Amazon tech workers leaving for other jobs in response to return to office mandate
Amazon tech workers leaving for other jobs in response to return to office mandate
Now they can replace them without paying unemployment and pay the new workers a lower wage. This is what they wanted to happen. Mega corporations are a problem we need to solve as a society.
Quality programmers are a finite resource. Amazon chewed through the entire unskilled labor market with their warehouses and then struggled to find employees to meet their labor needs. If they try the same stunt with skilled labor they're in for a very rude awakening. They'll be able to find people, but only for well above market rates. They're highly likely to find in the long run it would have been much cheaper to hang onto the people they already had.
The whole problem with companies like Amazon is that hardly anyone in charge of them seems to care about long term sustainability. They all just invest enough effort to squeeze out some short term profits, earn their bonuses and then leave for another company to do it all again. Nobody is interested in sustainability because there is no incentive to. They're playing hot potato with the collapse of the company.
An awakening would mean they would analyze and understand the situation. They won’t. Amazon has and probably always had a bullish “my way or the highway” attitude - ask people what they think, pretend you care, then ignore everything they might say. Upper managers make decisions uniquely based off costs and short term vision, and are never held accountable for the consequences. I worked there for years and you really can’t imagine how bad the work culture is there, whatever you have in mind is worse in reality
Problem is for a company like Amazon, even if the brain drain will result in obviously inferior customer experience, it could take years before that happens and for it to be recognized and for the business results suffer for it. In the meantime, bigger margins and restricted stock matures and they can get their money now.
Particularly with business clients, like AWS customers, it will take a huge amount of obvious screwups before those clients are willing to undertake the active effort of leaving.
yeah, the only problem is that this results in the best talent leaving, you're stuck with people who have nowhere else to go. it's one of those short-term profits kinda things, which is why Wall St loves it so much.
They have a name for it: Dead Sea Effect.
I thought the same. Interesting strategy cutting the people who are good enough to get another job.
As long as it looks good on paper, somebody in higher management is getting a bonus for this.
This isn't what they want to happen. They know it will happen, but this isn't the goal or objective.
Amazon is a big boy company, if they want to cut staff, they'll cut staff. The problem with cutting staff this way, is that they don't get to decide who they're cutting. They don't want to cut talented employees at random, they want to pick the low performers and let them go. This is kind of the opposite of that.
The higher skilled the employee is, the more likely they are to have been hired remote, and to feel they can find another job also. That means they're effectively shooting themselves in the foot and getting rid of some of their talented employees for the benefit of bringing people into the office.
There has been a swing in the business opinion that work from home isn't as efficient. This is basically the higher-ups falling in line with that opinion.
I think they do actually want to cut the high skilled talent. High skill means high pay, and now that they've achieved market dominance in pretty much every industry they've stuck their penis into they don't need talent. Lower skilled, and therefore lower paid, employees can do just good enough to keep everything from burning down just long enough for the C-suite to get their bonuses and cash out. After that, who cares, they're on to their next grift.
To add to what others have replied, Amazon have an institutional belief that everyone who makes it through the Loop is better than 50% of existing staff.
It could be post-hoc rationalising of back-loaded share vesting, hire-to-fire, and their other many practices, but that's the position. With that kind of thinking, it makes this behaviour, including it's consequences, a no-brainer win:win to them.
5 day RTO is a stealth layoff. This is a feature, not a bug.
Yep this has been the modus operandi for businesses who want to reduce workforce without having to pay for layoffs.
Like many companies, they overhired in the last 4 years. Some of these people are due years of severance (my offer listed 2months for every year after 1 year), not to mention the vested stocks and other bonuses granted during this insane hot hire period.
So how do you remove people not loyal to the company? The most hated mandate ever. Amazon is a company that doesn’t need people in the office. This is nothing more than screwing people over.
Quiet firing, if you will.
If Amazon don’t think that remote work is productive, then they don’t think they’re losing anything. I don’t even know how “stealth” this is at all. They must believe that those individuals could be productive, because they are trying to keep them working in office. I’m not sure why anyone thinks a company like Amazon would try to be “stealth” about a layoff anyway. They don’t need to.
I am pretty sure working from home has proven to be more productive, so I think other factors are at play here. I worry that returning to the office might be the only way to keep the capitalists from trying to send our jobs over to poorer nations. If the tapeworms think the job needs to be done face to face then it is much hardet to send those jobs to India or S. America.
