Stop Treating Phone Numbers As A Digital ID
Stop Treating Phone Numbers As A Digital ID
Are internet security and internet privacy incompatible goals?
To the same audience: quit selling my fucking phone number!
I ditched a phone number I had for 10+ years because it was leaked everywhere. Only a few short months after updating my number with the DMV and a handful of other government agencies I started receiving scam calls/messages again.
At some point we need to adopt some fucking privacy laws. This is absolutely bonkers—is no one else fed up??
Edit: I already know how to silence unknown callers. What I want is to not have the problem in the first place, ideally by 1) having companies not sell personal data to third parties and 2) being able to block spoofed (non-encrypted) caller ID.
Oh everyone is fed up but we just elected a guy and government who is sure to make it all way way way worse.
He just helped put the nail in the coffin of the lie that crypto is for anything but scams, don't worry, it's gonna get real bad before it gets any better.
In South Africa, where I live, everyone is assigned an ID Number at Birth. You need an ID number, thumbprint scan AND proof of address to get issued a SIM card number due to a law introduced called RICA. It was meant to help fight crime. Worried that the government could listen in to calls or read their SMSs, the criminals just switched to WhatsApp, which also happened to become cheaper than SMSs and gained popularity in this time.
The cops never seemed to crack WhatsApp. The only drug busts that happen are when an open secret becomes laughably too open and when they harass every person arriving from South America at O.R. Tambo international airport just to catch the decoy mules carrying 12g of cocaine (total). Every dealer I ever organised with was over WhatsApp.
So now, woopsi, RICA stopped nothing and just became a liability. That treasure trove of fragile data made its way to scammers and spammers. A total net negative.
I'd encourage everyone else in other countries to apply major pushback to any government proposals in this direction.
"Bitcoin, it just seems like a scam," Mr Trump said. "I don't like it because it's another currency competing against the dollar."
— Donald Trump
Of course, Trump Coin made just for him is fine. And any security who bribes him. Oh wait now none of them are securities; Gary Gensler was our last line of defense.
[Edit: got it backwards]
I'm pretty sure a lot of scam calls use machines that call every possible phone number within an area code and see who answers. There is no way to avoid it.
quit
sellingdemanding my fucking phone number!FTFY
Australia has a "do not call register". It seems to mostly work, but telcos are having trouble with calls originating from outside the network with spoofed caller ID. We still get spam/scam calls from India among other places.
Even if they're not calling you directly, they are still using your phone number to link you to things and create a shadow profile behind the scenes.
So does the US, though you need to re-register every so often. It works pretty well, but it's not advertised very well.
Don't worry, here in Europe we are full of privacy laws but I still receive tents of spam calls per day. Usually from non UE countries faking the number with my country numbers.
Anything with a London 020 number is guaranteed to be a man with an Indian accent pretending to be from British Telecom.
At some point we need to adopt some fucking privacy laws.
Yeah we absolutely had to ban TilTok because of privacy concerns but the idea of creating a law to protect our privacy is ridiculous beyond all reasoning. The stupidity of the United States government is absolute.
Agreed, but I’m not addressing TikTok specifically but rather policies similar to GDPR.
I set my phone to decline calls from unknown callers years ago.
These calls are already illegal. I used to report them to the FTC but I never heard anything back so I have no idea what happens, but I presume nothing. If I had the time to take them, and if they spoke English, I would record them with the Cube ACR app (which no longer works) and convince them to incriminate themselves. Ask their name, company, location, time/date, whether they ran my number through the DNC registry.
At some point we need to adopt some fucking privacy laws. This is absolutely bonkers—is no one else fed up??
Look at you, trying to use the government to solve every day problems that face pretty much all of us.
Don't you know we only focus on gridlock issues to distract us from real issues now?
I do, unfortunately.
I have an app called Silence that lets me block calls from numbets not in my addreasbook. Highly recommended
https://github.com/x13a/Silence
Reminder: Dont blindly trust random internet sources!
That’s not the problem I’m referring to; this is already built-in to iOS (and I hope Android).
I'm confused of how this keeps happening to people.
