Microsoft Edge gets "unfair advantage", browser makers claim
Microsoft Edge gets "unfair advantage", browser makers claim
Edge is stifling competition among browsers, rivals say
Some of the top browser makers around have issued a letter to the European Commission (EC) alleging that Microsoft gives the Edge browser an unfair advantage and should be subject to EU tech rules.
A letter seen by Reuters, sent by Vivaldi, Waterfox, and Wavebox, and supported by a group of web developers, also supports Opera’s move to take the EC to court over its decision to exclude Microsoft Edge from being subject to the Digital Markets Act (DMA).
As Edge comes pre-installed by default on Windows machines, users must navigate the Microsoft offering in order to download their browser of choice. The letter states that, “No platform independent browser can aspire to match Edge's unparalleled distribution advantage on Windows. Edge is, moreover, the most important gateway for consumers to download an independent browser on Windows PCs.”
It's like the mid 90s all over again. Let's see if anything happens this time.
I want that Web to die, die, die.
Gemini is a step in the right direction, but the new Web should be both non-extensible by design and transparently allow distributed storage, distributed untrusted computation, and separation of the concepts of a site and a machine that serves it. In other words, serverless, where websites and services and even web applications are identified cryptographically, and anybody can contribute their computing power (or storage) to a site\service\application, out of desire to help or for money. With smart contracts, ghost keys and other buzzwords I have no real idea about.
And fuck Microsoft.
I’m not defending Microsoft… but if we’re going to go after a tech company for leveraging their other assets to give themselves an unfair advantage can we also go after Google?
In the first releases of Edge, Microsoft tried to build a new web browser from scratch to compete with Google Chrome. By google kept changing YouTube’s code so that videos would playback janky on Edge. Microsoft eventually gave up trying to fix for YouTubes ongoing changes and now Edge is based on Chromium (the same open source web browser maintained by Google, that chrome os built on). Google leveraged YouTube to prevent completion from Edge.
And now Google is blocking ad blocking extensions so that users are forced to see more google ads in their browser.
Microsoft’s has leveraged their unfair advantage to get a little over 5% market share.
Google’s leveraged their unfair advantage to get 66% of the market.
Both companies need a hard smack down, but I want to see Google taken down too.
Please, please do act on google too. Didn't knew about YT thing, but god I loved Spartan Edge. It was soo...resource unintensive. It...simply did it job, was quick, low resource, looked good... :( I switched to it from chrome and then it became chrome.
Any source that YouTube is the reason that Edge switched to chromium?
I'm betting it's just cheaper and easier than making their own engine.
They’re was never any evidence of google’s wrongdoing, the accusation came from former MS edge developers:
https://www.developer-tech.com/news/edge-developer-google-youtube-chrome-browsers/
Officially Google denied it:
https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/19/18148736/google-youtube-microsoft-edge-intern-claims
You may be right, this could have been MS couldn’t make a better browser and pulled the plug, and the devs just blamed google.
The early versions of edge were absolutely terrible and didn't support modern standards. I fully believe that YouTube didn't work on Edge but I don't believe it was anything to do with Google and everything to do with Microsoft not being able to build a web browser.
I'm a web dev, fully disagree with you. I don't even think this comment is based in any reality, just MS hatred (which, to be fair, I currently hate them for other reasons, but it's a big company with many parts)
I warned my colleagues against doing all development and testing in Chrome, because they would inevitably code towards "Webkit features" unknowingly, and leave both Edge and Firefox in the dust. I set up Edge as my default because, in an effort to catch up in popularity, they were being very strict and communicative with standards. If I wrote a page to work in Edge, it would work in other browsers. Meanwhile, there were horrific features like linear gradients that needed a full 15 lines of CSS specifically because Webkit would implement it, realize their implementation had gaps, reimplement it, and end up with 14 used-in-release syntaxes that you needed to account for, instead of the Edge/Firefox "Build it right" philosophy.
I sincerely doubt the current YouTube situation is actually because YouTube is a complex site. 90% of the motivation for whatever feature they're putting in is to push Chrome and fuck over other browsers.
