I don't think there is a single person behaves that way online that thinks it doesn't change the person they are IRL. It's just online they have the balls to be the person they really want to be.
I know a couple of people (brothers) who definitely thought that online wasn't real and they could act without any consequences in their real life. This was back in the 00's when social media was just catching on. They were absolutely awful to real life friends online and then acted like nothing happened in person. They lost pretty much every friend they had as a result of it. I still don't talk to either of them. We tried to explain to them multiple times that it was absolutely unacceptable behavior, and they thought it was funny.
Oh you sweet summer child. Everyone is the hero of their own adventure.
Zizek says that our online persona is our real persona, because it doesn't have the weights and limitations of our physical bodies and can be free to express as itself.
I don’t know, this sounds very mind body duality to me but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume such a duality exists?
I think being removed from legal or social ramifications enables a lot of misbehavior. If there were social or legal ramifications for online behavior, then maybe people would behave consistently online and offline. In fact, you see that with places like LinkedIn.
Before social media, “trolling” was a game of inciting reactions without malicious intent. IIRC the norm was to induce anger or reaction or exhaustion without using violent language, like death threats etc. But of course people always behave stupidly for any number of reasons! The death threat people, from my old school pov, are not OG trolls. The death threat people are politically motivated actors or sociopaths.
So I think it’s less about being real online vs fake, and more about what you’re doing vs everyone else. If you’re looking for a cozy time online, then someone coming in to incite reaction by being contrarian (because that’s interesting to them) would seem aggravating to you, and that’s just unkind of the contrarian person (or troll).
If you’re shitposting and assume everyone is just a troll trolling trolls (and that’s true), then all interactions are performative and a game. However this cannot apply anymore because the rules of engagement on the web have changed, and there a lot more people online now with different needs and different expectations. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being inclusive. The chans etc. are filled with glowies or nation state actors, so it’s not worth engaging in old school trolling in any form because you just provide convenient camouflage for people with malicious intent or political agendas.
So in short no, I don’t think body vs non body is the reason for differences in irl or online behavior.
I genuinely miss the good-spirited trolling that existed before the political-minded decided to abuse it, ruining it for everyone :'/
If you’re shitposting and assume everyone is just a troll trolling trolls (and that’s true), then all interactions are performative and a game. However this cannot apply anymore because the rules of engagement on the web have changed, and there a lot more people online now with different needs and different expectations. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being inclusive.
Maybe I just have an old school mentality about this, but wouldn't this be kinda, a better stance to take, even if you were looking for a cozy time online? Would it not be the more accommodating position? A troll is easier to dismiss out of hand for being bad faith, rather than assuming someone who's good faith, but inflammatory, has entered into your space and decided to talk shit and incite reaction. One of those cuts it off before you spend more thought process on it. Thought terminating cliches are useful sometimes, for controlling your own behavior and not engaging with that which you do not wish to seriously engage. Which, I think, is something we need more much of, online. The fallacies are fine, it's just that they are meant to be helpful to you, personally, rather than being a kind of, moral creed to which we all must conform, a creed that must be enforced, if not by strict rule, than by a kind of unspoken social norm, by chastisement.
I think probably it's also weird that people comment like "this person is a troll" or "this person is a bot" as like, a kind of weird flag that's supposed to be helpful, but then they expect not to get engaged with after they post that, by the poster. I'm not super convinced the people doing that "flagging" are always doing it in good faith, though, anyways.
Makes sense. It does make me wonder how many people I meet IRL secretly want to beat me up though.
I think this as well. People in on-line video games are so quick to flame, troll, and ruin a game. But Ask them if they think it reflects poorly on them and they'll either get defensive, victim-blame, or say they were just joking. They complain about having bad community scores in these games, and blame literally everyone else before they can admit any semblance of culpability. Saw it in DOTA 2, saw it in Smite, and every other online forum.
However, we all lose our cool sometimes. I am usually the chillest dude on the server, but if I've had 3 games in a row of being flamed, trolled, having teammates quit, and on that fourth game some teammate "woohoo's" my death? I'm already so steamed from the previous games that I'll unleash a nasty comment right back, even if the dude accidentally hit the wrong emoticon thing. And if they are legit trolling, and I'm fed up? yeah, that's definitely a nasty message right back at'em.
I guess I'm trying to say, we all lose our cool on-line once in a while, just like we all lose our cool in real life once in a while. Those once-in-a-while situations don't define us, as long as most-of-the-time we're chill. But if you're edging towards losing your cool most-of-the-time, with your chill moments only once-in-a-while? then yeah, man. you're the a-hole.
The only difference is that if you do it online and not in real life, you're a coward, two-faced, or both.
The true test of a person's character is what he they do when no one is watching.
with no apologies to john wooden
Sleep, and sometimes masturbate?
You think no one is watching? :)
Try to do a D.Urge bg3 chaotic evil run but then quit because I feel bad?
There is no division between who you pretend to be and who you are.
