This is an experiment I performed out of curiosity, and I have a few big disclaimers at the bottom. Basically, I've seen a lot of comments recently about one app or another not displaying something right. Lemmy has been around for a while now and can no longer be considered an experimental platform.
Lemmy and the apps that people use to access the platform have become an important part of people’s lives. Whether you are checking the app weekly or daily, and whether you use it to stay up on the news or to stay connected to your hobby, it’s important that it works. I hope that this helps people to see the extent of the challenge, and encourages developers to improve their apps, too.
How I did it
I wanted to investigate objectively how accurately each app displays text of posts and comments using the standard Lemmy markdown. Markdown is a standard part of the Lemmy platform, but not all apps handle it the same. It is basically what gives text useful formatting.
I used the latest release of each app, but did not include pre-releases. I only included apps that have released an update in the last 6 months, which should include most apps in active development. I was unable to test iOS-exclusive apps, so they are not included either. In all, 16 apps met the inclusion criteria.
I also added Eternity, which is in active development, although it has not had a recent update. I was able to include several iOS apps thanks to testing from @[email protected] – Thanks, Jordan! This made for 20 apps that were tested.
Each app was rated in 5 categories: Text, Format, Spoilers, Links, and Images. I chose these mostly based on the wonderful Markdown Guide from @[email protected]ity, which was posted about a year ago in [email protected]ity (here).
I checked whether each app correctly displayed each category, then took the overall average. Each category was weighted equally. Text includes italic, bold, strong, strikethrough, superscript, and subscript. Format includes block quotes, lists, code (block and inline), tables, and dividers. Spoilers includes display of hidden, expandable spoilers. Links includes external links, username links, and community links. Images included embedded images, image references, and inline images.
Thanks to input from others, I also added a test to see if lemmy hyperlinks opened in-app. There was a problem with using the SFFA Community Guide that caused some apps to be essentially penalized twice because there was formatting inside formatting, so I created this TEST POST to more clearly and fairly measure each app.
In each case, I checked whether the display was correct based on the rules for Lemmy Markdown, and consistent with the author’s intent. In cases where the app recognized the tag correctly but did not display it accurately, that was treated as a fail.
Results
Out of a possible perfect 10, 6 apps displayed all markdown correctly:
Lemmy apps devs work very hard, and invest a lot in the platform. Lemmy is better because they are doing the work that they do. Like, a LOT better. Everyone who uses the platform has to access it through one app or another. Apps are the face of the entire platform. Whether an app is a FOSS passion project, underwritten by a grant, or generating income through sales or ads, no one is getting rich by making their app. It is for the benefit of the community.
This is not meant to be a rating of the quality or functionality of any app. An app may have a high rating here but be missing other features that users want, or users may love an app that has a lower rating. This is just about how well apps handle markdown.
This is pretty unscientific
You’ll see my methodology above. I’m not a scientist. There is probably a much better way to do this, and I probably have biases in terms of how I went about it. I think it’s interesting and probably has some valuable information. If you think it’s interesting, let me know. If you think of a better way, PM me and I’d be happy to share what I have so you don’t have to start from scratch.
My only goal is to help the community
I do think that accurately displaying markdown should be a standard expectation of a finished app. I hope that devs use this as an opportunity to shore up the areas that are lagging, and that they have a set of standards to aim for.
I don’t have any Apple things
Sorry. This is just Android and Web review. If someone would like to see how iOS apps are doing, please reach out and I’ll share how we can work together to include them.
Hey, I'm the Photon dev. I'd like to know which parts Photon incorrectly displayed, so far I only see tables rendering incorrectly. I'll have this fixed soon.
Holy shit, Photon has gotten this good now? When I tried it a few months back it felt like just yet another Lemmy client. Now it feels so smooth and polished. Works great on mobile even. Thanks for making this!
Hey, the admin of slrpnk.net has been thinking of making Photon the default frontend but updates to it sometimes cause breaking issues? Any chance you could get into contact with them so it can become the default in a way that updates wont break it?
I'm not sure #heading is valid markdown (see, eg, Daring Fireball's "original" syntax page) ... and I've never seen it. I've always understood that the space was necessary, which I think makes sense for a number of reasons TBH
In doing this I learned that there are "correct" but also "preferred" ways to use markdown. A heading should have a space after the # even though it is correct either way.
##Heading
Heading
These lines may be the same or different in different apps.
That's really interesting. AFAIK Lemmy devs do not have a comprehensive markdown documentation. I thought it was CommonMark plus spoilers and Lemmy links, but it seems like they have other changes as well.
Yes, I didn't go that far down the rabbit hole. I decided to very unscientificly pick five categories that I personally thought were relevant and score those. There are lots of markdown types and situations that are not captured here.
Lemmios - Link opens in app. Everything looks and works great EXCEPT Spoilers.
Mlem - Link opens in browser, not app. Manually went to test post. As with Lemmios, everything looks and works great EXCEPT spoilers.
Remmel - Instant fail. No development in 2 years, unable to even add an instance or an account. Non-starter.
Thunder - Hard to test. Lots of lag for some reason. Link opens in browser, not app. Manually went to test post. That being said, EVERYTHING worked. The lag may have been because I had just linked my account. Testing everything above, then coming back to Thunder, I found it fast and responsive.
Voyager - Link opens in app. EVERYTHING worked. No notes.
So, ranking them:
Voyager - EVERYTHING worked. No notes.
Thunder - Everything worked, but laggy to start with when using a year old account with lots of data. Once it caught up, everything was fine. Would probably be great with a new account.
Lemmios - Link opens in app by default. Spoilers don't work.
