I’m not religious and have plenty of issues with organized religion in general but I do support any Christians who aspire to live by the teachings Jesus actually preached. And it’s always good to see someone like this Reverend here, willing to call out conservatives who wear their supposed piety on their sleeves while espousing bigoted, selfish, reprehensible beliefs.
It's so God damned rare these days. Literally the only positive religious group experience I have had my my adult life was the day after the first George Floyd riots, I spent 8 hours on emergency overtime at my dispatch center. The next day I was out in the area and a local mosque decided to go around cleaning up broken glass and boarding up looted stores because "our brothers and sisters are hurting". I wish more people acted that way.
The only pastor from my parents church who had any interest in helping the community ended up getting ousted over a differing interpretation of some Bible verse or other. I had stopped going for almost a decade by then so who knows.
Now they're more interested in remodeling and expanding the church building to make it more gaudy.
You know, like Jesus said when he helped the merchants at the temple maximize their earnings potential, "rule of acquisition #10, bitches!"
Relevant link. https://youtu.be/ANNX_XiuA78?si=2eZJ1t5Gn5bmj52K
the teachings Jesus actually preached
Except that we really don't know what those would have been, and there's a pretty decent likelihood that many of the most popular sayings like "blessed are the poor" and "easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle then a rich man to get into heaven" were additions after Paul and what later becomes the canonical church shift their splinter of the tradition to start collecting money from people.
"Want salvation? Too bad you have all that money - maybe we can help you out with that."
For example, in apocrypha that has a decent chance of also dating to the first century, it depicts a Jesus ridiculing the very idea of prayer, fasting, and charity as necessary for salvation, instead characterizing it as a birthright for all people and those who give money to the church as being like people who take off even their clothes to give to someone else in order to be given what is already theirs.
This is arguably an even more transgressive tradition and version of Jesus than the one Paul offered up, and was more in keeping with the pre-Pauline attitudes about "everything is permissible for me" and the resistance to his rights to profit as an apostle discussed in 1 Corinthians.
There's a significant survivorship bias in modern Christianity - for example, a tradition that changed the prohibition on carrying a purse and collecting money from people when ministering (Luke 22:35-36 - absent in Marcion's version which was likely the earliest copy) was more likely to survive and thrive than ones that had limited fundraising capabilities as originally directed.
So while yes, he may have been all about helping the poor and downtrodden, it's also entirely possible that a lot of it is a load of BS meant to separate fools from their money by an organization claiming to do those things on people's behalf (you'll notice in the Epistles vs gospels that Paul, who is supposedly collecting money for the poor back in Jerusalem, mentions a gift of a nice aromatic in Philippians 4:18, and then in the gospels written later on there's a scene where Jesus is given an expensive aromatic and chastises those who criticize him for accepting it rather than selling it and giving the money to the poor).
Personally, I prefer the nuance in something like saying 95 attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas: "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back." There's a bit more nuance in that this addresses not an obligation for everyone including those struggling with money to give to the poor via the church but rather the inherent wisdom of recognizing the diminishing returns on personal wealth for the rich and the value in directly enriching one's environment rather than hoarding a resource you can't take with you (the point of the parable in saying 63 in the same work).
So while I'm inclined to think that a historical Jesus probably was against hoarding wealth stupidly given the overlap between unique extra-cannonical and canonical sentiments, I'm quite wary that the extreme degree of bleeding heart asceticism we see promoted canonically is much more than a sales effort by a parasitic organization that went on to build the Vatican off its back.
Yeah I went through a phase of reading biblical history when I had my faith deconstructed, and you quickly realize how many different Christianities there were. As well as the political context for why these sort of ideas were able to spread in this specific part of the world at that time in history. I think the version of the story told in Jesus Christ Superstar actually does a decent job with the structures of authority and their conflicting interests. To me Jesus was likely a very charismatic "nobody" who gained a following by expressing sentiments that were kind of already floating around, until it caused a problem for the authorities who needed to keep the peace or risk Rome intervening. Whether Jesus actually said what's in the Bible isn't important, we know people thought he said that stuff and that it resonated strongly with many. We can infer things about people at the time based on what they ascribed to Jesus.
My favorite interpretation of the Bible is basically it's a collection of stories from medieval times. It was rough back then I mean if you fell in the mud, your life was over. You're trapped and no one is helping you, your kindling won't be warming your family tonight.
And then this dude comes along and a hand comes in view. You flinch at first, I mean why not kick a dog while he's down? But no, the hand grabs your arm and pulls you out of the mud. Nobody saves your life! This man is, this good man is a saint! His story is written.
