Thinking about an EV? I would strong suggest avoiding a Tesla and picking another brand.
Thinking about an EV? I would strong suggest avoiding a Tesla and picking another brand.
CEO of Tesla and acting President-elect Musk is going on a neo-Nazi binge endorsing far right candidates instead of properly running the companies he's involved in such as Tesla.
In addition Tesla is considered one of the most unreliable car brands according to: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-placed-bottom-consumer-reports-reliability-rankings/
Moreover Tesla has the highest fatal accident rates of all car brands according to: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a62919131/tesla-has-highest-fatal-accident-rate-of-all-auto-brands-study/
Also there are privacy implications with using a car that could in theory spy on you: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/massive-trove-of-tesla-files-contains-thousands-of-safety-complaints/
Now that more competent and establish brands are making EVs there's no reason to buy a Tesla if you want an EV. I'm not here to recommend another brand, I'm just here to tell you that your next EV should be anything other than a Tesla.
Tesla is off my list.
EV Santa ovah hereeee
It's not a theory, all modern cars are spying on you and selling your data to anyone who will pay for it.
I’m so sick of people pretending we can consume our way out of this, it needs regulations and that’s the only way.
I'm very happy with mine but to each their own. Musk is definitely a complete asshole to put it mildly and imo the worst part of having a Tesla is the association with him. It's certainly a valid reason to not want one.
There will always be tesla fanboys whenever the brand is talked down. Sadly, the points brought up by OP have been valid for years.
Stories of teslas not shutting down in crashes, leaving paramedics unable to assist, and doors locking while updating are still present for the cars, whereas nearly all other vehicles don't do dumb things like "escape cords" but just use mechanical locks that won't fail on a power outage.
If you say anyone who is enjoying their Tesla is a fanboy then you're doing the same thing as them, just on the opposite side. These criticisms can be levied at many vehicles and they are certainly valid if overblown. I personally think there are far bigger problems with the cars than these which are largely non issues. Prospective buyers should do their research carefully and make up their own minds.
whats a good source of info for purchasing US-available, non-tesla evs?
Pretty much go for only Hyundais or Kias. They’re all in on EVs and they’re fantastic. I have an Ioniq 5 and while it does have issues, every car does, and it has a tenth the issues that teslas and others do.
I like my MachE.
It's not for everyone, but it rides nice, is great to live with, doesn't cost me a fortune to run. I'm pretty happy with it.
PSA: Some years of Kia and Hyundai cars have known vulnerabilities that resulted in many thefts.
Not in-depth, but a complete list with some specs to get you started. https://evadoption.com/ev-models/bev-models-currently-available-in-the-us/
If you are on the market now, I can recommend the BMW i4. They are desperately trying to get their name in the game and are offering ridiculous discounts, before the end of the year.
I recently leased a BMW i4 M50 and absolutely love it.
My impression of BMW is that they're cars for people who want to look rich but aren't. Then the endless repairs keep the buyer broke. Maybe the EVs are different?
My BMW story is when I worked a shitty as fuck management job and my boss loved his BMW. His job was shitty as fuck too. He told stories about how all his life he wanted a BMW and he could finally afford one- ten years old. It would regularly stall out at idle if you didn't give it a bit of gas.
https://electrek.co/ is a decent source for EV news. Beyond that most of your typical car sites have a halfway decent reviews section.
Go to Autotrader, advanced search, fuel type: electric.
Now you can see all the available EVs from all brands.
Look at the specs. Charging speed, range, cost. Go feel how they feel to drive. There's not that many options so easy to see them all.
GM was an early alternative choice, but I don't have much but anecdotal evidence that they're good. I'm looking at a Hyundai, electric Silverado, or Rivian to replace my 10yo pickup sometime in the next 2-5 years.
Of all the ones I've test driven, none of them meet or exceed Tesla's "Supervised FSD", but that's a non starter because fuck that guy.