This is quite the nice message in view of imposter syndrome too. If you're being a kind person online then you are simply a kind person.
If you're being a kind person online chances are you're a paedo incel.
humans regularly put on acts. Work, love life, friends, family etc. What makes online an exception?
It isn't. People who are willing to act like assholes, in any context, are assholes. What is the criteria for being an asshole if it isn't acting like one?
I suppose notable exception for literal actors playing a role in a performance.
absolute lie!
I am funny when I'm online.
My toxic trait is that online I code switch to calling out bullshit instead of sitting quietly listening to nonsense
Yeah, now that you mention it, the Lemmy version of me is just like the real version of me except I talk to strangers.
I've asked myself in the past, if someone found my account, would they be shocked to read what I posted? I want the answer to be no. I wouldn't want someone IRL to see my account activity and be shocked by what an asshole/troll I am on the internet. I hope that the person I am on the internet is at least as kind as I perceive myself IRL, if not kinder.
Honestly my username is based off my real name and I use it for a number of other things my family members all know about. At best, they might be surprised and some of my comments discussing events they were involved with, and perhaps my descriptions of how the religion some of them are still in harmed me, because I don't bother discussing that with those still religious du3 to not wanting to fight.
Of course, I'm mentioning specifically my comments to reddit and both lemmy accounts. Why do I have two? I started on World then World defederated a few communities I was interested in keeping up with, not because I really participated, but because I like having a balanced input and some were interesting for work (mostly piracy and privacy, as I work in IT). I don't use reddit anymore except maybe old solutions for work stuff, but I still have much more comments there than on lemmy so far.
I disagree with this. The issue is more nuanced than that.
Sometimes people have a bad day now and then, and sometimes a bully needs to be bullied back.
That makes sense, but it seems to support the underlying idea that your internet persona matches your actual persona. Like, those nuances and days that are exceptions to the rule happen in the real world just like online.
Eh.... there are abundant examples of assholes who have learned to pretend to be decent people though.
I think that's the point, if you're an asshole online, but tell yourself you're fine irl. You're lying to yourself and it shows.
Well then that's a clear example of someone pretending to be something they aren't, which contradicts the entire premise. Someone can absolutely pretend to be a saint on social media while being full of vitriol inside. Similarly, expressing anger and frustration on social media does not in any way mean that you're ruled by those things.
The term code-switching comes to mind, but it's not a perfect fit. The linguistic term talks about it more as something that people will do when they aren't able to express an idea in a specific language or dialect. The other time I here it is when talking about racial inequality, and code-switching in that context includes how one dresses, talks, behaves, etc.
In the same fashion that folks can be normal in social settings but shitty online, I've often heard that abuse happens in private because abusers only allow themselves to be abusive in private. This sounds very similar to the concept of code switching, though is almost the opposite of what it usually means. I do not know of a term for it.
Long story short, you are the ultimate decider of how you act, and you are yourself in all contexts. Take responsibility for your behavior in all contexts, because it matters in all contexts.
At the same time, though, I am a determinist who views humans as animals running off the same reward systems as any other animal, and thus equally likely to be 'unconscious' of their problematic behaviors. The seed of self control, the very idea of autonomy and personal responsibility, needs to be planted in many people. That role initially falls upon the parents, then the teachers as well, and then the individual's community. If none of that occurs, then it is no longer any small collection's duty, but the duty of society at large. So punch Nazis - you're doing them a favor.
Ah, that's like multilingual speakers. They tend to have different personalities per language spoken.
Denis Leary taught me how to proudly be an asshole a long time ago. Lessons worth living.
I think this is due to the person’s definition of asshole being someone who sends death threats
That isn't being disputed, it's just not a good excuse that someone can do it because everyone else is
The post literally says, "If you are the kind of person who shouts death threats in a strangers social media dms, you are no different than [the] kind of person who shouts death threats to a stranger in the steeet." But we have over a decade of data showing that they are very different people, that anonymity and online detachment cause otherwise normal people to behave this way, and that awareness of the effects of this behavior can curb it. I get that the post is trying to create a moral equivalence, but A) that is simplistic view of digital aggression and B) calling people assholes online just contributes to digital aggression.
It's the greater internet fuckwad theory
I mean, kinda but not really. Death threats? Yeah, you're a definite asshole. Same with slurs.
But, like, we've all been assholes in real life. And I've certainly been an asshole online, whether it be trolling, saying ez, or "gg...but not you teammate" in rocket league, being an instigator, etc. I'm less likely to troll and be an instigator in real life, and I rarely am. But definitely have been.
I dunno. I don't consider myself an asshole, especially for being an instigator in RL. Even though I have been, and probably will be again, both online and in the real world. It's kinda high-and-mighty to just label people perpetual assholes based on if they're being an asshole online, or if they were an asshole on one occasion.
Like it would be pretty stupid if I thought the OP has a persistent holier-than-thou attitude both on-and-offline based on this one post.
