Always liked this one:
But this one is good too...
Not complaining or calling it out but I’ve seen the words in the 2nd applied to sooo many different comics. I think that’s actually kind of great that it’s so flexible 😆
I think it's originally from Red vs Blue
In "who left their bag here"'s case, the gender of the person is not known because their identity isn't known, so it doesn't feel strange to use (for us old farts). It can take some effort to retrain your brain to use "they" when it's a single person whose identity is known (speaking from experience as a Gen Xer).
Or the person might just be a transphobic asshole. But I like to think that most just need to educate themselves on using pronouns correctly.
One thing that might help it feel less strange is realising that you already use a grammatically plural pronoun to refer to individuals all the time: the word "you". It's always "you are tall", not "you is tall", same as "we" or "they" instead of "he" or "she". This is because it was historically plural, and "thou" was the singular. Over time we started using the plural to be more polite, and then eventually always using it.
It only feels strange because of how it's been used previously in my lifetime, not from historical usage. But as you've shown, language changes over time, and not having a singular neutral pronoun has proven to be a big omission in English (since "they" has only traditionally been used that way in certain limited cases). If it was good enough for "you," it's good enough for "they!"
Yeah it can take a while to get used to, especially if you knew the person before they changed their pronouns. But the point is it isnt incompatible with our language at all. I think the last panel would be better if it showed the (transphobic) guy and another person and he says "this activist said the craziest thing to me today" and then the second person says "oh yeah, what'd THEY say" because then the 'they' pronoun would be directly referring to the person who wanted to be called 'they' in the first place.
I mean, I'm mid 30s, and it took me a long time to internalize "he, she, they" rather than "he, she, it". It's just how they were used when I was growing up. Fortunately, I've had the opportunity to learn and grow. At the end of the day, just speak with respect and make sure you listen as much as, or more than, speak.
I agree. It's hard to put myself back in the old mindset (and I was definitely not supportive of this type of thing back in pre-2014) but I really do think I used to use "his or her" more often than "their", or at least in more formal settings.
I remember on Mark Rosewater's Tumblr blog he ran a Q&A (he is the lead designer of Magic: The Gathering). Someone was asking about cards using "his or her" instead of "their" because not everyone uses he/she pronouns. His response was basically that the reason they did that was because they used the Chicago style guide and it said to use "his or her" when referring to a single person of unknown gender. Basically he said that he understood players have different genders, but it was just a style thing, and that the rules even said something about "his or her" referring to the player (regardless of gender). Since then, I believe Magic cards now use "their", so it's possible Chicago's style guide changed (or at least Wizards' policy did).
I'm 47 and it just came naturally to me. 🤷
"They" made more sense to me than "it" in the first place.
Come to think of it, I still call babies "it" when I don't know the gender all the time though.
Oh yeah it took me a while to default to 'they' instead of 'he/she' lol
Sometimes I still mess up and assume, and sometimes I say 'they' when I don't mean to also. Brains are weird.
I remember as a kid the teachers were desperately trying to make “he or she” a thing and told us the singular “they” would never be acceptable.
I’m personally glad that movement failed.
looking back, some of my educators were monumentally stupid
OVERSHARING TIME
My body doesn't burp; when I drink something carbonated I have to physically gag myself with something to get the air out. When I was a kid I didn't know this and would get pain in my stomach and didn't understand why.
Coke with my lunch two days in a row resulted in trips to my home room teacher to ask to see the nurse, or go home. My home room teacher crossed her arms and said, "this is the second day in a row you've done this to us," and lectured me about trying to get out of class. I had no way of proving that I was actually in pain. I was angry and scared and couldn't do anything about it. Do not give me the keys to the time machine or there will be violence.
I had a math teacher that was there to coach football… instead of the normal method for balancing equations and such he’d insist you use his wonky play call diagrams.
Which made all the other algebra and trig teachers have re-teach kids coming out of his last class.
Dude was a stereotypical jock that was going to give one of his athletes a free pass for stuffing a friend of mine into a locker. At least until i stuffed the tight end in his locker, instead.
So. How about this. We swap the keys and go all strangers on a train?
