Im counting the days for a Piefed app so i can switch over and be able to forget about ml drama and weirdness
Im counting the days for a Piefed app so i can switch over and be able to forget about ml drama and weirdness
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ca/post/26211900
[Transphobia Warning] Nutomic’s Stance on Transgender People
The only thing that surprises me is that anyone is surprised.
I don't intend that to be snarky, more jokey. But, yeah, it's pretty much common knowledge. Not the first time they've expressed unpleasant opinions on the subject, though not quite this bluntly. There was a minor kerfluffle over it not too long after the reddit exodus.
And it isn't unexpected tbh, that's a pretty bog standard tankie take, if perhaps a tad more trope filled.
To me, lemmy is kinda like a less important version of the Apollo missions. You put up with someone unpleasant because they can get the job done, until things get to the point it can be done without them. German scientists, tankie devs. Yeah, yeah, von Braun wasn't a "real" nazi; whatever.
At some point, either lemmy gets enough movement to get a less extreme team on board, it gets forked, or something else comes along.
Genuinely curious … what exactly is the problematic stance here?
Is it that they think the boxer was a biological male and therefore trans female? Or is it referring to then as a biological male (which seems justifiably politically incorrect to me but not heinous in trying to point out that the Olympic/bougousie can’t be that transphobic, could honestly be a language problem).
Or is it the statement that the bourgeoisie aren’t trans phobic?
"The transgender topic" is already weird as a statement (kinda like "the gay agenda", it comes off as only considering it as a political statement?), and "clearly promoted by the bourgeoisie" implies it's bad.
"As far as [...] lgbt flags on government buildings": it's... not far at all? Again, weird statement.
"Biological male" is both wrong for the boxer (she's cis) and generally used for transphobia (trans women on HRT aren't biological males by any reasonable definition). It's also generally conspiratorial.
Overall it's not explicitly transphobic or bad to me, but it shows at minimum a very misinformed perspective.
I know that I shouldn't, but...
Off-topic: why Nutomic's comment is idiotic
It's a big false dichotomy.
As a class, the bourgeoisie only cares about staying in power. Everything else from its PoV is fluff, to be situationally used or opposed.
And that applies to the trans cause. The bourgeoisie is weakly opposed to trans rights because they get in the way of reproductive labour (trans people are less likely to have children, so they aren't pumping out as many new proletariats as cis people do). However that opposition is not strong enough to make the bourgeoisie ignore pink money, since pink money is still money and money is still power under capitalism.
It's also worth noting that the bourgeoisie doesn't just compete for power with the other two classes (proletariat and petit-bourgeoisie) - it also competes internally. And for that, different factions within the class will seek external support from different groups, and align their discourses to those.
In that situation, what do you expect to see? The bourgeoisie flinging back and forth between lip service towards LGBTQ+ people+communities, and a transphobic discourse. Rainbow-wash something today (it's a cheap and effective marketing tactic!), go transphobic tomorrow; business A plops up a trans flag, business B tears it down. Flush, repeat.
And, well, it's exactly what you see here.
I also encourage specifically Trotskyists to read this text, as it explains way better than I could how the transgender agenda and class struggle are not orthogonal in nature. (Stalinists: be warned that Sybil Davis rambles quite a bit against Stalinism.)
And... on a moral level, let's be frank - you need to be inconsistent like a puddle of jelly, to be a communist but not defend trans rights. At the end of the day, what a good communist should defend is freedom of oppression; and what are those LGBTQ+ activists saying, if not "we don't want to be oppressed based on gender, sex and sexuality"? It's all about human rights dammit.
On-topic: I think that the "forums side of the Fediverse" (nowadays mostly Lemmy and Kbin/Mbin) would benefit immensely from additional platforms; that's why I'm excited for projects like PieFed and SubLinks. I am grateful for the Lemmy software but I can't help but see the people in charge of the project as a liability.And they would still be a liability even if they had any skill building a healthy community (they don't, they suck at it). Relying on a single platform is like putting all your eggs within the same basket, once that basket goes down everything breaks.
It’s also worth noting that the bourgeoisie doesn’t just compete for power with the other two classes (proletariat and petit-bourgeoisie) - it also competes internally. And for that, different factions within the class will seek external support from different groups, and align their discourses to those.
And if someone were to ignore that and view them as a single-minded monolith it can easily be explained as divide & conquer tactics.
This too - even monolithic agents can play both sides, or do lip service for one side while supporting the other from the shadows.
