If China wants Taiwan it should also reclaim land from Russia, says president
If China wants Taiwan it should also reclaim land from Russia, says president
Lai Ching-te highlights Beijing’s contrasting approach to territorial loss during ‘century of humiliation’
fuck it why not also Korea and Japan and Mongolia and Vietnam and
Because that might mean doing something, and not just having a totem to direct the hate of the people against, the all-powerful, cruel west, who has humiliated China for centuries, even causing the deaths of 50 million Chinese (at the hands of the CCP during the great leap forward).
Stupid politics for stupid people, a common story the world around.
The assumptions of how china thinks in this thread are hilarious, so many people just making stuff up because it allows them to feel superior.
Especially you throwing big numbers around which you clearly don't have any concept of what they represent, you saw memes that china killed 50 million people and instead of having any curiosity you just use it as a crude cudgel and swing meaninglessly. It's sad but also kind of funny to me, if you had any concept of history you could have written a post that makes sense but instead you just want to find an excuse to call people stupid - is that not ironic to you, calling out people for stupid politics when you know full well you've just invented your argument based on zero actual understanding of what you're talking about? Isn't that a far better example of stupid politics for stupid people?
There's plenty of good reasons to call this statement as its presented stupid but you missed them all and went for something stupid.
Oh, it will get territory from Russia. As soon as Putin has no resources left to sell besides land and people. And China won't take drunk and depressed people. Has enough of such.
Russia is facing a demographic crisis because Putin’s a goddamn moron. Their population is shrinking (thank fuck). If they were to relinquish land willingly (which I cannot imagine), it would never be any region with significant population.
There was a giant drop in the number of men in the Soviet Union during WWII. This has had "echos" in their population pyramid every 20 years, where there's a shortfall of new babies being born. They never had a baby boom the way the US did.
This affects all the old Soviet states, including Ukraine.
All that is to say that Putin was a real goddamn idiot by launching a war right in the middle of one of these echos when they're already having population issues.
I have been wondering since this war started, what's preventing China from just taking ALL of Russia. Like, 2021? That's Russia. 2025? That's China now.
Russia would never threaten China with nukes, because 1) China ALSO has nukes, and 2) China has been the only thing keeping Russia afloat recently.
So what if something like 9,000,000 soldiers all collectively invaded Russia from one central entrypoint as far east as Chinas border is along Russias, thus splitting Russias military in a two way war.
The United States wouldn't get involved because that would mean they're helping Russia. But also, who else WOULD get involved? Putin is lucky that China doesn't have ME as it's head of state. Because from my perspective, it's free real estate that nobody wants to defend, being occupied by a tiger army, and it's land is full of resources that if China were to monopolize, would grant them a grip around the balls of the rest of the world.
But it would have to be a scorched earth kind of invasion. The kind that pisses off basically everyone, because it leaves every single Russian, military, or citizen, dead. They'd have to come in, take everything, and kill everything. Take the land. The only thing they have to make sure of, is that they DON'T fight Ukraine. They tell Ukraine "We won't invade your space, but Russia is ours". And Ukraine would probably take that deal.
But it seems China is very VERY averse to war right now. Which tells me, they aren't ready for a war.
Because the real world is not a Civ game.
Believe it or not, China isn't Russia. I can't believe I'm in the position of defending the PRC, but the PRC doesn't want the international order destroyed by reckless and unrestrained warfare. They just want to replace the West as top dog in that order. They'll bully and bluster, just as the US does when the carrot doesn't work, but, Taiwan aside, they don't have any desire to start an expensive and pointless war.
Right? Why do civilizations fight wars anyway? If not flat out colonialism and dick measuring, then It’s usually for resources, maybe protection for cultural exclaves if it serves the nation’s geopolitical interest.
All that is to say, Russians are not Chinese. And I don’t think many Eastern Russians would welcome the switch. So, China would be instigating a lot of strife for minimal gains.
Taiwan on the other hand, I can at least understand. I don’t agree with the stance, not in the least, primarily because I believe democracy is superior to communism. Nevertheless, if I had my adversaries 100 miles off my border and their existence hampered me economically and militarily, then I absolutely would subjugate them in any way possible.
Russia is an important geopolitical ally for China. Tension between them is not advantageous at this time.
