Got myself some energy monitoring Zigbee plugs and made an interesting discovery
Got myself some energy monitoring Zigbee plugs and made an interesting discovery
I'm in the process of getting my Home Assistant environment up and running, and decided to run a test: it turns out that my gaming PC (custom 5800X3D/7900XTX build) uses more power just sitting idle, than both of my storage freezers combined.
Background: In addition to some other things, I bought two "Eightree" brand Zigbee-compatible plugs to see how they fare. One is monitoring the power usage of both freezers on a power strip (don't worry, it's a heavy duty strip meant for this), and the other is measuring the usage of my entire desktop setup (including monitors and the HA server itself, a Lenovo M710q).
After monitoring these for a couple days, I decided that I will shut off my PC unless I'm actively using it. It's not a server, but it does have WOL capability, so if I absolutely need to get into it remotely, it won't be an issue.
Pretty fascinating stuff, and now my wife is completely on board as well; she wants to put a plug on her iMac to see what it draws, as she uses it to hold her cross-stitch files and other things.
I discovered a similar issue. PC desk was using 8-9W when the PC was turned OFF! My power strip was taking a bit under 1W (the little light, old), two smart bulbs as well but I'll allow those losses. An older Logitech speaker setup (2+1) was taking 6-7W, turned off! Crazy.. and illegal if it were made today (in EU). So this is completely wasted energy in my opinion.. started disconnecting the whole desk now.
For comparison, my home server is averaging 7-8W, turned on all the time:
I also learned that PC's draw a lot of power lol. I used to sit on my PC all day, now I know how much it cost. Even the monitor turning off splits the power draw by half.
Chest freezers are exceptionally energy efficient. It's not a very good comparison.
Ah, but only one is a chest freezer 😉
That, and I used to have a freezer that was a power suck.
I also found out something interesting. My desktop uses about 1/3 of the power one of my freezers do. :)
That's either a really efficient PC or a really old freezer 😂
The PC is effecient. It's not a gaming PC. It idles at around 16W and maxes out at 80'ish.
Couple of thoughts:
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That smart plug may not be rated to the max wattage when GPU and CPU are at full blast. Be careful, because that could be an expensive mistake. Place a surge protector between the smart plug and the PC to be safe. Also run the PC full tilt for a while and make sure the smart plug doesnt get warm. If it does, fores have been known to start from those.
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Sounds like you know this with WoL, but suspend is your friend 😉 If the gaming PC is linux and you run into suspend issues, let me know, I've seen 'em all.
Place a surge protector between the smart plug and the PC to be safe.
What benefit does this serve in this situation?
how do you deal with kb+trackpad not working after wake?
The plugs are rated for 1800W each. Should be fine. I hit 670W a bit earlier, running Furmark VK and Cinebench R23 multi-core simultaneously for shits and giggles.
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My desktop PC idles quite high as well. The semi high-end consumer motherboards on the AMD side tend to use a lot of power at idle, so I think that's a big part of it (at least the x570 series, can't speak for later). And as others have said, high refresh rate and multiple monitors can make things worse.
I'll add though that people's perception of how much power there system is using can be skewed by software based monitoring tools. People may think there system is using only 50W because that's what software reports but it's actually drawing a 100W at the wall.
I'm eyeballing HWINFO64 right now, it's saying my GPU is idling at ~28W and the CPU is idling at ~36W. Add a couple watts for the fans, various peripherals, and waste heat; it's close to what I saw earlier.
The dual 1080p monitors eat up about 30W apiece on their own, when powered and actively displaying something. Barely a watt or two each when in standby mode.
My X670E system also uses a shitload of power. Literally 150w at idle, no matter what I do. Tried disabling every unnecessary feature in the BIOS and enabling all the energy efficient settings I can find, to no avail. Drives me nuts.
Those storage freezers are doing nothing the vast majority of the time. Not really a fair comparison.
