Why do some laws exist if everyone is expected to just break them?
Why do some laws exist if everyone is expected to just break them?
Example: Traffic Speed. Everyone always exceed the speed limit on highways. Why do we still have the limit? Like, either enforce it, or remove it. This stuff doesn't make sense at all.
Everyone always exceed the speed limit on highways.
Is this some kind of American thing?
Canada too. Sometimes it seems like the speed “limit” is actually the minimum most people are expected to go (if possible) on Ontario’s highways, especially the busiest ones. Enforcement is almost entirely done manually and barely exists, if it’s being done at all.
A lot of roads and highways are very over-engineered here with wide & forgiving lanes, with broad shoulders at the side. The actual speeds that can be accommodated in the design are far greater than the posted limit.
no idea where you're from, but it's true in many European countries too
Not sure if it's an "American" thing...
This is the Interstate-95 on the PA-NJ Turnpike section, a two-hour long drive by car (at 60 Miles Per Hour speed, that is)
People exceed the speed limit on highways, but usually not by a lot. If they exceed it by a lot, it is usually enforced, e.g. by speed cameras; but of course some people still sometimes get away with it, no enforcement of any law is perfect.
expected ... traffic speed
You're not supposed to be speeding you know?
Bwahahaha!
Where I live, if you're driving the speed limit on the highway, you'd best be in the slow lane...and you'd still have people passing you.
Tell that to like 99% of drivers on the Interstate-95 around the PA-NJ Turnpike section (USA btw).
It's so the police always have something they can stop you for.
When minor things are against the rules which are selectively enforced, it means the authorities get to pick and choose who to punish based on whatever criteria they feel like, which gives them power.
What is a speed limit on highways?
Confused greetings from Germany.
Speed limits are somewhat enforced in Germany. Just because you can floor it at times does not mean you can go 100 in a 50.
They are enforced, of course, but there are large sections of highway with no speed limit.
I know it is old, but... : 😁
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/animal-caught-speeding-on-a-german-highway/
Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger
- ADAC 1974
You're not expected to break them. For your example, you're not supposed to go over the speed limit. And it is, in fact, extremely easy to do so. Most people are fine with it. And, no, it's not impossible to do so. There is nothing forcing you to go faster for little to no gain and increased risk for you and other.
You expecting to go over tells something about you.
Practically no one actually drives at or below the speed limit in the US, especially on freeways. Whether or not you personally like this doesn't matter -- it's just how it is.
You're welcome to try it, but speeding is so pervasive in our culture that this will single you out and Ruggedly Individualistic Americans will get frothingly butthurt at you over it. Prepare to get tailgated, cut off, bullied out of your lane, stuff thrown at your car, etc.
I haven't driven over the speed limit in a decade in the US and have anecdotally never experienced the behavior you're describing.
I remember a young college aged guy got shot in the head for beeping his horn at someone. Happened a few years sgo.
You expecting to go over tells something about you.
I don't drive, but every time I’m in my parent’s car, they drive the speed limit, then I see cars flying by on the highway, and I’m like wtf.
I double check the spedometer, it points at just below 60, the sign says speed limit is 60. How is everyone going so fast. They must be speeding.
Not just one or 2 cars. Like almost every car.
Edit: This is in the USA, the Interstate-95 / PA-NJ Turnpike btw.
Because you don’t see the cars going the same speed as you. If everyone on the interstate was going 60 you would only ever see the 10 cars near you. But 10 people going 70 could pass 100 cars. Each of those drivers would see 10 cars going 60 and 10 cars going 70. Despite the fact that less than 10% of the cars were speeding.
For what it's worth, the I-95 corridor from about Richmond to Boston, particularly the DC-Balitmore-Philly-NYC part, is probably one of the worst stretches of highway in the country for generalized insanity and phenomenally poor driving skills on display from everyone involved. It is easily my most hated patch of asphalt in the universe.