A few decades later another man collapsed in the sun and another nice guy gave him some water. His story is written.
Another few decades later a different guy is low a few cattle and sheep and his neighbor, maybe someone who was moving to Egypt, just fuckin' gives you his whole flock. His story is yadda yadda yadda.
Jesus is just a collection of society's niceties. Why else do you think these people were living for 900 years!? "Sonny boy your great great great great great great great grandfather from 50 years ago only survived because Jesus pulled him from the mud!"
In short - the stories of Jesus' deeds was never just one person. I mean, literally the guy whose skeleton they have sure, but in terms of the Bible these stories existed long before Jesus came along, then more stories got added after him too, many attributed to him retroactively.
WWJD is actually a great moral role of thumb, the problem is that so few self-proclaimed Christians follow his teachings.
Except for the part when he called for his followers to take up swords and abandon their families (Matt. 10:34-36, among other passages).
And the part where he claimed that loving the Father took precedence over treating others with love and respect (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), which opens the door for all manner of inhuman atrocities and hate in the name of "loving God"
You are aspired by the teaching that you should speak in metaphors so people don't understand you and they will burn in hell? Or the teaching that you should abandon your family and means of survival depending on skydaddy? How about the teaching that you should love a person so much that even your own children you feel hateful to them by comparison?
Hell isn’t a real big feature of the Bible. Jews started getting an idea of hell from the Greeks around the time of Jesus - there was Sheol before, but it wasn’t really “hell”. This idea of perpetual torment in a some sort of arrangement run by Satan is something that developed of thousands of years, and isn’t Biblical. The hell we imagine is mostly the creation of a late medieval poet :)
I’m not a Christian, but I think it might be helpful for you to read the Bible as a historical document. If you read it angrily, and just look up verses to disprove Christianity, then you work yourself up and don’t develop a better understanding of the text. You seem to be arguing with a lot of people in this thread as if they are religious when they are not. The fact that God is not real and that the historical Jesus was not the Son of God does not mean the Bible is stupid and garbage.
To be honest, this is something that really bugs me; people using the Bible for their own benefit. They say, "we love Jesus!" and then go and keep doing exactly what they were doing before. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep ny commandments" (John 14:158), and James said, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:26, but there's more in James 2:14-26). Yes, they might say that there's too many commandments-- but Jesus also said "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.". That is a summary of every single law/commandment in the entire Bible, all of the others are just more specific instructions on how to do that. All that stuff about turning the other cheek and going the extra mile-- it's not saying to just put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice. It's talking about what people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi did, using oppressors violence and mistreatment against them. The third commandment, "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name." (Exodus 20:7) isn't just talking about saying "ooh mah gawd" when you stub your toe, it's talking about using God's inapropriately or disrespectfully in any way, including for personal gain.
All that stuff about turning the other cheek and going the extra mile-- it’s not saying to just put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice. It’s talking about what people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi did, using oppressors violence and mistreatment against them.
Doesn't it? I think when Jesus said "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." Matthew 5:39 he meant put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice - do not resist an evil person and do not retaliate when attacked.
I think when Jesus said "love your enemies [...] Be perfect" Matthew 5:44, 48 he meant love your enemies and be perfect.
I think when Jesus said "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor" Matthew 19:21 he meant sell your possessions and give to the poor.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn't actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
I think the above quotes are good things to do, eventho I'm not an ethical enough person to do them. I also think all the supernatural things Jesus is quoted as saying is bullshit, and that it's better to be honest than to repeat a bunch of stupid fairy tales.
the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn’t actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
It meant both. It was a clever pun. At least according to some understanding. Doesn't matter the sentence only makes sense if the gate is small.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn’t actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
There’s no evidence to support this. It’s an elaborate bit of apologia that rich Christians use to try to dodge the fact they shouldn’t be rich. The copium is so strong that people will dig up pictures of specific gates (from centuries later) to try to back it up.
I think when Jesus said "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." Matthew 5:39 he meant put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice - do not resist an evil person and do not retaliate when attacked.
This one takes a bit of cultural context, I have a book at home that has a good section on this but I'm traveling now so I'll type this part when I get home. But the gist of it is that don't just 'put up' with it, but be kind to them. Fight violence and oppresion with kindness. draw attention to them. Force them to treat you (even if just to fight you) as an equal. Like it says in Proverbs 25:21-22, "If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you."
I think when Jesus said "love your enemies [...] Be perfect" Matthew 5:44, 48 he meant love your enemies and be perfect.
yep, that's what He meant: "Love your enemies, pray for those who curse you". I think this ties in a bit with the cheek turning.
