The Gordon Ramsey of software
In a parallel universe, there's a version of Linus who runs a restaurant that makes noma look like a taco bell.
It's pretty funny that Gordon Ramsey is actually a sweet guy and plays up the angry cook guy on TV.
Eh, this is somewhat true, and he's dug into this a few times. Some is put up for TV, but he's inclined to be annoyed at people that call themselves chefs, take people's money, and serve them sub-par products. In a few shows, like the one with Angela Hartnett where she took over The Connaught, it showed that he's still an angry dude, but that it was needed because he's taking over the restaurant at one of London's finest hotels. Michelin Star places seem to be the same boiling pot of bullying and anger to strive for the best possible quality.
Some chefs, like J Kenji Lopez Alt have called it and him out several times on it, because it's a very damaging practice, and one that spreads throughout the industry from wannabe Ramsay's that thinks intimidation is needed to make food.
I'm sure Ramsay is a lovely guy in person, but I would hate to work for him.
Linus is also said to be a sweet guy IRL and only became the angry kernel guy on the mailing list.
The tone may be a bit harsh but it's muuuuch better than how he used to be during his most toxic days. This is how he used to talk: https://www.networkworld.com/article/706908/security-torvalds-to-bad-security-devs-kill-yourself-now.html
Linus definitely got much better at handling his anger since his public apology in 2018.
[I]f you have anything to do with security in a distro, and think that my kids (replace ‘my kids’ with ‘sales people on the road’ if you think your main customers are businesses) need to have the root password to access some wireless network, or to be able to print out a paper, or to change the date-and-time settings, please just kill yourself now. The world will be a better place,” he wrote.
Hah love it
reads the article
considers the triggers prompting the outburst
He’s… not wrong.
Not right, but definitely not wrong. There is a big difference between effective security and total security. He was dumping on total security, which in many ways is worse than no security at all.
Indeed, I think he just wanted to get the point across that it is a dangerous approach.
It was never a question of being technically right or wrong. Linus' realization was that his inflammatory language was viewed as permission by other people in the Linux community to be verbally abusive to their peers. People who had been valuable contributors to Linux projects explained to Linus how they had been berated by colleagues, and when challenged those colleagues cited Linus' own language.
What Linus wants is working code, and you don't get working code by giving tacit permission to your most aggressive & abrasive community members to attack others.
That's not even his worst stuff. That seems pretty tame imo.
I mean, telling someone to kill themselves is something that I've heard a lot, it usually never means "go and literally do it", it's more of an expression... But the fact that it was used in that context is just disturbing.
I could write another rant on the whole American ‘I take offense with that’ mentality. It’s political correctness of the worst kind, and as far as I’m concerned. Jokes are often offensive. If you get offended, the problem is solidly at your end. Think about it for a while,...
He has a point there though IMO, things are way out if control with political correctness.
Have you noticed how almost every meme here on Lemmy goes in shitposts? My guess is, it's a safe bet, almost anything goes there, so I won't be downvoted to oblivion just because I wrote female instead of woman. Hell, I know I do it for that very reason.
Ah, this happened two days ago? Further reading:
Linus Torvalds flames Google kernel contributor over filesystem suggestion
Here's the specific response and it's even better than anticipated.
https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04208.html
I love this part:
the next time I see you copying VFS functions (or any other core functions) without udnerstanding what the f*ck they do, and why they do it, I'm going to put you in my spam-filter for a week.
Like after all that he will just block him for a week 🤣 I would block them for a year minimum or forever...
His response to Linus was interesting to read.
Oh and especially this comment further down in the conversation...
As it is, I feel like I have to waste my time checking all your patches, and I'm saying "it's not worth it".
I'm basically done with this. I never said I was a VFS guy and I learned a lot doing this. I had really nobody to look at my code even though most of it went to the fsdevel list. Nobody said I was doing it wrong.
Sorry to have wasted your time
Oh that's fun.
flames
Now there's a bit of internet slang I haven't heard since vBulletin!
You should do one of these a day.
The Daily Torvalds
Agreed
Also, someone should make a dedicated community to Linus Torvalds quotes.
