I support the cause in general but: Signal is not federated at all. It may seem like a decent alternative to WhatsApp but is it really? It still falls under the same US jurisdiction. Let's say the US gov starts agressively prosecuting dissidents and certain minorities (they already do): can and should we still use signal in this case? I don't think so. Sadly i can't name a much better alternative. Maybe matrix. But it has other issues.
Youtube is probably the one that you can't "Just Switch To Fediverse"
Youtube content is mainly by creators. If they won't leave, there will be no transition. And unlike reddit posts, you can't just reupload. Because they will copyright strike you and take it down. Also, videos take up a lot more space than just text and some low-res memes like reddit-type sites.
reddit is essentially a bunch of strangers talking to people, moving froms stranger Group A to stranger Group B is very easy to do. The reddit > Lemmy transition is probably one of the easiest. You're just joining a new group of strangers.
For everything else, your contacts will also need to switch.
For Mastodon, the people you follow will also need to switch. This is even harder than getting your friends to switch.
Hear me out.
Creators should be hosting peer tubes. And they should host exclusively their own content. Fans of their can subscribe to whatever systems they want to pay and support.
For creators, it's a backup for when YouTube the project inevitably fails. For fans as well. But it's also a backup of their content.
A lot of youtubers make a living posting videos.
They dont have a good enough reason to risk going to a much smaller audience with no ads and no membership system
They also probably arent knowledgeable enough about computers to switch
You don’t need to have a YouTube login to watch those. But you can join Peertube to post your content that you make without money as an end goal.
For Mastodon, the people you follow will also need to switch. This is even harder than getting your friends to switch.
Well I switched from the birdsite to Mastodon because a) I like to shout in the void and b) see what other people are shouting into the void. Doesn't really ultimately matter who's doing the shouting. People who go to social media exclusively for news and updates are a bit strange when you really think about it. You've got to have the shout in you.
(I'm only being half facetious here)
Lol shouting in the void is a funny way to describe it. I mean... why even need the fediverse. I can shout at my mirror.
You also can't just switch from whatsapp to signal. I have hundreds of contacts on whatsapp that message me constantly there, and 2 on signal.
@jonjuan That's totally true! I tried to use WhatsApp just for work and Telegram for my friends and contacts, but only my wife and mom were talking to me there 😂. However, I think it's important to keep talking to people about alternatives. That way, we can switch from this "proprietary web" to a free one.
Remember the early days of YouTube? When people made garage videos for fun? Remember Vines? When people were making videos instead of businesses making content?
That’s what Peertube is for. It’s to have fun. Showcase your high school band. Talk about your potted plants. Share your excitement about trains. It’s not to make money. It’s to live.
PipePipe is on F-Droid
instead of switching ive mostly just been ditching entirely. I need less time interacting with internet people.
literally the only thing on this list im still using is facebook messenger, for my work colleagues. and youtube. everything else ive migrated (reddit-lemmy), or abandoned and torched
It’s funny how things work out.
I’ve spent years checking social media multiple times per day, and due to current (and not so current) events, I initially just deleted twitter. I tried mastodon, but it was a complete echo chamber. Twitter on the other hand was 25% bots and 50% porn, so I just deleted it. Turns out I didn’t miss it.
I recently did the same with Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and Snapchat. Guess what, not missing those either.
Facebook messenger is tough to get rid of though. I have kids that attend after school activities, and there aren’t really any easy fixes. I doubt I can successfully persuade 100+ people to migrate to signal just because of my political crusade.
It’s not being helped by the fact that ~75% of the people here use iPhones, so most communication not going through messenger goes through iMessage. Last I checked I knew a total of 4 people on signal, despite having 50+ people i regularly communicate with over messenger or iMessage.
I doubt I can successfully persuade 100+ people to migrate to signal just because of my political crusade.
Don't know till you try! And if you're playing the long game, you don't need to convince 100+ people -- the more individuals that join, the easier it will become to convince everyone else to make the switch too.
Only ones I use are YouTube and fb marketplace because Craigslist is totally dead here, but it's from an alt account I've never used for anything at all.
Check out Flohmarkt https://codeberg.org/flohmarkt/flohmarkt Instance list here: https://codeberg.org/flohmarkt/flohmarkt/wiki/flohmarkt-instances
More recently I've felt like there's issues with being completely disconnected from any sort of critical mass. If I wanted to join a protest in my local city, I have doubts any of the fringe social networks could organize that. I can do my part to try to get more people on there.
It's part of why I joined BlueSky over X. It's more popular, and issues be what they are, that counts for a lot.