Yeah, I noticed haha. Though I did have a big freezer some years ago that was a pretty hefty power suck... I never measured it, but it definitely affected my power bill.
It has never occured to me my whole life to not suspend or shut down computers overnight. It wakes up in like 2 seconds why wouldnt you, even if it used only an extra 1W
The problem I have with this I put the PC to sleep overnight every night - and like clockwork, Windows wakes it back up sometime overnight to do.. Something.
I've been diagnosing the issue for years - checking wake timers, switching hardware devices permissions to wake the system off. I might fix it for a few months and then a new Windows update comes along and it's back to its usual routine of waking itself.
Looking forward to seeing if it persists with Linux when I move at the end of support period for Win10 later this year.
Looking forward to seeing if it persists with Linux
I have never had what you described happen in my past 15 years of using linux, i hope you find your way around things, linux is dope once you get used to it.
My PC goes down from 70W idle to 2W when suspended. I also have a master slave power strip, that turns of all my peripherals (speakers, lights, audio interface, etc) when the PC drops below 10W so that saves some extra energy.
It has never occured to me my whole life to not suspend
Reliability issues with suspend-to-ram are rather common. Shutting down is an option, but session save and restore is a relatively recent thing and not supported by all desktop environments. I.e. it's the post startup part that takes the longest.
You must be pretty young, because back in the dark days of spinning HDDs a computer would take 5+ minutes to boot.
Those days were at worst almost 10 years ago.
Stop living in the past with those situations.And you get an SSD.
And YOU get an SSD.
And you fine sir also get an SSD!Suspend != boot
Even in 2010 or earlier waking a pc from suspend would have only taken 2-3 seconds because the whole system state is in RAM not on disk.
Those were different times.
They are not relevant anymore with current self hosting setups.
TBH I didn't think it used a whole lot at idle, what with modern manufacturing processes and all. I was fairly surprised.
If I'm reading that correctly, that shows the system is drawing around 100W just sitting idle.
Something is not right there.
Either the power meter is way out of calibration, or there is a configuration issue with your PC. Maybe you have a performance setting that is causing the CPU and GPU to not idle down ever? Or a rogue antivirus software that is cranking the CPU constantly?
Are there any spinning disk hard drives in your PC? They can sometimes use around 5W each on idle. That was the biggest cause of idle power consumption on my old xeon server, with 8 HDDs.
PSU choice can also affect it. Eg, if you buy into marketing and buy a monster 850W PSU, but it's idle all the time and only uses 450W under load, then the PSU is spending the whole time outside it's efficiency curve, and can end up causing more power draw than expected.
That's nothing; my Ryzen 7000 machine uses 150w at idle. Modern high-end desktops draw a lot of power.
It's ~90W at idle; the plug is monitoring everything at my desk. No spinning rust, all solid state. Settings for CPU and GPU are all default at the moment. It does have an 850W PSU, but I've had it pulling over 700W at one point (dimming my bedroom lights), so that's somewhat justified 😅
I'll dig into settings later, but for now I'm good just turning it off unless I'm using it.
(dimming my bedroom lights)
Thats terrifying. Your desk outlet should not share a circuit with your bedroom lighting circuit, that makes no sense (unless you're talking about a desk lamp).
And regardless, if a 700W load can make your lights dim, then there's a major wiring issue in your house. Don't plug in an electric cooker, kettle, or space heater until you get that checked out.
What kind of freezers are they? I hear that top loading freezers are quite efficient because the cool doesn't escape when it gets opened like a front loading one.
That's true; once everything inside is brought down to temp, they use very little power to stay cold.
My regular fridge uses ~500-800wh a day (depending on how much it got opened). My chest freezer though, uses ~200wh/day pretty consistently.
One is a smaller chest freezer, about 3 feet tall, probably 6 or 7 cubic feet if I had to guess. The other is a Hamilton Beach upright freezer from Costco. Both are full, so that helps with keeping them cold.