I have Genesis GV60 and love it. I bought my son a Kona Electric. It's also great. Agreed that Kia, Hyundai, Genesis have good things going on right now
Out of Spec Studios. Mostly youtube videos. They have a solid and consistent range testing methodology if range is a concern. But also deep technical understanding of more nuanced things like fast charging curves, battery management system quirks, which regions have good charging infra or not, and so on.
Kyle Conner with Out of Spec is the guy to pay attention to for all things EV. An actual expert with real passion. That and the rest of the good people he works with there.
About a year old, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bzd_JTB_w
I also recommend his much more recent guest appearance on that same podcast, just a week or two ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng-aK_oAsSY
The YouTube channel "Out of Spec Reviews" is pretty solid, they have a suite of other channels where they show real world road trips and more in depth videos about what it's like to live with the cars.
I want some recommendations. Something with tactile controls and no subscriptions.
1998 Toyota Tercel.
I drive the EV equivalent of this, a 2016 Nissan leaf.
It only cost 6k, 4kish with tax rebates, but it has a max mileage of like 70 miles. Perfect for our needs as a commuter car within the city.
There is a touchscreen, but that's just for audio since the gps and Pandora features stopped working after 3g cell service was phased out. There are tactile controls for audio as well.
If you're in the US, wait about a year and you'll have a bunch of better options from the traditional automakers.
The thing that makes Tesla compelling to me is their charger network, and Ford, GM, etc are adopting the Tesla standard in upcoming models. I think Ford is doing the switch in 2025.
I'm a truck guy, and the F150 lightning looks way, way more compelling than the Cybertruck, because they're making what I want. A truck that happens to be electric. Ford has been making F-series trucks for over 75 years and has made a pretty refined package in that time. They took that design, put in an electric motor and used the space savings for a frunk.
That's what I want. The revolution should be in how it's powered, not in how it operates.
For future I'm looking at Telo and Scout. Obviously can't yet comment on reliability and privacy concerns but iirc both will have tactile feel.
Considering how badly VAG is doing on EV front I'd worry about the reliability and pricing on any Scout products. I hadn't heard about Telo though, that looks incredibly interesting of course it'll fly about as well as a station wagon here in the US but what's basically an electric kei car is a wicked concept.
BMW i3. Been driving a 2017 one for a few months and am very happy. Winter hits like a brick, though.
Winter hits like a brick
Do you mean the battery performs worse? My Leaf does that, I'd say 20% decrease in range on a charge. I think this is a characteristic of lithium batteries. Maybe it will go away if and when we get solid state or capacitor batteries.
Yeah, Hard to argue with physics :)
Nearly all modern cars are a privacy nightmare. That is not a valid reason to avoid Tesla in favor of a different modern car.
All the other points are spot on, though. Fuck Tesla and fuck the nazi shitbag that pretends to run it.
So if all cars are privacy nightmares we'd have to pick the least bad option. Tesla is the worst option because you have a privacy nightmare plus it's ran by a guy who has a history of abusing his power by doing things like banning journalists on his "X" platform. Could he one day use the data collected by Tesla cars against someone he doesn't like?
Don't let your (justified) dislike of Tesla dull your senses towards other automakers.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html
Why the downvotes? Lemmy is weird.
I think the indication here is that Musk has the potential to use that collected information to further his nefarious societal goals including potential targeting of individuals whilst the other manufacturers are purportedly using that data only for monetary gain. In that light Tesla’s data collection is not the same, thus the downvotes for OP.
Yeah not a single dime he will receive from me. I'm not going to support a Nazi.
I'd love an EV once I have the means. I plan on starting the conversation at the dealership with something akin to "what do you have that isn't a Tesla?"
Even if I was gifted a Tesla, I'd sell it ASAP. Fuck everything to do with Musk, to include his shitty cars.
Tesla is trash, no QC.
I'm eyeing Lucid right now, but hoping for even more competition over the next couple few years.
I hate Elon. I want him to get Luigi'd, but my Tesla is paid off and costs me basically nothing now except shame. So I think it'd be wiser to drive it until it dies or something happens and it gets totaled out.
I agree though, don't buy a Tesla. I've told all my friends and family not to get one. Anyone who asks me how I like it I just say it sucks and to look at other brands.
