I work at a pet store. I monitor anyone that looks between 12 and 18 closely. If I don't, without fail they're always the ones swatting at our animals for a laugh. Why, by Neptune's briny piss, would I treat them with the respect that 9/10 times they don't show to anyone else?
Yeah I remember being 15 and I was a little shit. Kids aren't people yet.
I remember my thoughts and feelings at 15, when I had no responsibilities, no understanding of how the world works, no awareness of my own flaws, and yet I knew everything. It was a blissful existence.
I remember being 15 and I had severe tooth pain and my parents refused to take me to a dentist for a year straight because teeagers are just whiny and dramatic. I ended up having four teeth removed. Lol
I'm sad that so many people had such a shit time being 15.
I had a great time being 15. Back then I couldn’t even fathom being twenty, it felt like being old and I was never getting old (or so my 15yo self thought)
"I'm 20 and this is deep".
Become an actual adult and you will realize how ridiculously difficult it is to take some uneducated teenager's radicalism with any grain of seriousness and respect. Even if you try to because you remember what it felt like not to be taken seriously, and you don't want to be that adult..
I'm way over 20 and I wholeheartly disagree with you. It is indeed complicated to educate rebelling teenagers but many adults look down on children, teens and young adults just because of them being younger. That is an acceptable behavior.
Even when struggling to educate someone, it's not ok to treat someone like they are worth nothing. Younger human are human being and deserve to be treated as so."I'm the cool mom ..."
Isn't that completely missing the point of this post? 15-20 is old enough to have some experience, opinions, thoughts, hopes, fears, dreams, etc.
I'm 35, and I'm perfectly able to engage with the thought process behind the opinion, no matter how radical. All they want is to be treated with respect.
Contrast with “real adults” who e.g. continue to trash the planet because they can't even think of slightly decreasing the amount by which they enrich themselves. Those I don't respect. They are the real radicals.
If a 15 year old says “so much good can happen when a few billionaires kick the bucket”, I'm right there with them.
Nah, I was a shitter at 15. I know now that the thoughts and feelings I had held no real water and I was just an idiot. Now, with everything I've learned and experienced, I would absolutely tell my 15 year old self to sit down and stfu.
Hello fellow shithead. I am 37 now, I have two kids, and my biggest worry is identifying the shitty, stupid behaviors I had as a kid, and trying to find them in my own kids, and figuring out what, if anything, I can do to prevent them from making the stupid mistakes I made. They are not even close to 15 at this point, so I've got some years to prepare.
That's not today that I don't at least appreciate, just a little, what the OP is saying. I can't forget that my kids are humans with their own ideas. I don't want to stifle their creativity and their growth. But what they cannot possibly understand, and what I'm continuing to learn to this day, is just how big an impact some small decisions can have.
This kind of thing resonates with me and then I check the comments and it's just people being like "god young people are so STUPID lol" and it hurts a bit!
15 year olds are idiots. But like so are my coworkers. The difference is that 15 year olds have an excuse and might learn from their fuck ups.
Pretty much this. I've always tried to treat kids like dumb lil adults, but with more potential!
Counterpoint: grow up and learn to say no to your 15 year old self. "I'm just a kid and life is a nightmare!" is only a waypoint on the path to maturity, and immaturity is poorly disguised by pleas to "please somebody think of the children!" Children are welcome to have all their own thoughts and feelings, but having thoughts and feelings doesn't entitle or qualify anybody to amplify them into leadership and policy.
If you have to try not to forget that you're probably already a cunt. Having open eyes is enough.
Man... The amount of comments saying that kids are dumb at fifteen and I didn't know what I was doing at fifteen are all falsely equating respect with success and knowledge. Kids literally don't know what their doing because they are figuring it out. They're not dumb, they have a lot to learn. And most want to.
Kids need respect for being who they are. You give most kids real respect and watch them do everything they can to live up to it. They need real connection and mentors. When you give high support then you can set high expectations.
The difference is you knowing that you don't know, and an average teenager feeling like they know it all, while they know about as much as nothing.
You've got it all backwards. Adults are the ones who think they know everything. Don't mistake confidence for arrogance. If you raise a kid right, then they'll confidently do dumb shit, knowing they'll learn from it and you'll keep them safe. That's healthy development. But you look at the adults who never take risks, never consider different ideas, refuse to learn tech or politics because they think they won't get it. That's low self esteem, but it's also a form of arrogance. The arrogant belief that you are already the best you can possibly be. That you have no growing left to do. Even if you think you're the dumbest person alive, thinking you're the smartest version of yourself is arrogance.