Like I use my phone on most sites that allow it and I've never had spam/scam calls really, but I've also explicitly unchecked the marketing boxes that appear on the signup so maybe that it.
The last instance that actually happened to me was with entering my university a few years ago for my BS degree. They 1000% sold my contact information as some part of the deans/honors list process. I reached out to them and stopped that so fast.
This should be what digital ID looks like:
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
mDMEZ26+ARYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAsUGMjbGNUyyz9PHsHKP4xj/tIfYIuHb4miPH 0iCPpu60K0VSUk9SOiBFYXJ0aC5leGUgaGFzIGNyYXNoZWQgPG5vQGVtYWlsLmV4 ZT6IcgQTFggAGgQLCQgHAhUIAhYBAhkBBYJnbr4BAp4BApsDAAoJEI6E3uMn31Z3 028BAM5o8ER0dqTsxFlZSgZOvvgFHGuy2eFgF3rULkGKl1KrAP9fdE7WwnYbBer/ AVmw5jr0P5m/XsEQQrSueuk/FLYBBbg4BGduvgESCisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0BDR0Bv pf4jxbwp9rVowFTnL59NGqnnh6XyF/LjAoYDGgMBCAeIYQQYFggACQWCZ26+AQKb DAAKCRCOhN7jJ99Wd1dMAP45xmN03SodkWHi7PYOORqNXJUBdMzzfsRXdqE8ZXaW vAD+PqNqPcbwJYCOEAXkg7DlZ0SX3o9MViZLdzHFQ3TpUA8= =krDh -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
PGP Key Fingerprint: 857957d40f06cc816fd3d29a8e84dee327df5677
Should be good until quantum computers come around
Now type it a form that doesn’t allow copy and paste.
The California DMV requires you to renew your vehicle registration every year by paying with a bank account number (no card) which is like a 30ish digit number and they disable paste. If you get it wrong they won’t notify you in any way until you get pulled over by a cop who is one bad sneeze away from murdering you. It’s a great system.
Or even just a paper form.
A bit of a hacky workaround on Android. Get Keepass2Android, use the included keyboard.
"Paste" whatever via the inbuilt password input functionality. It basically auto types out your passwords. (You protect this behind a master password/and optionally quick accessed by biometrics)
Profit
Yeah... I did this kind of thing before as a password and found that out the hard way
Thanks, gonna need your phone number to verify that though.
No you don't! That's why we have key-signing parties!
I want to preface this response saying I full agree with this, I want something like this to happen, I am responding because of some concerns I have. The real major one: How do you verify the authentication part of the data security chain?
A PGP key alone does not authentically validate that you are who you say you are. When the source is the untrusted party, it doesn't accomplish the site's goal. It's the equivalent to me handing you a piece of paper saying "I'm John Smith and this is what I use to say I'm this" which works amazing for trusted exchanges, but when the source is "just trust me bro" it doesn't solve anything for the website owner.
Websites get around this by having trust certificates/root servers that are co-signed with the PGP key. However, we lack any system like that for personal identities. Arguably, setting up such a system would isolate most of the known internet, as it is a significant roadblock, much like how SSL certificate usage was a huge roadblock for sites before Let's Encrypt became a thing.
This setup would be amazing for logging into sites. However, it fails to accomplish what the websites that are asking for PII are looking for, which is verification that their user is who they say they are, and not a random third party.
To reliably use this setup, we would need something similar to Let's Encrypt, but for user identification. The issue with that is it would become the de-facto attack vector (for both law enforcement and criminal parties), and that site would need to require PII to address the biggest concern on these sites, which is that you are who you say you are, and not Jo Smo or a bot looking to harvest data. Additionally, as mentioned earlier, a massive retraining of the internet would need to be done, which would mostly affect non-tech folk.
I am hopeful that an easy function that won't violate users privacy comes out, but I don't think the two topics are compatible sadly
The solution here is distributed trust by proxy. You start with a single exchange between two trusted peers, and build from there. As long as every individual link within the network is trusted, then any route between two disconnected endpoints can be trusted as well. As the network grows there is a very high statistical likelihood that there will exist many individual trust graphs between two nodes, which provides redundant validation.