Not mine stole it.
I've made like... probably 50 or 60 memes, but they're not that good.
I’d be so happy if he was yelling at me directly
"It is not what you say that matters but the manner in which you say it; there lies the secret of the ages." - William Carlos Williams
To be honest, yes, this is very true. Politicans use this all the time... and I just hate it when they talk for like 30 minutes and basically say nothing.
"hurrr durrrr beaners!" -- Carlos Mencia
That's what I tell myself nearly every day.
Linux "Based" Torvalds
I literally just wrapped a web app I've been working on for a few months. I'm so proud of myself. I take a deserved break and see this.
I hate everybody.
lol 🤣🤣🤣
I want this man along with Richard Stallman and the creator of Slackware to be immortal
Patrick Volkerding. It's amazing he's still managing his own Linux distro after all of these years. And I'm eternal grateful for him refusing to adopt systemd and pulseaudio when they were both not mature and stable enough and most other distros didn't care.
I love everything about Slackware except for the occasional weirdness and the absolute lack of package management from the distro itself (discounting third-party tools)
Meeh... Stallman, no, but Linus, yes, most definitely. I love his sense of humor to be honest, watch his AMAs from time to time, they're like standup to me 😂.
Both. Period.
There is no problem with reusing code, as long as you take some time to understand it.
that is the i-didn't-invent-linux way to put it
Linus needs to make no corrections to his behaviour. His apology was needless.
He only flames those who make dumb mistakes, should know better, keep doing it, and don't respect the gravity of the situation. Linux is used on MARS. Pretend to care.
There is a pattern to the people who get upset when they've earned a rebuke from Linus. Those people could get over themselves.
Well, kind of.
Linus needs to call out bad code, it's an important part of Linux's quality control. He doesn't need to tell people to kill themselves.
Yea anger issues is no joke
That happened in 2012 and a lot has changed with Linus since then.
This reply ^
The only thing worse than code I don't understand is code I do understand that's literally been copied and pasted sixteen times in the same file.
Literally encapsulation, its the first fucking thing they teach you in Dev 101, my fucking god people please I'm begging you!
I went to school for actuarial sciences but im basically an overpaid python programmer. If an actual dev evee see my code, they would shot in the face for sure (at least my boss thinks im a magician because I do in half an hour in poorly optimized python code processes it took him days to do on excel). I don't even know what encapsulation even means lmao.
Basically if you need the same logic in two places instead of copying it to the second place you make it into a function and use that function in both places.
That way if you need that logic to change you only need to make that edit once regardless of whether you use it one time or one thousand times.
I don’t even know what encapsulation even means lmao.
It's basically a fancy way to reuse code.
Samir! You're breaking the build!
'Shut up'
Dude, you don't have to be a dev to write code. There are many self-taught coders out there. I do agree that they should read a book or two regarding coding pracices, but hey, you don't like it, rewrite it 🤷.
Me, personally, if someone else made it, I need it and I don't have time to meddle (I usually don't), I just use it. With all do respect, fuck coding practices, I got more important things in my life to worry about.
Meh, maintainability is king. Sticking to the letter of the style law is probably not necessary, but ignoring badly structured code now is going to bite you in the ass when it comes time to change any of it.
It's like a metaphor for Linux itself
Are you allowed to make changes to the kernel? Sure, go ahead.
But FAFO applies. If you come at the king, you'd best not miss.
Why didn't he use any swear words? I am confused.
Insulting without using swear words requires more skill.
Idk Gordon Ramsay is very creative
He's been working on being more creative in his social conflict resolving skills.
At this point he's to coding what Gordon Ramsay is to fine dining.
What a fucking legend.
Potentially hot take: I wish that more free and open source project leaders had the same "no-bullshit" attitude as Torvalds. It's a great way to cull out entitled people who put their own feelings over actual contribution, thus having negative impact over the project.
And every single other alternative to this behaviour would lead to worse outcomes, either to the project or the patch submitter.
I don't disagree.
I just wished he stopped making it personal. There's a huge difference between calling a person stupid and shitty versus calling the implementation stupid and shitty.