Signal is centralized, loops is closed source and not accepting new users.
Loops will be open sourced later they say.
Is Loops open source? It will be! We plan on open sourcing the platform after it reaches a stable and easy to maintain state.
That really is not a satisfying answer. It is incredibly nebulous and even if it did have a nice definition I guarantee most software developers will tell you a lot of software rarely reaches that state.
I can see why they might want to avoid 1000 GitHub issues bike shedding things but they could open source the code and just not have open contribution
Why didn't I hear about this until the day of?
I was already on Mastodon by just having a Vivaldi (the chromium browser) account, and it's just lovely I've spent most of the day setting up lemmy, even though I joined feddit.dk 2 years ago, it's only just now I'm taking it seriously.
And, while not related to the fediverse per se, I switched to linux a year ago.
The only service that's hard to drop/switch away from is Youtube imo.It doesn’t have to be an all or nothing. If you have a decent ad blocker and don’t interact, even if you’re logged in, you’re already out of YouTube. Leave your interactions and uploads to Peertube.
I’ve removed yt from my phone and it was a positive change. I just watch stuff I get like sent or I search for. No more rabbit holes. Also no ads, background playback, playback with the phone locked… the only drawback is that closed captions don’t work full screen.
I’m having more trouble dropping Facebook messenger.
Pretty much everything “real life social” is organized through that. While I haven’t posted anything on Facebook for years, news from my local community, kids after school activities, birthday parties, etc are all organized through that.
Loops.video isn't accepting new users atm. Even if it was, I got in on early signup and I have next to zero functionality out of it rn. Just informing the curious masses
Loops isnt even federated or open source yet. Deleted my account
Loops really isn't ready for primetime. It's too new and unpolished, and will need a bit more time.
I wonder if peertube can scale. YouTube has a whole sophisticated system for ingesting and transcoding videos into dozens of formats, with tradeoffs being made on computational complexity versus file size/bandwidth, which requires some projection on which videos will be downloaded the most times in the future (and by which types of clients, with support for which codecs, etc.). Doing this can require a lot of networking/computing/memory/storage resources, and I wonder if the software can scale.
Yeah it’s no where near ready for mass adoption. It’s made a couple improvements, but it crashes every time I try to leave a comment.
Im using it now. I never used tiktok but i can see the draw now.
I keep seeing this type stuff but neither peertube or friendica are genuine replacements at this point, mastodon is weaksauce compared to akkoma or a misskey fork, and loops is alpha software. also yes signal is centralized but it just works and has contact discovery so it owns matrix and xmpp when compared to whatsapp. basically none of this stuff is truly ready
As software, PeerTube is great and there’s actually plenty of content to consume if you can find it. The more content creators we can get to use PeerTube, the more appealing PeerTube will also become.
Check this link out, if looking for content: https://peertube.wtf/
"If you can find it" ... that's the crucial point I suppose ... but without a discovery algorithm, interesting creators, and a VAST content archive, it can hardly be called an "alternative" for YouTube.
When I was looking into it I found the best use case was to use it as a self-hosted video archive to replace/extend my Vimeo. At least at that point, all instances that were remotely interesting were not taking any users, and the generic ones seemed to be very far away from what I'm doing content-wise.
And I guess as long as that's the case, and you have no ways to monetize content nor any significant reach due to the federated fragmentation, I don't think it's an interesting software/federated platform for creators ...
[Signal] has contact discovery so it owns matrix and xmpp when compared to whatsapp
Can you please elaborate? Idk what this means
matrix and xmpp just don't have the intuitive onboarding that signal has when coming from whatsapp
It means that, because signal mandates you to use your phone as ID, all your phone contacts that have signal are immediately signal contacts. Matrix, XMPP, SimpleX, etc. can’t really do that. That’s by choice, to preserve privacy, but it does create a friction point when migrating.
Loop.video is “currently not accepting new members”.
It's also a pretty rough experience tbh. It took about 2 days for me to gain access after signing up. Only usable via the Android sdk or iOS beta app. The infrastructure just isn't there yet.
Do you mean the android apk?
Damn
I was able to sign up just after seeing this comment. The wait is only 2 days...
Switching from WhatsApp to any other messaging service isn't a realistic option for quite many places. I'd be more than willing to switch but of all the people in my contacts (including my entire customer base) there's like 3 people using Signal but every single one of them has WhatsApp. Even the 60+ year olds.
Same (Brazil), Whatsapp is pretty much a requirement and I hate that I'm forced to give Meta my information by using their shitty app.
I’ll link my previous comment and add that it’s easier for Brazil.
