You must design an icon for a save function that can be easily understood by anyone in the future. What does that icon look like to you?
You must design an icon for a save function that can be easily understood by anyone in the future. What does that icon look like to you?
We reached the point (some time ago) where the save icon being a floppy disk makes absolutely no sense to anyone born after a certain time. We could choose a more modern media format and use an icon of that instead, but we would run into the same problem once that media becomes obsolete.
What is a good icon for the function of saving something that can easily be understood by anyone regardless of language or the march of time?
Edit: I know it's not really an answerable question and is hard but the question is what would you come up with if tasks to design an icon. Given the constraints of the question, what are your best shots at coming up with something that fills the requirements and why do you thing it would work?
If the share icon is a box with an up arrow, maybe a box with a down arrow could mean save?
I like it! No need to know the language or anything. Things collect in basins like rain in bowl-shaped rocks so even without our current level of technology it would still have some indication of saving/gathering.
A vault.
Probably something like this. Seems self-explanatory to me at least.
I assumed it's sinister for left turn but then I got confused why L was turning right (is L supposed to be for leave?)
Save and Load (?)
Seems pretty easy...
You need an icon of a paper with text on it, an arrow pointing from the paper down to a larger box.
A recycle bin?
There is no correct icon, the floppy disk is at least popular enough to be used essentially forever
Alternatives would be making an SVG that mocks a HDD, or an open drawer with an arrow pointing in
Untill we move to SSD.
For long term (1000 years) I think an open drawer is best especially with an arrow. It suggests putting something in, loading can be the inverse
So people used to store stuff in physical space like drawers? You mean if they needed something they had to physically go there and get it out of something else? Man, early humans were crazy.
A piggy bank
An AI with a billion samples to draw from might deliver the collective unconsciousness visual you're looking for.
I'm not sure if anybody said it yet, but I think a simple figure embracing something would be pretty universal for a "save" and then delete would be that figure rejecting something by putting his hands up and turning its head.
That is too abstract.
We'll see the problem with this is symbols are inherently contextual to culture
Floppy disk. Fight me.
Agreed. It's the tried and true icon.
It's like on discord, what's the symbol to make a call? An old school telephone handset. People know what it means. It's a universal symbol
People have stopped recognizing it as a disk (which is good because that meaning was always pretty confusing in terms of saving vs loading) it is now the save symbol and will continue to be the save symbol centuries after the last floppy disk has crumbled into ash.
Similarly, the folder icon has now been enshrined as load.
Why is the disk save and the folder load? It's completely fucking arbitrary, both worked just as well for each context. But someone somewhere (probably in the MSFT internationalization and standards team tbh) made that choice once and thus it is that forever.
Yeah there is no reason at this point to change it as we just teach people that the floppy disk means save. I was wondering if we could come up with something that the user, at a glance, would generally identify as saving. What would that glyph look like. In other words, the arbitrary and established icon is what it is but with hindsight and thinking ahead what would be a better icon we could design. One that would convey "save" to the most people the first time they see it.
That's a fair answer. There is nothing saying the floppy disk can't work. By sticking with a symbol that has no actual bearing on function (from the perspective of the future people) you've abstracted the concept of saving away from natural language. However, you still place a computational burden on those future people/aliens/whatever where they need to be taught what that icon means.
How are there so many people ITT who genuinely don't even understand what OP is asking and are arguing about something else completely that they thought up in their head like whether we should do away with the floppy icon because it confuses people now or if their youngsters know what a floppy is or if they do or if there's a better icon to us now that can represent saving.
None of those are anything to do with OP really.
What OP is asking is if in 10000 years the next human civilization after our collapse that has no concept of computers and probably no electricity or industry nor potentially any grasp on our language or alphabet stumbles upon a functioning computer from our civilization, how do we tell them which button is the save button, when all shared symbolic context has been lost?
Consider the same question but for radioactive waste, how do we ward off potential future pre-industrial human civilizations from our nuclear waste sites to stop them dying to radiation poisoning for possibly tens of thousands of years until they develop an understanding of radiation and the equipment to measure it? Well, something like this maybe:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warning_messages
Though maybe given this thread, we should instead be considering how to convey very simple abstract questions to the pre-industrial people on lemmy.world instead, especially when it appears they have only a rudimentary, GPT2-esque grasp on language.
This is not a place of honor, no honored dead is interred here.
I am also very perplexed by the responses in this whole thread. These are very basic drills that are also done in design based classes. It’s just a thought experiment.
I was gonna fight you because "or if there's a better icon to us now that can represent saving." Is a reasonable interpretation of what OP said.
But then I continued to read more comments and wow people just like... Explaining the floppy disk is wild.
k
What are you doing when you save something? You’re keeping it in its current state, held in stasis, to be retrieved later. Maybe using freezing imagery (like a snowflake) could get that concept across, and it would retain its meaning over time.