I think when Jesus said "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor" Matthew 19:21 he meant sell your possessions and give to the poor.
This is what He said just before the bit about the camel going through the needle eye. A man came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus told him to keep the commandments, and the man said that He'd done that all his life. Then Jesus said "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.". The man then walked away sadly because he had a lot of stuff and Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn't actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
yeah He meant that it would be easier for a camel (like the animal, camelus, this one) to ge through the eye of a needle (like the hole in the end of the sewing tool, the bit in the top right corner of the main picture of this article). Also lol for Supply Side Jesus.
I think the above quotes are good things to do, eventho I'm not an ethical enough person to do them.
Same here, but with God's help I come to Him, He pulls me closer, and I become more like Him. And when I fall (or jump) He comes and gets me and picks me up again.
I also think all the supernatural things Jesus is quoted as saying is bull****, and that it's better to be honest than to repeat a bunch of stupid fairy tales.
I'll have to disagree with you here, I firmly believe that Jesus is God come to earth as a human.
(sorry it took me ages to reply, I've been busy and I wanted to sit down and think about this reply)
third commandment, “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.”
I thought it was because people swear to God in court and witness testimony was all that civilization has in terms of evidence.
Thank you, I love every word you wrote here! I'm an atheist when it comes to picking labels, but I think there's potentially good things in these value systems (and bad, like with everything else that is man made). Focusing on labels is missing the point.
Username checks out. Great post.
I wish this ever worked on Christians with political values on the right side of the spectrum. The fact is they refuse to see the contradictions and don't care.
We've tried to use this logic on family and friends in a loving capacity and it essentially never works. They are the Bootstraps for Thee but Not for Me party. Subsidies are only for the rich who deserve it.
For some of them, I think it's because they feel a thing first, and then reach for justifications second. If you say something that contradicts their feelings, it won't feel true to them and they won't believe you. It doesn't matter how true it is. They're driven by emotion. It is extremely ironic that the right wing is the one that says stuff like "facts don't care about your feelings".
If you want to change minds, you probably need to make them make emotional connections to the thing you're trying to get them to believe.
Belief is also social, so if you want their beliefs to stick you need to get them away from the group that's believing nonsense/hate/whatever, or they'll go right back.
It is extremely ironic that the right wing is the one that says stuff like "facts don't care about your feelings".
With them it's always projection.
It works on my parents. They're Catholic though, but Latino so they've voted Republican many, many times. But they don't vote for Trump, and they don't vote for DeSantis. They really the walk, and they think the modern Republican party is completely betshit.
These people would definitely crucify Jesus if he came back
A brown person that advocated for caring for those around you, and fought against greed? Looks like the sinister Jewish cabal are sending the illegal immigrants to take over our country with communism - git em!
The real Christians got persecuted and crucified two thousand years ago, for saying "be kind to one another". The Christians we know today, their antescendents converted when some dude in power said they were now Christian. They didn't become different people.
No, they got persecuted two thousand years ago for challenging the power dynamics of a conservative theocracy dependent on revisionist religious orthodoxy.
Which is very ironic given the embracing of the tradition today by a group hell bent on establishing a conservative theocracy dependent on a revisionist version of that tradition which brought it more in line with said religious orthodoxy.
Evangelists use The Bible as a shield and scripture as a weapon. I like to think actual Christians aren't these people.
It's always been funny to me how religious people, who follow their religious doctrine to the gritty details, are called "extremists" when they're the only ones actually following the doctrine.
You're either an extremist or a fuckin hypocrite who chooses to cherry pick which parts of the doctrine you choose to follow.
Either way their beliefs mean nothing to me and I'm absolutely fucking sick of hearing about whatever bullshit sky daddy they pray to.
True Christians today are socialists. But, they would also reject that label.
Well socialist dictatorship supports at least. Paul was clear that the leadership was ordained by God.
They were not persecuted to any real extent and the few that were was because they weren't giving sacrifices to the gods. Not because of any moral reason.
You can even see it in the first time a political leader mentions them. He says that he lets them go if they just agree to make an offering. The Romans had zero problems with charity the Romans had zero problems with people being nice. They had a problem with not respecting the gods because they "knew" that if you didn't bad stuff would happen.
There was no golden age to Christianity that they fell from.
Even with removing the Christian aspect from this, it’s pretty heavy and a strong point.
I wonder what their plan is to retell the story in 8-12 years from now when people who were effectively left behind on purpose are of voting age.
We already know, they'll pretend it was the democratic president's fault
Their plan is to have full fascism in place of democracy by then
8-12 years from now when people who were effectively left behind on purpose are of voting age.