Please submit a second copy of that letter, but replace Windows with Android, PC with Mobile, Microsoft with Google, and Edge with Chrome.
As Edge comes pre-installed by default on Windows machines, users must navigate the Microsoft offering in order to download their browser of choice.
What's the actual alternative they want here? That users look up download URLs on other devices and download their browser of choice via command line using
cURLInvoke-WebRequest? That ISPs provide browser installers on USB sticks?Also, it's not like MS is cornering the market on browser share here. Even with this "unfair advantage" they've only scraped together a 5% slice of browser usage.
For a while when you installed Windows, the first time user setup gave you a choice of popular browsers and it handled the download and install.
Now Microsoft is actively trying to sabotage other browsers with popups and office apps bypassing the default browser setting.
I agree with you completely on their over-pushiness. They could do without that.
But the first time choice thing doesn't sound tenable long-term to me.
Welcome to SuperOS! What would you like to use as your web browser? E-mail reader? Calendar app? PDF viewer? Image viewer? File explorer? Porn viewer? Weather app? VPN?
I can think of distros/OSes that, depending on the use case, people really appreciate having something pre-installed for them. And yes, other times people would prefer their own. But imagine amateur users making a pick from that constant stream of questions, not to mention having weird incompatibilities if they make bad choices.
IMO edge coming pre-installed isn’t a big deal. But I’d like to be able to uninstall edge and not have Windows periodically try to trick me into setting edge as my default browser again.
Basically either offer users a dialog box asking which browser they'd like to use or offer the browsers in the Microsoft Store.
And stop telling me that "The Internet is better using Edge", Microsoft.
I'd settle for them being force to offer links to alternatives when you first install Windows.
AND being forced to stop the bullshit every few updates where they force you through choosing options. One of which is "update to recommended browser settings for security?"... Which just defaults the system to use edge.
AND being forced to stop the bullshit every few updates where they force you through choosing options
Just turn it off. Settings → Notifications → Windows Welcome Experience or some such.
Invoke-WebRequest
To comply with the court decision, Microsoft have added a super easy to use PowerShell command to install your favourite browser!
ps> Get-Browser-That-Isnt-Microsoft-Edge -Q -Browser Firefox -NumberOfNags 0 -RevertAfterUpdate False -When Now -Why BecauseTheCourtsToldUsWeNeededToRequire Microsoft to distribute competing browsers in the Microsoft store.
I can install Firefox, Chromium etc. from my distro's package manager. I don't open a web browser to install software. You still do that on Windows because Microsoft has a financial incentive to keep competitors out of their store, so their store sucks.
This is an already solved problem - EU did it in the past.
You can get Firefox and Opera on the Windows Store. Ostensibly, this is how every other OS works now, although on Linux it's usually less of a storefront with Candy Crush pushed up front, and more like a commandline entry to get apps by known name.
I think people are just used to the Windows colloquialism of not having a central store, thus getting every app on the web through an installer file - and then, through meaningful distrust and horrific memories of Windows 8, choosing not to use that store when it was added.
Not to forget than when using bing, if you look for words like Firefox or Chrome, you get a large banner saying to use Edge instead. Super shady stuff
Not to mention that Microsoft forces you to use a Microsoft account when you create your account on your home computer which is then automatically logged in to edge and *bing so that they can track and quantize more of every single thing you do on the internet to monetize you
This doesn't make that behavior any less scummy, but have you tried using any Google website on a browser that isn't chrome?
Is this blocked by ublock origin coz I've never gotten that at all on Firefox.
It's possible, I use Firefox and uBO as well on my main PC, but I remember seeing it when installing Firefox on my windows partition
MS is literally back to square one its about damn time.
They're even worse now and aggressively pressure you to use edge if it's not the default.
why go after microsoft.
Go after fucking google.
Chromium is the plague, not Edge.
Isn't Edge also chromium?
Yes, and its a nasty story thats all unofficial cause no one is ever gonna go on the record, at least not for another 10-20 years when it comes out in someones book..
but the short of it is, Edge had its own browser engine, but google kept making changes to youtube and other google sites that broke Edges performance and made it run like dogshit, while leaving chromium based browsers alone.
after many instances of sabotage > microsoft workaround > google sabotage> microsoft workaround. Microsoft finally gave up and remade Edge as a chromium based browser.