Amazing.
They order people to work in different offices than before, far away from before, or in offices that did not even exist before. They order people to work in offices who have only worked at home before.
And they call it "return", and everybody seems to accept the audacity.
Nobody laughs out loud into their faces and calls them the dirty liars that they are.
Because people who suck their tits need their milk.
We should refer to this instead as Go To Faraway Office
Yeah this attrition is expected by Amazon. IBM and others did this earlier. If enough people choose to RTO they will do “real” layoffs and get a pat on the back in the news for not letting as many people go as they would have had to before. Optics I guess. IIRC this is the second round for Amazon.
Some are saying companies are doing this to keep their property values up but I think that’s only one facet. What I don’t see being called out often is companies doing this are hiring replacements overseas in tax havens and/or where they can pay less for talent. Real kicker is, those hires wind up being remote anyway to the anchor offices.
Now this is a good point. During the time of remote work, everything became organized around it. In fact my employer just closed the local office I belong to, because everyone is remote and it just isn’t getting used. If they suddenly decided on RTO and asked me to work at an office 60 miles away that would not be a “return” nor practical in any way. I’m sure Amazon know this but are just saying “oh well,” because really they can’t do kick to solve it. It’s going to be a painful transition but I guess they’ve decided they are ready.
Just as planned - Amazon Execs who aren't planning to rehire them anyway.
They do this shit to cull you.
It's sort of a strange approach, because this will leave you with the workers who can't find employment elsewhere.
By the time that negative effect kicks in, the execs already cashed in their bonuses and are on their way out of the sinking ship
Executives do not see workers as people with skillsets. They're numbers on a spreadsheet. And having ten highly paid workers quit "voluntarily" makes the numbers do good things.
Actually, they're not even numbers on a spreadsheet. They're data points in a graph. Executives don't have time to understand numbers, let alone people.
That was probably the intent. It works as a soft layoff. Do something wildly unpopular, knowing that a bunch of employees will quit. The ones left will pick up the slack, because obviously if they had anywhere else to go they would’ve left with the first group.
Seems like a great way to lose all your talented employees
Which is why everyone who thinks they’re clever to call this a “soft layoff” is not as clever as they think. Amazon isn’t shy about doing layoffs and dismissing low performers. An unpopular decision like this will frequently eject the most capable employees because they are the ones who can most easily find other work. Meanwhile the dead weight employees stick around because they know they can’t find other arrangements as good. It’s a dumb way to reduce staff, and Amazon aren’t dumb.
No, I think we take Amazon at their word on this one. They are not just fucking around to try to shake 20% of their workforce loose. They genuinely don’t want to do remote anymore.
Why do you think a company like them would do a soft layoff, instead of just picking the low performers they think they should lay off and just dismissing them? What do they gain by leaving it up to chance and the decisions of employees? It could be a lot more disruptive that way, with no control over who leaves or when. If you’re going to say it’s all to save a buck by not paying severance, I’m not convinced that the lack of control and having to deal with the random effects is remotely worth it.
I really do wonder if Amazon will run out of people willing to work for them someday. Their approach assumes there is an infinite supply of workers to burn through. Given everything I’ve witnessed from the company, I’d never work there. Do they at some point poison the labor pool against them?
We're constantly producing new people that don't know any better
This is why employers are ageist. They want naive employees.
When I joined Amazon, I was told that for some roles in the US Amazon received more applications than corporate employees worldwide - so I assume 1M+.
That number has probably reduced significantly, given we've now had two rounds of RTO. I know some recruiters are really struggling to find external candidates to join, and rightly so, but I don't doubt that Amazon can find someone to fill these roles, or can find someone outside of North America or Europe to take that role.
The FAANG acronym was the worst thing to happen to tech, because people will flock to Amazon to say "I worked for FAANG". Prestige is a powerful thing to some, and they'll deal with some insane shit for the clout that comes from being here.
(FWIW, I've been at Amazon as a software engineer for close to four years now, and I've noticed zero improvement in opportunities afforded to me)
The FAANG acronym was the worst thing to happen to tech, because people will flock to Amazon to say “I worked for FAANG”. Prestige is a powerful thing to some, and they’ll deal with some insane shit for the clout that comes from being here.
