CEO of Song-Generating AI App Says People "Don't Enjoy" Making Music With Instruments
CEO of Song-Generating AI App Says People "Don't Enjoy" Making Music With Instruments
Mikey Shulman, the CEO of AI music generator company Suno AI, argued that most people don't enjoy the "majority of time" making music.
Tech bros' lack of empathy means he literally can't imagine anyone liking something he doesn't.
Finally the actual reason he said this.
more like it's one of the few things people still can enjoy.
For now...
Gross
Music, even the boring practice, is one of the few remaining joys in my life
These type of stupid statements are meant to rile up people and generate free publicity. Don't feed the trolls.
Suno was what radicalized my stance on AI, and I refuse to use any of it.
As a solo hobbyist game dev who struggles with art, I had a pretty reserved approach for AI for stuff like art, animation or most notably voice acting, which makes the game a lot better but is really hard to do if you're not a native speaker or don't have a budget. My plan was to start with AI filling in places I couldn't do, but then pledge that 100% of the first sales will go towards paying an actual artist/VA and replace the assets as soon as possible. That felt like a fair compromise.
And then I tried Suno. You see, as a programmer, my line of work isn't really threatened by AI. Quite the contrary - it hinders the learning process of so many new programmer who will end up missing core skills, that it kind of increases my job security.
And since stuff like VA is something I don't really understand, I mostly considered it as an asset that AI can temporally provide.
After trying Suno, which makes something I am passionate about - I've tried and failed for the past few years to learn instruments, and starting a band and making music is one of my so far unattainable dreams, it was so, so devastating. To see something you've actively struggled with, dreamed about, and made an effort for to overcome the challenges, unsuccessfuly so far, be overtaken by a literal three word prompt, making a better song I probably ever will - it's so heartbreaking, demoralizing and awful. Which is something I haven't realized when thinking about art I was not invested into, but now, thanks to Sunk, I see how it must feel for every artist, and I refuse to support any of it. It gave me determination and motivation to make the effort towards meeting people who do VA or assets I need, and collaborating, even if it postpones everything by a long time.
Fuck AI, and fuck this guy. The product may be useful and is pretty mindblowing, but it comes at a cost of making a lot of artists demotivated and miserable. Also, saying that "music is hard, people don't want to" just adds salt to the wound, insult to the injury, and is really fucked up thing to say, after the product you've made affected and demoralized artists at large so much. Seriously, fuck that guy.
AI is also not very good at replacing artist or anyone if your standards aren't in the Mariana trench. Best use of it is somewhat realistic clip art generation, otherwise it only generates a shitton of soulless stuff.
A version of generative AI with more human involvement would be closer to what I call "art", but that is not what makes investors soyface over the tech, whose idea of art is "coming up with an idea".
Its also terrible for originality. Itcan create a basic template, but that is all it will be. If you want to make music for your game, and you have a specific kind of theme and instrument in mind, you'd be hard-pressed getting that right with generative AI.
That’s disingenuous and fucking dumb.
Granted, I personally no longer enjoy playing music, but I did it for about 22 years. It got old for me because I realized it was a hobby that was costing me money, and health.
I no longer desire to spend Friday and Saturday nights at bars, lugging gear around in order to play songs for a few drunk people. Like… when you break it down, it’s incredibly depressing.
Glad you filled in what the health risk was on the second paragraph because I immediately thought “What risk could you have playing music? Are you drumming with your head?”
Nothing kills the joy of a hobby faster than trying to make a living out of it.
It's one of the symptoms of the SYSTEM when a kid shows talent and/or strong interest in a thing, it could be most anything, the adults that this child looks to for guidance push them to make this interest and/or talent into a career. And as soon as that suggestion takes root in that child's head then it just time before the hobby/talent is abandoned with regret and sadness.
This may not be universal but it's not rare either - as you know first hand.
Hope one day you can, if you want, get back to what drew you towards playing music in the first place and I hope you find joy in it for nothing more than that.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense and seems to add up.
Also, thank you for the kind words.
Why stop playing music tho? Surely there is more to the world of music than just playing other people’s music in a dive bar?
Expand your horizon.
I've gotten everything I wanted out of it, and I no longer feel any emotional or psychological reward from playing music. I was originally not talking about playing other people's music though. I wrote my own, toured in a band playing our music, and sold my music in other countries. It was all relatively small scale though; not enough to supplement a normal job or anything like that.