And they would still be a liability even if they had any skill building a healthy community (they don’t, they suck at it).
I agree with you here (and generally the whole post, glad to have found it here). While I think they do suck at community building (and might even admit to as much or defend the need for it) I would add that from my perspective the amount of reflexive dog-piling and harsh criticism hurled their way just for or triggered by their being communists/tankies has probably made it pretty difficult. And unfortunately and problematically so I'd say. Now such may just be the way things are and it had to be navigated if they were ever to build a better community ... sure. And being open communists may then as just a matter of practical reality hinder their community building capacities. But I feel like it's worth acknowledging.
Also, their position of opposing a somewhat consumeristic culture of having a demanding relationship with open source developers is also worth recognising. I wasn't receptive to those arguments in the past, but have since come around to it TBH.
And, the way they've approached federation and presenting their own instance has enabled the lemmy-verse to not have a single monolithic community or culture. They chose before the migration to not push their instance as the flagship and never seemed to want that. They always promoted other instances, and have always federated their own instance fairly widely. So in a way, they've ensured that they didn't have to be the primary community builders for the lemmy space, and I think that has paid off rather well given the relatively small user size here (apart from lemmy . world being too big).
I don't rule out that a lot of the complains are motivated by red scare, instead of saner stuff. And I'm also genuinely grateful for not making
mlthe flagship instance, it would've made any problem worse.However I think that, to be a good open source developer, you need to be at least decent at community building. Because a good part of that development is to gather support so other people can submit you code.
This is the best stated argument I've seen by far for alts for Lemmy. Still, I don't see anything wrong with the statements made being neutral. Not everyone is going to be an ally, but that does not make them an enemy. This post smells like someone trying very poorly thought out psyops instead of simply making their own thing. Lemmy is written in the benchmark of coding languages. The alts appear to target the least secure convenient high level languages. Based on what I've seen, I would be quite hesitant to run my own instance on one versus the other. I've seen a ton of whining here and there, but I haven't seen anyone that has an answer to why they have not submitted pull requests for Lemmy. I find that most concerning. There appears to be a desire to steal Lemmy. I find that deeply disturbing. I left for awhile once before because of similar nonsense. If some one can do better, great, go prove it on your own. If your confidence in your abilities does not exceed envy of what already exists, I already feel completely uninterested in the alternative. There is a lot of nonsense about politics that ultimately have nothing to do with the platform. It feels like deeply destabilizing drama that makes this place toxic.
There is still thinly plausible deniability about the psyops nature of this post, but it is too strong of a pattern for me to ignore as chance. The original message chain was not posted. One side of a conversation proves nothing whatsoever and making conclusions about intent without full context is a fool's folly. The consistent jump to Lemmy alts in comments shows a decided intent and bias.
For context, here's the original message chain. The discourse conveyed there isn't just neutral, it's dismissive - in that chain Nutomic does play down the trans issues and needs.
While we could argue that the original user is jumping at the gun to some extent (and falling into the same idiotic false dichotomy as Nutomic himself), it's hard to claim that she's psy ops, after a quick glance of her profile. She simply sounds vocal about the issues that she cares about. I think that it's the same deal with the OP of this thread, it doesn't look like psy ops for me.
I ain't no programmer, so take what I say with a grain of salt: while performance is important I don't think that it's the whole deal. One of the benefits of Python is that a lot of people know it, can read its code for issues, and can contribute with the project. (This is not a dichotomy, though - I think that an alternative coded mostly in Python, with Rust on critical parts [to address performance and security] would be the best of all worlds.)
But even another codebase in Rust would do great in my book. Besides the whole deal of relying too much onto a a single basket, every new alternative would bring on new ideas, and try to tackle the same problems in different ways. Kbin for example tried to mix microblogging in. And oddly enough it would be a great way to shut up all those "waah devz r commiez!" complains ("ah, you don't use software made for commies? Use [alternative] then."), while still allowing them to reap the benefits through federation and open source.
I just got banned from [email protected] for posting that screenshot
Welcome to [email protected]
general rule of thumb is that if you see a .ml community there's always a better one on another domain even if there's not.
I will be joining in :)
Linux doesn’t seem like the correct community for it but it could’ve been deleted it’s so weird they would ban you for that
I mean to say that I posted the screenshot from the original post
Update 2:
Just like when hexbear.net called them out on different terrible takes (ie what counts as csam and other awful mods)
Why do they go through the effort of banning people from individual communities when site banning should be enough? It honestly just comes across as vindictive.