The problem is that the clout boost is real. I never worked for a FAANG/MANGA company, but just having one relatively well-known company on my resume opened up options I never would have had. All my interviewers would mention it, even though it was almost 20 years ago.
"FAANG" is interesting because it was initially only used to represent high-growth stocks that were leaders in their respective fields. It was originally just "FANG" - Apple was added later.
At some point, it changed to mean the best tech companies to work at. I'm not sure I agree with the list, though. I'd swap Netflix for Microsoft (TC is lower but it's a more prestigious company and work-life balance is better), and I'd swap Amazon for another company. Not sure. TSMC, Nvidia, or AMD maybe?
You could also think this applies to all corporations in some degree. But no, there's a fresh batch of bright eyed optimistic people out of school every year.
You could also think this applies to all corporations in some degree. But no, there's a fresh batch of
bright eyed optimistic people out of schoolpeople desperate to not be homeless or starve every year.And if it happens : Rebrand-Time!!
Another company I had contact with did a few layoffs. Afterwards the recruitment department had a lot more issues finding people. Experienced people would ask a premium because of that company's reputation in the industry and the experienced people would usually stay a short time and leave. The other option was hiring fresh graduates and put effort in training them.
Also a sea of people looking to put in a respectable time at a recognizable employer to dress up their resume.
I saw an article a year or two back that talked about this very thing. It was actually management people at Amazon saying that they predicted they would be "out of employees" before the end of this decade.
They were talking about warehouse workers, not corporate employees.
Iirc, didn't the article say that was one of many hypothetical scenarios they try to plan accordingly for? Like you said, it's been awhile since it came out, so I could easily be wrong. I imagine it won't be a problem any time soon, though. There are always desperate people, and simply changing policy to allow rehiring people that had previously been fired/quit would open eligible candidate pools back up.
Or, y'know, they could just make working there not be miserable.
I never understood why anyone works for them at all. And I’m not even talking about warehouse workers. I’m talking about the tech staff. Amazon is known as a cutthroat workplace that drives people like a hammer drives nails. I would never choose to go there.
FAANG looks good on the resume so people go there with intention to eventually leave for another company willing to pay for FAANG experience. unless you work in a very focused team (e. g Occulus) youre better off jumping companies for higher pay.
if you go to tech career fairs, especially in the silicon valley, the biggest example of this is working for Cisco. they have huge turnover and youre only going to work there to have Cisco on your resume because of how ubiquitous they are at networking for companies.
If it's anything like my work and their RTO a few things.
- hR is well aware of attrition rates and I bet they're through the roof
- Any new hires are probably not the best or brightest they could expect to hire
So expect quality at Amazon to decline. It may not be outwardly visible but mark my words for those that are still there it will devolve into a chaotic shit show of overworked employees that are left backfilling work for those who left and the incompetence that came in.
expect quality at Amazon to decline.
They'll have to dig a new basement for it to get any lower.
I canceled my Prime membership earlier this year because of that decline in quality. I wish everyone could, but thanks to the loss of retail throughout the country many can't afford not to have it.
My relatively poor experience with Prime I attribute to deliberate bad choices rather than lack of workers. It probably doesn't help to be sure, but even with the most awesome staff, I think Prime was going to suck no matter what. The whole economy is particularly "screw the customers over, get us money now, no need to attract or retain customers now"
Yeah. The rise of a monopoly until it starts to enshitify is interesting to watch eh? Reminds me of Walmart in the physical space. All the local options got pushed out and everyone’s quality was forced to drop due to their economic strong arming.
I know some tech workers who really want to return to office full time along with everyone else. They miss the old way. It’s not everyone, and it’s definitely not me, but it’s a legitimate position. I guess now they know where they can go.
I honestly don't see an issue with the people going back to the office because they want to work from there. I just want others to stop trying to force me to do the same.
This sort of thing seems to have always been a plague with a set of the extroverted sort. They seem to feel the whole world should for whatever reason cater to what makes them happy and us introverted types that do not like the social activities that they do should be made to partake anyway. For our own good. Yet the world is ending when those same extroverted people have to spend a large chunk of time alone or simply being quiet.
The older I get the less patience I have for those sorts of games. Which could become an issue for me professionally I suppose.
Exactly, which is why I really like my current setup, which is 2x in office, 3x WFH. I think being in-person has advantages, but I also feel much more productive when I WFH because I don't have all of the little interactions at the office (i.e. coworker wanting to get coffee together, quick question from a team member about something irrelevant, etc). I get into better flow at home, but being available is also important for others on the team.