I have always thought this would make a cool chat app. You enter the network by scanning someone's QR code to become their validated peer, and then you can theoretically communicate with anyone else on the network by exchanging keys via trust graphs. You could then build a social network on top of it which shows you how many hops it takes you to get to some celebrity or some shit.
Nah, there are more than enough algorithms available that won't work on quantum computers, I'm not too worried about that
-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- hF4D7cLqolaUp8cSAQdAOCdAgwhjdDgwk6TsYbey9XLZrKT7ny+KRAORyTPJsmUw Fl1llKK3dYtwrPDUts8CA71uU8D2SOWwrk/mrQxlrP/btjNNj6j1vXehQJ0+FIuc 0sBPAU3onDQoAiPLDU7qky1cgtbgitMp4nGEnZ48Xh8OhWS03d9YfU4iIIuf/AWA MTzzbMLZCLqZrIiJGyE2EgJOLIMAOToxidQ6Z/blrT6W9effeu4GwEB622O0eIv5 ct0jm/e2A6j1Gf/7UsnzeC21ME55/JkDIFQQ5ZrYqRGp9+M0yNHXIhJXQvO+QmHz 1CclNIdwbnupIIy0+eiy+Wn41An/IUV2NJy+bmCxRmqTXZyNrfnPMrelY5imknd9 1oZGuHc6tWqNq0ntjV1sBBsxHtAXtFIBWcqEmUgnpxEBglRxx20thoWvQINisCB4 9ptHAUM9Qjr3tWFdvL5MqOHZ14XQ65bbKXhx5MJmr5yijA== =JKT0 -----END PGP MESSAGE-----No one except this guy will be able to read this. Die out of curiosity muhahahaha
That.... very thoughful... 😅
I'll make sure to remember your kinds words and never give you up, and never let you down 😎
- Phone numbers
- social security numbers
Stop making personal information into digital ids because when it inevitably ends up in some kind of data breach. These companies all throw their hands up saying sucks to be you.
Nah, man. Gotta get my $2.97 check.
Yeah, just generate a unique ID and ask only for the information you actually need.
What I hate is when they want you to store "secret" information like your mother's maiden name/ first pet name for later verifications. You know these are stored in plain text of course. My own damn government does this stupid shit, and they've had several hacks of PII including gun registrations because as far as I can tell, nobody competent works in government IT.
I choose random questions and store the random passwords that I use as answers in my password manager. It's also more secure because people can't just Facebook stalk you for answers.
Security questions don't care what you put in there. It's not an exam. It's basically just an alt password.
I just generate a string of alphanumeric text from my password generator and stuff those in there. If I lose my password vault somehow I'm cooked anyway, so.
I use bullshit answers for these, and save them in the notes section of my password manager.
Bane of my life as about a year ago my dad switched his sim and immediately started pestering me about not being able to log into his accounts.
Yes he got rid of the old number completly and expected me to somehow make his logins work. This is still going on to this day when he complains to me something doesn't work it's because he's tied it to his old phone number.
It is the same thing that happened with US Social Security Numbers, which were originally just tracking numbers for that one purpose that were coopted by capitalists and treated like something special.
I remember I was flipping through some of my mom's old college stuff and there was a club that she was involved with and everyone listed their address and social security numbers. It was wild, no idea why they felt the need to collect socials. But this was a very long time ago.
It's not just "capitalists" (whatever that means), every government agency seems to want it, employers and banks are required to ask for it, etc. It's more than just "some people misused it," we actually wrote it into regulations.
Please. It is the most annoying part of trying to use some sites and I rather not give out my number to people who store important info in plain text files.
Yes. Don't forget your phone number will be exposed to the public when the business gets hacked.
Not if. When.
I'm in a quest to find a good email provider that doesn't ask for a cellphone or another email address while creating an account, cock.li used to do this but now it's "getting back on its feet"
Just signed up for Tuta and they do not ask for this.
Tuta won't let you check mail unless you give them a phone number or pay, if I recall correctly.
