Opinions [Extra Fabulous Comics]
Opinions [Extra Fabulous Comics]
this is the exact reason why exile, excommunication, shunning, disfellowshipping, and all the rest are so effective. and a big reason people go along with glaringly wrong bullshit
And the internet has given the folks with wrongness in their heart an out to find communities who will act as a bulwark against internal progress. No one around you likes you because you're an asshole? Go on 8chan and get validated
The funny thing is that those spaces are themselves very heavy on enforcing dogma through fear of social rejection. For example when the Christchurch massacre happened, I decided to go see what /pol/ was saying, and there were actually a few comments expressing mild disapproval, in a "I hate muslims too but cheering at people being brutally murdered as they try to get away is too far" kind of way. These people were of course shouted down and insulted and their sympathy painted as weakness. That validation is conditional.
The less leeway people are given by their community to explore and express their genuine thoughts and feelings, the more inaccurate and fucked up the popular consensus is free to get.
On the other hand, it can achieve the exact same thing for people who belong to an irl community that insists on being wrong, allowing them to find better information and a group to validate it. That's certainly the vision people had of the internet back in the 90s. Too bad it hasn't been anywhere near as ubiquitously a force of fact-checking as they envisioned back then, but I'd be willing to bet it's been a stronger positive force than negative.
Yes, or lemmy.
It's interesting that being completely shunned and outside of community though makes you either immune to the group think and therefore able to recognize and see the glaring oppositions of reality or lets you completely fall into madness with no recourse to pull yourself out of it.
Religious shunning / disfellowshipping is immoral and should be banned by law. It's disgusting. I don't understand how it still is such a big issue. Jehovah's Witnesses for example are breaking up families daily. It causes much suicide unfortunately. Evil practice. Done in "the name of god" - I should point out that it is unscriptural, so not actually a biblical teaching. Just a good way to control the flock...
You're right that it's wrong, but ostracism doesn't strike me as something that can be outlawed—not just because it's one of our fundamental primitive social behaviors, but because of logistics. I'm curious how you envision it working? That is, you could probably forbid a church from declaring excommunication in a formal fashion, but could you actually stop its members from shunning someone? It would raise a lot more questions, like what if one member of the church is revealed to have abused another? Does the church still have to welcome them back?
why do you think they're pushing so hard to force jesusism into public schools? so the kids who toe the jesus line can bully the kids who don't. they'll police themselves and inform on their neighbors. christian fanatics LOVE that particular thumbscrew to keep people compliant and obedient. and don't let anyone tell you that a single goddamn thing will be done to stop bullying--it already doesn't happen.
This is what held me back for a long time, and I have to say, the fear is well founded. It has definitely driven a wedge between me and my community. The breakthrough is realizing that's okay.
This describes Christianity (to an extent). When I turned atheist (because I couldn't believe in God/Jesus anymore, not because I didn't want to) there is this very Church-shaped hole in your proverbial soul that needs time to close. It's a very sobering, yet lonely, way to live life, but due to the internet you don't find yourself lonely for too long, but I imagine it used to be a pretty terrifying way to live life pre-internet.
I am lucky my Christian family still loves me, and I know they only proselytize to me (every now and then) because they care.
This is something that is extremely difficult to process. Most religions that have persisted assuage some of our most natural existential worries (e.g. mortality, right vs wrong, free will, isolation vs being watched over).
When someone stops believing, all of those questions float back to the surface, and "we really don't know" is such an unsatisfying answer.
Yeah I grew up before the internet was really big enough to find people in my situation so I just had to suffer in silence because I live in a very religious area.
It created a lot of resentment that I've had to struggle through because I was basically ostracized whenever my lack of faith was brought up. Some of the kindest sweetest people I'd ever met suddenly would act as if my existence was a disgrace.
My faith in Christianity was actually fading, and I started to research it. Doing so actually strengthened it and led me to being baptised lmao.
I don't agree with the downvotes here. I fall on the other side of the theistic question from you, but if you're being sincere in your comment then I think you deserve appreciation, not condemnation. The way I see it, I have no answers, so I can't judge anyone else's conclusions, I can only judge them for being unwilling to ask the question and weigh their beliefs against it. A genuine belief, a conviction, should be one that survives trial by fire and stands up to any reasonable scrutiny. If your belief can't do that, it's not an actual belief, it's a superstition. Taking you at your word here, if you genuinely weigh your belief against opposition rather than run from it and still come out with the conclusion of deistic belief, I'm not going to judge you. At least you're doing the work.
Sorry for the unnecessary soapbox here, seeing the majority downvotes just left a bad taste in my mouth on this one.
edit: improved wording slightly
I had to institute a no-politics rule with certain family members during the pan. It's saved relationships.