Lembra de quando prenderam uns políticos pelos bate-papos do Telegram? É só lembrar a tua família que o WhatsApp tem a mesma fraqueza. Pergunta se eles confiam no Zuckerberg outra mandar os dados bancários que toda família manda de vez em quando. Documentos escaneados, dados pessoais…
Não consegui convencer os meus amigos mas confesso que poderia ter sido um pouco mais insistente. Quando o pessoal manda screenshot de transação bancária pelo wpp pra acertar conta de bar, dá pra dar uma instigada de leve. “A AI do Zuckerberg adorou ver os teus dados.” E deixa assim, vez por outra um comentário curto pra elevar a consciência de privacidade das pessoas. Uma hora vem. Ou não, mas tás fazendo tua parte.
I would say it's a step by step work. I have moved my family from Whatsapp to Signal years ago and then to Matrix. I forced them in some way but I just said "sorry if you want to keep contact we will have to find another app, I don't accept Whatsapp ToS." It took some time but my close family and friends are there and I regularly get someone to join, friend or family. It's still close circle but it's also a good thing. Same went with work. Colleagues wanted to do a whatsapp group for a project and I basically said "No, best I can do is Signal." and they went with it.
I stopped with Signal. Getting coworkers/family to move to signal was enough work, but I also trust the signal protocol enough to use a centralized service
Yeah I don't want to be that guy telling others to install an app to stay in contact with me. That would be extremely hypocritical on my part as I'm the one those people who refuses to install any apps people tells me to and it wouldn't solve the issue anyway as then I'd still be using WhatsApp as well but now I just have one more additional app to communicate with certain people.
Nowdays doesn't seem to matter where ever you go there's always an app you need to install to do XY and Z. I don't even have a Lemmy app as I only use it via browser. Same applies to YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Pixelfed, Reddit and so on.
I got my family out after some high profile data breaches on WhatsApp. We feel a lot safer sharing personal info over Signal and the switchover was painless. Even the video calls are great on signal.
There’s inertia, for sure, but once you highlight that some evil corp isn’t the one handling grandma’s inheritance data, it makes for a compelling case.
We all still have WhatsApp because we need to talk to the others. But our family chat only exists on Signal now.
My trouble as well, I'd love to switch from Whatsapp, but literally every person I talk to and most people in my city/estate/country uses It.
There's a "vendor lock" term, maybe this would be a "social lock"?
It has to start with someone. I made my entire family switch to signal by boycotting WhatsApp. I just said, of you want to contact me your can either SMS, email or install signal. It was surprisingly easy. For non family members, I tell people to switch all the time. Most of my contacts now use signal. It was worth the trouble.
I like this. I hope it starts conversations. Does anyone know if there are good alternatives to Discord?
Matrix. Seems to be the hottest thing for group chats. Also what a lot of open source projects that used IRC before are switching to (or, if not switching, are providing a bridge for).
TeamSpeak is doing an overhaul to be similar to Discord. You can self host.
oh cool!
IRC?
@M154nthr0p3 @malcriada_lala that is a nice one. Or #xmpp ;-)
Revolt is the way.
revolt.chat
Mumble + Element (Matrix)
Yes, there is Matrix
guilded could be consider one but really matrix and revolt are the privacy ones
yo, fuck discord, this is by far the most important one to emulate for me.
Zulip or Revolt
There are a few that I can't recall off the top of my head
FB Marketplace --> Flohmarkt is missing!
I haven't heard of it yet but it's very interesting! link for those who struggle to find it among german search results
This is such a beautiful guide!
Are any of these actually good?
I mean, aside from Lemmy. I tried Mastadon and no one was actually on it, seems like everyone is jumping to Bluesky.
I can vouch for Signal. I got my whole family out of facebook messenger to make a new place for family chat. Even my parents in their mid 60s had no problem changing.
I can vouch for Matrix unfortunately it is not listed and instead they mentioned Signal which is further from the fediverse.
Depends on how many you follow. Lemmy is way more dead than Mastodon for me.
I'm on Mastodon and I see plenty of activity, I don't miss twitter at all. I see less activity on Lemmy tbh
no one was actually on it
It might feel that way at first, but my Mastodon feed is very robust nowadays. You just need to follow more people.
George Takei is active of mastodon. There are many journalists and scientists. Tons of developers. A few small celebs. Also, many people I don't want to be here are not here. That's a plus for me.
From lemmy.caWhile not part of the fediverse if you want Twitter like activity I would suggest BlueSky. However I am also on Mastodon and I find it to have plenty of activity. It’s not the fire hose that Twitter is but to me that makes it much more manageable.
