes up faster for the people at the top, while employees and customers see little/none of the rewards. That's how automation has always been: workers do the same amount of work for the same pay while producing more, customers maybe get a slight discount, the execs get a few mil/bil in bonuses. Without a hell of a lot of strikes and government intervention I doubt there's any other way for it to go
Eventually humans won't be capable of performing any valuable economic activity, but in the past those who weren't capable of performing valuable economic activity usually ended up as starving beggars rather than pampered pets... I think that a future of robots working for robots with humans struggling to survive on the periphery is not unlikely.
Not every place is like the US.
Only if we get rid of greedy billionaires first tbh.
The rise of tech has killed off a huge amount of jobs. There used to be people doing everything like operating elevators and doing calculations but those jobs have moved into other sectors. Now we have jobs tech support and sale person at the Apple store.
Jobs will never vanish because demand always requires jobs. You can't have an economy if no one can pay for things. That's true from the billionaires down to the fast food worker.
Jobs will never vanish because demand always requires jobs. You can't have an economy if no one can pay for things
The topic here is UBI
There's no contradiction when you consider most people consider most other people to be childish idiots who can't be trusted to decide what's best for themselves and to pursue their own self-actualization (unlike "me" of course).
Most children get a UBI. Where TF are their bootstraps? Bring back child labor.
Eh. Some yes, some no.
I think that a better solution would be creating jobs that pay a living wage, much like we did in the Great Depression. Something that would give your life some kind of external structure. I find, for myself, that when I have zero time pressures from work, that it's easy to do nothing at all, and I've found that most people are the same.
EDIT: SHould add - jobs should be scaled to capabilities, rather than being one-size-fits-all.
I think that part of the reason why is that work has (many of) us so beat down anyway. I imagine there's probably a certain amount of time where that tendency will dissipate and you'll want to be productive again.
Fuck the 40 hour work week.
Are you also ADHD? I have this same problem myself tbh
I've seen it in most people once they have no external pressures to do anything. Not everyone. But def. most people I've known that weren't loaded with money and could afford to travel, etc. without needing to work.
Politicians everywhere have been "creating jobs" all the time. That's just a myth. You can't just create jobs indefinitely and it doesn't solve societies problems. What kind of jobs do you have in mind?
Jobs that there's typically not the political will to do otherwise: public works, things that are a net public good, but aren't profitable (or are insufficiently profitable to entire a private company to make the investment). During the Great Depression the gov't created tens of thousands of jobs, so it's def. not a myth. You could easily do things like de-automate jobs, or adequately staff federal agencies, use labor to build off-shore wind farms that are currently not profitable enough for private industry to build, so on and so forth. (Fed. agencies, pretty near across the board--aside from the military--have had funding and staffing cut for decades, to the point where e.g. the IRS doesn't have enough people to go after anything more than a tine percentage of people that cheat on tax or commit tax fraud.)
IIRC, the Appalachian Trail was originally cleared during the Great Depression, and has since been maintained by volunteers. Shit, you could (and should) pay people to do it, rather than expecting them to give labor simply because they believe that the AT is a public good (which I would agree it is).
The typical 'job creation' is more about giving private companies tax incentives to enter an area, rather than the gov't being them employer.
I dislike UBI but not because I'm not for a basic income, I just think Means Testing would be better. I've said this before but now after being the runner-up in my state for debating on this topic I feel more confident talking about it. Ultimately there are many ways of implementing fiscal redistribution but means testing is substantially cheaper than a full UBI (especially in countries with higher populations, e.g. US), while also providing social utility and enabling recipients of the basic income to have more resources. Not only is MT better from this standpoint but a UBI can also worsen inflation by increasing the dollar's velocity (1 dollar changes hands more). I won't deny that most people could use money, especially right now, but a UBI is not the best approach in my mind because of these reasons. Of course I am still in highschool, am not an economics expert, and MT was the plan that we ran in tournament so I'm a bit biased.
ETA: This is all keeping in mind the current political and economic climate of the United States, where realistically neither of these plans will pass but I believe MT has more merit to being passed compared to UBI. If you'd like any sources on what I've said I'd be happy to share!
How you gonna write all that and not even give a hint at what Means Testing is?
A means tested basic income is a type of BI that, as proposed by the institute on race and political economy in the US, expands the Earned Income Tax Credit program to include those who aren't earning an income, providing every adult in the country up to $12,500 per year calculated on a sliding scale based on income, as well as up to $4,500 per child. These numbers are as of 2021 so they could've changed by now, but basically it gives everyone a certain amount of money if they are below the poverty line (calculated by their current income), to lift them above the poverty line and keep them out of poverty.
It's more, I guess you could call it a niche, type of basic income so it's on me for not explaining it, just used to everyone in our debate season already knowing what it is lol, sorry.
We already have means testing though and it barely helps anyone compared to how much help ubi would give to people.
The broader US doesn't have a means tested program though, sure you could argue that programs like SNAP etc are MT but they aren't BI programs. According to the LISC Institute for Community Power in 2022, a lot of guaranteed income pilots in the US are targeted to certain groups, or means tested, and show "extra funds are typically spent on food, health care, paying down debt and household needs. Full-time employment among recipients actually increased[...]" This is data from the Stockton pilot, but you can read more from the full source here
There's not necessarily a contradiction there. People often choose not to do things that would be good for them. For example, people need to exercise in order to be healthy, but they generally don't. If for some reason we lived in a society where everyone was compelled to exercise, the people saying "a lot of people are going to ruin their own health if we stop forcing them not to" would have a point.
(Note that I'm not trying to argue that they're right, just that they're not contradicting themselves.)
people need to exercise in order to be healthy, but they generally don’t
Some of the reasons for that are relatively modern. Sedentary jobs and also sedentary commuting (car-centric travel), lack of robust+accessible infrastructure (for instance the trail local to me is still closed from ~6months ago, uncertain end). That and most food that isn't made-from-scratch having a ton of added sugar, even things like bread and ketchup that people consider staple foods.
A lot of that goes away when you can just throw money at it (or said benefits are thrown at you). Time and space end up being a result of money too, particularly when money is a limit which is true for most people.
I think I largely agree with your assessment that modern society and all its benefits mean that people get less day to day exercise via "normal" routine but I feel like I have to disagree that not having a local trail makes people unable to exercise. There's people in NYC who run miles and miles every day. It's possible anywhere.
Because it is so expensive to just live, people’s time is extremely limited. I don’t blame people that take care of their wants in that limited time off.
Like many people have already posted, if you didn’t spend all that mental (and physical) energy just scraping by, you will most likely have energy (and motivation) to take care of your health better.
That and it seems like everyone has depression or some sort of mental health ailment these days due to all the stresses that come with being poor.
Eh. Watching what was basically a UBI trial run during Covid in Canada and how it, among other things, has really put financial strain on the government and citiizens, has definitely made me opposed. This shit bankrupts nations.
I don't like it because it is close to communism. I like my freedom and and if someone wants a job they can get a job. It requires work but the employer can't discriminate unless you legitimately can't complete the job. I especially like seeing veterans overcome disabilities.