How tankies and MAGAts view the Ukraine war
How tankies and MAGAts view the Ukraine war
I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).
If Russia stops fighting there would be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting there would be no Ukraine.
Well said.
At this stage, since they have fought so well, I'd guess there would just be a much smaller, much weaker Ukraine.
We will likely see this happen now Trump is president. He is too egotistical to not take revenge on them for not playing along with his quid pro quo back in 2019.
The Ukrainian flags in republican yards never meant a thing... They sold Ukraine out at the polls.
That includes only battlefield context. Truth is Russia will at the very best economically and politically fall into a 3rd world country level the moment it loses the war. More probably dissolve into smaller states = there would be no Russia as we know it today anymore.
Literally repeating US State Dept. talking points.
Remember that the original Canadian intent of the UN Peacekeepers was that they would forcibly create and enforce peace.
It was the USSR and the USA that objected to the concept.
Similarly if most countries have a mutual defence pact, no one country will be able to invade another without being at war with literally the whole world.
Ireland has peacekeepers between Israel and Lebanon right now. They wouldn't be there if "create peace" was one of the missions.
Peace must exist, however briefly, and then the peacekeepers place themselves in harm's way to keep the peace.
Extend the mission to militarily "create peace" and suddenly you are just NATO/USA. How can either side trust a peace that was enforced upon them and not call it a defeat, whose borders are disputed for eternity? Every nationalist who wants to stir sentiment can just say "look what the British/Americans/UN imposed on us". Outside forces drawing borders is pretty much the cause of 90% of warfare, civil and otherwise, for the last 80 years.
A Canadian was also the principal author of the UN declaration on human rights, and another was the reason NATO is a political as well as military alliance. We just keep winning!
I don’t understand how other communists can defend Russia at this point. It feels to me like most of them forget that Russia is no longer a communist country.
They’re capitalists. Putin is often using christo-fascist tactics. He’s also pushing for Russian imperialism in very capitalistic ways. Also, Russia was 100 percent the agitators here.
Just because it challenges US worldwide hegemony doesn’t automatically make it good, boys.
Tankies might as well be called CINOs — communists in name only. Their defining feature is reverence towards authoritarian leaders. They revere Putin and Xi as “strong” leaders and completely ignore how little their regimes have in common with the socialist workers paradise Marx envisioned.
I'll stick with "Cosplay Commies".
I especially despise how Putin and Xi were seen as 'strong' leaders, but when shit hit the fan in the last 5 years, they just hid away from repercussions
Do you know what you've done!? You've summoned him! He's like Beetlejuice, say three Marxist terms and he appears. Combie will be here soon.
It's like their version of STOP RESISTING.
My Mom said Russia had to attack Ukraine, because they were trying to join NATO. I asked why she thinks Ukraine was trying to join NATO. I'm still digging for a bedrock of logic.
Part of the problem with game theory and finding a “bedrock of logic” is that game theoretical analysis is often recursive. It’s not a stack of prepositions and conclusions; it’s often a loop. Sort of like a resonance structure. I’ve got my gun aimed at you because your gun is aimed at me because my gun is aimed at you … recursively forever.
My understanding is that the US/NATO and the USSR/Russia, ie the two sides of the Cold War, have maintained a sense of peace and security by maintaining a buffer between the two sides. A buffer of distance, which is relevant because it relates to the time it takes nuclear weapons to travel from one adversarial territory to the other.
The Cuban Missile Crisis was basically caused because Cuba was too close to the USA for nuclear missiles to be stored in a way that the balance of MAD could be maintained.
The public declaration (by Kamala Harris, incidentally) that Ukraine would join NATO is a violation of a promise made by Reagan that NATO would not extend to the border of Russia.
It’s similar to the USSR’s attempt to install nuclear missiles in Cuba, in the sense that it’s simply too close.
That’s my understanding of the motivation behind Russia’s invasion. I’m quite new to all this though.
So it’s less like “Stop resisting!” and more like “Drop the gun!”
My suspicion is that MAD overall is diminishing in its power to stabilize the world militarily, as a result of new military technologies coming into play (space-based weapons, drones, AI, hypersonic missiles, iron dome scenarios) as well as more and more nuclear powers coming online, and the increasing probability of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of non-state actors.