Another way to think of saving is storage - putting something in a convenient location for later access. A safe might be a useful image, but it implies security. Other types of storage devices seem too likely to change with time. Maybe a pocket? If there was a way to graphically represent putting something in your pocket that would be a fairly universal and durable image.
Your second sentence makes me think an equal sign would be appropriate.
It's a floppy disk. Which is the universal icon for saving, the same way a red light is a universal symbol for "stop".
You underestimate the power of arbitrary symbols. Welcome to all of human semiotics.
No I get that but I'm asking that given what we know about symbols and how we process information, what would be a better icon that can indicate save without having to be taught? There is clearly no right answer here but is it even possible to create something that would work? Things like rain or clouds we can do because there we can see examples. Is there anything that indicates saving we could come up with?
Your difficulty here is the qualifier "better". We can create a different icon. A more modern icon. A cooler icon. But there is not a better icon, not until fewer people understand the floppy means save than those who have no idea what it is. And because it's self-reinforcing ("the save icon is a floppy disk because floppy means save"), that's not likely in my estimation.
But we did. We used a 3 1/2 floppy disk, which only made sense referentially very briefly (after it took over from 5 1/4 floppies, but before all the saving was handled by a hard drive), and then that became the convention.
You're asking if there's a referential equivalent you could do now. You could do a little cloud or whatever else, but it wouldn't be any less "taught", because the teaching happens, like any other UI iconography, by having a bit of text next to it in a menu or a tooltip and then it becoming an arbitrary icon that just means that thing.
The point of the icon referencing something (star for bookmarks, a down arrow into a little box for download and a puzzle piece for extensions in my Firefox bar right now) is to make it easier to remember later because there is some context that connects the visual to the functionality. It's not necessarily to make it so that I don't have to learn what the functionality is in the first place and just intuit from the visual. That just happens because I have decades of knowledge about what the functionality in browser is supposed to be and what the arbitrary convention for certain functionality across other apps ends up being.
don't change the floppy :( once nobody speaks of it, it truly dies
Not quite dead yet. This seismic survey ship I was 9n fairly recently.... we had generated the navigational data, and needed to feed it into the ships autopilot. This was done via floppy.
Yes, it was a relatively old ship (late 90's, I think), but there are plenty older ones around. And even when refurbishing a ship, they often leave the autopilot alone.
Don't worry, your wife still will.
Are you going for just updating? If so, I'd leave it alone. Culturally it's ubiquitous and doesn't require changing.
If you're thinking more along the lines of a save version of the whole "how do we ensure future people know nuclear waste resides within" then you're gonna run into the same problems they do, symbols change meaning over time. But if I had to pick something that may be obvious to most people, my vote is a scribe and a pen. Most cultures have writing, most cultures with writing save information by writing it down. There are problems, obviously, but if you gotta pick one, that's my vote until I hear a better suggestion.
And for what it's worth, with the nuclear waste sitch, my vote first the atomic priesthood
How about something like that? Symbolises data to device.
Maybe it's just me but this looks like we're putting it somewhere to forget. Like junk lol
that's an in/outbox for paper documents.
I've noticed youngsters where I work sometimes no longer know what "saving a document is", as they only know google doc style sync.
So I'd go with a send button: send to harddrive. Usually represented with an triangle/arrow.
Send/share buttons are already a fucking mess though
I think that's more of a UX issue than an issue of iconography, though. Could-synched stuff synchs in the background, so there's just no interaction involved.
I don't know how far down that road it'll go, but I wonder if eventually the concept of "checkpointing" in games becomes more frequent than old document saving and that's how we think about version control going forward.
"I have updated the save icon from a floppy disk to a CD-ROM."
We should just start manufacturing NVME drives to look like floppy disks.
I feel like the shape mostly doesn't matter, as most people will never see or physically interact with an NVME drive. It's just "the files are inside the computer."
It won't solve anything, but we should do it for fun, though.
GTA2 save point.
"Halleluja, another soul saved"!
Spot on 😁
lmao, well done!
This is how ancient Egyptians prepared their dead
Uplifting my mood
I'm pressing it.
The cloud is someone else's brain?
Interesting concept, attempting to indicate something entering the brain/head/statefulness. I wonder if we could generalize it further so that race of underground mole-people would understand it as well (e.g. not a species-specific head).
"Upload to Wetware"
Or just the hard drive by itself. Is a platter drive old fashioned these days?
Also a safe would be a decent choice.
Why do you want to move a piece of paper onto an old style record player?
I mean I'm in my 40s now, but we still have spread sheets, Word documents, and web pages don't we?