It's all the Dunning-Kruger effect. We are cursed to continually fail on the side of you don't know what you don't know.
I had this idea in my teens that we really needed a common sense brigade. Small groups of people jury style that would just go from place to place and say hey that's stupid Don't do that. Because I could see right from wrong I assumed that we just needed a bunch of people that could also see right from wrong to go around and lead the idiots to reasonable decisions. It was very easy for my 15-year-old mine to see black and white everywhere. It's all good versus evil and smart versus stupid.
Many decades later, I know grasp that most of the world's problems are because people tries to fit everything into black and white.
Kids need respect
no, kids need understanding. respect is earned. the difference between the two is trust.
Bet, I think that's a really good point and a crucial reminder for some people.
I am gonna need 15 year olds to be 33% less annoying, though, in return. I mean, I was incredibly annoying at 15 and I get it's hard not to be but goddamn meet me part way here
I used to work with a lot of teens at their first job, and I found that I got along with them really well when I'd tell them that the biggest difference between them and me was simply that I'd been on this rock a few years longer than they have. If you're 20 and they're 15, then you've experienced 33% more shit than they have.
I told them that I wasn't gonna tell them what to do with their lives, but I'd offer my own experiences to help them make more informed choices. It's like with little kids: you can tell them not to do something dangerous, but if you explain why they shouldn't do it, you'll get better results. At least with the 15+ crowd, you usually don't have to worry about them sticking forks into the electrical sockets or something.
I don't think I started sticking metal into electrical outlets until I was 14 or 15..
Bzzzzzaaaap
Way more than that. Imagine a 5-year-old who has what, a couple of years worth of memories? So by that token, a 7-year-old is twice the age of a 5-year-old, and a 9-year-old is triple, despite not even having hit double the chronological age yet.
And there's all sorts of disconnects beyond that: a 17-year-old driving cars for at least a year while a 14-year-old has never done so (depending on factors I suppose), and a 20-year-old with multiple years of college or trade school or work under their belt, vs. a 17-year-old who tends to have little to none yet at that point.
And how much have people experienced who joined the armed forces and were deployed somewhere, especially seeing active duty, compared to people who have or will never do thus in their entire lives? A 20-year-old could teach someone 4x older chronologically something, if they had the relevant experiences.
Okay so I went way off on that tangent, but yeah, totally agree! 💯, and even more than 💯 besides 💪.
They will be, it takes time and it takes the mistakes of at least the next ten years to sort it out. Not appreciating that developement simply because it inconveniences you definitely makes you one of those “some people” so take the reminder and give ‘em a little slack.
Frankly, in my experience, the annoyance of a teenager pales in comparison to the annoyance of an array of adults who have had that time to grow and didn’t seem to be capable of using it productively. At least you can work with a kid to figure their shit out, the adult will just kick and scream about nonsense.
I thought like this when I was 15.
Then in my twenties looking back at how I acted when I was a teen I thought "I was really dumb as a kid, I wish I had more supervision from a responsible adult."
Now in my thirties looking back at how I acted when I was in my twenties I think "I was really dumb as a kid, I wish I had more supervision from a responsible adult."
Kids today deserve the option to delete everything about the from the Internet at some point in their 20s. No one needs video evidence of that phase.
My bro has a rule: no public photos of his kids, ever. Shared to family, privately, only.
They're just not old enough to sign away their privacy.
No photos should be the default until they turn twenty. It's too easy to fuck up or be taken advantage of.
being dumb and worthy of respect are not mutually exclusive.
Supervision doesn't have to be patronizing or demeaning. A 15 year-old isn't dumb anymore, merely ignorant and impulsive which does tend to make them shitheads but that's kind of a separate problem.
Most adults are shockingly bad at understanding and explaining their own thoughts and rationales, including to other adults. So when interacting with a teenager, they either throw their hands up or fall back on "shut up and do as I say" as one would with a 5 year-old.
That's where teens can be failed really badly by the adults around them because they are at an age where unlike children they are mostly/fully equipped to understand "adult" advice, and will not blindly follow orders anymore. But they also need way more advice, guidance and explanation than an actual adult. I think that's where the post is getting at. Don't forget that teens are kids, but don't treat them like they are subhuman or lacking in agency.