He rants, points out the flaws, calls the contributor a moron, and you have to waits a few emails before Linus actually provides a teaching moment. That kinda sucks.
Looks like you have not been a part of any Linux community before 🤔...
What’s your opinion on this alternative verbiage?
You copied that function without understanding why it does what it does, and as a result your code is flawed & inefficient. This poor practice is a pattern I've noticed.
It will fall on deaf ears
It's garbage.
My opinion is that it is:
- Less likely to be effective. There's a good chance that the submitter won't get the message, and that they'll submit another pull request, five minutes later, with the exact same issue that made the first PR to be rejected. And again. Again. Again.
- More insulting. Now you aren't just saying "your code is garbage"; you're saying "your code is garbage and you're a fragile little thing that will break apart if handled incorrectly".
- As likely to create drama as the original verbiage, given that the drama is originated in human nature - we humans want to believe (even if outright false) that we're "contributing", even when we are not.
There's many ways to point out the issues with the patch without being a jerk. The patch wouldn't have made it in either way, and maybe there could've been more useful conversations about the concerns (re: tar) that were brought up in the previous message.
There’s many ways to point out the issues with the patch without being a jerk.
Yes, if you don't mind pointing out again those exact same issues again, because the same person (or potentially someone else) did the same mistake again, as they failed to understand the gravity of the issue again. And again, again, again.
...or alternatively you give the person a good smacking. That's what Torvalds did, while pointing out those issues again. Carrot and stick
maybe there could’ve been more useful conversations about the concerns (re: tar) that were brought up in the previous message.
Likely not - that tar example was brought to highlight that Torvalds' suggestion would cause a regression; that's it. The discussion itself reached a dead end, the solution wouldn't be to keep the conversation about that, but someone submitting a patch that would neither cause said regression nor misuse the VSF functions.
I'll reply to myself to avoid editing the above (for transparency).
Linux users in this post: think on all issues that you had with your system. Bugs, papercuts, devs assuming use case, regressions (shit stopping working), dependency hell, anything. How many of those issues apply to the kernel, in a way that you can say "the kernel devs fucked it up"? For me, never.
I have a hypothesis, that I do not know the truth value of, that the kernel not annoying the shit out of us users is directly related to Torvalds' propensity to tell people "your code is GARBAGE", instead of sugar-coating it. And that free + open source projects where project leaders don't do this tend to be crappier. (Does anyone here know a good way to falsify this hypothesis?)
It's half this, and half an explicit policy "we do not break user space". Together it meant that if you did anything that screwed up the user space you got told about it at length.
Now Linux culture is established enough that it only really needs the policy, and not the cussing people out to enforce it.
Famous email about it here: https://linuxreviews.org/WE_DO_NOT_BREAK_USERSPACE
He's keeping his promises. He didn't swear now did he? Hahaha only someone like Linus Trovalds would have his business life upended and be forced into an agreement that he would stop swearing at people
Copy pasta is a dish best served cold.
It's disappointing to see this kind of stuff still happening. Adults do not act this way. Do better, Linus.
Mistakes in the Linux kernel can cause damages that are measured in millions and even get people killed.
If you can't be bothered to focus on your work and get criticism when you fuck up, work on something else.
Linus' message here isn't personal, his criticism is limited to the product created by the person. Something that any mentally healthy adult should have no problem with.
You write "thanks for being so diligent, Linus, and forcefully correcting people when it's required" oddly. Typo?
Did you know that you can be diligent without yelling at people?
Linus has full control over what code makes it into the kernel, yelling is not required to accomplish that.
Yes, adults act this way.
On the other hand, adults do not act as if the world revolved around their precious-oh-so-precious feelings, or as fragile little pieces of junk that break apart unless handled very, veeeery carefully.
Yeah it's absolutely disgusting and disappointing that it's 2024 and people still try to code into the kernel in such a sucky and absolutely moronic way that they have to get set straight by The Linus.
back when i tried being in a group of writers of the semicolon or python that email would have had two more agains after the primary again.
thus i doesn't semicolon professionally any mores
all hail the Eternal Leader of Juche Linux!