I had this exact same problem growing up. When I started drinking excessive amounts of beer the pressure became enough to break through, and I finally started burping. That somehow fixed my body completely, and I've been able to burp normally ever since, but my God I'll never forget the pain of being unable to burp. Literally the worst pain of my life
While we're oversharing, I had a similar issue:
I had bad asthma as a kid and stress would bring on an asthma attack. An inhaler wasn't enough, I had to go to the nurse and use this loud, ugly machine called a nebulizer. Obviously, one of the most stressful times in school is during a test, so taking a test could easily trigger an attack. Teachers always begrudgingly wrote me a pass to the nurse and made it clear to me that they "knew" I was faking to get out of the test.
Not one of them got the idea into their heads to just make me take the test with me. I would have been able to take it just fine while breathing through the stupid nebulizer. It's not like I enjoyed being hooked up to the damn thing or enjoyed not being able to breathe well.
The good news is I only have to have an inhaler now, which takes care of the asthma when it comes up maybe once or twice a year. And that's only if I have a cold. I hear others are not so lucky.
I learned English at school and the first time I encountered singular they was when my teacher explained it to us. Sometimes non native speakers are less prescriptive than native speakers
No, it's just been a thing forever, and will always be thing. Those teachers, if they ever existed, which I doubt, were just dumb fucks from Dumbfuckistan.
Teachers didn't know vapid influencers would exist.
Someone correct me, but "you" was originally plural. The correct way to address a singular person is "thou".
Also singular they is older than singular you. So any idiots who complain that "they" should only be plural should only be using thou/thee for second person singular.
We use ты for second person singular.
Yeah. And
Y'allalso used to be plural. Now it can be singular and we useAll Y'allto clarify when we need people to know we mean plural. Language is bonkers.I have never heard y'all used singular, growing up in the American South. Instead, as I understand it:
-
Y'all: You all, referring to a group of people (Can potentially be a subset of a larger group, e.g. talking to one couple at the table among a group of friends). "When are y'all having the wedding again?"
-
All y'all: shorthand for "all of y'all" Explicitly referring to "all of the members of the group in question", requiring that at least one member of said group is being addressed by the speaker. The difference is there are no exceptions (apart from exaggeration) "Ain't a single one of you innocent, all y'all had a hand in this" or "All y'all need to put on your seatbelts, I ain't going to jail for any of y'all's comfort".
-
Roses are red Violets are blue The singular "they" Pre-dates singular "you"
Thou shalt use proper pronouns and not be lazy recycling plural pronouns in the singular. What next, are thou planing to use a singular "we" like inbred royalty?
The singular "they" Pre-dates singular "you"
The same way rights were ore-dated by no rights?
'older' is not always 'better'. Make your point, but don't hinge it on a false comparison.
The point isn't to say that the singular they is somehow better than the singular you, it's to point out that it is not a modern invention. People that dislike usage of the singular they often argue that it is an unnatural change being forced upon the language, when in fact it has been in use for so long that it was used by Shakespeare
When I started interacting with a non-binary person more often, the only reflexive pronoun that came to mind was ‘themselves.’ As in, “They bought themselves a pair of socks for their birthday.” It felt a bit awkward since I couldn’t shake the plural association in my head, but I still used it to be respectful.
Then I remembered that the word ‘themself’ exists and I felt stupid.
That's something I wonder about as a non native speaker: it's singular they but verbs are still plural (they are, not *they is, they come
s). Maybe this will change some day, maybe not. Singular s might die out anyway or maybe because of singular they.
If you're introducing yourself to me, I only need your name.
So you're going to refer to John by John's name exclusively? Sounds a bit awkward, but okay.
Calling people what they ask to be called just doesn't have to be this difficult.
And yes, his royal lordship Starn, the majestic, that goes for you, too. It's fine. We're cool with your chosen name. And I admit, the opera cape absolutely works for you.
And I don't need to know what genitalia most other people are rocking. That's none of my business, unless we're really into each-other, in a very intimate way.
It takes all my willpower not to be get pretty inappropriate every time a government form asks my birth sex:
"Oh! We just met at this office of motor vehicles...I didn't know you felt that way about me! This is so much to process. I admit there's a mutual attraction. Of course I feel it too. I'm delighted that you had a special form made up to ask! I'm flattered! Want to grab dinner, and see where this goes?"
Calling people what they ask to be called just doesn't have to be this difficult.