A small but measurable improvement would be made to the world instantly if every person in DC and Baltimore had their licenses revoked. Although if experience is any judge, that still wouldn't prevent any of them from still all being on 95, three inches from the car in front and raging over "only" being able to do 80 in a 55.
I don't think everyone always breaks the speed limit, but probably they do at some point during every journey. They knew this went they introduced the 20mph speed limit but they introduced it anyway because they thought it would reduce the average speed by a few mph.
This sounds like a distinctly cultural problem where the word 'limit' clearly doesn't mean very much to the population in question.
It's a limit, not a target, and certainly not a floor as some USAsians seem to treat it.
Here in Australia you can be fined for exceeding the limit by less than 10km/h. Yes, even if you are 1km/h over, and whilst this would probably get thrown out in court you'd still have to take time off to attend court.
In the US it's technically a target, since you can be ticketed for going too fast or too slow.
Here we have a blanket 3km/h tolerance so they measure you, take 3km/h off and then use that to see which bracket of speeding you fall into (10, 20, etc).
It's a limit, not a target, and certainly not a floor
It depends what it is. In some nations limits are reasonable and therefore obeyed while in others they are way too low and therefore commonly ignored.
Too strict laws like this lead to people disregarding it. Even worse, it may even lead to other sections of the same subject law being disregarded, because if it is commonly acknowledged that one section of specific law is ridiculous, why not the others.
It honestly frustrates me so much with the speed limit thing. On a societal level, speed (and differences in speed) tend to be one of the biggest factors in car crashes, so ignoring speeding is just accepting more dangerous roads.
On a peronal level, i try to do the limit or maybe 5-10 over (20 over is the norm in my area, even in school zones). The really frustrating part is as soon as i act like everyone else a try to do 20 over i get a ticket and my insurance goes up. This is frustrating becauae it just feels as if I'm being punished for doing what most people consider to be "safe" and normal. If it was drastically obvious that 20 over is faster than the flow of the traffic, it would feel a lot less frustrating if i get a ticket.
It can actually feel dangerous doing the limit on roads notoriois for 20-30 over. People agressively pass, tailgate and cut you off. Its fucked up but you get more dirty looks for doing the limit than you do for doing 40 over the limit. I think part of this is the north american attitude of cars being an extension of yourself. Someone doing 40 over is both couragous enough to go that fast, and also wealthy enough to own something faster and wealthy enough to afford the ticket, or at least that seems like the trend.
Because it can be enforced selectively, and if everyone is guilty of something, anyone in particular can be harassed under the cover of a legal justification.
Yep. And in some places, one can see the enforcement is against minoritites and other scape goats at a disproportionate level. This also has the "bonus" of being able to make one group look like they break the law much more often and are dangerous
Yep. In Switzerland not having your ID on you is an arrest-able offence. Of course, the police never check the ID of anyone white or who blends in.
But if you look brown / disabled, then they will check you…
On the highways here, the original speed limit of 55 was to save our nation's resources, not just "55 to stay alive" but also it was an efficient speed to maintain and still pretty fast.
Inside the city it works much better to make drivers feel unsafe going fast. Narrower lanes, speed bumps, roundabouts, etc.
In answer to your actual question - some laws are just old and haven't been unwound yet and others are used as pretext for profiling, police (or, more properly whoever is running them) like to be able to stop people for no reason but that can be seen as illegitimate, so they keep laws that everyone breaks, jaywalking, etc to have an excuse.
I don't think there is any one law everybody breaks really but also no person who has lived perfectly law abiding life.
Reminds me of Three Felonies a Day
You seem to be assuming that people would keep driving as they currently do if we removed speed limits entirely. I'd be willing to bet that this is not the case. Most drivers have a number in mind on how much they're willing to exceed the speed limit. For me that is 5 - 10kph, so if the limit is 60kph, then you're not going to catch me going 80. Without speed limits I probably would.
So why do we have such laws? Because they work. Not perfectly but to some extent.
They exist just in case they need to crack down on you.