Know that us drunk people love you and people like you for it. Can imagine it gets old for a lot of folks though.
I used to keep a piano keyboard next to my computer for loading downtime, and it was the least depressed days of my life.
Why not do it again then? Even a small keyboard might do.
A Yamaha Reface is a lovely thing for just that.
Tell that to the $1700 guitar I just bought
Or the $600 guitar, $600 baritone guitar and $600 fretless bass I just bought. 🥴
What kind of baritone for that price? The Danelectro one? Hagstrom?
I picked up a real nice baritone (a little pricier) a few years back and it's pretty fun to fuck around on... Make sure to put heavier gauge strings on it if you can. I've also found that it sounds better coming from a bass amp than my tiny Vox.
Or the $200 guitar I've spent a small fortune to upgrade. Or the MIDI controller I've fixed and planning on turning it into a Jankó-style keyboard. Or the few software synths I've made for my game engine.
Stop listening to CEOs. They are fucking morons. And in this case I would argue his sentiment is corrupt and bias. He just wants to push his shitty product by down playing instrumentalists.
No AI will ever replace an artist like Prince. I’ll wipe my ass with any of this AI garbage.
I think people need to stop using the term 'AI' for everything a computer does to simulate thought or creativity. AI algorithms are basically large scale piracy machines capable of scanning the entirety of human art so that it can create a reasonable imitation based off the source material its consumed. Its strength is in its ability to internally pursue, and fail, billions of potential outcomes and come to one that meets the criteria its been givien within seconds or minutes. Instead of a million monkeys at a million typewriters, its like a quadrillion monkeys, and they're all on adderall.
The truth is that it never understood the source material. It doesn't feel anything from it, it doesn't comprehend it. Everything that it does is derived from the material used for training and the instructions its received. If thats the case then we're talking about Virtual Intelligence, not true AI or AGI, and I think thats an important distinction. I'm also surprised that more lawyers and copyright holders don't feel that way.
machines capable of scanning the entirety of human art so that it can create a reasonable imitation based off the source material its consumed
I am counting the days until we see a tech giant’s legal team argue that this is how human artists work, and that the AIs must therefore be people with rights just like their corporate parents.
I would say I hate putting this idea out into the universe, but you know plenty of those ghouls are way ahead of me.
It's called projection..
Oh yeah, nobody spends years and decades mastering a skill set unless they hate it. Authors? They fucking hate books. Actors? They actually all want to work in finance. Teachers? You'd better believe there's nothing they hate more than explaining shit to children. And there's not an artist alive that wouldn't give up their art in a heartbeat if it meant they could live their dreams of working in customer service.
JFC some people will say anything to justify being a jackass.
every time these lizards say shit like this I get more vindicated in saying people who believe "ai" "art" is legitimately art are not human.
"making moosic with eenstrooments is such a terrible experience am I right fellow hoomans?"
no you fucking bot. people who do it are delighted by it and most of those who don't do it wish they could.
and most of those who don’t do it wish they could.
ok, out of the people who , let's say, own an instrument, how many do you think fall into this category?
All this generative AI for "creative works" basically makes it so that if you lack the skill to do something, you can feed it something among the lines of what you want, and it will do the hard work that takes years of effort to achieve for you.
In the right contexts, it allows for personal curation of art the user can imagine but lacks the technical ability to create.
Of course, corps and assholes looking to make a quick buck are also abusing this to make money at the expense of genuine people who are expressing something and have honed a craft. Guess what, that shit's happening anyway, Taylor Swift is charging 5k for tickets to watch her lip sync to music she didn't write and isn't singing at the concert. It's already fucking over, and has been for ages. It's even worse, there are bands out there that have bothered to hone their craft and are out there touring their asses off, but because they "found their niche" are basically phoning it in and making the same fucking album every two to five years. Great work. Think about the last few meshuggah or mastodon albums. Violent sleep of reason, koloss and immutable are variations on the same fucking ideas. at least the band grew and tried to find themselves, and perfected themselves in the era between nothing and obzen. Mastodon stopped giving a shit since Crack the Skye.