I've seen some authors I like on Mastodon, like William Gibson. It's a quieter place but I like that about it, as someone who never used Twitter.
I'm surprised this hasn't been said yet... but what I hate most about Signal is its requirement for a phone number. I don't want to be identified, and I want to be able to create multiple separate accounts with different identities if I want to.
I also hate the fact that it's a mobile-first service. Yes, there is a desktop application (and just one really crappy one at that), but it's clearly designed to revolve first and foremost around your phone and be virtually impossible to use without one. As someone who hates writing on a 3-inch screen, this is a also non-starter for me.
I understand the arguments about perfectionism, but this is too much. I'll stick with XMPP, Matrix and IRC, thanks.
It's meant to replace people's text messaging apps with .i imal barriers to entry. People's existing SMS/MMS contacts aren't stored by user account names, but by phone number.
When I added Signal to my device, I was able to open up my existing contacts and go.
My understanding from what you're writing (and from this article) is that the phone number is really the account number. That's all well and fine, but then they force you to verify that the number is yours (or at the very least, one that you have access to because you need to receive a confirmation over SMS), so you can't use something more private. And sure, it makes it a little harder to find your new contact, but I don't think it's really that big of a deal - just exchange your other "account number" via some other channel.
Besides, don't think for a second that when this identifying information inevitably falls into the wrong hands that it will benefit you in any way. "What are you hiding, citizen?" and all that bullshit.
The part of it that bothers me is the sense of entitlement that these companies exhibit. The "Give us your phone number or fuck off" sentiment is something I just refuse to accept. If Google forces us to do the same and we refuse, what makes Signal think that we'll do it for them when they're so much smaller by comparison? Especially when you're trying to claim you're more secure and private to people that much more tech savvy than average, this just comes off as not understanding your audience very well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that is holding out against using Signal because of this.
I’ll
That's why Signal's spreading and your not.
Where is matrix?
Hidden inside the whatsapp->signal box in tiny faint font. I was wondering why there isn't a big "Discord -> Matrix"
Here Revolt is suggested as an alternative to Discord which looks quite similar.
https://retro-gaiden.com/@Oregon_Pacifist/113929785493554770
Bad on-boarding
Right in the Signal box, it says "Or Matrix/XMPP". It's super tiny for some reason.
It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work; when you go to church; when you pay your taxes.
In my case I deleted instagram, instead of whatsapp I'm going to Matrix (I'll see who I get there), I changed Reddit for Lemmy and I'm trying to find an active Peertube instance that allows for account creation, live, and uploading videos
Check this list out: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15816115
yeah I'll be honest, peertube is nowhere near a youtube replacement
Is there an app for Loops.video?
Edit: Go to https://loops.video/ Make an account, and you should get an email afterwards to download the app from TestFlight or an Android APK.
Yup, its just called Loops, there is a download link once you log in for the APK directly or to the iOS testflight. (On a related note why does everything keep like this picture keep calling it "Loops.video" when it is just called "Loops"? - we don't call it "Lemmy.ml", "Mastodon.social" or "Peertube.tv")
I'm not really all that invested in trying out Friendica, because Facebook is basically the exact sort of social network service that I really don't give a darn about. I wanted to check it anyway, but the only tangible information on what Friendica is about is the project/marketing page. I can't browse the instances. If I go to your massive social platform, the last thing I want to see is just a brick wall of a login page. Then I looked at fedidb and... um, those aren't huge user numbers.
So I guess I'll keep posting on the services that seem more sensible to me, like Mastodon, Pixelfed and Lemmy.
Check out Circles
I’ve been on Signal for a while now. Have a bunch of groups but iMessage works with everyone.
It’s been a year and a half here on Lemmy. I still spend a lot of time on Reddit, but won’t comment there anymore.
I don’t WANT a Twitter replacement as it’s really only for celebs and idgaf.
I actually see enough value to pay for YT premium (kids complain incessantly about ads).
Friendica doesn’t seem to have an iOS app, and there’s a critical mass issue with wanting to connect with people that I know in real life.
I’m trying to get my Pixelfed feed to be with checking, and trying to be a regular poster, but it’s still REALLY sparse, and none of these offer the endless meme-video-clip scroll that my wife will have to have before switching away from Insta.
Loops really seems like it sucks. You can't see how long any video is, there's no way to thumb down really bad videos, and about 80% of all the videos seem like "really bad videos". I never even used tik tok, but im sure it wasn't content similar or it never would have gotten popular.
loops is still very early in development. people need to tamper their expectations.