And I think everyone still knows hard drives are at least a thing? I can buy people in their early 30 or under never used a floppy, but we've all used some form of hard disk.
Also, I noticed no argument of the safe suggestion, and I hazard a guess many fewer of us have used an actual safe than a hard disk, especially a safe with a big swinging lock, but I think the majority could get the intent of putting something in a safe. Perhaps an open safe with an arrow going in if we want to be grandiose about it? 😉
A safe would make more sense for an encrypted partition or directory
You're asking for an abstract indicator of a concept. You might as well be trying to draw 'dignity'.
Everything else will become obsolete with time, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. We have countless icons that have long since been separated from their original meanings. The need for it to be intuitive is when the concept is new, not as it changes.
Yeah you're right, but I think it will be interesting to hear what people come up with. It's similar to the nuclear waste warnings. Wikipedia Nuclear Waste Warnings
Almost none of our symbols make sense and are disconnected from their origin. That's a good thing. Without detachment of the signs from their reference we can't have abstract thought and language. The letter D comes from an icon for fish. But it went from indexical reference to icon, to symbol. And then we changed its shape over time to what it is today, and some people started using it for the alveolar plosive. The same has happened for every single symbol we recognize and use, alphabet or not. It's all arbitrary and it doesn't matter if we don't use actual floppy disks anymore.
This is all true but given the charge of creating a new icon that would be the "most recognizable" as save to the most people the first time they see it, what would that look like. The question is impossible to answer with a single thing as it's too vast and everything becomes meaningless eventually. But given everything we know of languages, the brain, how we perceive things, what would be a better icon we could design?
You can't design a better icon. That's not how symbolism works. The most recognizable symbol for save is the one we are using now. As designing something new, by default, it would not be recognized by anyone but the designer since use defines meaning. Until it is used it won't be recognized by anyone.
Edit: like, think of the play icon and its meaning in media control. It was born as an indicator of the direction a reel to reel tape player was moving. It still holds that meaning for digital streaming today despite the virtual extinction of tape players. Its use defines its meaning, detached from its origin and despite the obsolescence of its reference.
Assuming that I can't rely on real life's ubiquitous floppy disk icon, I think something with a bookshelf is probably my best bet. An arrow pointing to the bookshelf for save, away for load. Bookshelves can be recognisable as pretty small icons and a physical book is extremely broadly understood. It may eventually fail if everyone moves to e-readers, but I think that's a long way off
A pencil writing on paper.
Assuming we're talking about "anyone" including a post-collapse society or an alien race that never invented the floppy, and sufficiently advanced to competently use a computer. The most basic means of recording information is to use an implement to create marks on a surface. You can draw lines in the sand, or indentations on a clay tablet, or scratches on a lead sheet, or lines on a paper, the method usually involves a flat surface and a pointy object leaving visible lines. The symbolic representation of a pencil and paper is sufficiently generic that most people will associate it with committing information to a non-volatile medium.
That’s “Edit”
Or “New”? Fuck
Yeah I think something along those lines is probably what we'd end up with. We couldn't do something that is truly universally understood to mean save but I think we'd get a large percentage of users who would make the connection instinctively.
Anything designed to represent the save action will become obsolete eventually because the nature of saving data changes.
Originally you saved writing by inscribing it on a wax tablet, then paper, then removable disk, then hard disk, then solid state, now the cloud.
I would say the most times less will be pencil on paper as it's the most basic method of recording.
📝
But that's already considered to mean an edit action
Maybe something like a document going into a safe? As things are increasingly digital, both of those technologies become somewhat less relevant. On the other hand, one could go with 保存 on a button. Chinese and Japanese speakers will instantly know what it does. Others could learn. At some point, kanji are just slightly more complex squiggles to represent an increasingly non-concrete thing.
The word "save" localized appropriately.
This would work as long as the device the user was using adopted localization properly and all applications supported all languages. Consider also there are people who can speak a language but aren't able to read it. Those are a small percentage but they exist.
The goal of this would be to come up with an icon that would be most recognizable as save to the most people and future people after languages have changed.
📖
Two types:
- "Save state" like in video games or word processors
- For saving state in current application
- There is hard disc / cloud saving
- "Save file" like in web browsers
- This is for creating a copy of a file you found and want to keep
- There is hard disc / cloud saving
In both cases you will want to signify saving to disc (this could look like a thick round disc) versus saving to the cloud
This would work for the foreseeable future I think. At some point tech changes and although we could just update the icon as that happens I'm wondering if we can design something that is at least resistant to becoming obsolete (like a floppy or even hdd/ssd) and is mostly recognizable to most people. It's an impossible question but there could be some cool ideas that come up out of this post.
Assuming people still know what a folder is, the most obvious would be a folder with an arrow going into it, like:
or