EDIT : If I want to hear hardcore mixed with lounge , and I don't want to learn to scream, play the sax , drums, guitar, bass etc, and I have a machine that can interpret that for me, why shouldn't it enrich my day? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ-K647LViU
EDIT2 : You wanna tell me that there's more value than the latest Boardroom generated pop album with no AI compared to Pho Que which was made by someone who understands what goes on under the hood with the way the AI would generate the music to fulfil their personal tastes in music and curiosity?
EDIT3 : You know what, I'll even multiple down. I spent the morning checking out bands from a gig poster in town, unheard regional bands, and you know what, they were all generic and mid. 6/10. I was hoping to go to the gig, have a good time, discover great local talent, but I don't want to, since it's not worth it to bother going out to do that while I have other responsibilities or ways of having fun.
I'm still listening to Pho Que (ai generated by the guys at dadabots, through suno, the company in the OP) and I'm enjoying myself more than when I was listening to their generic efforts at black metal. There's more dynamics, more surprises and it's better overall.
Why do I keep buying synths then?
Maybe if he could make it subscription-based and monetize peoples' creativity...
I totally suck at the piano/keyboard but I still enjoy it so much
Suno... the app I use to send shitty personalized birthday songs...
or to play tacky bard songs for my DnD character, which is the perfect use case IMHO!
This is the kind of thing you say when you never learned how to play Blitzkreig Bop.
That's why it's the first song they throw at you in RockSmith.
This man needs to be sentenced to 10 years solitary confinement in a room with 100 electronically controlled vuvuzelas serenading him at all hours of the day and night.
I think one week of that will render you insane
My coworker is using one of these sites and is uploading to YouTube. He says there's a lot of curating he's doing and listens to 14 hours of AI music a day to find the actual usable songs.
The songs he's shared are okay, I wouldn't have gathered they're AI besides that they're generic.
The thing I wonder is if people would accept this music knowing that it was generated.
I would not.
An old friend of mine was doing the same thing with Suno. He gave up after a while because he lost interest, because there's not really anything to enjoy in the process.
Literally building an instrument so I can have fun playing it... and making it has been pretty fun too.
The only use I have found for AI music generation software is for the app to make me a loop in the correct key and tempo so I can practice guitar against it. Even then I still prefer a ticker most of the time.
CEO should have consulted an AI for backlash on that sentiment.
I enjoy playing instruments more than I do making music
Corporate will suck your soul and drink your blood when you're young. They will take or steal everything they can from you to accumulate money, just to make sure you would not have any other options than work for them until you die or get old and become useless. After that if you're lucky to climb the ladder they will push you off the building for certain death and replace with younger generation. Is that really the future we want ?
Man he really sucks at identifying his market. I would get it if it was targeted at amateurs stitching together video from a birthday party or something and looking for a song to go in the background.
Instead is he trying to sell to the population most able to tell that the output is garbage?
FALSE.
Why not both? We can enjoy starting a song with the help of AI, then add other instruments and effects to it to make it better.
He's right, though.
People don't want to spend all their time practicing instruments to improve their skills. This is already proven by electronic artists using samples and digital instruments instead of learning to play each instrument individually.
That doesn't mean we should use AI generated garbage instead of musicians, however. To me, the electronic producer is still an artist, just a different kind.
Boomer take. I'm a musician of two decades, got my degree in music. Sampling is as much an art and practice as playing a "traditional" instrument—I do both.
Are there lazy samplists? Sure, just as there are lazy guitarists. But watch this and tell me this isn't musicianship. https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=sKMDP-vDsTU
Gen-X with forty years of guitar here. I 100% agree. I recently picked up a NI Maschine and it is like learning to play a new instrument and far more difficult than I ever expected.
Invidious link didn't work... Do you have the youtube link?
Was wondering what you chose as an example.
I was thinking Avalanches. Or maybe Madlib. Or J Dilla.
Or maybe just RZA. Or DJ Shadow...
Man, I wish I could do the shit those people do. I know how it works in practice, but I just don't have the brain to do it. And yeah, anyone who denigrates it as an art form is clueless.
No, he is wrong.
People of every age learn how to play music everyday.
Practicing is absolutely enjoyable.
Using samples and electronic instruments only prove that people who love making music will find creative ways to do it.
Just because you don't like a certain type of music (there are hundreds if not thousands of different types of music) it doesn't mean people making that music are lazy.
Having the money and space for each instrument is a task itself.