I have zero friends who are intolerant or hateful or shitty to others. If I found out someone I hadn't spoken to in a long time had become like the right wing nuts in my family I'd first try to talk to them about why that happened with hope of saving them, but if not: get out of my life.
As some guy who grew up in a Mormon community…this shit sucks and I don’t hear from anyone anymore after making it clear where I stood. (Really fucking weird how many of my uniformed family that trained to fight USSR is now pro Moscow but ok)
But, that’s kind of the point and how they get ya, a lot of these wannabe revolutionaries are just looking for a friend group. We need more board game cafes and places to make proper friends
Honestly the board game cafes and such don't work. People don't want to make new friends.
If I found out someone I hadn't spoken to in a long time had become like the right wing nuts in my family I'd first try to talk to them about why that happened with hope of saving them, but if not: get out of my life.
I had to institute a no-politics rule with certain family members
Typical moderate: full of principles until they require sacrifice.
I don't presume to know your situation or the people you've dealt with so I'll be charitable and imagine you cut your losses and quit similar situations in good faith, but you and I are both ignorant about the lives of others. It seems to me like the behavior you label an abandonment of principle leaves the door open to future redemption of a loved one. That's worth fighting for. On that ground, I think you should stop sharing this opinion even if it's true for you. If they don't want to damn their own mother to a propoganda echo chamber full of malice then I'm rooting for them.
Here's the thing: you're right to feel that way depending on your surroundings. I work in construction in Texas (and kinda look the part) and it is astonishing how many people are willing to buy into bullshit, and expect you to do the same, because that's what everyone else does. Finding another family that isn't gargling right wing propaganda, "god-fearing", or just one brand of asshole is so difficult around here.
Since our children were born we have been increasingly intolerant of all that nonsense. This has unfortunately led to our support system dwindling away because we aren't willing to compromise on the morale standards we want our kids exposed to.
Me - be white and wear my veteran's hat for no reason other than it's one of the few out there that's actually comfortable to wear.
Random conservatives - racism mode go!
I usually make one attempt to highlight their stuff, see if they're self aware at all, and then excuse myself from the conversation. Otherwise they always, and I mean every time, accuse me of stolen valor when they figure out I'm not a conservative.
This was my impression visiting Texas a few months ago (went for the eclipse and visited Houston, Austin, and Dallas).
Especially in Houston, it seemed that the propaganda was everywhere. Never mind being a city that could very much use some light-rail and instead is just a massive web of super wide highways (that still get congested). Seeing a Billboard announcing the Epoch Times as "the number 1 most trusted news", a half a mile before a Joel Osteen megachurch, really made me realize how much these ideas spreading so much are a product of their environment.
Man, it makes me sad that there are people who feel this way. My friends and family all support research and facts and are willing to accept any that challenges their preconceptions. To anyone stuck with friends and family that doesn't support them or is willing to accept reality, my heart goes out to you.
I think the hard part is, almost no one realizes that they felt that way until they are finally on the outside.
I remember a really interesting article I read a few years ago that indicated the best way to change someone’s viewpoint was to welcome them into your community or group without requiring a change of mind first.
Turns out our social and emotional needs will trump our rational or logical side almost every time.
So you’re 100% right. What people need is a caring group of family and friends who encourage each other to question themselves in an effort to learn and grow.
My friends and family all support research and facts and are willing to accept any that challenges their preconceptions.
So you might say that this is a trait that is considered essential for being a good member of your social group?
I fear this is the wrong take on this issue. The rule communities should follow should not be "make sure to get the facts right so that you don't excommunicate those who get the facts right". It should be "don't excommunicate people who get the facts wrong, because you never know if you got them right yourself and if you punish dissidents too hard you'll never be able to shift toward the correct world view".
I didn't say we should excommunicate anyone who doesn't get facts right, I simply said it was sad that people thought like this at all. I think we should all learn to change our preconceptions when presented with evidence against them and that we should help others to do the same.
Can I join your family then.. 🙃
Sure, we'll invite you to thanksgiving
Jehovah's Witnesses. The ones that do leave never get to see or speak to their family and friends ever again.
Fun fact, you can let people be wrong.
This is something I learned when my father started to forget everything.... And I mean everything.
I was surprised he knew his own name sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disparaging him, these were facts. Everything is in past tense because he's now six feet under. I'm neither happy nor sad about it. I sometimes miss him, but I had a very vague idea of the suffering he endured in the last few years of his life; I'm happy that his suffering has ended, but I'm sorry that was the only conclusion he was going to get from his condition.