We in fact do it all the time. It's just people have gotten used to using names. But it's not like you were born with a Dave chromosome. Your parents decided to call you Dave, so in the end it's also just a made up name/sound.
Calling people what they ask to be called just doesn't have to be this difficult.
Yeah, I don't really understand why people get so upset about Drag specifically, like it's not that hard once you figure it out.
I, too, thought about Drag several times while reading the thread
I get irked when someone says “he or she,” especially repeatedly, because the singular “they” is so much easier to hear and read.
me copy pasting a line of code in 20 different places just to go back and make a function for it
The singular "they/them/their" has always been an indeterminate pronoun. It's basically a placeholder for a list of people that could be one. Using it to refer to a person you know feels a bit like an insult for some older people.
A bit softer than using "it", but still really impersonal.
In Finnish language there are no gender specific pronouns only gender neutral one hän/hänen.
They/them still sounds weird to use even if I know it can be used to refer single person. When talking or writing fast I'll still often accidentally default to using he/him even for females which I then have to correct.
In my language everything little word is gendered so everything you talk about is bound by it. It's extremely confusing thinking or understanding how to describe something in terms "non-gendered".
I really am supportive of all the changes needed in the world, but the use of "they" is very confusing in a singular form for people who don't have it as first language and concepts and everything was learned by mapping stuff to other language, so please invent some word for it and go with it. It's already strange and always difficult understanding the usage of "you" in singular vs plural and formal or not speech.
I really wish my language also had gender neutral pronouns, it just sound so much simpler and better.
please invent some word for it and go with it
There
isare more than one word. It's going to take quite some time until agreement on the use will distill and become accepted, though.
Dear native English speakers, would you mind inventing a new word either for gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun, or one for what "they" mean to foreign English speakers since you are so insisted in differing its meaning from the text books you shipped us decades ago?
English is so inconsistent at this point. Only the third-person pronouns have gender in singular form, the plural form has no gender and now you are telling us the gender-less form can be singular now? How confusing!
English is widespread partly because it has simple alphabet and relatively easy grammar. I don't mind someone being in LGBT+ group at all, but could you please don't mess with the language?
English is so inconsistent at this point.
At this point? At this very point, specifically due to the historically valid usage of one gender neutral pronoun? Now is the time that it's finally become an inconsistent language? Singular "they" is the thing that has pushed English over the edge from logical and sensical to arbitrary and confusing? Of all the foibles and quirks, this is the one that is simply unforgivable and must be changed?
As the comic shows, "they" ("their," in this case) was already used as a singular when the gender was unknown. The only change is it's now also used if the person's gender is known and isn't "he" or "she."
Don't blame native speakers that your textbook is outdated
Naw.
Others have addressed some of your other points, but
would you mind inventing a new word either for gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun, or one for what "they" mean to foreign English speakers
We actually have that. Xe / Xem / Xyrs. It isn't very widely used though, and is generally considered a neo pronoun.
Honestly I don't really expect it to get mainstream use anytime soon, in part because people are already accused to the singular They / Them / Theirs (except for when a nonbinary person asks to be refered to as such).
There's more than one option, I for one prefer Elverson which is Ey/Em/Eirs
I call it "Schroedinger's pronoun"
These people don’t care if it’s grammatically correct. They just don’t like trans people.
What is "JK" referencing to?
Rowling
ty
Why would one even use this pronoun is beyond me.
I agree, using 'this' as a pronoun for oneself seems weird, but i don't see any reason why my finding it weird should overrule someone else's decision about how they should be referred to.
So shall I refer you as Zher ?
Ok, hear me out, super supportive, but I had an issue when a friend's husband wanted me to use "their."
What issue? I fail to see how that impacts you negatively in any way.
No no, hear me out.
So you're not, in fact, "super supportive" at all then, are you, and are not, in fact, worth hearing out.. 🙄
That comment did not imply any of this in the least
Well... that is entirely a you problem. You should do a little soul searching to figure out why it is so difficult for you to pay someone dear to someone you call a friend the bare minimum amount of respect.
Would you be upset if your friends constantly misgendered you, then acted like you were the asshole because you took issue with it?
Don't use it then.
The only time you would ever need to use someone's pronouns is when they're not part of the conversation anyway.
I couldn't care less what people refer to me as if I'm not there.