Sounds all well and good until you don't have any responsible adults around you
I'm in my late 20, I was failed as a child and teen. Not because I had too much freedom, but because the adults did not treat me with respect, like a person, and were not responsible. I mean, my parents were straight up abusive, but it's not like anyone else helped
I would have unironically been better off alone
I was dumb, frustrated, angry, inexperienced, foolish, and worst of all, I was often right. I was dealing with some pretty heavy shit as a 15 year old. I had just started seriously questioning my gender. I was struggling with mental illness that was starting to cripple me because I didn’t know how to cope and couldn’t explain it well enough. My grades were slipping from those two things. Oh and I was starting to realize my parents didn’t love or like each other as my family began crumbling. And as a young millennial it was starting to become apparent I was about to inherit a world that wasn’t doing so great.
And at the same time I was a fucking moron. I couldn’t express what was wrong and if you’d asked me any of those things I’d’ve probably denied most of them. I straight up did deny the first two, knowingly lying on a psychiatric exam.
I needed the room to try and fail. But I also needed to be shown that what I was going through wasn’t what life was supposed to be like. I wish I could go back and tell my teenage self the words to express her needs, to slap her into studying (and slip her some Wellbutrin), and to reassure her that the lessons she’s learning from her parents’ marriage will provide her with equal measures of understanding necessary for her own happy marriage and fuel for therapy.
And yeah I try to apply those lessons to the teenagers I know
Wait until your 40s
Maybe then I can find a responsible adult to look after me?
Was that supposed to stop after 15?
Because as a woman-type creature, born and raised, that has been the whole life experience so far…
And I’m more than twice that age now..
Having a baby face+being short will also do that to ya. Like, brother, we are the same damn age, why are you treating me like a child
Man I bet, that shit is rough. I’m also super short (two standard deviations below average for my a/s/l) and it just never stops being a thing.
I’m actually thankful for all my gray hair so people stop treating me like a goddamned child. The gray has its own drawbacks ofc, but I don’t care anymore, just don’t treat me like a kid.
My mother stopped using intimidation to get her way after I became aggressive at 23.
Going chimp is the only way so far that works for setting and enforcing boundaries. Some people shouldn't be treated as human, but as ape. Watching nature documentaries helped me learn how to deal with pos family members.
Yeah mate I don’t have that option. “Going ape/chimp” at my size and general demeanor just looks like impotent rage, because it is. What is a 5 foot nothing going to do against anyone as far as boundary enforcement? (I used to wrestle; I know how to throw myself around, and I know I don’t stand a chance if most people call my bluff, but I’m fierce until you do call said bluff)
And the people aren’t family, but society as a whole. My family is all dead and doesn’t matter. Until she died, my mom was my most vocal advocate, that woman loved everything I represented that she could never be but wanted. But I haven’t had her since I was 23, and I’m almost 40 now so..
Umm, I'm just imagining someone still living off the parents who's screaming like a monkey because his mother asked him to shower once this week. Like what kind of relationship are you allowing to continue where intimidation is effective? If you're reliant on the person, I could understand not feeling like you could set boundaries before. But if you're a healthy functional adult, you shouldn't have to resort to "Going chimp". Just like... live your life. Let them know you're not gonna respond immediately to drama. Give them some distance and minimal effective communication so they know the point (not being an ass, but letting them know that you're an adult with your own situations going on much like they've gone through and they're burdening you now instead of supporting).
So. I was raised by a domestic violence lawyer. She was always really passionate about her job, about fighting abuse.
When I was in middle school, I was abused myself. A teacher. I knew what was happening. I knew what they said to do about - tell a trusted adult. They would know what to do.
My mother, the domestic violence lawyer, always so passionate about stopping abuse. She didn't believe me. I was just a dumb kid, and kids make things up all the time.
I realized there's not much a kid can do to protect themself. "Tell a trusted adult" is the solution, not because adults are more responsible, but because they actually have fucking rights. If an adult has a bad job, they can get up and quit. If I tried to walk away from school, I'd be beaten.
None of the adults wanted to listen to me, so what could I do? Jack fucking shit. I had that teacher for three years until I moved on to high school. I still have the trauma.
Treat kids like people. I don't want to hear any of this shit about how stupid they are. They know more about their own life experience than you do. Listen to them
Dude... That's so depressing to read, I'm so sorry. I'm sure it wouldn't help, and I'm pretty certain I can guess the answer, but did you ever tell your mum when you were older? Are you still in contact with her? Can't blame you if you're not, I probably would go NC myself.
I remember being 15. That's why I'm alright with treating 15-yos as idiot kids
The older I get the more I realize everyone is an idiot. I'm an idiot, everyone I work with is an idiot. Politicians are idiots. Celebrities are idiots. Old, young, doesn't matter. We all float down here and you will all get treated like the idiot I am 🙃
I'm confused, why?
