Zelenskyy warns Europe: You guys are doomed without us
Zelenskyy warns Europe: You guys are doomed without us
Summary
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy warned Europe that it cannot withstand Russia without Ukraine’s military, calling Ukraine’s victory vital to stopping Kremlin expansion.
Speaking to Polish media, Zelenskyy stressed that Russia’s larger, more brutal army would target other European nations if Ukraine falls.
He criticized Western allies for underestimating Russian President Vladimir Putin’s ambitions, urging them to strengthen Ukraine’s defenses.
He's right.
Ukraine grows a LOT of grain. It's going to be a big problem when they stop providing Europe and the world.
On a more cynical note: Ukraine grows a lot of Russian obituaries, which the EU doesn't have to, should they try to invade the Baltics once they are successful in Ukraine.
I'm not certain why your point was downvoted (maybe the wording confused people)... but folks may grumble about paying extra taxes to financially support the Ukrainian army but that does not even compare to the rage governments would face if they started sending volunteer or drafted troops to fight the frontline.
It's incredibly cynical of course - but if Ukraine is willing to fight and die for European freedom for the low low cost of just some money its insane to reject their offer.
Russia will not stop at Ukraine. They may stop at the Polish border, but the Baltic states are absolutely within Putin's gaze.
Not a problem for Europe.
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023-11/efscm-assessment-autumn-2023_en.pdf
Reads differently
Looking ahead, most of the respondents expect current risks to persist, in particular the frequency of extreme weather events, and the unpredictability of how the Russian invasion of Ukraine will evolve. Concerning the latter, risks are not only linked to the availability of imports, but also to ongoing price volatility both for inputs and commodities and to potential logistical restrictions in place. Several respondents anticipate no decline in food inflation in the coming months, as input and production costs are expected to stay up, thus keeping consumer prices high due to delayed price transmission between different stages of the food chain
So there are concerns about the invasion and it's driving food inflation.
They'll just buy it from Russia, just like their oil.
Zelensky is correct, Putin is identical to, take your pick, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Franco and Tojo.
Stalin is one of three world leaders that SAVED Europe from Hitler. I also find it hard to believe the much of Europe was scared of Tojo who may have instead also been scared of Stalin. --That's was a bad analogy. Do better.
Stalin did not save Europe. He took what he wanted to create the regressive Warsaw Pact. The Bolshevik bastard was on the same level as the fuck nut Hitler.
Are we painting Stalin as a good guy here? He only fought Germany because they tried to invade. Before that he repeatedly made attempts to court Nazi Germany. He signed a nonaggression pact, made an agreement to secretly divide Eastern Europe together, and continued trading. Stalin didn't really give a shit about the fascism part, he only cared once his own territory and sphere of influence were threatened. Same as all the other major allies, btw. Everyone tried appeasement first, nobody really cared about the fascism.
"Saving Europe from Hitler" paints it as a selfless act of heroism when really everyone was mostly concerned with maintaining their own power.
Lol
We built NATO for this while goddamn reason, Kyiv just wasn’t available as a signatory at that time. It is now. Use the opportunity, before the USA is able to thwart it due to our current Foothold situation
ukraine has the second largest military in europe. if trump pulls the us out of nato, it may suddenly become an issue.
Well, Trump is obviously not going to help anyone but himself. But that doesn't mean Europe is doomed. Plenty of nuclear weapons in Europe. If anything, everyone's doomed.
Nukes: Nobody is as doomed as all of us.
People sure do like to act like France isn't one of the most nuclear armed nations
Not really. Europe's army is "small" because we have not been drafted.
Populations:
- Europe: 450 million
- Russia: 150 million
- Ukraine: 35 million
Defending countries will draft most of their people, while the attackers draft far less. Countries that are not at war will simply not draft and will have a natural army size. (Which protects the country until people get drafted and trained)
There's no reason to compare apples and pears here.
Europe's population is ~744m.
EU's population is ~450m. Not Europe's.
However you'd also have to account for the population of all NATO countries, minus potentially the US, were it to come to a conflict against its members.
Yes I meant EU. Which I think was what Zelensky meant. Russia is part of Europe the continent anyways.