It's possible to go after both. M$ has some fucked up practices that trick the user into using edge that shouldn't be okay
I went to the widgets pane on my w11 laptop once, clicked an article and to my horror, all of my data had been synced from chrome to edge, including passwords, history, open tabs, extensions, pretty much everything.
I even went as far as to report it to the ACCC (the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) since I've never seen it from other browsers, and that I found it pervy the fact they did it without consent, although I doubt the ACCC would be enough to change this shitty practice, and others like it.
They're not even trying to trick the user anymore, they're forcing them.
It's possible to. Are they? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they're not. They're going after Microsoft and not Google.
Not that it makes any difference since Edge is just reskinned Chrome now anyway. If it was still it's own thing I'd be rooting for Microsoft, at least up until they start to become bigger, then I'd turn on them.
Makes you wonder if these companies bringing the complaint are getting kickbacks from Google. Free search rank boosting for their respective companies comes to mind.
You could say the same about Android and iOS. They are preloaded with a web browser not many people change. In fact I've noticed that many users (mostly older) using Android don't even know what browser they are using, since they just type shit into Google widget on their home screen.
IIRC Samsung devices default to a Samsung web browser labelled "Internet". You wouldn't want to disable the "Internet", right?
iOS seems even more egregious, where it's internally using Safari no matter what browser you install, giving the illusion of choice.
The google widget search bar is the thing I hate the most on default Android ui, alongside stupid bixby. Like the windows search bar, it doesn't look good, always stays there and isn't actually useful since you can still search with sometimes one click sometimes two. And the results are horribles with filled MSN-like news
Fuck, this. My gf doesn't even know what a "web page" is, she just knows this Google widget.
And some linux distros bcs somtimes it's preloaded with firefox and chromium and also macos with safari
Ooo what about safari on mac? Isn't it the same thing but just not as hated?
An out of the box OS should include a browser. Microsoft takes a ham-fisted approach, however, Apple makes it entirely possible to uninstall Safari. You do have to jump through the hoop of disabling System Integrity Protection to remove it, but it's simple as trashing the app and deleting the data. I speak from experience. Very easy to do.
Seriously, showing a pop up confirmation if the user tries to uninstall the last browser on the device is all that is needed.
The issue is with how aggressive Microsoft is about it.
Trying to download chrome? "Hey, are you sure you don't want to try Edge?".
Changing default browser? "Hey, are you sure you don't want to try Edge?".
Windows update... "We've done you a solid, because we know you want to use Edge".
I'm sure at one point, it was a warning in the security center that you aren't using Edge.
Also Teams (in sure there are others) will open links in Edge, despite what default browser you have set.Yes, but they've got the advantage of having done it for longer, and not stirred the pot.
I honestly don't think it would have been an issue for Microsoft if they just decided to sit on Internet Explorer instead of trying to push everyone into using Edge.
I agree with going after the Edge Lords and making things more fair...but I'm guessing Chrome is the most used we browser by a long shot even on windows so the “No platform independent browser can aspire to match Edge's unparalleled distribution advantage on Windows." part feels like users are comfortable stepping over Edge's corpse to download chrome anyway.
It's true, although chrome has gotten a significant boost from Google promoting it in search and every Google app (which I don't know if they still do).
So chrome beats edge on users, but it's also likely largely because of the unfair advantage it receives/received from that promotion. Those options are not really available to other browser developers (unless Amazon or meta also decided they want a browser for some reason).
Chrome got popular at introduction because it was much faster at loading and displaying websites. Sure, there was a marketing push by Google, but it succeeded on the products merits and not some unfair business advantage. It still is a great browser.
We do need antitrust protections but not always because consumers are getting a bad product. It's more about the balance of power. Maybe their products are good now, or their business practices are fair now to other market actors, but you never know when that will change and then it's too late. It's like you need safeguards against autocracy also when they're genuinely doing good job of running the country, because it's never worth it in the long run when they inevitably start doing nasty shit
Don't give them any ideas
If users had a pop-up which allowed them to select more than just Edge or Chrome, other browsers may see an increase in users. Chrome is as much a default as Edge is in that way.