Proton?
There used to be a way to make Google accounts with no number but that's probably been patched. I generally refuse to add numbers if I can help it.
Proton, Mailbox & fastmail are all good options. Best way to avoid it is self-hosting but that is beyond most people (as in time-consuming).
If it's associated with a specific device it will let you (ex my Android tv has its own account, no phone)
Personally I use mailbox.org, it's not free, but you are not the product
Ionos enabled me to do that.
But I chose not to.
Are Internet security and Internet privacy incompatible goals?
They are if the security is tied to knowing that an account is a person.
I don't want to treat phone numbers as an ID, but for some reason my customers will give their phone number to me online far more willingly than they'll cough up their email address, which is baffling only until you realize:
- Most people are technologically incompetent and are intimidated by the avalanche of crap they get in their email, and
- They never answer their phones anyway, so who cares?
I actually offer the option, because I don't give a rat's ass how people ignore me when I try to contact them. But when they place an order I at least need to be able to prove that I tried.
which is baffling only until you realize
I stopped being baffled when I realized most people are dumb as shit.
It's just a fact of life, and we either see it or we don't.
TBF many people are more intimidated by emails. My mum, for example, is in her 70s - she's okay with using a smartphone but she doesn't trust 'internet stuff'. Won't put her card details in, doesn't trust emails - which is fair, because a lot of emails are bullshit or scams. She grew up with telephones though and feels safer using them. Possibly why so many phone scams target older people. I've tried to educate her.
This attitude doesn't make people dumb. A bit ignorant, maybe, but I feel like 'dumb as shit' is a bit harsh.
Yo sign me up 867-5309
Jenny, what is your area code?
When I give out my email, I always get spam, regardless of how many boxes I uncheck.
When I give out my phone number, sometimes I don’t
Of course that no longer makes sense since I have one phone number I can’t easily change, but give out uniquely generated emails that I can individually turn off
I've been considering getting a pager or a burner phone just for this
Most phones are dual Sim these days
Better to not associate this number to your main phone anyway. Less likelyhood to have the info stolen from you.
Just get a virtual DID number from something like Voip.ms or virtualphone. There may be other providers out there that use crypto for payment for added privacy, but if all you want to do is be able to keep your real phone # off the grid, these work.
Can pagers receive text messages? I thought they are closed ecosystems, basically?
you know i'm not sure.
What i want is a phone that is basically a beeper for text messages. Doesn't even have to send. just receive the stupid OTP. I wonder how hard that'd be to make with like a raspberri pi or something
Theres an LTT video where one of the boys intercept all Linus' calls and texts, classic prank.
You mean the Veritasuim video with linus in it?
Internet security and internet privacy are only incompatible goals when combined with incompetency and shit user-exerience design.
On this question of verification, I don’t have a particularly foolproof solution, but maybe there just isn’t one.
I can criticize the modern web for a lot of things, but as long as we have situations where we want to check whether an account is a real person, as opposed to FarmingBot #295038, they need something. I'm not a fan of phone verification, but I'd only criticize it when we have alternatives.
I'd even be in favor of some kind of one-way algorithm by which a trusted real-person-identifying entity could tell a random third party site: Yes, this is a genuine human.
The technology has existed since the 80s.
X509 certificates would allow a government agency to sign a digital identity indicating that it's legitimate, would allow for remote revocation in the event of loss or theft, and can be easily integrated with every existing computer and browser.
An issued physical card would resemble a credit card, with a chip in it. Other physical form factors can take the shape of USB-devices which bundle the card and the reader into a single device.
In the real world:
https://www.oesterreich.gv.at/en/id-austria.html
That exists and is better than a phone number.
Are internet security and internet privacy incompatible goals?