I always think of dog leash laws this way. In many places they aren’t enforced and the majority of dog owners let their dogs off leash. However, if the owner loses control of their dog and it gets into trouble, like biting someone or another dog, then the law can always say, you’re liable because your dog was supposed to be on leash.
I think the same goes for speeding and other laws. It basically puts liability on the lawbreaker if they take a certain risk. If nothing bad happens, fine. But, if something does, then it’s your fault.
Aside from selective enforcement, some laws (like traffic laws) are there for your protection AND to establish liability if something goes wrong.
If the government sets the limit at 30 and everyone goes 50, when an incident occurs, nobody can sue the city for bad roads because everyone was going faster than the intended speed.
Also establishes expectations. Every on the highway knows what the expected speed is. Going 30 in a 65 is way more dangerous than doing 75 when conditions allow.
Traffic speed? If you know where all the speed cameras are, you could dodge them and hope there are no other police checking you.
That's the whole fucking point. Speed traps are only there to decrease the number of people killed, and we still have idiots complaining about it.
Oh, about that: China also randomly flies drones that patrols the highways. Of couse, that's getting into the Authoritarian territory, and people in Democracies don't like it, but it is an option.
IMHO it's not authoritarian. Your speed in public space should be public. I struggle every day with fucking idiots in BMW or VW who almost hit my car because they can't drive properly. I wouldn't mind seeing them in jail if it meant some kind of control on my own speed.
I'm too German to understand what's here.
How do you get your licence in Germany?
Driver's license? Why?
just magically "enforce" it with no unintended consequences, please
In general speed limits are enforced IMO, just within a certain level. IE yes everyone exceeds the speed limit... but typically by set amounts. IE I know myself I generally go 9 over the speed limit. I expect to get a ticket if I go 11-20 over the speed limit.
That being said, yeah the social construct is probably intentionally encouraged by cops, so that say when they are pulling over random minorities for an excuse to search the car, they have an automatic excuse for why they pulled them over.
How do you expect constant enforcement? I'll go over the speed limit on the motorway when it's quiet and the lane is empty. Police generally don't care if you're doing 75 or 80 in a 70, as long as you're not driving like an ass. The most important thing is keeping pace with traffic.
How do you expect constant enforcement?
China did it.
They put cameras all over the highways, just mail them the fines and use the video recording as evidence.
I mean, you don't even need China's authoritarianism to acheive this, traffic cameras already exist in many democratic countries, just add more along the highway.
Everyone always exceed the speed limit on highways
You're projecting yourself
Nah, I don't even have a license to drive.
Every time I'm in my parent's car, they drive the speed limit, then I see cars flying by. I'm like wtf.
I double check the spedometer, it points at just below 60, the sign says 60. How is everyone going so fast. They must be speeding.
Edit: And it's not just one or two cars, its almost every car on the highway.
This is in the USA, the Interstate-95 / PA-NJ Turnpike btw.
Lol,
everyone
Proceeds to disprove.
Apparently it's not everyone that speeds.
Counter question: do you think everyone is sensible?
Do you think traffic speeds aren't enforced? Just because they can't do it effectively because they don't have the resources or man power doesn't mean they don't try.
I live in the south of France. I see cops cars using speed radars once a year. Once a fucking year. They do NOT enforce anything. If they did, half the population would be unemployed.
Ummm... nah
Cop car just goes speeding along with everyone else on the highway. Speeding is de facto legal.
It's only de facto legal until something goes wrong. If a crash occurred and someone was speeding that'd be considered a contributing factor to the crash.
Even if speeding itself wasn't illegal, there would need to be a definition of what reckless driving is, and speed in comparison to the road is a good measure of that, because it's directly proportional to the lack of control of the vehicle.
its more of a suggestion of what speed you should go, and as long as everyone is going the same, its no problem
for example:
speed limit is 55, but it's open road, everyone goes 65
or on the highway, left lane is always going 90+, even though the speed limit is 70
as long as everyone is doing the same and behaving themselves, no one has a problem with anyone
that's my opinion on the matter at least
Anecdotally, I’ve almost never get pulled over in traffic, but the one time I was pulled over, I was doing 76 in a 65 at 5 AM with no other cars on the road and otherwise driving completely fine.