Hey man don't let that get to you, at the end of the day if you have an already paid vehicle the smart move is to run it as long as you can bear it, it's also the most eco friendly. It sucks about Elon and it's definitely a big part of why my EV isn't a Tesla (among other things) but who cares what people think when they see you on the road you know you've got your heart in the right place. If it bothers you so much just put one of these stickers on it.
For recommendations, in the States, Porsche and Lucid are the best you can get. You have a lot more options for electric vehicles outside of the US, in say, Australia or the UK, because of Chinese brands.
Chinese brands are affordable because they pay their workers slave wages. Fuck off with that.
So which manufacturers should we look at? I'm in the market for a second EV right now. And this is my chain of thought.
My considerations are:
- Used cars only, I'm not paying 25% for the privilege of driving the car over the curb for the first time.
- No Chinese cars. They may be a good deal right now, but China is about to go do something stupid, like fight for the South China Sea or un-secede Taiwan. And then who knows what's going to happen with parts or if your car suddenly won't drive because it's a strategic advantage for China to kill as much infrastructure as possible. Besides some of the military installations (especially airbases) I visit already have areas, where Chinese cars aren't allowed in, if that becomes the entire installations I will have to walk around.
- No Teslas. I don't trust Musk to not revoke licenses or brick the car, and the QC is nonexistent. Besides I'd have to get one of those "I bought my Tesla before we knew he was an asshat" stickers.
- No Fords, that's just a rule of thumb for me.
- Range, I've had it with those stupid <50kWh battery packs. I'm not asking for much, just being able to go 300km at highway speeds. Going 90km/h and still have to charge every 150km sucks.
- Charging system must be CCS2 capable of 3 phases. Fuck Nissan and their stupid single phase type1/chademo solutions , there's no chademo chargers anywhere. And charging single phase at 3.3kW, when you're not at home, gets old fast.
I was looking at Renault Zoe, but after speaking with my local Renault dealer, who has a warranty order in for a simple spare reverse camera, and Renault for 6 months straight now, can't even tell when they'll be able to ship it. So Renault is out of the running.
So what else is there? Must be <5 years old, <20k€, and if it could have some warranty left it would be great. Hyundai Kona is starting to look pretty good right now.
Maybe a French brand? They have plenty of models to choose from. An ID.3 or the Cupra equivalent? Maybe check an European focused EV website like Electrifying?
Hyundai IONIQ (or the Kia EV# rebadges)?
Alternatively Volvo/Polestar, perhaps? Technically they’re partially Chinese owned - but at least a respectable International marque.
I’m a sucker for the neon-green Abarth 500e, but I’m going to wait a few years to pick one up second hand - as it’s hard to justify buying a Stellaris car new, given how quickly they depreciate here (Australia).
Yeah we know Tesla sucks
Are you actually asking for honest feedback or just upvotes?
If so, buying any used car is better. If you can get by with a 2008 accord, buy that. Better for the environment than any new electric. If you don't care about the environment and just want an electric for funsies, buy a used (whatever is well rated).
I'm not asking for anything. I just wanted to warn people so they are not stuck with a heap of junk from a company who's CEO endorses neo-Nazi political parties.
Better yet, buy a bicycle. Of course this doesn't currently work for everyone, but many people could live a better life with just a bike and don't even realize it. Deeply evaluate your own situation.
Better for the environment than any new electric.
Got any sources on that?
I'm looking for an EV with the NACS (Tesla) charger and that will do V2H (reverse) charging. I don't know if any of these exist yet.
If the car has a J1772 (it does) and supports V2H you're golden as J1772 is J3400 (NACS) and a passive adapter you can get for like 20 bucks will ensure you can use it anywhere
Even getting something with J3400 on it in the near future you'll likely end up wanting an adapter for all the machines on legacy hardware, anyway
Beware superchargers, they are only 400 volt at the moment. Right now, any 800+ volt EV will charge worse on Tesla superchargers than on 800 volt CCS chargers.
That will probably improve but it'll take years.