The plan is for them to not be able to vote in 8-12 years. They're already wanting to raise the voting age.
God I hope they continue the push to raise the voting age.
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
The more time and effort they waste on an issue requiring a Constitutional amendment, the happier I am. Let 'em spin their wheels.
Sure has been a trip finding out that I'm the naive one for believing all the things my parents taught me as a kid growing up Christian..
All that "love your neighbor" and "turn the other cheek" stuff went right out the window the second wearing a mask became even the slightest inconvenience. Hard to recognize the people who taught me in Sunday school, now that locking kids up in cages and putting undesirables in camps is part of their media drip.
Sucks a lot.
I feel ya. It was a long process for me to realize that my Catholic family actually does not give a shit about the poor (just get a job), the sick (why do I care if they don't have health insurance?), the oppressed (slavery was actually good for black people because they learned useful skills!), the hungry (defund WIC!), the dying (assisted suicide will cause them to go to hell), wellbeing of children (defund public schools, 10k dead in Gaza, no more school lunches, take your pick), the nuclear family (200k families displaced in Gaza), the stranger (dirty immigrants), etc, etc, etc.
The list honestly goes on and on and on and it is such a shame.
Every time this shit comes up we have to have the same discussion.
These people aren't shitty because they aren't following Jesus, they are shitty because they have been made credulous by religion, believing whatever is convenient for the scam artist on the pulpit.
This isn't going to get fixed by trying to argue some romantic interpretation of Jesus that you think would be nice. They are stories, made up stories, contradicting stories and lies. You will never find truth in the Bible or any religious text because it's made up bullshit.
We need to help free these people from religious shackles. There have been studies that have shown that as you become less religious you become more compassionate and less judgmental.
OP's argument has to be made. You want to shave off as many of the fools following that twisted ideology as you can, via any argument that rings true. Which means your argument also needs to be made, but I don't think it's going to convince a lot of conservatives or undecided voters. Hell I think pointing out the hypocrisy as OP is doing is more likely to convince them to become atheist, than your argument is.
Removing religion altogether is a long term goal that sounds nice. Not having the world's superpower go fascist is a short-term one that is essential. Turning a fundamentalist christian into a compassionate christian makes the danger go down significantly. And you can get decent traditions of charity and even activism from the compassionate side of christianity.
And on a final note, I've been in atheist circles long enough to see some of them go bad. Like racism, mysogyny, etc. Atheism does not cure all. Religion makes things worse but is not the source of our problems.
What I'm trying to get at, is society's problem run deeper than religion vs atheism, it's just one dimension, and not the most important.
Wherever it's going, step 1 is, if possible, engaging on their own terms with material they have accepted. No one is going to be receptive to just rejecting the belief system they grew up with just because someone said so.
If the scam artist is tapping into the material they were fed growing up and framing what they want in those terms, and your counter point is "well everything you were fed growing up with was stupid", guess who wins?
Hitler and Stalin didn't rely on religion. Assuming that's the only cause it's a big mistake.
I agree with your sentiment, but I have to push back on Hitler not relying on religion. At the very least he used religion to get his population with him. As far as I remember his religiosity has been questioned as being sincere or not, but he himself never claimed not to be christian if I'm not mistaken.
The SS literarily wore "God with us" on their belt buckles...
I think even that is giving them too much credit. They like to hurt and abuse people and fundamentalist, far-right churches give them groups to abuse and absolution from their imaginary friend.
No it is a very valid argument
We all already know it is stories, your based atheist take however, in perfect irony, does not detract from the logic of the statement and is not fitting here
Ain't no love like Christian hate.
I thought it was ain't no hate like Christian love
Either way.
Razor wire in the water?
What kind of monster would do this?
I am not joking; I am genuinely asking.
Some issues have gotten confused. There were buoys that texas floated in the water. A few drownings went on around them and they were ordered removed. There's some international law there. I'm not sure how much razor wire was in their construction, but it was definitely a safety hazard
The razor wire is another issue, and the ruling for it is really the bare minimum and appears to be misrepresented by the right. Texas had been putting it everywhere for years. This was not an issue for the federal government in most situations. However the federal border patrol has to do their job (regardless of the fact the right pretends they don't to smear political rivals). If they see something on the other side of the razor wire that requires their attention, they need to get to it. To do that they cut the wire to get to the otherside. Texas, not wanting to have to replace the wire everytime, sued to make them stop. The federal government basically argued blocking them was obstructing justice and other official business(including things like rendering medical aid). Courts have found on the federal side. Texas is trying to ignore it. If someone is on Texas' side you can always accuse them of obstructing justice. They kind of are in cases where there is actually justice to be done. In other cases they are just sadistic.