I guess he was bored. Or an asshole. Or both.
Edit: Fixed my paradox
I was doing 76 in a 65
And you're proud of it. YTA as they say.
Both times I've ever been pulled over for speeding the road was empty except me and i was going the average speed people drive on them. 3 people doing 20 over, a cop can shrug and say i don't wanna pick one to ticket. A single car not only sticks out as speeding more easily, but there also isn't much of an excuse for the cop not to pull them over.
Counter intuitively, its easier to get away with speeding when the roads are busy because you blend in. The biggest things you want to avoid when speeding and busy is agressive behaviors and frequent passing. Make it seem more casual and you will blend in with the flow of traffic.
Tools in the toolbox. You'll often hear about police saying they need more tools in the toolbox. What it means is they want to be able to enforce laws against somebody they don't like selectively.
If you enforce the speed limit religiously, especially around State capitals, the speed limits would rapidly change.
https://archive.org/details/threefeloniesday0000silv
If this topic interests you, I recommend reading three felonies a day, by Harvey silverglate
Take jaywalking for example. Most people aren't going to be bothered by some woman crossing the street when no cars are around.
Is it worth a cops time who's within eyeshot to do anything about it? Waste of resources, she's not endangering anyone.
Same situation but cars are all over, some swerving to avoid or slam on their breaks because she blindly runs out. She gets hit or cars pile into each other.
Cops in eyeshot. Well the drivers certainly are not the ultimate cause of this accident.
That's my guess anyways.
Well, tell that to my local traffic authorities. My wife basically has a subscription with them, we get home a monthly invoice for 30€ because she was driving 55-60 km/h in a 50 zone... Complete with a picture of her face and the car's license plate :)
Maybe she should stop speeding?
Or learn where the cameras are?
If it only was that easy. I don't know if 5km/h over the limit is "speeding", she just doesn't pay attention, and we've been having this discussion for years... I am trying to convince/teach her how to use the speed limiter, but she always forgets to enable that. And the cameras are not static around here. There are a couple static ones, but the vast majority are mobile. They look like small black boxes on wheels, like a power distribution point. Until you see the flash light :)
I got caught once by a speed camera doing 65 in a 50 zone. The camera was in an unmarked van parked on the motorway lay-by (conveniently just after some temporary road works). A few days later the postman delivers a fine in the mail, so I ignored it as it wasn't sent by recorded delivery (so no proof of receipt). Now, by law in the UK, the police have 21 days to inform you of the offence and three weeks later I get another letter from the cops informing me that I have an unpaid fine. So I write to them and tell them that I never received it and that I have no recollection of being on that road. They then send me photographic evidence of my car being caught at 65 mph in a 50 zone and that I am obliged, by law, to declare who was driving. I write back and inform them that it was so long ago I have no memory of who might have been the designated driver, let alone even being on that road, and that because more than 21 days have passed they have failed to inform me of the offence. They write back with some nonsense about having proof that the letter was sent, but I argue that this isn't proof of receipt and that I'd be guessing if I declared who I think might have been driving that day. Result being that I never heard from them again.
"I am innocent" says every moron driving dangerously.
On top of what others said there's also just virtue signaling, like banning pornography or gambling.
It saves lives, literally, like seat belts. I don't know what to say if you can't understand that.
The question is why do laws that aren't enforced exist. Gambling and porn bans are rarely enforced but exist mostly for virtue signaling. I wasn't talking about speed limits.
All laws exist because someone is expected to break them. They're created when someone does something unexpected. They're (sometimes) removed when nobody is expected to break them anymore.
Like how racism doesn't exist anymore, so we can get rid of DEI!
If only that were the claim.