Also, Americans love dunking on the Russian army, and while it maybe wasn’t as formidable as we thought, it’s still significant. It’s not as if it would be totally free.
what’s preventing China from just taking ALL of Russia
What for? Russia is already drifting into becoming a China's satellite state. Besides, there's another resource-rich, sparsely populated, 99.9% Asian country right by their border, with barely any security and which would've been part of China already if not for some weeb. If they are going for conquest, Mongolia would be the second target right after Taiwan, but attacking it would tip off Russia to go all in on defense.
Russia would never threaten China with nukes, because 1) China ALSO has nukes, and 2) China has been the only thing keeping Russia afloat recently.
The problem here is the amount of them and population density. Just one bomb dropped randomly somewhere in China would probably cause more casualties than the entire Chinese nuclear arsenal targeting the most populous Russian cities. And Russia has an order of magnitude more...
Mongolia is a democracy and NATO partner there's a chance that the west would actually care. Mostly though neither China or Russia are even trying to touch it because they prefer having a buffer state in between them that is not aligned to either, but has the diplomatic wherewithal to have good relationships with both.
Also it's a fucking desert plateau. There's a reason there's so few Mongolians. Few things grow there and practically nothing grows well, and there already is quite an issue with overgrazing because animal husbandry is pretty much the only thing you can actually do on the land. And who is to say that copper is going to be cheaper after you conquer the land? It's not like Mongolia would be unwilling to export. Even if you could do it for cheaper, still probably not worth the political headache. And sanctions.
Blime the bloody baron's bio is a ride
You're right, nobody wants to defend it. There's nothing there worth defending. I mean, there's Vladivostok, but it's not really worth going to war over. They could take a sliver of land at the Russia/NK border so that they could build a port, but I'm sure they have no issue with river traffic as it is, or just trucking into North Korea to use one of their ports. I'm sure China funded their construction anyway.
Russia would never threaten China with nukes, because 1) China ALSO has nukes, and 2) China has been the only thing keeping Russia afloat recently.
But it would have to be a scorched earth kind of invasion. The kind that pisses off basically everyone, because it leaves every single Russian, military, or citizen, dead. They'd have to come in, take everything, and kill everything. Take the land.
First of all, if you're being invaded by an army planning to genocide your entire population, then you have no reason not to use every weapon in your arsenal. If the options are A: China kills 100% of your populace or B: Launch nukes and even 1% of your populace survives whatever follows, then B is the most rational choice.
Secondly, there's no reason to assume that states will make rational decisions to begin with. I'd say the current state of affairs in Ukraine is a very good example of that in action. So even if China wasn't planning to genocide all of Russia, even if it was some kind of "benevolent" invasion where they were going to tiptoe around the flower beds, gently pry Putin out of the Kremlin, and basically leave everything the same except that now Russians pay for groceries with renminbi instead of rubles... there's still every reason to imagine that Putin and his top brass would still launch nukes on the mere principle of the thing.
So no, let's not glibly plan for a fast forward on nuclear Armageddon, thank you very much.
The only thing of value in Russian territory is mineral resources, not the territory itself. China has vast, unpopulated territories (check a population density map). If they deem the minerals not worth the conflict, why bother? They can just buy whatever shit they want.
On a less deranged take, there's definitely potential to mend the Sino-Soviet split. Their interests and capabilities dovetail quite a bit, but I suspect unification is wildly impractical for any number of cultural and historic reasons. OTOH, if they presented a Warsaw Pact-style alliance, perhaps using the cudgel of mutually assured economic destruction instead of nuclear destruction, that's a hell of an act for the West to try to follow.
The US would get involved, two advisaries attacking each other would give the US opportunities to leverage influence and destabilize. The dangerous thing is that they have nukes so there is a delicate balance when trying to destabilize while ensuring advance weaponry does not fall into the wrong hands.
I would have much more respect for China if they used that as the bargaining chip to force Puttie to cut the shit and end this thing
Russia has kinda shitty land afaik. Not a ton of resources either, iirc. I believe a decent chunk of it is tagia forests and (soon to be) swampy permafrost zone. Not that much of china's land is great for stuff like farming either. Bragging rights, I guess, but other than the people, I think most land is of little use.
Ah, well you see, China doesn't have a casus belli to claim all of Russia. Of course, they might have deployed their foreign minister over to Fabricate Claims, but if so, they haven't had much success with it. The most they could take right now is a duchy or a county, and it's just not worth the Prestige penalty, or the costs of keeping their levies raised long enough to get their Warscore to 100%.
Because China has never had expansionist ambitions. I know that goes against hundreds of years of Yellow Peril tropes in Western media, but it's true.