Yes. They are completely incompatible goals when anything relating to identity/being is linked to it. Examples of this could be anything from your name, to your behavioral patterns, to your phone number
Disregarding the entire possibility that ANY site is hack-able/breach-able, the issue stands that the reasons that most sites request PII is valid, for security reasons. There does not exist any valid method of ensuring users identity that does not violate users privacy. CAPTCHAS are proven inefficient, email domains are easy as a 1-2 click. Once the setup is done server side changing to a new address is as easy as changing your server settings and registering a new domain, then just pointing your MX records there. Heck depending on your postfix setup you might not even have to change server settings, if your account lookup is setup to ignore the domain and it all uses the same database. Even phone numbers have proven troublesome but its the least troublesome method available
The entire reason PII style setups are used, is because its an easy verification site side, but a hard to spoof verification customer side. Like the article says, phone numbers are hard to change for verification, many only let you change so many times in X period, and usually require some form of physical identity to register, and the ones who don't are forced such as VOIP style numbers get blocked.
We lack currently a good system aside from that, because at the end of the day, how do you prove you are who you say you are, without disclosing your identity. I personally think it should be fine to give up some PII for security purposes, but this NEEDS to be restricted only to security and should never be shared with any entity, and this includes government overreach. Alas this will never happen.
This assumes a legitimate need to prove who you are outside the context of that specific site, rather than just within it. Sometimes that need is real, sometimes it is not.
When it's not, and you only need to prove you are the same person who created the account, then a simple username and password is sufficient. Use 2FA (via authenticator app or key, NOT via SMS or email) on top of that. This allows users to prove to a sufficient degree that they are the owner of that account.
This is how most Lemmy instances work, for example. I can sign up by creating a username and password, with optional 2FA. They do not need my email. They do not need my phone number. They do not need my name, or my contacts, or anything else that is not related to my identity within their server.
I realize that this is untenable at large scales for any communications platform. Spam (and worse) is a problem wherever there are easy and anonymous signups. I'm honestly not sure how Lemmy is as clean as it is. I guess it's just not popular enough to attract spammers.
You are correct with this comment yea, the biggest drawback (which as acknowledged we have seen on lemmy) is the anonymous of the account. It's easy to spin up spam instances, and due to how federation works its hard to combat against it. I remember LW had an issue regarding that a bit ago with someone threatening to just keep changing domains to avoid blocking, which is indeed a problem for any of these style services. I agree at large scale, most sites are not going to want to have to put up with losing that level of control moderation side. It creates a lot of headaches and for most sites it's just easier to enforce a policy that forces disclosing PII.
I absolutely love this.
I have absolutely no need for my phone number, nor do I use it for anything that I couldn't use a voice app for. Just get rid of them altogether.
Yeah I mean I'd get rid of that and email entirely if I could but unfortunately there are legal and societal expectations.
We need email. It's one of the few protocols that are 100% in the user's control. I run my own mail server. I can't do the same for whatsapp.
We've added a lot of checks to email (SSL, DKIM, DMARC, SPF) so it's very easy to identify spam these days. It's also easy to avoid giving any two companies the same email address. That's something much harder to avoid with a phone number.
For 2FA, per-account email addresses and authenticor apps are the best approach for privacy.
You'll pry email from my #coldDeadHands, but I haven't had a phone number for a decade.
Get married, then legally, you only need one lol.
It's not an accident. They're not stupid. It is intentional. They want your personal information. Most of your personal information is tied to your email but it's easy enough to spin up an alias to sign in with. Requiring a phone number ensures that they know exactly who you are and can buy/sell/use your data accordingly. They also know what a giant pain in the dick it is to change your phone number, especially when you need it for these security checks. They also know sales conversion rates are much higher if they can get you on the phone. So yeah, they're not going to stop doing that.
Emails can be simple - mine is $firstName@$lastName.me Tbh phone numbers are quite long and if people can't remember 4 digital pin... Still you can generate qr code mailto: links
Computer technology is fundamentally insecure so long as everything is connected all the time. It drives me mental that idiots keep trying to foist the whole of human society onto devices which are clearly unfit for the task.
Technology exists to keep all your personal data exceptionally secure. Modern encryption is incredibly difficult to break (impossible really).
Humans are fundamentally insecure. Any time you read about a data leak, it's because somebody stupidly opened an attachment or fell for a scam. Any time someone gets "hacked," they didn't. They gave away their information. Human error and a lack of education are the problems.