And finally there’s China’s overall rise toward the role of hegemonic power.
The Cold War basically organized itself (and hence organized the influences that minimized military action) around two major powers. Now there’s a third major power that’s rapidly accelerating toward becoming the major power. It’s changing all the equations that balanced out in the 1970s, 80s, etc.
I'm really curious how or why it works. Do they hate US so much that anyone against the US seems a hero to them, despite being off the same kind but pretending to be a communist/socialist?
I am curious about this as well. At least in some cases, it seems to be due to “alternate facts”, e.g., https://lemmy.ca/comment/13198294
Are they saying that the U.S. was preparing Ukraine for war in 2014... Which Russia had started moving their forces in 2013 and started the invasion in February of 2014. It's like how people try to say "well Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if Trump had still been president"... When Russia mobilized their troops and equipment and marched them there for the invasion while Trump was still President.
That was an… interesting read 😅
Damn, that's alternate as fuck 🤢
That's exactly the reason (even if they don't 100% admit it) for the communist parties in my country.
A surprising portion of people in the northern hemisphere think that a person having lots of money is literally exactly the same thing as a person having lots of blessings from [deity]. They see that Russia is run by oligarchs, and that since those oligarchs command lots of currency, they are inherently chosen by [diety] to always be correct.
There is rarely, if ever, support for Putin. What is more typical is a recognition the USSR was a better entity than both what it replaced and what replaced it. So there is usually the connection that the US is the reason Russia is the way it is, which is usually lauded as 'USA bad'.
So even though America was the global superpower after the fall of the USSR: Putin, (or at least someone like him), was wanted in power. 'Keep rootin for Putin' wasn't just a pundit book 20 years ago.
All in all when the goal is eradicating communism at all costs, you wind up with war mongering right wingers in their stead: and that's the perspective every communist I have interacted with has come from.
I don't even know what they (western tankies) get from this. Average dumbass Russian only cares about his ass, and the pretended "glory". There is no "Conservative brotherhood which spans across the ocean". They don't speak your language, they don't have the same problem, and they hate YOU with passion, because on average, they are racist and dumb.
So my only hypothesis is that tankies think (??) that by going "contrarian" they show how smart they are, and that "did the research" lol.
No, it's because "America bad". There's a lot of reasons to hate America, and the drip feeding of munitions to Ukraine is one of them. I think we should have been sending everything from the start with the only restriction being no hitting civilian targets. A million 155 shells a week. Tomahawks. Predator drones. Hell, even F-15s. I agree, end the war, but end it in a Ukrainian victory with their borders restored.
Would have been nice to send a message to Vlad on day 1.
"Turnabout is fair play"
The best way to minimize the overall violence of a fight is to use enough force in the first moments to end the fight.
Generally speaking. Maybe.
Tankies entire world view is formed around hating the US.
They will glorify terrible regimes that literally commit genocides and straight up murder thousands of innocents just because that regime is in opposition to US influence.
They use left wing language, but they do not care about leftist issues. They do not care about disabled people getting focibly euthanised, about anyone who dares critique the regime being forcibly silenced, about minorities being genocided (unless the US or NATO does it), that their “socialist states” literally have billionaires while others starve. They think it’s all US propaganda. (Alternatively, they’ll admit part of it and say it’s for the greater good).
I'm not a tankie, but I probably am what everyone in this thread is calling a "tankie", so here's my answer:
Yes, it is extremely bad that Russia invaded Ukraine. The ideal scenario would have been Ukraine quickly repelling the invasion when it happened. But we don't live in magic fantasy world where everyone gets what they deserve. We live in the real world, where Ukraine cannot possibly defeat Russia in a war. The option which saves the most Ukrainian lives is a negotiated peace, with Russia getting much more of what they want than we would like.
All that is achieved by pouring more weapons into Ukraine is prolonging the meatgrinder for years, wiping out an entire generation of Ukrainians and risking a global nuclear war.
Ukraine had a negotiated peace before the 2022 invasion, after the 2014 invasion. Why would a 2025 negotiated peace be any more reliable?
Just „take your land“?