Loops definitely needs more features but it's early. I've enjoyed it.
It’s for short form videos, it’s mimicking its competitors UX right now (namely YouTube shorts, Instagram reels and TikTok). Neither has thumb down or show you how long a video is.
As for content… the users generate content, not the software. So… how many good videos have you uploaded?
Nice to see the rear of them, was tough making the call to disconnect from a bunch of people, but I've told them where to find me. Hopefully it snowballs!
It will. I did the same thing a couple years ago. Make sure you share links to things like articles, videos, news, from the fediverse to your contacts. That helps them switch, when they see the platform in their mobile browser.
(momentary confusion as I wonder why I'd want to switch from the X Window System to Mastodon)
Woo! Made one of first steps of switching today!
Great graphic! The only things I use on this list are reddit and youtube. Trying peertube now. I'm confused about whatsapp and facebook messenger - don't people just use the texting app that comes with their phone?
You can't text abroad for free. I guess texting is fine if you only communicate within the country.
Sms is bad if you care about privacy, but great for voyeurs.
I frequently send dick pics between two of my phone numbers with fake messages about selling drugs and blowing things up attached, triggering them for a manual review in the government/carrier’s office.
Signal is very useful for minorities and anyone who’s actually planning a terrorist attack.
SMS is so ass, I can’t even.
Then it's official. SMS is so ass, one cannot even.
Fediverse is awesome!!
Friendica seems like a new thing? No apps for that yet either
Friendica was one of the very first fediverse platforms, and is over a decade old at this point. Hell, almost 2 decades old.
It's been here the a long time actually
I heard that it was one of the earliest Fediverse projects. It just hadn't surged in popularity like Mastodon and Lemmy had after the Twitter and Reddit exodus.
I actually think the facebook format is great, and I miss it despite having NO desire to use anything meta owns.
Friendica has the unenviable position of trying to convince people what sucked about facebook was not inherent to the format of the social network. That is why the fediverse is inspiring, people make tools they connect with, and then if popularity comes, great!
I need to try it out!
Bookface replicates the Facebook UI in Friendica :)
Raccoon
I wish it wasn't basically just a mastodon client though
Ok, downloaded peertube (because to hell with Google and YouTube) looked around... Um, is there not too much to look at right now? Are the people I normally watch on YouTube unable to be seen on peertube? Don't get me wrong, all about decentralized everything but if the people I like aren't there I'm feeling a bit up a creek.
Or, more likely, am I missing something? Forgive me, please, I am rather new to this concept and how to work the federations and such.
It's not an alternate way to view Youtube, it's a totally separate service. You're not missing anything, if no one's using it to post content, then there's no content. Youtube is a tough one to compete with because the infrastructure needed to host that much data and distribute it is insane. Peertube is super niche and not many know about it, but I do wonder how fast scaling would become a problem if it suddenly got an influx of new users.
Apart from that, it has to compete against the content monopoly Youtube has on the video platform industry.
The app is not really that great yet. I suggest to check this page out for content creators on PeerTube: https://peertube.wtf/home and also this list: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15810205
If you are also looking for a PeerTube server to register on, I suggest you look here: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15816115
Are the people I normally watch on YouTube unable to be seen on peertube?
Basically this. There are some creators that either switched or publish on both platforms, mainly from the Linux sphere (and, unfortunately, also some crackpots and/or scammers who got kicked from other platforms), but overall, it doesn't have a lot of content, especially content that's on a "professional" level.
Peertube is more like a "Proof Of Concept". In reality, most content creators will not switch to it (or even care enough to learn about it).
This isn't like the reddit --> Lemmy transition, where you switch from Stranger Group A to Stranger Group B. If creators aren't moving, there will be no transition. And, unlike with social media posts that you can repost, you can't even reupload Youtube videos because you'll get copyright take down notices (that the instance owner will legally have to comply with).
Btw, Peertube federates with other Peertube instances, Peertube and Youtube does not federate with each other. And it's not a front-end for Youtube either.
There will definitely be few content creators who post to PeerTube, if they are dependent on ad revenue. Those creators that are not, have a much easier time posting to PeerTube, because they essentially expand their reach.
I already done my part. I only keep WhatsApp for professional reasons (and barely use it) but the rest is already done. 😁
I got the PeerTube android app. It's very bare bones. As a first foray into peertube I'm not sure it's the way to go. I think I've set myself up for failure.
Anycase, I'll dedicate some time to try find some pocket of content I like tomorrow. Getting away from YouTube sure would be nice.