The 2025 Kia‘s EV6’s (and other models?) have the NACS and AFAIK, all EV6 models can do V2H. Some require an adapter and others have outlets in the base of the rear seats.
Also in January there is supposedly an update coming to enable compatibility with the supercharger network.
Adapters are cheap.
The first point rings true, but the other points seem like cherry picking.
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Unreliability: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-subaru-lexus-make-the-most-reliable-cars/ Tesla is below average on reliability, but unreliable Mainstays like Jeep still are lower. Other lists put Tesla in the middle of the pack, Cybertruck nonwithstanding. Still not great.
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Fatal accident rate: This comment explains why: "As for fatalities, neither the article nor the comments I've seen so far have raised the obvious points of mis-use or over-reliance on automated driving systems or the shock (as in a famous case in Texas a couple of years ago) of an inexperienced driver given access to, let's say a Model S Plaid, stepping on the accelerator and being thrown back against the seat and into a state of shock such that the foot remains pressed on the accelerator while the car runs off the road."
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Spying: Unfortunately, every single brand spies on you and your driving, as shown in https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/
A note on the "Fatal accident rate" topic:
A car which uses touch panels for control and electronics for simple things like doors, and relies only on a camera to do self-driving (no lidar), is bound to be unsafe in multiple ways. Drivers make more mistakes because they aren't provided physical switches and levers, they make mistakes because they're distracted by light from screens, in emergencies there are issues with unlocking doors and finally, when machine vision fails, there is no backup to tell of a Big Old Obstacle right ahead.
A note on the "Spying" topic:
Mozilla compared privacy policies. They didn't actually take apart cars, intercept their comms or dissect manufacturers' apps. I wish there existed a review of actual behaviours, as opposed to policies.
A car's ability to actually spy on the user depends on its tech, not just the policy. So a very simple car (not a Tesla, obviously) with a very agressive policy of "we collect everything" would be safer than a smartphone on wheels with a modest policy. You can't spy if you haven't got sensors.
As far as your points about the fatal accidents stuff goes - maybe Tesla shouldn't call it Full Self Driving if it can't fully self-drive without killing you, and maybe their cars shouldn't go 0-60 in 2 seconds by default, if that proves too difficult for inexperienced drivers to control.
"Reliability" is a difficult metric. It can cover everything from faulty seals on a door to a transmission that fails in 5k miles. One thing to search for when you're trying to see how reliable cars are is technical service bulletins (TSBs); the more a given make/model has, the more likely it is that there will be significant reliability issues.
IIRC most electric cars from newer companies have reliability issues, while electric vehicles from established brands tend to be more reliable.
As far as privacy goes, unless you buy with cash, you aren't going to have a lot of choice to turn off telemetry. And you might lose parts of the dashboard (e.g., the entire infotainment system) if you pull fuses.
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My folks have a tesla, and it's ok (from a passenger perspective). Really put off by the console UX.
I'm considering the F150 lightning, and looking for any input on that idea?
As for why Ford instead of Rivian? I try to buy union for big ticket items like this.
If you can find the Lighting Pro model, that's the one to buy for 2 reasons: it's cheaper and it has more buttons
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Toyota built three factories in my broke-ass state. You can buy an American brand like Ford that's built in China and assembled in Mexico or you can buy an American made Toyota.
Generally yes, but the F150 Lightning is assembled in Dearborn, Michigan (I believe with union jobs).
My personal order: locally assembled > union assembled > locally sourced materials.
The first because shipping a fully assembled product is costly environmentally, and if it’s assembled locally it also is feeding jobs locally (which the second most important thing to me is union supported). Finally, the more locally sourced the components (which are easier to ship but it still has an impact), the more it reinforces those first two things.
Interesting I'm put off by non Tesla non-Rivian UX. Android Auto and carplay are not native to cars and just feel like they've been shoved in and not really fully capable of anything car related.
Probably a design philosophy thing. I prefer cars not be designed around computers. Feels a bit 'black box' to me. And if the console dies, I'm kinda SOL for anything routed through it. To be contrasted with the usual 'welp, I guess I don't have A/C for the summer'
In case anybody has to be talked out of spending that much money on a car.