And why the old "ice boxes" are top load only. And why most boat fridges/freezers are top-load, because energy is scares/finite when disconnected from power.
Evaporative clay-pot coolers are also top-load for efficiency.
Any time I clear out the chest freezer to defrost or get to something at the bottom, the lower half stays below freezing for quite a while. Love that little freezer.
Yeah, energy monitoring ruined several things for me. Can't let my PC idle anymore, can only turn on the dishwasher when the sun is shining, need to explain regularly to my wife, why our home network and server infrastructure consume 130 Watts per hour, have to automate all plugs with standby devices connected...
The damn freezer consumes only 400 Watts per day while Network infrastructure, server, Wallpanels and KNX consume 3 Kilowatts, I wish I would have never learned this.
There is a reason people opt for old desktop CPUs and SSD's
Part of why I'm going with the 'T' variant of the Pentium G4560 on my custom NAS build.
I've got a decent handle on my electric bill. I already have it set to "equal pay", so I pay roughly the same amount every month - which includes my server cluster running 24/7.
I did some quick math, and my PC's estimated usage for a month is ~70 kW/h, which is ~$10 in my area. My last power bill was 1,145 kW/h total.
Have you considered putting your gaming pc in one of the storage freezers? /s
Perfect, I don't need to run the fans anymore!
Seriously though - we have 5 kids, and feeding the little shits is expensive, so we freeze a lot of things for storage. I thought for certain the freezers would be power hogs compared to an idling PC, but I was very surprised to be proven wrong.
Next up... Measuring my server cluster 😬
This gave me a serious chuckle... BC I deff considered it. Or keeping the box on balcony in the winter to get few more fps back in the day
A fridge can create a fairly low overall temp, but with something like a PC generating a ton of heat inside, it can't keep up. The fridge just can't move the heat fast enough and becomes an insulated box trapping the heat instead.
Yeah, man, getting into Home Assistant and messing with energy monitoring did more than thousands of chastising TV segments to get me to fully shut down my computers.
Who gives a crap about gaming use power consumption, give me idle benchmarks, you cowards. Do you even know how kWh work?
I love my old desktops that pull almost nothing.
Do you have a link to the plugs? I want to try the same
Sure!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DQTFM1T6
Just plug it in, hold the button to put it into pairing mode, then launch your zigbee discovery method. No app, no wifi, no bluetooth. Just pure local control.
monitors
Don't underestimate the power draw of multiple monitors.
But while you're at it: simply turn off different devices on the same power strip and check what actually draws how much.
The PC itself was drawing ~90 watts. The current draw right now - dual 1080p monitors, HA server, a 5-port switch, and a couple other small things - is about 12 watts. Desk power measurement is the yellow line, freezers are the blue line.
A fun one to put in perspective how hideously power hungry modern desktop PCs are is that I have an old (ish) laptop running as a local Plex server that also has a LLM loaded in there and a few other docker bits and pieces and it just sits happily humming at 10W idle (which is as much as my TV draws when it's turned off).
I've looked into building a small form factor PC to replace it at some point but all the spare parts I have lying around would draw as much idle as when that tiny thing is going full tilt and I just can't justify it for something that just stays on waiting for me to feel like rewatching The Matrix or whatever.
If you want to expand from just monitoring a couple sockets to monitoring the whole house; I'd recommend Iotawatt. I've been using one of these to monitor every circuit in my house for a few years now.
You can use the built in webpages shown below to view it's internal graphs, or setup an exporter to feed the data into external DBs like influxDB+Graphana or Emoncms.
Very cool! However, my house is a rental, so any monitoring equipment has to be somewhat non-invasive.
Edit: it helps if I actually look at the product before spouting nonsense... Looks promising.
How is it possible that it draws 100W at idle? What is it even doing?
The PC was drawing ~90W. All solid state, no spinning rust. Lots of fans though, since it's air-cooled. Not entirely sure what was causing the draw, but it's definitely something I want to investigate at some point.