How many are in the age range for the draft? It's not just total population, you can only really count those that are in the age range for army service.
Only people taking the draft actually seriously would be nations that have been at war or occupied with russia. For westerners russia is "that funny accent vodka nation" instead of the existential, genocidal torture enthusiast nation waiting to end you.
No you're just not one the important whites so you get treated like the rest of the world, difference being you're close to Russia. Now if your have any melanin then your issue suddenly becomes America and the west as existential, genocidal torture enthusiast waiting to exploit every last resource you have and you let your nation collapse then have it funded by the IMF under their strict terms
I think we should help Ukraine, but Russia would get their clock cleaned by European NATO (even without US).
Regardless, I’d rather we not test that theory. It doesn’t matter which side wins, we all would lose.
As long as the nuke is dropped on my head, I don't care.
I could use a break from all this winning tho
Putin has said as much, it is why he constantly reminds everyone of his nuclear arsenal and apparent willingness to end the world over small matters.
and Europe would take catastrophic casualties in doing so.
America is an ocean away, and doesn't have to worry about war on their soil.Europe on the other hand, can you honestly say that society is ready for events like Bucha on their soil? a Russian brigade breaks through the line, gets bogged down,isnt able to advance any further, so decides to loot , rape and mass murder the population before retreating?
Bucha and Mariupol is why the entire NATO strategy changed. it used to be that the baltics would effectively be surrendered temporarily while the European backbone mobilized, France Germany Poland etc. But thats no longer an option because intelligence knows that the Russian Soldiery, for lack of a better term, act like savage ghouls. and will put innocent men women and children to the sword for no reason other than spite.
and failing that, they will bomb a city to dust like they did to Mariupol, Bakhmut, and so many others
One thing Russia has infintely more experience than Europe, its people are used to the realities of war, Martial law, no rights, Resource scarcity, No protesting. they just behave like lemmings now. Its sad, but its an advantage.
European populations would be calling for an armistice and selling out countries on the periphery as soon as it started because they dont want to go to war.
Maybe or maybe not.
Look at Israel. Why do you think the US sending them more weapons for their genocide every month? Because they don't have the material to fight a protracted war. That's largely how it is in Europe too, and it's a good thing, because they don't have the 'bomb first and then ask questions later' mentality that Americans do.
How many NATO soldiers have experience fighting a full-scale war on their territory against an enemy with similar technological and production capabilities?
How many NATO soldiers have experience fighting a full-scale war on their territory against an enemy with similar technological and production capabilities?
I'm not sure, but since this is the Russian-Ukraine conflict we're talking about, we don't have to worry about one showing up. Russia is barely a near peer to Ukraine, they wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell against more than one country at a time without their nukes, let alone NATO as a whole.
Nukes are literally the only thing that lets Russia pretend they're still a superpower and not a failed state. But as we can see in Ukraine, they can't even beat a former client state and has to resort to bringing our cold war era equipment, so double lol at "similar capabilities"
against an enemy with similar technological and production capabilities?
We're talking about Russia here.
you're right, we should take the fight to them. they should have to deal with cleaning up landmines etc after all their base are belong to us
I understand what he's saying, and there is a good point to it, and i am not trying to brag, but...
Europe has the real weapons, Russia has mostly 1960 weapons left. Europe has jets that will very quickly give Europe air superiority. It has a good 4 years to prepare, Russia has broken half its teeth on Ukraine. The only advantage that the Russian army has now that it has a log of soldiers with heavy combat experience, but Europe has the advantage that it has been seeing for 4 years how Russians do their job and so far that job had been abysmal. They can barely hold their own against Ukraine troops, how are they supposed to hold their own against much more military personnel with much better weapons?
Unless things change, and ignoring nukes, once you have air superiority, that's it, the other party is pretty much done for. Europe would not have to play by the rules that the Ukraine is playing by right now, they can and will take the fight to Russian territory.
A Russian invasion into the rest of Europe would be disastrous for Europe but it would be terminal for Russia. It would end either with Putin dead and Russia under control of Europe, or it would end with nukes which would automatically drag the entire world into WWIII after whcih we can all enjoy the fun again of living in the middle ages for the following hundred years or so.