Also for most instruments, the ability to practice without bothering others.
Though honestly never having the option to even try many instruments is probably why many people don't play an instrument. Digital is completely open, though I'd also say composing music is different than performing it.
Add restrictions to time/energy/mood, learning resources being paywalled, music theory being daunting, personal difficulties with certain instruments etc.
If you don't have much space (and/or money) i would recommend getting an inexpensive midi keyboard. They're extremely versatile.
I think that a more accurate statement is that some people don't enjoy using instruments. I mean, I don't, but I'm sure that there are people who do.
Obviously. Kinda crazy you thought my comment was about 100% of people.
It’s a blanket generalization; those are almost always wrong.
Sure, there are SOME people that don’t want to learn how to play an instrument; just as there are some people who vehemently oppose the usage of any AI. I guess because there’s SOME people that vehemently oppose AI, everyone should learn how to play an instrument (see how blanket generalizations don’t work).
People who use instruments or computers to make music get full control, which is good and bad. You get to do exactly what you want, but your skills and creativity put a limit to what that might be. Also, doing that takes time.
Using AI to generate images and music puts you into the shoes of a producer. Now, you’re trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, but you don’t really have very much control over what the AI generates. It can be really frustrating, since you may have a vision, but the AI just doesn’t follow orders very well.
You should go to a drum corps rehearsal or elite piano/violin recital. Shit or even an arcade hosting a bemani tournament. Like not one of the places where their parents are forcing them but somewhere where people are just doing it because they want to, even if it sucks sometimes to play for hours and hours and hours
I used to teach lessons and you do have a point, a lot of people want to be good without doing any work. That’s true of any endeavor that requires effort. A lot of people covet the reward without paying enough mind to the serious amount of effort that one undertakes to get to that point
But some people actually do want to achieve greatness, some people want a sense of accomplishment, some people want a deeper understanding of their instrument, etc
Even if you’re an electronic producer that only ever uses the piano roll you would still benefit from a better understanding of theory and improvisation. This doesn’t come from nothing; it comes from grinding. You don’t necessarily need to read theory books and practice piano of course, you will gain a sense of these from writing songs and getting feedback, but you still need to write and/or play a lot
The rise in electronic artists is arguably more to do with accessibility. literally everyone has a computing device and free music making software is relatively abundant, instruments are expensive and loud, practice space is hard to come by especially in urban environments. Additionally electronic music has a huge factor of cultural relevance in terms of trends from production styles being popular across genres.
AI music is a tool and it’s impressive but the results are mostly derivative, which makes sense given how it works. it would be really cool to see more resources invested into spaces for people who actually wanted to pursue the arts to be able to do so as this is likely the way music (and other art) truly moves forward and actually innovates instead of just hashing out the same tired shit
I think you meant people flipping purchased loop packs, and even then I disagree.
J Dilla made his music with samples. His rhythms are so complex that there are literal PH.Ds writing books about them.
Aphex Twin and Burial are another two artists that prove that it takes incredible skill and talent to cook samples and transform them into something new.
Also, if anyone is looking for more suggestions of amazing sample-based artists: Madlib, Avalanches, DJ Shadow...
It's an entirely different genre than what most people think of when they hear "electronic music."
Honestly I kind of get his point.
I fooled around with some basic beat making software back in the day and was having a lot of fun, so I stepped up to entry level producing software and HOLY SHIT there was a learning cliff I had to climb. It sucked all the fun out of it and I got bored really fast.
People do still want to create and make music not learn how to use a piece of software.
I think people enjoy musical instruments. Digital music really hasn't caught on much. There are and always will be plenty of musicians playing traditional instruments of all kinds.
Digital music really hasn’t caught on much.
I just found out that modular synths are a thing and it looks pretty fun to me! It's like half music and half electrical engineering, LOL.
(Don't get me wrong, I knew about keyboard synthesizers and whatnot, but the concept of making music with a bunch of oscillators and random voltage generators patched together is 🤯.)
(Also, shout out to [email protected] for putting me on the Youtube random walk that lead to that video.)
Digital music hasn't caught on? Since when?
Electronic music is a different artform, but it's still fun and satisfying for the people who make it. Plus, I'd argue that most people who make electronic music do it because they like that type of music, not because they don't want to learn the violin or whatever.
