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The comment below by @nomadjoanne is incorrect, since a COVID-19 infection has a higher risk for myocarditis than what the vaccine can cause. However, I'm choosing to keep it up because there are a lot of comments afterwards outlining WHY it is incorrect, and that's helpful for dealing with the disinformation.
I'm open to reviewing this again if people think it should be removed anyway
The vaccine was clearly rushed into production and saved a lot of vulnerable people's lives. That does not mean it does not have risks that, for younger and healthier people, those might outweigh the benefits.
But public hysteria and groupthink dictated that it had to be coerced on people.
The vaccine underwent the exact same rigorous testing that literally every other vaccine or medication gets. The only difference is that COVID vaccines were given a free pass to the front of the line at each step necessary. As well, due to them having a much shorter timeline and higher competition, it was economical to run multiple tests in parallel that would normally have been done in series.
It wasn't "rushed" as in sloppy, it was "rushed" in that it was given priority in the various governmental queues.
Perhaps, now that the vaccine has been around for years and there's plenty of data on its efficacy and risks, you might cite some of those risks?
Because the data I've seen shows that infection is still much worse for your health than vaccination, regardless of whether or not you are "young and healthier."
I would be very interested to see what data you have that shows otherwise. I quite like being proven wrong.
The vaccine went so fast because most of the part was already known and they had solution for other covid variants. They only needed to adapt it to attack the correct part of this covid 19 virus. It wasn't a new study. It wasn't rushed. And this person wasn't healthy but terminal. Healthy, lol.
I don't understand this logic. It had to be quickly developed because the entire world population was affected by COVID. We're talking about millions of deaths. Economies halted, everything literally went stand still and you expected the vaccine to take 3 years to develop?
I'm sure it might have sounded scary to have medicine developed so rapidly but I don't think you realize the scale at how it was developed because so many countries and companies dumped a ton of money researching a cure out the door as fast as possible.
Sure there are side-effects but in that case the side effects were worth having versus the deaths of high risk individuals.
Someone needing an organ transplant doesn't sound like "younger" or "healthier" people.
According to your criteria, regardless of vaccine efficacy: this sounds like someone that should have been vaccinated.
This is stupid on several levels, but I ain't got time for all that so I'll just point out that this lady wasn't younger or healthier, given that she died without an organ transplant, and had she received a transplant she would be one of the vulnerable people on immunosupprressants. So even this stupid ass argument doesn't apply in this situation.
Yup. Literally the worst thing that could have happened to her had she taken the vaccine happened to her because she didn't take the vaccine. Maybe they'll put a monument to her on top of the hill that she chose to die on.
I was hoping to turn into a magnetic monkey with 5G tracking chips. No such luck.
The best few minutes of the pandemic for me was watching my 15 year old autistic daughter disassemble and completely humiliate a reality-denying mid-50s angry man at a farmers market. It was glorious.
Nope. That's why the courts allow transplant coordinators to require that you be vaccinated. This vaccine was so incredibly safe that it's ridiculous that she chose to die rather than getting it. I mean, literally the worst thing that could have happened to her because she got the vaccine happened to her because she didn't get the vaccine.
Fact is, there's more people in need of transplants and simply not enough viable organs to go around.
I'm not going to fault the transplant committee for denying someone over a vaccine. Simply, why give this very finite and very precious resource to someone when they're just going to go get themselves unalived over something as dumb as a 100% preventable disease or something just because they have a brain malfunction that makes them think vaccines are bad. Especially when so many other people are literally dying without the same organs, who are more than happy to follow doctors instructions to ensure they can live a long and prosperous life with the replacement they desperately need.
It's all rather silly.
The thing that probably bothers me the most about organ transplants in general is that if cloning research and stem cell research was allowed to proceed properly, it's entirely possible that science could find a way to grow you a replacement of your own organs.... Apart from genetic problems causing organs to fail, it would almost completely eliminate the entire demand for organs. But no, some idiots don't want cloning because it upsets their imaginary friend.
On a related note, go fill out your donor card people. Even if you're one of those "nobody will want my organs" type of people, do it anyways. The transplant people will figure out if your organs are viable when you no longer need them anymore. Let them figure that shit out for you. Just check the box to be a donor and don't think about it any further.
On a related note, go fill out your donor card people. Even if you’re one of those “nobody will want my organs” type of people, do it anyways. The transplant people will figure out if your organs are viable when you no longer need them anymore. Let them figure that shit out for you. Just check the box to be a donor and don’t think about it any further.
and the stupid rumour about "the doctors will kill me to save 8 others" is bullshit. I am glad my donor signed. His wife said she didn't want him to, but seeing me live because of his selflessness made her reconsider, and she tells everyone to be a donor.