This also ignores that, with the current abhorrent state of the Russian army as it is, they still gotta defend their own territory and they have half an actual super power sitting right next door that would also love to take bits and pieces of it. In the state they currently are, how are they going to do that, and then also take enough to defend Europe? Putin may be a dictator, but he too had to deal with popularity, and hoe populair you think he'll be once he needs to do two or three new draft rounds to get enough people to fight his wars?
I don't see a European invasion happening, it'd be the same mistake as Hitler invading Russia back then
This is such deluded patriotism it should be coming from an american.
Russia wouldn't invade "Europe", they would invade, say, Moldova (which is their actual plan). Is Germany going to commit troops to defend Moldovian soil? They aren't for Ukraine. What about the UK? France? Will they send their vaunted jets and soldiers? There's material being given to Ukraine, and intelligence, and all kinds of backroom advice, and how much of it will stop once Trump takes us out of NATO? Can europe pick up the slack? Are you going to rally together and strike Russia to stop them building up, or will the russian backed neofascist parties that are on the rise in every country seize power before you have the chance?
You should be really, really worried, because the odds are that your country spends less than 2% of it's GDP on it's military. How long do you think that you're going to be able to hold out against Russia, alone, with that?
A good read: GILES, Keir, 2024. Who Will Defend Europe?. 24 October 2024. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9781911723486.
I just read "You guys are doomed with us" and thought man he's right
Zelenskyy can go fuck himself. He's a total idiot if he hasn't figured out he's a US puppet for a proxy war.
They’ve been operating as the tip of the spear and begging for more ammo since day 1, they know full well it’s a proxy not just between US/Russia but the EU and old agreed land divisions all across the continent. They’ve been held back due to MAD concerns and the new administration is fully fascist.
What do you suggest this “unknowing puppet” do instead, your better idea?
of course this is from a @lemmy.ml user
Calles 'empire in decay' hahaha
Lemming says what?
Sure, a puppet in a war on their own territory, that the other side invaded.
Ukraine wouldn't be at war if Russia stayed in their borders.
Zelenskyy wouldn't have need to be a "puppet" if there wasn't a war in Ukraine.
So even if what you said was true, it is all putins fault.
Harsh but true. The downvoters aren't interested in reading the reality of the situation, and it does suck to see entire countries being treated as expendable pawns, but that's just how the game of global politics is played.
There is a reason why the west is not authorizing Ukraine to strike more aggressively deep within Russia even when Ukraine put in the hard work and made the sacrifice to counter the invasion.
Ukraine wouldn't be a "pawn" if Russia never invaded and kept to the treaties they made with NATO.
The west doesn't have to authorize anything. Since Ukraine is a sovereign nation that can decide that themselves.
And they did, or do you think Moscow isn't "deep" enough? https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/10/europe/ukraine-drone-strikes-moscow-intl/index.html
All the European cowards in the comments writing Ukraine off, now that Trump is coming to power. Without even pretending to put up a fight, without US omni presence. Shame on you. Put would kick your asses, and he know it, you'd fold just like you did to the reich. Nothing changes.
Can you absolutely shut the fuck up. Europe can and should fill the gap if trump pussies out.
Exactly how many F16s has the US given? Oh that's right. Zero.
Europe has (in total) ponied up more in arms and cash than the US.
I would rather be taxed to death than see them overrun.
Jog on.
Are those "european cowards" in a room here with us?
Most of people here I know is just hoping that at least half of our military spending would go straight to Ukraine. The support must flow.
Can't we just buy the grain off of Russia if they win? Asking for a friend
Well, you could. But imagine after all the conflict, would Russia offer a good deal? Who'd pay for the cost increase? And what else could they ask in return, more raw material for nuclear weapons, so that in 15 years they can go another round with an even better odds?
I doubt, Russia has trouble producing simple items like butter for internal use, not to mention exports. Pretty sure that they will grow basically no grain if they win.
Maybe?? It will take awhile to fully capture and subjugate Ukrainian infrastructure. If the Citizens resist they will be slaughtered and replaced slowly. All of this will take time and the pillaged resources need to fill the war debt first.