China's history has been a cycle of ethnic Han states uniting into a larger ethnic Han state, and then splitting, and then re-uniting. As Han populations spread, those areas would eventually be integrated into China, but China had very little interest in annexing non-Han areas.
Before anyone asks, Tibet was unified with China when both areas were conquered by the Mongols. It wasn't an act of Chinese expansion.
And Vietnam was considered to be a Han area. The literate classes of Vietnam spoke Chinese and were culturally Chinese before being incorporated into the Han dynasty.
Because China has never had expansionist ambitions. I know that goes against hundreds of years of Yellow Peril tropes in Western media, but it’s true.
That's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard in my life.
No, of course they don't have expansionist ambitions, because they consider a large part of Siberia theirs, including Primosky Krai which was ceded by the Qing after the opium wars, they lost Korea and Taiwan in the Sino-Japenese War.
They want what every country that once owned 1 speck of sand beyond their borders 1000 years ago wants: "Repayment of past injustices!", just like Israelis want Israel and Jerusalem, Russia wants Ukraine and the other republics, Andalusia wants independence.
Sometime, long ago, their country was great, and they deserve it back, because the moment it had the largest borders was the right moment, and everything since then is an insult to their greatness.
Moscow to this day still considers itself heir to Rome, as stupid as that sounds, the greatest empire in history devolving into a bunch of drunk gangsters and pimps.
what's preventing China from just taking ALL of Russia
The same thing that's made china not have an overt military conflict for the past half century: they're not a militaristic, expansionist country. I know that's inconceivable for bloodthirsty Americans, but really, give it a thought, which country has participated in more overt conflicts in the past half century.
The same thing that's made china not have an overt military conflict for the past half century: they're not a militaristic, expansionist country.
Uh..
The Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia all disagree..
India disagrees.
Nepal disagrees.
Bhutan disagrees.
I could keep going but my train is almost at my stop. China tries their best to keep their conflicts on the quiet-side to prevent sanctions like the west did to Russia.
That is what the Chinese leadership likes to claim. That it’s cultural, and their culture is one of trade and cooperation, not expansion. And I don’t doubt that they are earnest in saying that. I mean they truly believe themselves to be different. But we know that once a power becomes global, i.e. when its interests and investments extend well beyond its borders, its military presence will also expand, and it will engage in conflict to protect said global interests. Whether it’s the US, Russia, or China, the dynamic at a certain level is the same. China is already growing a more formidable army and expanding into the South China Sea. This is only the beginning.
What? Russia's computer chips are like shit kids make in their garages in any civilized country. What would anyone want with Russians?
Don't threaten them with a good time.
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Come the fuck on. Taiwan was returned to China after WW2. It's where the Chinese national govt fled to (you know, adversary), it's populated by Chinese, and is strategically important because it blocks China in. I don't like the situation any more than anyone else but let's discuss it intelligently rather than stupid gotchas.
Stupid gotchas have their place in undermining imperialistic narratives about how Taiwan “rightfully” belongs to the PRC.
No territory rightfully belongs to anyone but it’s inhabitants.
What do you think the situation would be if the US Civil War ended in a stalemate? Either side drove the other to Long Island, except in this case Long Island controls all your sea access. (If they were both adamant on taking over the other and neither side signed a peace treaty.) That's what this is, it's a civil war that never ended. I'm going to leave the rest of that one alone, but you should explore your line of thinking on it.
it blocks china in
How exactly does a small island off the south east coast block China in?
There's a string of Japanese islands from Japan to Taiwan called the Ryukyu Islands. If someone wanted to use those islands to block China in, it would be extremely simple. Between Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and in the South Philippines, Malaysia they are easily blocked in. If they have Taiwan they have an out, that's why they want it so badly (besides all the other things).
It really clicked in for me when I saw these kind of maps. These ones aren't quite as good or blatant, you have to look a bit more carefully. Remember Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Philippines and Malaysia are US allies.
https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/an-astronauts-view-reveals-chinas-geopolitical-claustrophobia/
https://www.geostrategy.org.uk/research/the-chinese-perspective-of-the-pacific-region/
OK. Taiwan wants to be independent. It effectively already is.
Done.
Here's a thought experiment: Take the US civil war, the Confederacy says it's the real US. Does that make it a country? Does the North get to say anything about that? Who decides what?
In this case Taiwan has never said it's it's own country, you can thank the delusional kmt for that. They (Taiwan) said they are the real China. So in our thought experiment: the Confederacy says it's the US, the North says it's the US, and nothing goes anywhere. Who gets to say what? Do foreign countries get a say?