Now that I'm thinking about it, kind of an asshole thing to accuse someone of -- being holier-than-thou. Guess I'm an asshole. lol
Do you think it matters to the people you're trolling or calling names whether you do it online, over text or to their face? I'm not saying you're a perpetual asshole, but it seems like you think that's an ok thing to do online, which makes you an asshole occasionally. Be better man, you don't know how the person on the opposite side reacts
It totally does matter. I don't know who's on the other side of that, or what they're dealing with.
It does depend on the nature of the trolling. I'm saying these things mostly with hindsight -- I definitely don't troll any more, and when I did, it was really just like getting in reddit arguments and then commenting nonsense. So, pretty benign stuff. I don't feel much guilt because honestly, while I was being an asshole, I wasn't ever really mean. And I was young, and I've come to terms with the fact that I made mistakes as a kid.
Nowadays my online assholery is mostly reserved for people who initiate trash talk in Rocket League. And even then, I'll just hit em with "ur bad". I consider that being an asshole, but I don't consider myself an asshole because of it.
But I get what you're saying. I am kinda making it out as if it's okay to be a dick online. It isn't. I guess its hard to balance that with the understanding that it is just easier to fall into the trap of assholery behind a screen, or a windshield, or anonymous comment.
Actually I'm fairly charismatic and confident online and on the phone but IRL I'm a nervous wreck so this theory is false ;)
This is about assholes, not people with social anxiety issues.
"There is no devision between who you are on social media and who you are for real"
But what if my rape and death threats were just, like a joke? Pft
I think batman was wrong, the joker was right, and realistically it does just take one bad day. Everyone having the capacity for horribleness doesn't really take away from the nobility of people escaping that horribleness, though, or "choosing" not to engage in it. If anything, I would think it'd make that decision more noble.
At the same time, where does that leave the joker? Does it matter whether or not he "chose" to be the joker, or if he was just predisposed to be that way? I dunno, I don't really think so. The core reality remains the same, or else there is no/little coherence to reality, and we live inside of a chaotic hellscape. Which I'm not, you know, fully prepared to deny, but more I think my denialism would probably come from the idea that I need to enforce my own coherence on reality, to simply believe in it regardless of the validity.
Somebody stop me if I sound like I've lost my mind and this is totally off-topic, though.
In other news: the sky is blue.
I'm an asshole.
Death threats though? That's.... Another level.
It's pretty bizarre to see how many people agree with this take though. Every single one of us has said something online we probably wouldn't say to someone's face because we all understand that a shitty comment online does not hold the same weight as one offline does. Everything on here is impersonal, offhanded, out of pocket comments with strangers you'll probably never even check the reply to. The interaction lasts as long as your attention span for it does.
It's quite literally nothing alike. Walking up to a stranger, singling them out, then saying some fucked up shit has several immediate consequences you're never exposed to online. Their facial reaction, their tone, their body language, signs we would read and associate as honest hurt we've caused which to any non-psychopath would in turn make us feel hurt for our words our actions. All shit I don't experience when I tell some dickhead to suck shit through a straw.
Humans are social creatures (no shit) and the internet is not yet advanced enough to convey every aspect we've evolved and developed to communicate properly offline.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo
I kind of disagree with you. For the most part if I've said something online I meant it. I may not say it to a person face to face but that usually is because of their threat level, not how shitty or unshitty the comment I'm making is. There's also other factors like there being a time and place etc. So I'm not gonna call someone an asshole who's mom just died, even if they are an asshole. But I generally agree that if you're an asshole online you're probably an asshole in real life. Online is a somewhat extreme extension of self. Filters exist for social reasons but that doesn't make filterless comments any less you than filtered ones.
I think the example didn't make the point very well. An asshole online is going to be an asshole in real life. They're probably not screaming death threats at people in the streets, out of fear of the consequences, but they're a dick in many other ways, for sure. Think that's the part people are agreeing with.
I still maintain that's nonsense. I'm confrontational, argumentative, and often just a real piece of shit online. My patience for people spewing complete stupidity with bold confidence ran out during the covid conspiracy theories. Yet, I greet every stranger with sir and ma'am even ones with fucking Trump hats on or "Biden crime family" bumper stickers. People I would light up on here.
These are different environments and those differences shouldn't be disregarded for the sake of a "gotcha! You're a dick here, there, everywhere - Sam I am"
Humans are social creatures (no shit) and the internet is not yet advanced enough to convey every aspect we've evolved and developed to communicate properly offline.
The internet supports high res video chat. If you can't convey the same shit over video chat that you can in a real face to face conversation then I need to ask how you use telepathy because I want to as well.
Mm, yes, I really really really want to turn on a full body video camera every time I read and respond to online comments. That sounds super fucking practical with the technology and online social structures that we could implement it tomorrow. You're a revolutionary who will be praised by historians for centuries to come.
By advanced I mean a solution that isn't so flagrantly stupid yet accomplishes the same or similar goals as offline interactions. We can't even reliably convey sarcasm without overtly stating it - defeating the point of sarcasm.
It sounds to me that you need to live a little more ...