Don't just put it on your license either. In many places that isn't legally binding. Have a conversation with your partner/children/parents who are going to have legal authority over your body while brain dead and tell them you want to be a donor.
Language will evolve naturally over time. But to claim that hoping your children are intelligent/physically healthy is a form of eugenics is absurd. If QAnon was left-leaning, this is the kind of shit they would say.
If you aren’t gonna take steps to protect yourself, you’re not worthy. There’s a long list and many people who will work hard to safeguard such a gift.
“Taking this vaccine offends my conscience. I ought to have the choice about what goes into my body, and a lifesaving treatment cannot be denied to me because I chose not to take an experimental treatment for a condition — COVID-19 — which I do not have and which I may never have,” Lewis said in an affidavit.
I guess she died with a clear conscious. 🙄
Seriously though, taking an organ from the waitlist and then inevitably getting COVID while immunocompromised is .. not very cool.. for the next person on the waitlist.
I wonder if she did die with a clear conscience considering she withdrew the money donated at her fundraiser (which I find hilarious that they have a "send prayers" button on the page) so that she could live. They said in an earlier update that they expect everyone to be fair minded and not request a refund, but people can reach out for a refund. Very manipulative. Also, she didn't leave a will and the funds are "unfortunately" locked while they figure out her estate. The whole thing is worth a read, if you don't mind puking a little in your mouth.
Ugh. $125k to get an organ transplant in the US without the vaccine. Also, the stupid tweet speculating that vaccines aren't required to donate organs. Nope, they absolutely aren't. Idiots. Imbeciles. Morons. It's absolutely infuriating that people can be so willingly ignorant.
Sure, hospitals willing and able to do organ transplants are rare, but that's because organs to transplant are exceptionally rare. Other than kidney donations, and I think liver (IIRC), all organ transplants require someone to die, and to die under pretty controlled conditions so that their organs are still in a usable condition. For every organ transplant that occurs, there are a dozen others that die waiting.
To give this woman an organ transplant is to deny someone else an organ transplant. The question is not whether she should get an organ transplant despite not taking every reasonable measure to increase the odds of that organ contributing to a longer and healthier life; but rather who else dies if she doesn't want to take every reasonable measure.
The fundamental calculus of organ donation is not everyone who needs one will get one. Who will benefit the most? This is absolutely the practical application of those philosophical paradoxes where you are asked to pick which life to save under various circumstances.
Her whole case reeks of the entitlement that oozes from the Convoy protesters. I shouldn't be inconvenienced, I shouldn't have to compromise to help others. I should get to live, screw everyone else.
I have a friend who got a lung transplant around 10 years ago. It's a little unnerving how bloodthirsty I got whenever I saw an aggressive motorcycle driver. "I hope they are an organ donor" became my new curse. I wasn't exactly wishing death upon people, but it was sobering to feel how mixed my feelings became knowing a friend was waiting for an organ donation.
The inverse of this story of this woman dying is the story of everyone who skipped past her in line. One of those organs could have been hers. I'd like to hear stories about people whose lives were saved.
They don't give organs to alcoholics who don't stop drinking either.
Good luck getting a heart of you refuse to quit eating a hamburger an hour.
Look, you have to pass a baseline level of taking care of yourself to qualify for an organ, and vaccinations are the bottom, base level first line of defense.
What a dumnass. In her Pyrrhic victory not to be made into a 5g zombie (or whatever nonsense she might have believed) she stood her ground and died like an idiot. She gets no tears from me.
This is such a paradoxical statement, because if she did get the vaccine willingly, then no one would consider her to be an idiot and thus see no issue with her getting the transplant.
Transplants are incredibly strict about you not just wanting to live, but doing everything you can in order to live. It is good that the transplant went to someone with a sense of self-preservation. Utter waste on the likes of her.
"Taking this vaccine offends my conscience. I ought to have the choice about what goes into my body, and a lifesaving treatment cannot be denied to me because I chose not to take an experimental treatment for a condition"
Hun, you're not the only person who is looking for a transplant. If you're not going to protect yourself from COVID-19, you don't get the organ. Plain and simple.
Yup. The courts have long held that being vaccinated can be a requirement of getting an organ transplant. Organs are hard to come by and they should go to the people who are going to listen to their doctor and do what needs to be done to keep that organ alive for a long time. If not, it should go to someone who will.
I'm not sure whether I take more offense to people still calling the vaccine experimental or thinking it's a treatment. Being so desperately against something without bothering to even pretend to understand what it is or why irks the shit out of me. Good riddance.
For an "experimental vaccine" it's had a pretty amazing job at limiting the severity of covid and reducing deaths. If only all experiments were that successful
Transplant candidates must also receive the seasonal influenza and hepatitis B vaccines, follow other healthy behaviors, and demonstrate they can commit to taking the required medications following transplant.