Mlem - Link opens in browser by default but is user configurable. Spoilers don't work.
Arctic - A few minor failures.
Avelon - A few more failures than Arctic.
Bean - Hey, it works better than Remmel. Probably abandoned.
I don't understand why there isn't a "markdown library" of some sort that software developers can just use in their app. I haven't looked too deep into this, but it has always seemed to me that every app must individually implement markdown display. Why?
The problem isn't that there are no libraries out there that parse Markdown. There are, in fact, plenty for all different languages. The issue is that every site has its own flavor of it. Lemmy does it one way, GitHub another, and something else does it completely differently yet again.
That said, and as others have mentioned, markdown is not as well standardized and it seems like just about every site renders it differently, so there are a lot of edge cases to handle. Lemmy also has several unique implementations of things, such as spoilers, superscript/subscript, and the ability to tag users/communities without a hyperlink.
In fact, one of the things Thunder failed on (table alignment) is a known bug in the markdown library we use. :-)
Is there a list of what each app failed? It would be nice for the devs to be able to see. I use Mlem, and there is about to be a new release rebuilding it from the ground up. Hopefully it will rate higher once that happens.
Thanks. Interesting how the apps, even those that have lower scores, perform better than a web browser. Using Safari and Firefox (on a laptop) and both open your links in Lemmy.world instead of that thread on my instance. Neither recognize the user as anything other than text.
This is awesome, thank you. I switched from memmy (iOS only) to voyager because it doesn’t display code blocks properly (usually doesn’t even show what’s in them) so reading certain posts or comments about computers or programming was a disaster.
Yes, I used the Markdown Format Guide linked above. For user and community links I used this comment, and for inline images I checked the FOSS icon here.
Minor nit pick, but did you know that Lemmy has actual cross posting functionality?
Either way, interesting study. This is the type of content that I Red er… Lemmy for, so thanks for posting. I use Voyager myself, being an Apollo refugee.
Yeah, cross posting is another quirky Lemmy thing. AFAIK it just generates a new post with the same content, and also maybe varies by app. That could be wrong though: I'm not sure.
AFAIK it just generates a new post with the same content
Yup, that is exactly what it does. So if the original post is edited, none of the changes propagate to any of the crossposts.
In my opinion, crossposts should embed the original post, not simply copy a snapshot of the content at the time the crosspost is made. That's a Lemmy issue though, not an app issue.
Ya I've only been able to cross post on the web UI. I've seen apps like Jerboa and Voyager at least show cross posting correctly, I just wish they made it easier to cross-post in app.
Thunder allows cross-posting! It should follow the web UI implementation (where the body of the new post has a link to the original, plus the original contents in a quote block).
This was over a year ago now Jerboa may well be in a better state now. I can't remember specific bugs but they were frequent and serious enough to frustrate me, a professional software tester, enough to move to a different app.
The above feels wrong but idk if Lemmy has a formal markdown spec. I haven't had time to dig into it. This is what it looks like in Jerboa. If it wasn't 6 AM I'd try to file a big report.
Left this comment in the other thread too, but posting here for visibility:
Quiblr should now have each of the markdown criteria fixed. Huge thanks for the feedback and for all this analysis. Consistent markdown is important for a great and consistent user experience across the lemmy ecosystem
Great! Thank you for the gorgeous app. I really love the style, and I think the personalized feed is brilliant.
On my device, the lemmy hyperlink in the test post is still opening outside the app. I'm not sure how other web apps handle this but it would be the only additional change that would make it a perfect score.
As an aside, I would love to see it as a PWA or standalone app. I don't know if that's on your roadmap but I think it would be neat.
I'm very excited to see a new update from eternity. It's always been a solid app and is likely to be my daily driver again. Right now I'm using raccoon mostly, although I was pretty disappointed to see the low score on markdown
There are a lot of image/gif(?) posts that I haven’t been able to view either on the Memmy (Apple) app or in-browser with either Safari (Apple) or Google Chrome. I imagine it comes down to the file types as well as the lack of native hosting to standardize posts of different media types, but I’m not the techiest person to consult on that. One downside of the fediverse is the lack of standards for file hosting/conversion/displaying to ensure that all media can be accessed regardless of the browser/app (or, alternatively, the lack of an all-encompassing app for all devices [Jerboa sounds like the closest to this to me but it is not available for iOS yet]), as well as the self-funded nature of the instances commonly not having the budget to natively host multimedia content such as videos.
So what's the technological story here? I'm guessing lemmy itself uses a particular markdown parser that could probably be extracted and used in other contexts as it's likely written in rust and should therefore be pretty portable without too much effort.
Are other apps just using whatever markdown parser is convenient to them? Is this something that the lemmy and threadiverse community could converge on? Even the fediverse as a whole where just about every platform other than mastodon supports writing in some for of markdown ... feels like a pandoc like utility could go far.
I'm probably not the person to ask, to be honest. Lemmy as I understand it is the protocol that exchanges the information about posts, etc. The post content is stored and shared as plaintext, but Lemmy also has instructions about how a UI should interpret the text and serve it to the user.
Ideally, the same text should appear consistent across any UI. Obviously, some apps will use different fonts and colors and may interpret the style of an element differently.
Ideally, the same text should appear consistent across any UI. Obviously, some apps will use different fonts and colors and may interpret the style of an element differently.
Oh yea styling isn't the issue here ... it's whether the markdown is correctly interpreted and rendered. AFAIU, lemmy doesn't have any instructions about how to interpret the text, just some standard that they've chosen to use, along with their open source software for doing so (as they've built too clients, the default web UI and Jerboa).