Back to the point at hand, when he was starting to forget, it was often more harmful and confusing to try to correct him. He wouldn't understand, and he would end up confused, then he would forget why he's confused, and the cycle would start again because he would ask the same questions about things that were not real. Either those things never existed, and were just a product of his brain slowing deteriorating, or they were from so far in his history that he wasn't making sense.
It was far far less problematic for him if I accepted whatever he told me as his reality, and put myself into that reality, rather than trying to drag him back to this reality. He was clearly confused, mistaken, and sometimes outright wrong in what he was saying, maybe it was based on something he learned in school that was later debunked or something, but it was really common.
For his sake, I stopped bringing him to our reality. I don't need to remind him 10x a day that his wife left him, so any questions regarding where she is or when she'll be home, I deflected; "she's gone out"/"I don't know when she'll return" I tried not to lie to him, just give him enough information to answer his questions, but not enough to rock the boat of his fragile reality. In reality, she's gone out (to live with her new husband), and I don't know when she'll return (probably never).
A few years prior, he considered his ex wife to be dead to him. There was a religious component on that, I'm not going to go into it, but he had very strong feelings about it that seemed to go away.
It was so severe that she actually visited him when he was sent into a care facility (my brother and I simply didn't have the time, training, or skillset to continue to care for him). When she visited, she was his "wife". All him about it after, and he wouldn't even realize that she had been by. It was so genuine that the staff called and asked about it, saying his "wife" was just there. I quickly corrected them (I was his POA).
Letting people be wrong is basically a superpower. You can have a completely crazy conversation with someone, and walk away with a better understanding of who they are. Along pointed questions and watching their brain try to figure it out in real time. I usually go for stuff surrounding why they believe what they believe in a non-threatening way. Try to make them really think about why they believe what they do. Some people just invent information to justify their position and it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. I usually don't scrutinize, I play nice, but it's an interesting exercise.
My favorite justification is "tradition". Ok, but why is it tradition? Is it just that "we've always done this, so that's what we do" or was it done one way in the past four a good reason, which no longer applies? My favorite story about tradition, which I have no idea if it's real or not, is that when preparing a ham for some celebration (maybe Thanksgiving or Christmas or something), they cut the end off of the ham before cooking it, and someone questioned why. Well, there's four generations in the house, let's ask grandma/great grandma. The answer to why this tradition started? Because her husband always bought the biggest ham he could, and she never had cookware large enough for it to fit into. The fact is, some traditions based on a need that no longer exists, or they may be to fix a problem that no longer exists.
If you can successfully provoke them to think and question their reasons for believing what they do, you might just get them to open their own eyes.
Simply put, you cannot fix them. By arguing against what they believe to be true, you're forcing them to justify their belief, in doing so, they convince themselves of their belief, which does more damage. Psychology is weird man.
I used to feel like this. not anymore.
I may have lost some friends, but I gained new ones. win-win imo
church
My faith in Christianity was actually fading, and I started to research it. Doing so actually strengthened it and led me to being baptised lmao.
But we can’t even process reality as it is. Our brains can’t handle it and hallucinate the gaps. Someone who might think their opinions are based on reality might base it on a lie that their brain made up subconsciously. Hence why eyewitness statements are not treated as a cold hard fact.
Me and veganism relationships
The interesting thing is I can't tell if you're talking about yourself as vegan, others who are vegan, or veganism as a concept.
Nah it's not you, it's me phrasing my thoughts so no one understands shit
Oh it will happen too. But it's worth it.
Dear everybody: Your heart is a irrational, stubborn, reactionary idiot. It makes some valid points, but it should always be weighed against what your brain has to say. And that's assuming your brain isn't also being an idiot at the time. Man us humans are stupid.
I listen exclusively to my tibula
Agnotology is a very interesting way of studying this. Also, I'm vegan.
This comic is too true and everyday to be actually funny to a vegan, we just sigh and nod.
My sense of humor got ventilation-shutdown-plused.
Vegan, i aswell am btw.
Agnotology sounds interesting, i now know how i will spent some time on work tomorrow.
Reading theory on company time is just intellectualism 101.
It's scary how often we're asked to question reality. It's equally scary how easy it is to just give in.
That's fair.
People are bad with reality.
If a friend or familiar is not okay talking about a subject, or clashes horribly with you in the topic, just give the silence hint and find something else to talk about. But if this keeps hapening or he/she doesn't take the hint my suggestion is to soft ghost the person to avoid leaving a bad taste.
Or just to get fake negative points on Lemmy.
Blistering irony.
I'm terrified of just finding out that all I do is for nothing and nothing means anything at all.
Testing
Frame 4 is everyone who talks to a vegan