A follower of Christ. Which he has stated multiple times.
So many christians today are eager to live like old testament Israelites and wish only to put the sword men, women, and children in glorious sacrifice to their bloodthirsty vision of god.
Except all that pesky other stuff like "the worker deserves their wages", and "treat the alien(/immigrant) and poor among you as one of your own".
No, I think they equally abuse both Testaments. Woman, submit to thy husband.
Husband, submit to thy wife."treat the alien(/immigrant) and poor among you as one of your own"
Yay, someone actually knows their Leviticus 19!
A sentiment that's one of the few things in the Old Testament that's not anachronistic given the emerging picture of archeology.
Joshua killing the Canaanites? Poppycock nonsense.
Early Israelites were cohabitating with Philistines and Canaanites for much of the early Iron Age, and the animosity towards those neighbors in the text is a pile of revisionist BS.
For a newly emerging pastoral community to survive, getting along with their neighbors and not being a dick to others was adaptive as shit.
Christians don't look up to Jesus anymore.
Don't stick us all in the same basket, many do not believe in using religion to attack but as a guide to our live not to force our beliefs on others. If not interpreted in a way to show fear or anger at others, it really is a beautiful thing.
"God's hired hands and the devil bands, packed in the same grandstands" - Joni Mitchell, "Tax Free"
Why not? Jesus loved dystopian capitalism.
The real religion of the US is capitalism
Marx actually wrote on the concept of Capital as a "real god," ie something actively worshipped, not just a quick metaphor. It's super interesting and very funky.
Do you know where I might find more about that? Like, what should I search for? Never mind, I found it.
Americans worship money.
Many people in various cultures worship ( or at least value above many other things) money or the status goods it brings.
This becomes obnoxious quickly.
All you gotta do is say, “Good night, Jesus. I love you.” BAM, free ticket to heaven.
It would be funny if heaven existed and they’re going on about the border crisis with the mortal realm. “I played the harp for going on 8,000 years. THEY TERKERJERB!!! I don’t see why we don’t make ‘em all wait in hell and apply for asylum! Heaven is for the heavenly. They don’t even speak angel!”
:p
If they were actually religious, I'm sure this tweet would mildly irritate them.
The odd thing to me, is that you can make them aware of it. And they remain completely oblivious to the hypocrisy. An example would be homelessness. When you tell them Jesus wouldn’t allow that, they respond with “they chose that life,” or “that’s just the way things are.” Without ever considering the ramifications.
It is sad but this is why religion is separated from the government in any successful country, religion is based not on facts but on how you interpret the words in the bible and one phrase can be interpreted in many ways, in real life things do not work that way. I believe religion can be very beneficial to everyone if used as a guide and not as a means to control others.
"Was talk of virtue just pretention? Was I to naive, to expect you to heed the morals you're purveying?"
Hey HH in the wild on lemmy let's goo
CHRISTIANITY HAS ALWAYS BEEN USED TO FOOL ABUSE AND TERRORIZE THE PEOPLE. NOW IS NO EXCEPTION.
Probably especially so since Jesus was a Jew preaching the Jewish faith and the guy who made most of the rules of the Bible was a rich dude who never met Jesus once.
And still, we will see conservatives disguising as centrists blame all of that to the democrats because they let them do it.
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” — Jesus (Matt. 7:1-2)
Rev. Cremer: goes on Twitter and judges a bunch of people he's never met for things they didn't do to him
We're all sinners, aren't we, Ben?
'Fantasy and delusion is my identity...'
I’m not a sky-daddy believer but the poetry of that tweet actually hits hard.
Still: Jesus was a confection. ‘Why invent the Jesus?’ https://youtu.be/LTllC7TbM8M?feature=shared
You're not allowed to give people any sort of bribes when voting for good reason. Its a form of rigging elections.
“I know we got rid of polling places and redistricted everything for the eighth year creating longer lines than ever in order to disincentivize civil participation by regular people, but those folks over there handing out bottles of water to people waiting in the sun to exercise their rights is rigging elections!”
That is definitely one of the takes of all time
Lmao least surprising comment history ever.
"Vote for me. I'll give you water while you wait in the baking sun"
This is how people get elected 👌
LOL
Giving a wealthy suburb ample facilities so people can just walk in and vote in 15 minutes, but understaffing and skimping in an urban area so people have to wait in line in the sun for 5 hours is voter suppression, which is a form of rigging elections.