Looks to me also like „destroy your culture“ and „torture, maim, rape and kill your friends and family“.
Well, they did say "Destroy you and take your land".
Though I agree that "destroy" is doing some heavy lifting in this sentence.
You forgot the person standing to the other side saying, "But what about that time when America...!?"
I know it's not relevant but it's funny (and sad) how you can replace the two flags with Israel and Palestine and it still works.
Only switch the Ukraine guy with a palastinian child.
And its not MAGAts and tankies backing it but, neolibs and centrist conservatives (with the MAGAts as well).
perfectly agree with the meme, that said I've tried to make the same argument to people IRL and their response usually is "well Ukraine provoked them by trying to join NATO" and being the absolute dumbass that I am, I can never come up with a decent answer on the spot.
does anyone have a cool one liner to use or am I stuck with having to explain the various geopolitical issuesThe idea of Ukraine joining NATO was literally unimaginable before Russian aggression. After the fall of the soviet union there were multiple agreements like the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine and Budapest Memorandum that basically established Ukraine as a sovereign and neutral nation under the protection of the west and east. Even after Russian interventions in Ukraine and finally the taking of Crimea, NATO members like Germany were still vocal about never letting Ukraine in.
Also if Russia truly cared about NATO expansion, how come we barely hear anything about Finland and Sweeden? I occasionally even forget they're a part of it now.
NATO members like Germany were still vocal about never letting Ukraine in.
I sometimes think that it was exactly because they expected things to go as they did. If they let Ukraine in, they would need to
weasel out of helpinghelp, after all
The husband who beats his wife analogy might work. "She deserved it, she thought about going to the police" Another thing, even if it was predictable doesn't make it wrong to help Ukraine no matter what.
The husband who beats his wife analogy might work.
These are the same people who support Trump and putin soooo
It basically comes down to this: being a sovereign nation means being allowed to choose your own alliances.
Calling it a "provocation" is denying Ukraine sovereignty over their own country.
"So a nation is not allowed to make its own decision about defense or else Russia just gets to have it?"
"Nations beg to join NATO which is very reluctant and has a long drawn out entry process"
And the annexation of crimea was not provoking and pressuring them to search for defense from NATO?
MAGAts are either too stupid to realize or too fragile to acknowledge that they're getting ass-fucked by putin. It's just pathetic.
It's so bizarre to see those old Soldiers of Fortune readers, with their "Better dead than red" tee shirts, all now rooting for Russia.
Are you aware the Biden administration hasn’t spoken to Putin’s staff in two years?
Is there, in your analogy, a macho, straight, totally non anal-sex-related kind of dignity in that refusal to communicate with a nuclear adversary?
I just listened to Tucker Carlson interview Sergei Lavrov. Is that me just going to town on Putin’s veiny cock? Is this whole thing just a big revealer of who’s really gay and who’s not?
I just listened to Tucker Carlson interview Sergei Lavrov.
Thanks for giving us ample reason to not care about your opinions.
Yes. You are going to town on his weiny cock.
For the fucking tankies and MAGAts, if the French and King Louis XVI would have turned their backs on the US colonials from 1775 to 1783, the Red Coats would have crushed your rebellion and you would have been another Dominion like Canada. Hang on, someone press reset.
You mean I would have had universal healthcare?!
Mother fucking French...
😂 ...indeed.
So I understand that MAGA is U.S. based, but how many of the "tankies" do you really think are from the U.S.
Red-painted fascists just can't help themselves. War is Completely Justified Resistance And Blowback until someone actually fights back, at which point it's Pointlessly Extending The Conflict
/me sees title. “Oh, these comments are gonna be fun…”
Even this place is full or russian propaganda? Referring to some comments.
It's generally pretty easy to spot. Just look for a short inflammatory sentence without any substance or relevance. They try to fan the flames of conservative meme culture to try and rile up angry and useless debate.
Definitely.
Haha. That's great.
I have to ask, why do people simp for putin? not russia, but putin?
Can you give an example of someone who doesn’t simp for russia, but simps for Putin?
Are there any arguments from those in favor of supplying weapons to Ukraine that isn’t some kind of sexual shaming?