May I recommend NewPipe on android? It's a proxy for YouTube/Bandcamp/Plus a bunch of other stuff including Peertube. As a creator, Peertube is nice, but yea, using it as a full time video watching platform just isn't viable rn unfortunately.
NewPipe is awful for Peertube. You have to add AND SEARCH every single instance manually. It's only useful if there is a creator on a specific instance that you specifically want to watch.
An change your email to protonmail or tutamail. Starve those gmails, outlooks, iCloud’s and etc
Thank you, this covers everything I could have thought of!
Looks like Loops isn't accepting new users at the moment. Hopefully that'll open up again soon.
Is there only one website?
At this moment, yes! I'll operate an instance as soon as the code is public.
Wouldn't Matrix be a better alternative to Signal, since it doesn't need a number? Maybe it has a too difficult learning curve to the average user, though
Matrix isn't fediverse though. It is Federated but uses its own protocol
Well, Signal isn't federated either, and doesn't have a fediverse-like technology like Matrix does...
The best number-free protocol is SimpleX atm
Facebook Marketplace - > Craigslist
No, that's anti-libre software.
Or just go to rednote instead
I can not find its libre software licence text file.
Sure, just give your data to China and get their ads, who cares.
Rednote doesn't have ads
Signal isn't federated [1][2][3.1]; it's decentralized [1][2][3.2]. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it's centralized.
References
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
- This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
- "Signal (software)". Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software).
- ¶"Architecture". ¶"Servers".
Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal's messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users' public keys. […]
- ¶"Architecture". ¶"Servers".
- "Reflections: The ecosystem is moving". moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z. https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/.
- ¶5. to ¶"Stuck in time". ¶3-6
One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing.
- ¶"Stuck in time". "Federation and control". ¶6.
An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do.
- ¶5. to ¶"Stuck in time". ¶3-6
but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.
The fact that we have a telephone system that works with separate providers contradicts this sentiment. If I want to pick up the phone and talk to my cousin's puppy in New Zealand, I can do that without creating an account on his provider's service.
I don't understand why we've forgotten this as a society. Yes, it was difficult to upgrade the phone systems over the past century, but it's worth it in my opinion. I really wish we'd start seeing government regulation that says "you should be able to talk to someone on a service without having to create an account on said service." I thought the DMA would do this, but sadly, Whatsapp still requires an account to talk to people using that service. Very disappointing.
How is the puppy?
As for interoperability between services… Monetization of surveillance data. The social media companies are Ad companies, and they make their money surveilling people and selling access. It’s harder to build an accurate model of a person when only pieces of data is available, and they need to have more data then the other Ad tech companies they’re competing with.
Yeah. I love Signal but it doesn't belong in that list. Dansup (creator of loops and pixelfed) is apparently working on "Sup" that will be a decentralized alternative to whatsapp.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good
My comment wasn't protesting the use of Signal; it was rather clarifying the misinformation in OP's post — ie misinformation that Signal is a federated service.
Signal is hostile to third party clients like Molly.im as well
That's not true. Moxie only had a problem with a fork called "LibreSignal" because it was using their name. He didn't want users to confuse the apps.
it’s decentralized
No it’s not. From literally your own comment:
Signal relies on centralized servers
For a decentralized messenger use https://delta.chat
it’s decentralized
No it’s not. From literally your own comment:
Signal relies on centralized servers
I was using "decentralized" to mean that there isn't centralized control over ownership of the service in general — eg anyone can spin up their own server (impractical, imo, pushing it more towards being centralized) and people can use it (making it decentralized, imo (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do think my usage of the term is appropriate in this way.)), but people who use that server can only communicate with that server (making it not federated). But yes it could still be said to be centralized in that it operates on a client-server model [1].
This is more an argument of definitions, though. I'm not trying to claim anything in bad faith.
References
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
- This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
For the avid readers out there, bookwyrm is a fantastic alternative to goodreads.
Folks should also check out neodb.social . it's good reads, letterboxd, and steam reviews all in one.
I've been looking for something to track my physical book, music, and game collections. An instance of this might work nicely. Thanks!
Yes it’s excellent! Also noting for those that aren’t aware: Goodreads is owned by Amazon.
It could be but I find the android app buggy (this month I've been using bookwyrm, GR, Open Reads, and The Story Graph to compare them all and still nothing is as smooth as GR. Plus bookwyrm has no apple app. I love where Bookwyrm is going but right now the switch is not the best
Signal is not Fediverse! Element/Matrix is!