Nevermind you trying to misrepresent the subject by saying it's a flu vaccine.
Since getting the flu will probably kill you with all the immunosuppressants you have to take for life in order to not reject the transplant. They didn't want to waste the organ on an idiot who can't follow simple rules when someone who wants to live could use it
Why sentence somebody that wants to live to die ( by denying them a transplant ) so that the organ can be wasted on somebody making choices inconsistent with survival.
All transplants have waiting lists. Getting an organ probably means denying one to somebody else.
The headline should be “Idiot sacrifices their life opening a spot for somebody smarter to live”.
Organ transplant recipients have a weakened immune system for months to years afterwards, in large part due to immune suppressants taken to prevent organ rejection.
That does not go well with being unvaccinated in a pandemic. The vaccination gives you a fighting chance even with weakened immune system, but without you're screwed.
Even if it’s not fake… this is kinda how it is. You’re required to jump through so many hoops to get a transplant. One of the steps is to suppress your immune system, and not taking one of the required vaccines increases the chances of not only your death, but the waste of the organ.
Are you kidding? Should we not give narcan to OD'd drug addicts? Should we keep people from dying from lung cancer because they smoked? Should we not try to help people dying from liver disease because they're alcoholics? They chose those situations, right?
Actually smokers who haven’t quit don’t get lung transplants either. Same with alcoholics who keep drinking, they are not put on the waiting list for liver transplants. There is a whole list of requirements you need to follow before you are even considered for a transplant. One of them is being fully vaccinated.
Should we keep people from dying from lung cancer because they smoked? Should we not try to help people dying from liver disease because they're alcoholics?
When the smoker/drinker fully admits they have zero intention of quitting, I would much rather give my lung/liver to someone who isn't going to get a full, healthy life out of it, rather than someone who clearly would rather continue abusing it and burn through it in a couple years.
Organs are a limited resource, that's why there is a list - and we should absolutely dedicate limited resources to doing as much good as possible
We respect those who have given life as their final act by making sure their organs aren't wasted.
Those going through organ transplants are immunocompromised and it is especially important that they be vaccinated. Giving someone who is rejecting medical advice related directly to the transplant and it's aftermath isn't something we can do while there's an organ shortage.
You have to remember that anyone that receives an organ is another that don't. doctors are very strict to not give organs to ppl that can suddenly stop taking meds to keep a thing so important working, receiving an organ is not a right, is a gift from someone that died to keep another alive.
If you were in the wilderness with only 1 dose of Narcan and you had to choose between administering it to a drug addict dying from a bender, or their 8 year old that accidentally got into what was causing their parent to OD who would you give the single dose to? That is the kind of decision being made here.
Your example of narcan doesn't even make sense - no one has to die for there to be more narcan. They just make more. So yeah, obviously we should give people narcan even if they're making bad choices. People dying of lung cancer or liver disease require someone to die (or at least permanently give up part of an essential organ, in the case of livers), and we can't just go to the pharmacy and pick up some spare organs just in case. It's part of the deal that you don't get an organ if you don't meet a whole bunch of criteria, like being sober, getting vaccines, generally doing as much as possible to ensure the success of the transplant, because there's someone else who will. Maybe they can't change the past behavior that got them in the situation, but choosing not to change current/future behavior is absolutely grounds for denial.
If they plan to continue smoking or heavily drinking, then yes we should skip over to the next person on the list.
If they refuse to take up the lifestyle changes or follow medical advice, the organ should be used for the next person on the list.
People who've got transplants need to take immunosuppressants to reduce risk of rejection. Making them much more vulnerable to COVID. If the person is adamantly refusing the vaccine for bogus conspiracy theory reasons - it doesn't give me much confidence that they would even follow through on other medical advice to prevent rejection.
That comparison makes no sense lol. You can get a vaccine for zero downsides at any point in time with next to no inconvenience. And you compare that to someone dying of lung cancer?? Especially when lungs are extremely limited and they are clearly showing they don't care. You can't say the same about the other comparisons you've made and that's why it makes no sense.
A lot of people would say no to this. From a personal perspective I'd say "depends on the circumstance but not repeatedly of signify continues to use".
As for smoking/alcohol and transplants... yes they did and those are already exclusionary factors.
Good. These people paid their nickel and took their chances. It's not anyone else's fault that they made a stupid bet. It's no different than those whiners suing over their stupid NFTs being bad investments.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Imagine being the donor and your organ goes to someone like that. It's like someone pissing on your grave (assuming the donor is dead or will die, article doesn't mention the organ).
Also the comment section from that article, holy shit what a dumpster fire.