Honest question: Why does it matter if he's a transphobe when choosing which Fediverse software to use? The software is FOSS and anyone can make their own instance. I don't understand why his social views outside of sharing the software and protecting it from becoming proprietary matters when deciding what Fediverse software to use.
I'm not arguing my stance. I really want to understand what I might be missing.
When people are successful, sometimes their ideas are too. They become a sort of standard, or justified. While I speak only for myself, I think some folks feel like if this guy's projects are successful he could use that success to oppres people. It happened to fluffy JK Rowling.
Honest question: Why does it matter if he's a transphobe when choosing which Fediverse software to use?
- Because some people have actually financially supported him. I'm not trans, but I would be devastated to know that my money went to feed someone who wants to destroy me.
- I already have trouble convincing transgender people in my social circle that Lemmy as a software is safe for them to use even with the variety of trans-inclusive servers like yours, and will be safe and inclusive in the future.
A great example of (2) is the fate of PolyMC. Thankfully, the other developers forked it into Prism, but transphobia put that whole project in jeopardy for a bit.
The software is FOSS and anyone can make their own instance.
IMO that's why I'm not immediately dropping my account and running for the hills, but it's still not good. Most people don't have the technical skills or the interest in learning them to run their own instance.
I really want to understand what I might be missing.
IMO it's that even though he does not personally control how Lemmy instances are run, and even though we do have a good degree of robustness to transphobia because the software is FOSS, it is still both morally and technically ill-advised to have a transphobe at the helm of an open-source software project.
Because he's the developer. He can easily change a line of code to exploit users and servers across the fediverse. Sure, some may notice immediately, but others won't.
@xnx PieFed won’t have an app any time soon due to the way it’s implemented. It’s still awesome without a native app because it’s fast and doesn’t really need direct access to hardware to do its thing.
Tech detail: PieFed is a Python app using Flask and server-side rendered HTML templates. It is super fast as there’s no heavy Javascript framework being used. The maintainer has written about how PieFed is developed with poor internet connections in mind: https://piefed.social/post/6102
PieFed won’t have an app any time soon due to the way it’s implemented.
Why is that? They seem pretty similar on the surface, so I'm curious differences exist under the hood which would preclude app development.
There isn't anything stopping this. It's just that no one is working on an app. And there isn't any API implemented (yet) for an app to hook in to and fetch posts and comments. Both could be programmed. Someone could also copy the Lemmy API and use arbitrary Lemmy apps with Piefed. I think the developer is open to any of that and I'm pretty sure I read some feature request. It's just that the focus currently is on other things. And Piefed works well as an progressive web app. You can open it in your browser and click "Add to home screen" and you'll get an icon and a browser window that pretty much feels like an app. I'm using that and also don't see any benefit in putting in the effort to maintain an app, when it works well as is.
You cloud give mbin a try its developers are nice people :) Although there is only one app for it (interstellar)
When you guys implement https://github.com/MbinOrg/mbin/issues/486 I might switch.
I'm not the biggest fan the Mbin interface (that's mostly a taste issue, nothing wrong with it per se), but that feature could be enough for me to give it another try
This is very disappointing. I'm glad lemmy is federated and open source, so that I don't have to endorse or support every single view of the creator to use it.
Nutomic's view is very misguided. The section of the bourgeouisie that expresses support for trans people often do so out of opportunism (though some probably genuinely support it They're human after all). The fact that transphobia is still rampant should be proof of the lack of an "agenda". And what is this agenda about anyways? Acceptance? Or are people really still thinking that there's a push to turn cis people trans the same way we have done the reverse since forever?
I thought you mistyped PixelFed lol. Good to see there's another Lemmy clone like sublinks.
Happy with my current instance, but the urge to try out PieFed grows… would probably mean abandoning Mbin though and Mbin is already so tiny compared to Lemmy…
Aren't the communities more important than the platform, as you can access the communities whatever platform you use?
My concern is because regardless of what communities I can access, Mbin is so tiny compared to Lemmy that I feel a bit bad abandoning the less-used Fediverse platform. One less not-Lemmy user, even if I still prop up the same communities with my activities. Well, I'd still be a not-Lemmy user, but I guess one less Mbin user, which I feel could use all the help it can get.
I think this could and should be true. But enough people scroll All that a more community focused dynamic does get dissolved. At least so I fear.
That being said, I feel like all threadiverse platforms could go further in enabling communities to be more well defined spaces.