Absolutely, signal isn't federated, but I don't want my messaging app to be federated. I want my social media to be federated. Lemmy is good because it's open. Signal is good because it's shut.
That’s your preference and there’s nothing wrong with it. Doesn’t make Signal a Fediverse alternative. Matrix fits that use case.
I prefer my messaging to be federated for the same reason I don’t want my other services depending on the benevolence of a single actor. But that’s me.
Don't use Matrix the devs knew about sidechannel vulnerabilities and ignored them for years. This is peak negligence and should immediately disqualify you from touching anything security related.
the author literally picked random projects from github tagged as matrix, without considering their prevalence or whether they are actually maintained etc.
if you actually look at % of impacted clients, it’s tiny.
meanwhile, it is very unclear that any sidechannel attack on a libolm based client is practical over the network (which is why we didn’t fix this years ago). After all, the limited primitives are commented on in the readme and https://github.com/matrix-org/olm/issues/3 since day 1.
From your link.
Element/matrix aren't part of the fediverse, either. It doesn't speak AP.
Are we claiming now that Activity Pub is the only protocol that we can use for the fediverse? I think XMPP is roughly 30 years old at this point, and I'm pretty sure Activity Pub is much younger than that. I could be wrong though.
But regardless, I don't see why Activity Pub has to be the only protocol we accept to be considered a part of the fediverse. It's not even like different AP implementations talk to each other all that well. My understanding is that Mastodon doesn't federate that well with Lemmy, and I haven't seen Loops or Pixelfed on Lemmy yet either.
I'd be happy to be corrected on any of this though, I haven't looked too closely into exactly how AP works or how it's supposed to interoperate with different applications.
I'd like to argue that using AP is an inconsistent rule for membership. For example, Diaspora has been considered to be part of the fediverse from early on, but it doesn't use AP.
I don't really know where to draw the line. AP simply isn't suitable for some applications, but it makes sense to include it for branding
Unfortunately, the switch from YouTube to PeerTube has not worked for me so far. I can't find a decent instance (not full of right-wing/conspiracy content) with interesting stuff that also allows me to make an account.
Have a look here for potential instances: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15816115 and also check these links out for channels to follow: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15810205 / https://peertube.wtf/home
Yes finding the right instance on peertube is a nightmare — and also the general lack of quality content, or subtitling, which makes it as good as useless for deaf people like me.
Yeah, it is already hard to find reasons to use it for the average user, so people with disabilities (deafness, blindness,intellectual etc.) probably even have reasons to NOT use them (no subtitles, each instance might have different elements or structure that might be a nightmare for screen readers, it might be too complex for some people, etc.).
Ah. I see...
I don’t get the joke
Don't worry, your successor isn't offering anything big. You'll still be around for many more days to come.
Unpopular Opinion Lemmy and PeerTube logo look ugly.
Lemmy is fine, just change the color of background.
Peertube is... well... needs improvement...
They're horrible
Unpopular opinion: your opinion is not unpopular at all.
I think it's just the colours for the peertube one. I like that it's three individual play icons to signify the federation aspect, but the colours are just dull.
Yeah it’s an easy fix to update the colors, logo shape can remain.
I like the Lemmy one, but peertubes logo looks like it's gonna stab my eyeballs in my sleep
The colors in the peertube logo are pretty hideous.
The Lemmy logo always looks so sad or angry to me. Wished he could look happier.
The only ones on the right I really like are signal and friendica. (I had never seen the friendica logo before. This is really well done whoever designed that. Good job.)
All the big guys of course can afford graphic design teams and marketing/PR research.
The notable exception for me is mastodon. While I’m still not a big fan of that logo either, it certainly looks better than the X logo. I’m guessing Musk DOGE’d his design teams in favor of some yes-men.
What does signal have to do with anything?
The post is really about abandoning the tech oligarchy more than specifically using federated technology.
technically nothing but it serves as a privacy respecting alternative to meta/google controlled messengers.
things like mastodon and pixelfed are rather easy to wrap your head around and replace their big tech counterparts with if you are the average user.
there is no real replacement for an instant messaging/sms like experience. matrix is at the moment still a bit too complicated to get into if you have come to expect a workflow like: download an app -> write your phone contacts a message.
so although it is not federated it is the best we have got at the moment in my opinion
I get that but the image is referring to it as part of the "fediverse" which it is not as it doesn't use ActivityPub.
There's also SimpleX, though it's much less popular. (not like Signal is used everywhere though, it's just a matter of what you switch your group to.)