I'm 50 and I don't think I'm an idiot. I don't think I was an idiot when I was 40. I don't think I was an idiot when I was 30. I don't think I was an idiot when I was 20. I don't think most people around me are idiots. Somehow we must have a different definition of "idiot".
I'll have you know I was extremely intelligent at 15. Tested genius levels, at least 95th percentile, probably as high as 98th.
I was still an idiot kid.
I get compliments on my kids behavior so often. People beg me for my secrets. It's simple. I have treated them with respect as an individual person since day one. We only use our words to communicate and we never raise our voices. We apologize when we make mistakes and make it right. We talk about our feelings and work towards compromise. All these rules apply to kids and adults equally.
I grew up with spankings and being told "I'll give you something to cry about if you don't shape up" and "just do as you're told, no questions". I won't repeat those behaviors.
Yep, I talk with teens ~12 y.o. and up just like I would any adult, I have real conversations with them, including debates, and they appreciate it. Hell, it wasn't that long ago that being a teenager or being a young adult wasn't even a concept, you were a kid and around 12/13 you were an adult.
People are always surprised in a good way when kids like me so much and quickly.
It is not hard, I just treat them like a real person, I respect them and actively listen to them.
Kids are so much smarter than people give them credit for and it is not hard to do.
I remember. And what it taught me is that in the eyes of society at large I wasn't a real person until I was 21. It also taught me that society may PUNISH adults who try to treat people under 21 as though they're real human beings. You see, that's (not really) "GROOMING". Also, in any case other than violent criminality, any action a human being takes under the age of 18 is attributable to their guardians, "because they don't understand what they were doing". But the acts of violent criminality? Tried as an adult "because they clearly had to have understood what they were doing".
Look. I hate it, but: we treat children like second class citizens, like pets, like slaves, because it's dangerous to do otherwise. Children are a fucking minefield of legal grey areas and drastically accelerated consequences. The shit you and I live through on a daily basis gets brushed off as "that's just life" but if it happens to a fifteen year old "ARE YOU CRAZY THEY'RE ONLY A CHILD". And I'm not so sure I'd be able to meaningfully or successfully argue against that if I ever found myself in a position where I'm found culpable for someone of that age group.
Gods help me I think I'd rather die than have children of my own, but if I ever did, I'd have to be honest with them about all the terrible features of the society in which we live:
"To me you're a person, and if you ask anyone else you're a person, but if the shit ever went down the law would treat you as though you are a pet. I want you to feel secure in your privacy, in your autonomy, in your possession of material objects, but if anything happens that forces the law to cast its glaring gaze upon our lives they have the power to take everything from both of us.
"It is NOT your fault, but nevertheless we are both hostages until you are emancipated either by the clock running out or by legal declaration. I tell you this not to demoralized you but to prepare you. I do not want you to roll over; I would hope that you might find some way instead to steal your resolve. But the fact is, the society in which we live creates a toxic power dynamic between us. They stand above us, point at me, and command that I must be an adversary to you lest THEY need to step in and become your adversary, and they will be much more painful to deal with than me. This world is a prison and has forced upon me the role as YOUR warden, and if I fail to perform that role to the satisfaction of the authorities, they WILL punish us both.
"I need you to be vigilant. I need you to take care around me. I need you to minimize our household's exposure to liability. But as long as you do that, I will endeavor to stay out of your business. As long as I am not provided a motive upon which I am forced to act, I would like to never have to go into your room or go through your personal effects. I need plausible deniability so that I do not haver to LIE at a jury trial when a judge turns to me and asks 'and you knowingly let this happen under your own roof?' - and even then it's almost equally damning if the legal system has any excuse to accuse of me 'you didn't know this was happening right under your nose!'. But until or unless our camouflage is compromised, I will ensure that you have access to shelter, sustenance, privacy, and dignity."And if your reaction to the prospect of admitting all this to "just a child" is revulsion and dread... THAT very reaction is why we don't treat children like people.
Yeah, this is the first I've seen someone else weirded out by the constant push to up the age you're considered a 'real adult'. I've seen people arguing for the age of consent to be set to 25 and treating people in their 20's like they were 12 year olds.
Like I'm not arguing that old men dating young women isn't gross, but that doesn't make those young women in their 20's children. There's this dehumanizing element to the conversation that's really concerning to me, but the whole sexual abuse aspect of it overshadows the extremely troubling language they're using, so you can't address it.
You can acknowledge inherent power imbalances without resorting to treating the younger party like a kid.