I swear that stubbornness kills more old people than anything else. Won't go see the doctor, won't listen to the doctor, won't take their medicine, won't do exercise, won't change diet, won't quit smoking, etc. They should list "stubbornness" as the cause of death.
It will be "See! This vaccine killed this woman!" They will just leave out that she refused and didn't actually take the vaccine. I remember seeing a few people claim that some of their friends took the vaccine and they died, even though they never did and was very anti-vaxx.
I can respect her. She was stupid, but hey, at least she was not a hypocrite. If there were more stupid people who weren't hypocrites at the same time, life would be a little bit easier.
It will be a fetid shithole of nonsense spewed by a number of people who speak with great authority about things they know nothing about and rights that they don't have or don't understand.
Willing to be cut open, have an organ removed, and replaced with an organ from a dead person but not willing to have a safe and effective vaccine because it became part of her political identity. I suspect that it was ego that prevented her from accepting the vaccine once she had made up her mind.
I don't see it that way. She was fed a diet of fear and hate and made an extremely bad choice. Her family is grieving because she made this ridiculous choice.
If she gave 2 fucks bout her family and how they would feel, she would have got the vaccine and then transplant. She rather chose to be a brainless foot soldier for the people who duped her
@MapleEngineer Interesting that there is a Wikipedia article on it. I have a close relative who was an ER nurse in a deep red state when the pandemic hit. Lots of deniers, refused to mask up, infected all of the caregivers who were overwhelmed with the sick and the dead. They didn’t have enough beds or morgue space. So I have zero sympathy for people who put others at risk. There are a million dead, ironically many of them Trump voters. I give zero fucks for the antivaxers.
The article says she has grandchildren, so her genes are still very much out there. Natural selection only works if it can get to you before you reproduce.
I mean...the reality is that 100% of people who get the covid vaccine are going to die after getting the vaccine. Some of them it will be almost 100 years after getting it but they're all going to die.
[Lawyers for AHS] cited a national consensus statement — developed in November 2021 and subsequently accepted by all Canadian transplant programs — which found a 25-30 per cent mortality rate in patients infected with COVID post-organ transplant.
July 2022 - Court of King’s Bench, Justice Paul Belzil - "...subjecting clinical decisions to charter scrutiny would create “medical chaos,” with patients seeking “endless judicial review of clinical treatment decisions.”"
November 2022 - Alberta Court of Appeals, Justices Frederica Schutz, Michelle Crighton and Dawn Pentelechuk - “Ms. Lewis’ COVID-19 vaccination status is not who she is,” the court wrote. “It is not an immutable personal characteristic … her choice not to get vaccinated against COVID-19 is just that — a choice.”
June 2023 - Supreme Court of Canada - refused to hear appeal.
Colonel Nicholson: Yes, Clipton. I understand, truly. But don't you see it's a matter of principle? If we give in now, there will be no end to it. No!
Major Clipton: Sir, we're lost in the jungle, a thousand miles from anywhere. We're under the heel of a man who will stop at nothing to get his way. Principle? No one will know or care what happens to us! Give in, sir! Please!
I'm not celebrating. I think it is an incredible fucking shame that a bunch of crushingly ignorant people were mislead by a very small group of people with a highly destructive agenda. She died because she believed lies, made it her entire identity, and couldn't figure out how to change her position. She eat made to feel like a hero for standing up to "the man" and died a miserable, unnecessary death.
You've made some fairly empathetic comments in the thread, so don't take it directly at you. I'm immunocompromised so I understand the risks. I still have space for compassion. This is a sad loss in convincing these people and we should be sorting out how to do better.
I will always refuse to dance on graves, and you should too.
No, it's not. Organs are hard to come by and the courts have long held that organ donation networks can choose recipients based on the highest likelihood of success including vaccination status. She chose to die rather than getting a safe, effective vaccine. It was her right to make that choice but, like every choice we make, that choice had consequences.
It's definitely sad, but not discriminatory. Organ transplant recipients generally need to take a lot of immunosuppressive medications. Getting fully vaccinated is a bare minimum for improving the likelihood of a successful transplant.
It was discriminatory, just not bigoted. Medical professionals have to be discriminating in who gets organs, because there aren't enough for everyone. They rightfully, necessarily discriminate against people who will not significantly benefit from the organs they have, including against antivaxx morons.
If you can't even be bothered to get vaccinated, you can't be trusted to keep up with your treatments and meds required for an organ transplant. If she's not gonna trust science and doctors, why should they waste their time and a good donor organ on her?
There's a very high likelihood she would have died if their gave her the transplant without her being vaccinated. A transplant is already a huge stress on a body and if you're not vaccinated, you have a high chance to die from something as simple as the flu or a staph infection, due to all the immunosuppressant meds required.