The private and local only communities features coming from lemmy go toward that I think. But other things like multi communities, wikis, chat, more specific reminders and perhaps visibility options for each post could help too.
I think they're responding to a transphobic comment and not being transphobic themselves. I think they're addressing a far left, socially conservative conspiracy of saying "trans people r bourgeoisie inventions for culture wars to distract the public from the class war". This person is saying that this is a far fetched idea.
I'm correct in understanding this, right?
Gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not understanding right.
Oh man. That’s some sick shit. He had obviously been saving up this speech, waiting for an occasion to spring it on some unsuspecting poster.
Oof. Tankies rlly r weird, huh
Still not clear on what’s so trans phobic here (having read the context, which is a private message TBC).
It seems like they’re saying that major coordinated transphobic misinformation from the bourgeoisie is unlikely given that there’s also clear pro-trans activity. Whixh is superficial IMO as such doesn’t discount multiple activities but it certainly isn’t defunct logic I’d say, where there are clearly transphobes and plenty of transphobic energy in mainstream culture at the moment.
But I don’t think they’re saying transphobia isn’t a problem. The first rule of the instance they admin is against transphobia, for example. It seems to me all they’re saying is that it isn’t a major mission by the bourgeoisie. Which compared to making corporations and capitalism happy is maybe not unfair.
That's not the situation at all.
I've said before that I could add piefed support to Interstellar (it already had Lemmy and mbin support). The only thing I need is an api.
The bourgeoisie would only care about profits and maintaining their power, right? They'd be both pro-lgbtqia+ and anti-lgbtqia+ if it gets them profit and/or pushes attention away from their misuse of power.
Like selling Che Geuvara T-shirts, while running propaganda against him.Or are they seeing transphobia as mainly a reaction of religion/conservativeness? Even then a part of the bourgeoisie would try to profit off them, right?
Or did they respond as such because they saw the bait-y bourgeoisie remark(there are screenshots of the convo in the comments there)?
Would be good to see their response other than a screenshot of one reply in their private message convo.
Yea I think this is the context of their comment. Compared to buttressing capitalism, being pro or against trans people is neither here nor there as far as major coordinated missions from the bourgeoisie (or mainstream or whatever).
That they seem to think the boxer in question was biological make is likely off/inaccurate AFAICT, but that’s a moving story and not following it closely is no major issue I’d say.
Some insensitive or inappropriate language is going on here maybe. But I wouldn’t know and would want to defer to trans people to guide any understanding.
Woww wtf!!
The developer is expressing their opinion on their instance using their software. The beauty of federation and the software he has crrated is that you can build a community that you want.you never have to interact with or his instance.
This post is drama for the sake of drama.
He receives thousands of dollars in donations to make the software. I’d rathe people start supporting software developers made by non bigots
It's a weird place to draw the line. You probably use all kinds of products with scumbag companies and owners yet you draw the line at a guy's Foss project which has nothing to do with his views and the project barely makes min wage yet serves tens of thousands of people.
You don't need to withdraw your support because you already do nothing to support. Again I think you are creating drama for the sake of drama. The guy is an open Communist and you are shocked that he's transphobic.
that
postmessage from nutomic is a classic demonstration of the horseshoe theory.Without context, that comment sounds ok to me?
Maybe you need the context of all the transphobic shit that’s happened lately, like the Olympics boxing stuff? Idk, it still seems transphobic without context. No clue who this guy is though
Lead Lemmy dev
The context is they're positively stating the "men in women's sports" part of that exchange.
Here’s the context https://lemmy.ca/comment/10767763
Okay. I'll remember you're a transphobe for later.
You know trans people as oppressed people are allies against our oppressors, right? Not granting them personhood benefits the bourgeoisie
You're not contextualizing reasonably here. The bourgeoisie in his context meaning, the capitalist class. It is just a comment about how it has tilted to fashionable to support LGBT. That is a reasonable statement. Participation in events is a controversial subject for many. Personally I believe gendered sports should be entirely eliminated in favor of singular combined competition of humans, but I'm a giant dude that loves cycling, where a little woman could have a real advantage over someone like me. I find sports that lack such diverse nuance somewhat outdated.
Many might not see the two party system of the USA as what it presents itself as internally. It is not hard to say, this is a one party system that wears two masks and be entirely uninterested in which clown color mask faces forward at the moment.