Honestly, I would hesitate to take a full-remote position, but I am definitely not interested in full-on-prem either. I need at least 1-2 days at home to get actual work done, ideally 3.
I know some people like this too.
To be fair, a nontrivial number of them are middle/upper management, but it's not the entirety of the people I know who want this.
The answer isn't work-from-home, nor is it return-to-office. The answer is: give people a choice.
If you want to work from home, cool, we don't need to maintain your cubicle, and/or, we can hire more people without needing more office space. If you want to return to office, cool, your space is waiting for you.
A few will retain the ability to switch back and forth, but the majority of people I've talked to about it, either want office or home exclusively. Very few want hybrid.
I'm one that prefers being in the office. My productivity goes to shit when I'm at home because there's too much other stuff I can do. I also like talking to my coworkers face to face just in general because people are usually more empathetic in person. That being said I don't think it should be forced on anyone if it's not necessary to work in the office. The rest of my team works from home without issue as far as I can tell. We are fortunate in that our employer does not have an issue with WFH.
Here’s the problem though. When everybody is allowed to choose what they want, people who prefer remote get remote. And people who prefer the office get a ghost town. So by definition, personal choice precludes one group from having access to the thing they would choose.
People who want to work in the office want to work with other people. It’s not just about having a desk in a high rise. People learn from other people and are energized by being around them. There are efficiencies to being able to talk without zoom lag and all. Someone else characterized this as extroverted people and their annoying needs. But I think it’s more than that. Working with others in person certainly has real benefits.
Remote work means no one gets those, ever.
I’m a remote guy myself and hope never to go back. But I can see another side to it.
Hey I can relate. I miss the office too. I was far more productive there and the cooperation and mental space was better there too. But this is a new world we live in, and if you want me to drive to an office, you had better be ready to pay me a fair salary for it.
Oh, you won't? Guess I'll go elsewhere.
Amazon tech workers are well paid. What I find is the real cost of in-office is the commute time. I’m almost an hour away door-to-door and while I always enjoy seeing people in person, and our office is quite nice, I just can’t convince myself that it’s worth two hours a day of wasted time, plus the costs. I pay $12 in train tickets any day I go in.
I love going to the office. I started renting a place nearby to do just that.
But I don't want my coworkers to be forced to show up. That's silly.
My company announced RTO the same day Amazon did. The Union is up in arms, but honestly the powers that be are handling it pretty well. My boss is happily going to the office for a couple of days a week. She's a million miles from enforcing it on us though. Exceptions are already in place for people like me (3 hour TGV ride from the nearest office) and even a few people who just said "I really don't want to".
I'm sure a few people will leave and not be replaced, but perhaps they were just dead weight anyway. I couple that I know about definitely are.
I personally prefer to work in the office, but when there's no-one else on it. When offices started opening up again, going to the office and having the floor to myself was fantastic. It's felt like in my college years studying late in the library. I had all the resources I needed and there were no chit-chat in the background or people coming in to talk to me.
I would guess the principal reason here is to socialize, and there's probably other solutions to this. I would also guess that for some the socializing during the day doesn't havehave to be with the same company's coworkers
I can focus a lot better when I'm at the office. I guess part of it is that I'm surrounded by people who are also working. There's too many distractions at home.
Having said that, my employer only requires us to go into the office three days per week, which I think is a good compromise.
I legitimately do not understand how people can spend that much time at home and not go stir crazy. That doesn't mean I want to force people into a situation because of my preferences, but gaddamn, having no context switch between work and home feels way more dystopian to me.
The context switch is what you make it. My switch is a daily ritual whereby I sit in a specific place and read for an hour with a little background music and a drink (if so inclined). That symbolically "closes the door" to the office, even though my flat isn't big enough for separate work/rest spaces.
If you have an extra bedroom that you can use exclusively as an office, it's pretty great. When you're in your office, that's "work", and the rest of your house is "not work".
RTO = free layoffs
That and executive ass covering, a way to avoid admitting to shareholders that they wasted their money on useless commercial real estate.
It's also shooting themselves in the foot. The first people to leave aren't going to be the clock punchers, it will be the best and brightest who can easily find other jobs.
That's a feature, not a bug.