Are there any arguments from those in favor of supplying weapons to Ukraine that isn’t some kind of sexual shaming?
"Genocide is bad and should be resisted", but I understand Trump voters aren't a fan of that idea.
Wait, why are tankies siding with magas? I’ve been intentionally away for a minute, what did I miss?
Did something major happen in the last three days? Or is this the usual redirection of hate after we’ve found something to rally around?
Maga-Communism is a thing for a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Hinkle
Fash and red fash are basically the same thing loyal to different empires.
multi-polar imperialism
It was never about land, it's about not letting Ukraine become more westernly oriented. https://youtube.com/watch?v=MhpoNL1gZbw
When we keep talking about it just being about land we let Russia get closer to their actual goals.
"become more westernly oriented" is a strange way to say "stop being a Russian vassal state"
It's the American way.
Similar to how libs view the genocide in palestine.
Can someone show me where all the tankies are? All I ever see is anti-tankie propaganda like this and its seems like a straw man to me. Where are the Leftists who defend Russian aggression?
Did you ask that before or after scrolling down and reading the comments doing exactly that?
In this fucking post, for starters.
/c/endlesswar
As a Mexican, it's always "fun" to read this American comic strips.
It's funny that if you change Russia for Israel and Ukraine for Palestine suddenly the "pro-war" group become "anti-war".
Only funny if you think it's "a pro war" stance and not "Anti-civillians-getting-slaughtered-by-an-oppressive-outsized-imperialist-neighbor".
Isn't it the same Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Palestine?
It's also fun how they don't even reply, just downvote. Reddit lives on lemmy.world.
Reddit is actually quite good on Ukraine support. The bad thing about Reddit is that Spez has allowed Israeli brigades to bandwagon and sneak in support for "Israel at War" as if it was comparable.
Downvotes, frankly, Lemmy users are asking for it by not making downvotes transparent. It's really telling when an account that isn't really active jumps to downvote deeply nested comments., or when it's the same accounts downvoting your comments across different communities where they otherwise hadn't participated on until they began downvoting.
Yeah I think it is a mistake to have some people viewing who up votes and who down votes and others not seeing it. If the data is there, it should just be viewable by all, otherwise the "bad actors" you are worried about doing wrong things will still find ways to do them, and the standard person is just blinded from seeing those actions.
I just disable the view of the voting system. That fixes Lemmy for me, but once in a while when I'm not in an app or I'm logged out, I get to see the downvotes.
Tankies also downvote. Different flavours of Nazis.
Im not sure about other anti-war people but I can speak for myself. Like how Assad was clearly evil so is Russia, their actions are absolutely inexcusable. However, I think it is a valid question to ask how much good does foreign intervention do? It didnt do much good in Syria or Iraq and I dont think its doing much good in Ukraine. At this point Ukraine is another US proxy, who exactly does that help?
Syria and Iraq didn't ask for our help, Ukraine does. I think that's also one of the reasons.
Well, except Ukraine is a unified and largely homogeneous nation with no threat of extremism and factionalism if they either win or at least keep their sovereignty intact after the war. The Middle East and Afghanistan have completely different culture, history, dynamics and variables unlike Ukraine, which is why supporting rebels there proved more troublesome and complicated.
Seems to me like foreign intervention just did a whole lot in Syria. Just not on Russia's part.
You can add Libya to the list. Slave trade has been booming there since Gaddafi was forcibly ousted.
EDIT: lot of downvotes, no replies. I know I talk a lot about gaza in this comment, but that's just because that's something I know about. I'm way less informed about the Ukraine conflict. Ultimately this comment is just asking for what you believe and why you believe it, read the final sentence first.
I kind of tapped out on paying attention to this conflict, I'm already losing enough sleep over the genocide in Gaza.
With the conflict in Gaza, my opinion is that a ceasefire would be best, followed by an abolition of the apartheid state by means similar to how the one in SA was abolished (forced by global divestment like that enforced by 1986 US anti-apartheid act, etc). On a moral level, this solution feels unsatisfying. So much land has been stolen from the Palestinians, and part of me wants them to fight and win it all back, so advocating for a peaceful resolution hurts. But I also know that realistically, continuing to pursue armed conflict will only result in more Palestinian deaths, and more loss of territory, so I reluctantly join protests in favor of a ceasefire.