A federated social fitness app(like Strava) would be cool
Hi, I think too many people are focusing too much on the type of software included in this chart. I don't think the goal of the person that created the chart was to create the ultimate guide to move to the Fediverse or FOSS apps with all the options available for them. I believe it prioritizes simplicity, and it's clearly directed towards people unaware that these alternatives exist.
Most people I know don't even know what the Fediverse is, and I think this initiative is for them.
I know that debating which FOSS/Fedi apps are the best is a big matter of concern for people that are already aware of the problems some platform have. But focusing too much on this debate not only creates more division among supporters of FOSS/Fedi, but it is also drawing attention from the main point: Bringing more people to the Fediverse.
Thank you. Please jump in faster with a tldr of this on other posts like this.
Thank you for this! Bookmarked this post, downloaded the image, sent it to all my friends. Love you!
Yeah. This guide is going to make some rounds in my peer group. I've got a lot of dissatisfied friends who just need an easy guide to remind them what to try. Very cool!
Agreed!
Feel like Matrix or Email would have made more sense as a federated service for communication, but get Signal is a lot more well known.
why signal?
Because atm is the most adopted alternative but isn't any better then SimpleX.
but it is not federated. that would be matrix
A LinkedIn alternative, anyone?
But will it have the lunatics and toxic positivity?
Mastodon seems to be filling this niche (professional networking and job seeking) at the moment. I'm curious if something more targeted is emerging yet as well.
Good to hear. Just yesterday I decided to remove my LinkedIn account!
Anyone on Loops? I tried signing up a few days ago, but the sign up page wasn't working. Now the landing page says they aren't accepting new users.
It took a day before I got my activation email. There was no indication on the website it was gonna take that long, but I'm guessing it's early enough that it might still require manual approval.
That said it's still very much a ghost town
Friendly reminder that peertube can expose your IP address.
To stop it, disable "Help share videos being played" in your options
Could the software selection be more diverse? There's also MBin/Piefed, and Misskey/Sharkey/Firefish/Akkoma/Iceshrimp. Just a suggestion tho. (obviously they can't all fit in the image, but it would be nice to see an alternative to popular software like lemmy/mastodon.)
PS: Signal is not federated at all, it's centralized. It should either be replaced with SimpleX or matrix/Jabber.
Could the software selection be more diverse?
Not if you want people to actually consider switching instead of feeling overwhelmed and confused.
If only there was a website that helps you choose, instead of inclining users to just use lemmy and only lemmy.world anyway. (also with mastodon and mastodon.social).
Overall i think more software choices are great but you are right in that it could repel users :/
Signal is better than WA tho.
True, i'll take it over wa any day.
This should promote matrix, not signal
Unfortunately, I don't know a single person who uses Friendica, and that is also, unfortunately, self-defeating because there's no way I could convince them to go without more than just me using it.
Apparently it makes a good RSS feed aggregator if nothing else.
And that makes it a Facebook replacement how? Facebook is terrible and the only reason I ever go there is to check in on people I know. I don’t understand Friendica at all. I can get all the social interaction I need from Mastodon, BlueSky and Lemmy if my goal isn’t people I know and just like minded people.
Try Matrix or XMPP instead of signal
I miss Jabber so much. There was a brief time where my one XMPP client and an easy to install server could let me chat with everyone I knew, whether they were on ICQ, Y!, gchat, MSN, IRC, or AIM. We fucking HAD interoperability.
Anyone know if loops has a good app out, or if there's one in the works thats coming out soon?
The app is really bare bones. It's also not federated (yet, but use a product for what it is right now, not what it promises to be).
Has potential but also dansup keeps running head-first into controversial takes.
My favourite Dansup line is " It's coming this weekend" not sure when this weekend is supposed to come around tho.
From what I've seen on the loops discord he's about to open source the app and self hosted backend real soon, he's been reaching out for people to set up and test out the server code.
Same with federation, that's not far away, I think he wants to test how the different instances connect to each other first before the wider federation.
He's finally starting to look for coders to help him with the backend and app tho, so that's a good start.
Oh, i see. Still interesting, thanks for the info
The app worked for me when I first downloaded it but hasn't since
Here’s a link you can use to share this post with your friends. The default share link makes you have to click to see the picture and many users will be confused and not click it.
Facebook messenger to sup fediverse messages platform
thanks for the pic, it's good to share with friends who are curious!
isn't that just every day?
Snubbing bluesky is a great way to get people to not take you seriously. When you're making a recruitment thing like this you need to remember you're trying to draw in people who don't fully agree with you.
Bluesky isn't federated as much as they pretend to be and say "they're working on it"
It's just another corporate social platform that will fall into the same thing
:(