I see indifference. I see neutrality. I don't see two sides of a conversation with transparency that qualifies the accusation friend. Feel free to post with transparency though.
what if they are turned out to be like this or hate other set of people? lemmy by design is defederated so even if the devs are like this, you can just simply call out them or leave their lemmy server lol. i am sure there are trans friendly lemmy servers out here.
as long as lemmy by design is against any sorta people, you dont have to boycott it.
Yeah lets ignore the lead dev’s opinions on stuff its not like they have power over the project and a big number of users on their server.
Its ironic you say this from the ani.social instance which was previously defederated from ml because the lead devs thinks all anime is degenerate or something like that and it ruined the anime community since ani.social was still too small
Like I said in my earlier comment, if the devs make changes in lemmy which by design discriminates any sorta people, yeah people should be leaving lemmy. Twitter just shoves and boosts hate and polically biased posts (favoring elon, the app's ceo). Lemmy devs are just extreme leftists (tankies in lemmy's language), but it doesn't push or shove their views onto me or anyone (in my knowledge).
Its ironic you say this from the ani.social instance which was previously defederated from ml because the lead devs thinks all anime is degenerate or something like that and it ruined the anime community since ani.social was still too small
lemmy.ml defederated with us, it was just one instance. it is unfair and not justified but again, I dont miss much because of that.
Bourgeoisie means the middle class, it's frustrating that term has become incorrectly popularized as "those in power" or "the upper crust".
Not quite. Bourgeois were the merchant class which was the middle one during feudal times. But now they have become the ruling class and the term has started changing in meaning, but the old use still Is valid
I've heard the argument, but we already have more accurate terms like "capitalist".
I'm not saying people are going to stop using those terms, I just find personally find it silly.
It's like calling a truck a bicycle, and then having to explain every time that you understand a truck isn't really a "bicycle" but you have to call it a "bicycle" because everybody else calls it a bicycle.
Next time someone asks me what Lemmy's like, I'll just refer them to this post.
"And see? That's my comment down here with the gif."
Honestly seems dumb to me. The vast majority of lemmy is not like this at all. It all depends on what you subscribe to.
That there’s always some background radiation of Fedi drama … yea I’d agree with you on that … sad to see TBH. IMO, some just want to create drama and get tribal without actually doing anything positive.
So, for context
- this is one of admins of lemmy . ml.
- that instance’s first rule is
No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia.
- This person is also one of the core devs of lemmy
Because, IMO, fedi drama is almost always overstated and overblown, especially when it comes to specific “incidents” … because we’ve gotten addicted to social media drama/rage …
I’ll provide my own impression without any context, pretending I’m a relevant moderator
- it seems they’re challenging the notion that the same culture can be both pro-trans and anti-trans at the same time.
- which seems superficial unless it’s about a specific incident
- they seem to think that the Olympic boxer that’s caused an incident is actually born biologically male but is a trans female, and cite as much as proof that the west is not wholly anti-trans
- my own impression is that the boxer being biologically male is mostly rumour and accusation, but I’m not close to the story at all and can understand how someone not following the olympics would conclude that they’re trans
- without context I’m not sure I could conclude whether this is transphobic, at all actually.
- Probably misinformed, but I’m also not informed on that issue, which also seems to be a moving “story”.
- The user’s perspective is also relevant here, where being a known communist, they’re likely to think anything the west does is flawed and always boils down to class issues.
- so given that it’s a sensitive topic, I’d follow up the comment with an attempt to frame the sensitivity of the issue and ask the author to consider editing their comment or reconsidering their stance just to flag the potentially transphobic reading of the comment.
Here’s the killer though … this seems like it’s a private message in response to a query … in which case I’m not sure there’s any moderation to be done and without more I’m not convinced this transphobic at all.
So many things I'd have to look up to understand what's going on and why this is supposedly transphobic.
What bothers me more is private discussions being aired publicly.
“Aww we can’t say hateful things in DMs without worrying about it still getting out.” 😭😭😭😭
If you don't believe in privacy, then I don't think we have anything to talk about.
A participant in the conversation chose to share, so your entire argument is bullshit
OK, so you'd be fine with everything you said in private being recorded and then shared with the world? Are you confident you've never said anything that's offensive to anybody? You don't harbor any opinions you'd only share in private? No information you'd rather keep private? "As long as a participant in the conversation shared it, it's fair game", right?
Anti Commercial-AI license
Oof yikes you're a evil transphone. Scraping your profile to train it into a large LLM btw
I say "privacy matters" and that makes me "a [sik] evil transphone [sik]". This is why people don't take you seriously. "You're either with us or you're against us". Tribal thinking, just like the MAGA crowd.