I realize that the conflicts are different. Russia is much more powerful than Israel, the Palestinian ethnic cleansing has been going on for decades, etc. So I don't know what to feel about the Ukraine conflict. The pro-peace POV I've already heard. Ceasefire, concede Crimea to Russia, Ukraine becomes non-NATO zone, and the killing stops. For the pro-war people in the Ukraine conflict, what are you hoping for, and what facts make you feel this hope is realistic?
The thing is sort of similar to the Gaza conflict. Who guarantees a ceasefire, who takes up arms to defend that ceasefire if necessary? Precisely there lies the difference. Russia is nuclear power and has veto power in the security counsel of the UN. Amy nation that were to guarantee Ukraine would inevitably get into a major conflict with Russia - a major military power. And because only Western nations are interested in guaranteeing Ukraine, if Russia were to violate the ceasefire - it would be immediately involve NATO and you'd have WW3. Now here's a point that is similar to the Gaza conflict. Russia has a track-record of violating all contracts and agreements they signed. There's the memorandum that forced Ukraine to return the nukes they had after the dissolution of the USSR- in return of sovereignty of Russia. There's a signed allowance of Russia for Ukraine to join NATO and the EU from the early 2000s. And more than I can recall from memory.
While it would technically be possible to force Israel to do what the US/EU wants, by many means. It would be difficult to force groups such as Hamas, Hisbollah, the Houthis to do anything without Iran backing and enforcing such a deal. Something I highly doubt to happen, without Iran losing all backing by other countries. No one can force Russia to do anything besides possibly China, which they won't. The US/NATO could as well, but that would mean direct military engagement, something everyone is desperate to avoid - because no one knows how sane Russian leadership would act in retaliation.
Frankly though I believe that all attempts to pacify the world right now are not in the interest of neither the parties in the Gaza conflict as well as Iran, Russia, China and North Korea. They are clearly showing over and over again with their hybrid warfare that any and all attempts at a peaceful solution would necessitate a believable threat of the US to actually dismantle the entire Russian military.
EDIT: lot of downvotes, no replies.
Lol your comment is currently 4 hours old, and you have a reply that's 3 hours old. Maybe try waiting more than an hour this isn't reddit. It might take longer to get a reply, but it probably won't just be a stupid meme.
Typical RadLib American imperialist Lemmy Post
TIL American imperialism is when Russia's neighbours don't let themselves be invaded by Russia
Those words all mean things!
Russia invading Ukraine is wrong. But the world is full of wrong things. And until America fixes its problems at home, it is deeply immoral to drain the economy and weapon reserves and put our citizenry at risk. Anyone who believes the politicians usual garbage about "protecting democracy" and "standing up to imperialism" is a moron.
Did you know that "own people first/eigen volk eerst" is the slogan of a Belgian far-right neo-nazi party?
There is nothing immoral about helping a people in need.
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue. It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine. Tolerating or believing such BS ensures your own oppression. Every US war is tolerated because you are brainwashed into stories of their leader deserving US aggression. War/sanctions is not for your benefit. Pressing for nuclear war with your absurd lies and tolerance for demonic diminishment of world is bad for you too.
There seems to be a "wokeness" over propaganda for Israel genocide, Syria insurection, and every single other war and coup the US is involved in, and the corporatist oligarchist propaganda subjugating you, and meant to subjugate you. When you humanize such disgusting lying propaganda as Russia is the one who is the aggressor in Ukraine, your idiocy fully guarantees your oppression, and you get these disappointing expectations that NYT can be "left wing" while neocon/Israel first oligarchist liars instead.
The fuck are you on about? Yanukovych, a known Russian puppet, being deposed means that US and Ukraine instigated the war?
Most of these "woke" people are also against the genocide of Palestinians, but go on I suppose.
Most of these “woke” people are also against the genocide of Palestinians, but go on I suppose.
Unfortunately, not sure about that,
How many people want Gaza, and Palestine to do the peace, without even talking about a two states solutions..
I often see, "we want the peace" but, that just mean, israel, you should calm on terror. Nothin more.