People will always blast me for this, but German cars have better ride quality, interiors and overall engineering. Durability too. What they're worse at is total cost of ownership, because of the occasional problem with absurdly expensive systems. But there's a reason people buy them even at the ridiculous prices they cost.
But there's a reason people buy them even at the ridiculous prices they cost.
One way bigger reason is they're fashion statements and status symbols for people who can afford them, having nothing to due with the other reasons you mentioned. Specifically BMW, Benz, Porsche.
Tell me you've never owned one without telling me you've ever owned one.
Plenty of young people want them as fashion statements, sure, but the primary buying audience for new German cars isn't really folks in their 20s.
My wife and I are really happy with our Chevy Bolt EV.
I also have a Chevy Bolt and I love it. I wouldn't buy any current GM EV because they decided to remove Android Auto and Apple Carplay, but if they ever change their mind and put those back, I would be happy to buy another one. Used models are very reasonably priced and potentially eligible for a tax rebate. You could easily get one for under $20k.
lol 10 years too late.
Or if you do still want a Tesla because of the charging and range, buy secondhand. They are good cars, but you'll be associated with the Muskrat.
Do be careful that your used tesla can transfer the free charging to a new owner: https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/does-free-supercharging-transfer-when-you-sell-your-tesla/
I'm not not an asshole to them given the (safe) opportunity. I'm picky based on license plate number ("you knew enough when they began starting with 9s"). I'm also racist though. Live in predominantly Asian neighborhood where Teslas are like the E Class for boomer Chinese grandpas and some millennial families. After election/political conversations with several Chinese friends, I understand "that's white people bullshit" and they don't care about Elon or even think about him. Cool car. Save money. Status. No more, no less. Similar conversations about US/China relations and why many at least considered voting red.
I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what the fuck this comment is attempting to convey.
Just about the only part I understood was when you admitted to being a racist.
I’m also racist though.
Well that's not good. I hope that's just a typo. If you seriously are I really encourage you to meet other people. Once you realize we are all human beings even if look a little different your life will change for the better.
As far as what you mention regarding people being apathetic towards Musk's politics that's fine. I'm objecting to buying a Tesla for two reasons. Yes one of them is Musk's politics but the other reason is based on the fact that a Tesla is an inferior product when compared against competing brands. If you buy a different brand you will get a better longer lasting car and will save even more money. Also regarding status: owning a Tesla is increasingly becoming a stigma so owning a Tesla will no longer be a status symbol.
I'd still recommend Tesla. Or a Rivian. Biggest thing to look at is maximum charging kwh speed for long distances
Most people don't actually use the full range of even a Nissan leaf in a day much less a tesla. I wish people would stop buying things with "but sometimes" mentality. If you end up wanting to long distance road trip just rent a gas car.
I live rural and literally drive 86 miles to work and back... A Nissan leaf would have me covered and be able to finish charging before I was even done sleeping with just a 240v outlet not even a fancy dedicated charger
I'd switch to an e bike but I tow my camper with my Model Y in the summer on road trips.
Oh my God can we not? I'm beyond tired of hearing about this.
Also calling Musk a Nazi is an extreme injustice to actual Nazis who tortured and murdered people by the tens of millions.
I'm tired of hearing that we need to wait for a bigger prison population, more executions, and more wage theft to call them NAZIs.
Trump even wants to soft invade
AustriaCanada and then takePolandMexico.Who said anything about any of that?
Are you under the impression that Nazis are the only people in human history to invade other countries?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/20/world/europe/elon-musk-afd-germany.html
Elon Musk, the world’s richest man and a close adviser to President-elect Donald J. Trump, on Friday endorsed Germany’s far-right party, a group with ties to neo-Nazis whose youth wing has been classified as “confirmed extremist” by German domestic intelligence.
He literally endorsed the AfD in Germany which had two high ranking party members attend a Neo Nazi meeting where they discussed how to revoke citizenship of people that are not German enough