The best and brightest will challenge leadership. The shitty barely competent value engineer will say yes until they fuck up so bad they get promoted.
That might've been the plan all along.
Wow, it seems like the return-to-office mandate is causing quite the shake-up! Totally get why folks are jumping ship - flexibility has become such a big deal, especially after getting used to working from home. I read that 65% of workers now say they'd consider quitting if they couldn't work remotely! It's all about finding that work-life balance in a job that respects our needs. Hang in there, tech friends—plenty of companies out there understand the power of flexibility and trust!
What really gets to me is that during those two pandemic years the tech industry didn't stop because, wait for it... everybody was working remote, and now they want to gasslight everyone into RTO with a bunch of bullshit arguments because it's better?
That's a sell cue, for any shareholders reading along.
Nah, the shareholders love this shit.
I mean, most of them. Please ignore my piles of AMZN.
Why'd you have to post a pic of that dead-eyed muppet though?
I mean, realistically it'll juice the stock in the short term until things catch up to them in 6 to 12 months.
To literally no one’s surprise, least of all the leadership at Amazon. No unemployment when you quit.
The problem being that the ones moving on to other jobs are the actual talent. Unlike a targeted layoff, this leaves Amazon with the employees no one else wanted.
That’s assuming the real talent wasn’t secretly given exception to this. And in any case, what’s important isn’t having the best talent, it’s making the numbers look better for end of year. Amazon has become too big to fail, they don’t need top talent to deliver a superior customer experience. Anyone reliant on cloud offerings is stuck. Employees get laid off, prices go up, product gets worse, who cares. People are paying. Thats the stage of capitalism they’re in.
I am glad this is happening. Fuck these people. Fuck em' hard.
These tech workers are not Bezos. They are just developers and technical people that thought they had a good job with competitive salaries. It sucks they have to uproot their lives because management is being shitty.
They may work for a company without ethics, but that's kind of the corporate landscape these days.
Let me reword what I wrote since I think I wasn't clear.
When I said I am glad this is happening, I mean I am glad that the workers are standing up to Amazon by quitting and heading to a different company. And by 'fuck em'' I was referring to Amazon and other employers who want undue influence on the lives of their employees.
I am 100% on the side of the workers here. Always have and always will be.
I'm not a big fan of overpaid tech workers either. Upper middle class SDE tech bros are not as bad as upper upper class tech CEOs, but that doesn't mean they're good.
Common theory l, that I have heard is that if business owns their office space then it's value is inherently tied to profit margins. If office goes unused, value will drop, which affect bottom line, which affects boards willingness to pay out large CEO bonuses. So getting employees back into the office becomes vital for the leadership.
IMO it's worse than this. It's likely to do with Seattle real estate only, because Amazon has their HQ in Seattle, most of the STeam is in Seattle, and it's where most of the big decisions are focused. There is an acronym that has existed at Amazon for decades, NEWS (Not Everyone Works in Seattle). Sadly, like many Amazonian things, they're not really a thing any more...
Even if they don't own it, there is cost associated with downsizing an office. Selling off furniture is impossible at the moment. Leases are down. Subletting is much harder. But there places are, paying plant, hvac and cleaning, maintenance on virtually unused office space.
Most places just need a conference room, some temp offices and a bathroom.
Yeah but bringing people back is still more expensive because it means more maintenance, more cleaning, and in the case of Amazon paying more for the office perks.
I'm sure at some point, somewhere, someone forced people to rto because it was better for their real estate investment....but I just have not been able to make sense of the claims that this is driving factor.
I hope a significant number of them get new jobs and quiet quit to get that double paycheck for as long as they can.
I hope so too. Although the IT job market isn't great right now, so I doubt the departures will reach a critical mass.
sounds cool i am unemployed and fucked
Burn, baby, burn!
Google, Microsoft, hell even Netflix and Capital One, will be bending over backwards for this tech talent.
Look at that Amazon east coast HQ in Virginia, just down the road from Capital One's HQ. One of AWS's biggest customers will bendfit from this.Stupid, stupid Amazon. How did they not see this coming? It's been a trend lately.
They did see it coming, this was the goal.
yup. how is that not obvious to anyone is beyond me... some of those workers have contracts that would require amazon paying severance in case they would just fire them like so many other companies do. better make them leave on their own.
that’s actually what those pieces of dump wanted lol