Its really like this meme, but for Palestine,I'm woke,
Yanukovych was not a Russian puppet. IMF scuttled EU deal that he worked to sign. Unrealistic/electoral suicide conditions were placed on IMF loan. He wisely chose a Russian loan instead with no conditions. Black flag (US/Nazi) attack on protesters blamed on Yanukovych was the coup. CIA/State handpicked replacements for government, nazi massacre in Odessa, and apartheid ethnostate laws, led to liberation of Crimea. Russia's peaceful Minsk process to provide autonomy to Donbas was used as a delay tactic by Empire to arm Ukrainians, but implicit in their participation was acknowledging Ukraine's nazi problem, and nazi shelling of Donbas. Zelensky admitted his electoral campaign to implement Minsk and denazify Ukraine was a lie. Russian patience telling Ukraine it was time to end the BS with border troop amassments was met with increased massacres of Donbas civilians.
1 month after special operation started, Ukraine had agreed to Russia's peace terms. US/UK bribed Zelensky into suiciding to the last Ukrainian instead. Blinken/US admitted it is a "strategic imperative to diminish Russia" which cannot be a view simulataneously held without provoking/perpetuating the war that is sold as a jobs program for weapons workers, and "future American control" (Blackrock is American and freely gives all its profits to all Americans) of Ukraine's resources.
When pathethic evil lies that the 2014 Ukraine coup had any "Ukrainians love" component to it is repeated, you implicitly support every other lie of the US empire. Yeltsin was awesome liberator, and Putin terrible and corrupt is simply brainwashing based on each leader's level of US empire puppetry. The only puppets in the world are those loyal to CIA. The rest are doing their best to survive through alliances/trade not subjugated to US subjugation.
Putin said in a speech in Feb 2022 that the idea of Ukraine as an independent nation is a fiction and blames Lenin for its existence. He has always believed the entire area belongs to Russia as he said it himself.
Irrelevant context of insulting Ukraine. All that matters is conditions for ending/avoiding war. Not history that in restrospect proves Ukrainians to be assholes.
Peace-loving Russia could easily end this War of Ukrainian Aggression by no longer having its military inside Ukrainian borders. For some reason, they just love peace too hard to stop shooting.
Is true, i read that on flathearth.net
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war
k
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue.
So you're saying Russia doesn't want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine.
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
So you’re saying Russia doesn’t want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
When Ukraine agrees to stay neutral and not join NATO. That simple. Same as prior to war, or 1 month after war. They would idealy denazify, or at least eliminate persecutory anti-Russian laws, or if they don't allow referendums for anti-nazi regions to join Russia.
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
The siege of Kyiv did motivate Ukrainian peace talks. Was likely a mistake to withdraw in good faith based on agreement in talks.
What an insane rambling of lies you've put together there.
You have apparently never lived under Soviet occupation and I strongly suggest you read up on it before you even try to spew such garbage again.
Weird. Even the Libertarian CATO institute agrees with you:
The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War. It’s Not ‘Siding With Putin’ to Admit It
lie.
Russia tried to avoid this.
it was Ukraine who violated Minsk agreements.Bot detected. Russia violated 'Trilateral Statement' in 1993, when Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for security. And what do you think happened next, dum dum?
Ok. I'll bite. Uh... What?
Weird, even Bill Clinton’s Secretary of Defense William Perry understood this:
The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace.
Weird that Russia invaded the sovereign nation of Chechnya murdering their democratically elected leader then just took the country saying it belonged to them.
This has nothing to do with the west. It's just Russia doing what Russia has always done centuries before the U.S. existed. Putin only cares about taking over lands to make Russia what it used to be and will use any excuse. Allies in the west(like you) are only tiny toys Russia has been using.
NATO "expansion" is all an excuse. If Tyler beat up Timmy and a few kids in the class realized Tyler was a bully, and agreed that if any of them got attacked by Tyler they would all help out, and then Jenna hears of this alliance and asks to be a part of it, because she doesn't want to get beat up by Tyler either, it doesn't mean Tyler gets to beat up Jenna and steal her property. It means Tyler should stop assaulting others and stealing things all together and play nicer with other kids in the class.