Hard drives, especially spinning discs, and RAM are probably the biggest factor at idle. I dropped my servers' idle draw from 220w to 180w by dropping it's RAM and replacing some older drives.
People underestimate how more RAM can be more power usage.
I had a similar revelation. Home assistant has a WOL component, so you can set that up for easy starts. I've had mixed success with mechanisms to get HA to sleep the computer, though.
Ideally I want the machine to be sleeping I'd I'm not using it.
It will help some, and will also help temps, but AMD hardware does well with undervolting, especially the 5800X3D. I undervolt mine, and read the consensus that - 30 across all cores should be achievable for anyone, unless they're really, really unlucky. My 6800 XT I also only run @ 92% Voltage, and it runs cooler and faster now, too.
Definitely gonna check that out.
The CPU was done in BIOS on an ASUS x570. For me it was under AI Tweaker > Precision Boost Override > Curve Optimizer.
The GPU was done in the driver software on Windows. Or LACT if on Linux.
I bought two “Eightree” brand Zigbee-compatible plugs to see how they fare.
Did you need a Zigbee hub to get them working? I was gifted an Eighttree Zigbee plug with energy monitoring, but it seems to require using a hardware hub :(
Yeah, anything Zigbee needs a hub of some sort that interfaces with the server. Zigbee is a mesh-like network of its own - it doesn't use wifi or Bluetooth or anything.
I bought Nabu Casa's Connect ZBT-1 dongle; it's like $35 and plugs directly into the HA server. Super simple to configure as well, since HAOS detects it automatically. Plus, the smart plugs act as routers, so as long as there is a path of router-enabled devices that can see each other all the way to the dongle on the server, you shouldn't need anything else.
What res is that monitor ? My 2k monitor is pretty hungry compared to my old 1080. Even just looking at the uk energy efficiency ratings for 4k tells shocks me !
Right now I just run dual 1080p. I plan on upgrading to a 120Hz+ 1440p ultrawide at some point, but priorities... My entire desk setup is currently consuming 12 watts with the PC shut off. That's ~90W just from the PC.
I got a UPS cause the breaker to my room likes to trip if I am gaming and someone in the house decides to microwave something for 10 minutes. My desktop, three monitors (2x1080p 60hz + a 1440p 144hz) and my 3d printer all running at full tilt will suck my 1500w UPS dry in about 2 minutes lol.
If I'm not gaming and say just watching YouTube while not 3d printing anything that same UPS can run for almost 15 minutes.
breaker to my room likes to trip if I am gaming and someone in the house decides to microwave something
... Why the hell is your pc on the same breaker as the kitchen??
The kitchen plugs should have their own dedicated breaker in most modern electrical codes (at least in North America). The voltage drop your pc experiences everytime a high-load item like a microwave or kettle is turned on, on the same circuit, is really rough on your PSU.
At least you have a UPS which presumably performs some power conditioning, but still. Not great.
You used the magic word, "modern."
Lots of houses in this world are not modern, and some of them are old enough that they were retrofitted to have electricity, as mine was, rather than even being built with it to begin with. And done so in a haphazard manner when electrical codes were either much more lax than now or didn't exist. And further when the expected power draw for a household was considerably lower, because basically all of it in the 1920's or whatever was only used for lighting and we didn't have all of our current appliances, TV's, computers, 3D printers, or even indoor space heaters.
So moaning about what ought to be rather than what is really doesn't accomplish anything, especially in OP's case.
My small house has basically the entire ground floor wired to only two 15 amp circuits.
That's the best part. It's not in the kitchen. My room is on the complete opposite side of the house. Literally the furthest room from the kitchen.
Whatever drunk moron wired the house back in the 70s did so in such a confusing manner that electricians give us the "fuck no I'm not fixing that" price when we ask them what it would cost to sort out our completely nonsensical wiring. I think the last guy we talked to quoted us 30k and he pretty much flat out told us nobody will ever want to unfuck our house.