God, the "age of consent" being at 25 freaks me out.. If I didn't become legally an adult when I did I don't know if I would have been still alive today
These thoughts about consent and everything are all well and good as long as you assume a perfectly healthy family. But what if it's not? What if it's dysfunctional? Or abusive? What if the environment you're in is straight up unhealthy for you?
It really feels like child abuse is very much an afterthought. Despite it being much much more common than people in the past thought. And child abuse is something that comes along with you through your entire life, and if you don't at least try to handle it, you're just left a broken person further harming yourself in ways that society is not kind towards, and we're left with what society considers to be "problem" people.
We really need a middle zone... Human brains don't reach full maturity until around age 25 when the prefrontal cortex is done developing, and quite frankly I think it could be argued that the thing that makes a human a human is the prefrontal cortex. However, that part of the brain "turns on" at the onset of puberty. It takes about 12 years for the human brain to really master the whole controlling a human body thing, and another 12 for it to master the whole thinking and conceptualizing and thinking ahead (and a bunch of other stuff). That second 12 year span should be treated differently than both the first span and adulthood.
And what it taught me is that in the eyes of society at large I wasn't a real person until I was 21. It also taught me that society may PUNISH adults who try to treat people under 21 as though they're real human beings. You see, that's (not really) "GROOMING".
🚩
Grooming has a pretty widely understood meaning. If you believe you've been incorrectly accused of that please take a moment to reflect on why that might be.
Edit: it's been pointed out to me the "groomer" has be co-opted (cynically I'd say deliberately)
Grooming has a pretty widely understood meaning. If you believe you've been incorrectly accused of that please take a moment to reflect on why that might be.
You're being a bit overdramatic with that red flag.
It might be because they suggested that kids ought to be allowed to walk down the street without a chaperone.
Or because they were caught having a perfectly normal conversation with a minor they don't know. Not about anything remotely sexual, just talking to them at all.
It might also be because they're gay. Or trans. Or a drag queen. Or tried to keep books on any of those groups from being banned from the library. Or admitted in the classroom that any of them even exist.
Grooming used to have a widely agreed upon meaning. These days (in the US at least) it's more often used as a political term to demean and other whoever the right wing doesn't like.
My dad treated me like that. After my mom died, my dad treated me like a small adult over whom he had no authority for the entirety of my teenage years, didn’t go through my room, didn’t tell me what to do, but tried to reason with me and convince me.
It didn’t work out well, because I was a child. I was nowhere near mature enough to handle that responsibility (my siblings and I were three stereotypes of too much freedom when we were younger- a recovering alcoholic, a born again Christian, and a kleptomaniac) and it made me feel unloved and like a burden. He does love me and was living the golden rule, but it turns out it’s not universally applicable.
Hence the impasse we find ourselves upon...
I would be ethically unable to treat a human being like a subhuman pet even though, as you said:
(...) to reason with <children> and convince <children> (...) didn't with out well, because <they are> children.
... and that they are not adults.
Nowhere near mature enough to handle that responsibility.
To NOT treat them as equal, to acknowledge their incompleteness as sapient beings, puts me in an impossible position. Parenting makes hypocrites of us all. Some of us can't do it. I would be unable to do it. I know better than to try. It's simply not within my capacity to undermine the autonomy of a being without feeling like I'm punishing them. To do so to a being that has not done anything wrong is corrosive to my humanity.
You have my sympathy that it was so difficult for you to go through. I endeavor to NEVER put someone through that.
Kids seem to very quickly run you over if you treat them like people unless they think you're cool AF.
I was working as a flight instructor in my early 20's. I'd occasionally get "So, how long have you been...flying?" from new students I was meeting for the first time. "Oh, since about 9 this morning" was my usual response.
That shit usually stopped after about 20 minutes in the air. They'd try level turns or even leveling off at altitude and slosh all over the sky, then I'd hook a pinkie on the stick* and the plane would magically straighten right out. You could feel the moment they realized "Oh, this kid genuinely is qualified for this job," and man was that satisfying. Youth does not equal useless.
*This plane had a single stick in between the seats, and for training an extension would be added above the grip so the student and instructor can hold the controls at the same time. It meant if I touched the stick students usually saw me do it.
all this bullshit about taking their phones away...they have to wake up at 7am for school and be there all day, they can't even have one bit of joy? they can't do banter during class or record a lecture or look stuff up? why are we acting like school has to be strict because it has to seem strict
The older I get the more I think school and college are the way they are for aesthetics more than effective education. And having gone back to college after earning a flight instructor certificate has convinced me at least some professors haven't so much as looked up the word "learn" in a dictionary.
Not if I abort them first