A letter seen by Reuters, sent by Vivaldi, Waterfox, and Wavebox, and supported by a group of web developers, also supports Opera’s move to take the EC to court over its decision to exclude Microsoft Edge from being subject to the Digital Markets Act (DMA).
OK...
Shouldn't they be fighting Chrome, more than anything? Surely there's a legal avenue for that, though I guess there's a risk of getting deprioritized by Google and basically disappearing.
Yeah they can't fight Chrome, they are Chrome.
They're suing because Microsoft got an exclusion from the Digital Markets Act. Google did not.
Suing? It's just a letter
...and we all know what that advantage can do! (Covertly looks in IE's direction)
I completely understand where this is coming from, but I'm just a little confused about what the solution would be. For the average consumer and certainly the target users for Windows, shipping with a browser is the expected norm, and none are expected to open a terminal, much less run tools like winget. I guess you could have a setup dialog of major browsers to choose from?
I can think of some options
Level 1: Allow uninstall of edge. They can have the engine still for store/background processes, but no user icon. You can use edge to install other browsers then remove it.
Level 2: same as level one, but it comes "uninstalled". OOBE asks you to choose a browser.
Level 3: They rip out the deep integration they knew damn well they shouldn't have done because their asses were handed to them in the IE days.
Click 'browse web' Microsoft gives a list of popular and mixed browsers that the user can select. Microsoft then installs selected browser. At least this is the only tangible way I can see.
Anyone else remember this badboy?
For the uninitiated, BrowserChoice.eu was a popup and associated website that Microsoft was forced to create by the EU courts becasue of their monopoly in 2010.
Also, an opinion: Edge was a great browser even before they switched to Chromium. I wish they'd kept at it so there was a better variety of rendering engines out there.
One solution could be during PC initial setup, a list of all browsers above a certain user count is given and the person chooses which to install and use as default with the ability to change at a later date.
Yup. Teams ignores default browser and opens URLs in Edge. I have to right click copy and open in Firefox. I refuse to be forced to use Edge
There's a setting Teams, under "Files and Links" where you can change it from Edge to Default Browser. Scummy that it works that way, but you can work around it at least (for now anyway).
As it's based on chromium, I'd call what it has a handicap and just keep on using Firefox.
The issue isn't how it's built or based on its that Microsoft can use its control of the os to make it extremely difficult to avoid it.
Good point. That would suck for windows users, and it's really user-hostile behavior by MS.
Windows is absolutely abusing their position as the dominant OS to push their other products. The number of "no don't do that" messages and pop ups when trying to install chrome on a windows computer is clearly anti-competitive, and the only reason microsoft has been getting away with it is because Edge/etc hasn't achieved enough market share.
running "winget install firefox" in an elevated powershell gets you a better browser without ever opening edge. but then you still cannot uninstall it and all the other shit about it still stays active.
Theres like 2 or 3 commonly supported browser engines and the people who run them are complaining about unfair monopoly by a browser whose main purpose is to find another browser?
One might even say it has an... Edge
so does Microsoft Windows
👍👍
I thought we've already been through this before?
I vaguely remember getting the option which browser to use during an install before.
Feels like they need to stop nitpicking about this stuff. I barely know anyone that even uses Edge, it's almost like it just functions as a downloader for Chrome or anything else.
At what point are they gonna stop? Until Windows comes without any browsers at all? And we'll have to store copies of installers on USBs And postmail Google if we want a copy of Chrome.exe because we accidentally deleted it?
That was a Windows 7 thing - it used to be hosted at https://browserchoice.eu but that's long gone now.
I could've sworn I've seen something like this in a W10 or W11 installation not even that long ago though.
It's not something I imagine EU would just forget about whenever a new OS dropped.
never used it here. microsloth has enough claws in me as is
neiiigh, its dead.
ftfy
Yeah I personally use Brave but that’s what I found.
Edit: wow. I get downvoted for the browser I use… ok I guess.
