To all of these enlightened centrists in the comments: Just make sure to get down off the fence before the barbed wire goes up.
We are already at the point of campus grounds fenced up against protesting at multiple places,
Nazi germany had grocery stores. We won’t notice democracy ending.
What a crazy analogy... What it sounds like you're saying is join the left or right before things get violent (the barbwire). We need to stop all this grouping and separating people. We're all American! That is the identity we need as a group, not left, right, centrist etc etc.
Neoliberalism in the early 90s pulled in a few people from the Republican party, cost a shit ton of voters who had been faithfully voting D for their whole lives, and despite never really pulling anymore voters than that initial wave, the DNC still wants to continue the march to Reagan era trickle down economics hoping they can guilt trip voters because Republicans have gone absolutely insane on social issues to differentiate.
Meanwhile a candidate with an actual "centrist" economic policy isn't something we've been able to vote for in a generation, let alone someone that would be described as "leftwing" in any other 1st world country. Because the billionaires donate to both parties to ensure they always win.
The only difference were allowed to have these days is social issues, and apparently it's so bad now that genocide is one of the things the American public isn't allowed to have a day in anymore.
Political centrism and moderation in the Democratic party didn't begin with neoliberals.
Look, centrism is a real thing. There are people who really do like to analyze each and every problem from a more or less unbiased viewpoint and form strong opinions without the influence of ideology, while being ready for a compromise. Anyone who was serious about being a centrist I ever talked to defined their ideology this way.
With that being said there also are right-wingers who like to masquerade as centrist or sometimes moderate left just so they can use their supposed position to more effectively plant their ideas and try and normalize them.
But the thing I'm sick and tired of is when people try and pretend that this is true for every centrist, while ignoring the real problem that there are radical elements that try to masquerade as moderate ones and in doing so are polarizing and actively destroying our society.
Being centrist in America is just being right wing then generally. America is very skewed to the right globally
Yeah, it comes a lot from non-Americans on here, then the Americans get upset. The truth is, the Republican party is way further right that most right-wing parties across other western nations. The Democratic is centrist, though has only recently steered away from being a ight-wing party themselves, again, compared to other countries.
The NY Times does a summary of it using data from the Manifesto Project. So, when that's your environment for the last few decades, it's hard to notice that a "centrist" from other countries is very likely to share the same and more left ideals than much of the US left-wing.
And the use of the spectrum by Americans is insane as well. It's so misunderstood and emotional more than anything else. The major criticisms of the left-right spectrum are exactly what Americans do with it and what we're seeing in comments here. The lines are drawn, the sides are made, they don't necessarily watch the media, but all of their political consumption is shaped by it and it trickles into their views without realising or intending. This leads to them using the wrong terms for things, explaining traditionally right-wing ideals as if they're left, and no understanding that a person—and most people—hold both left and right ideas on things. You could package up something right or left with an opposing label on it, and so many would eat it up, because "That's what I am." It seems so clear from outside the bubble, but not in there. In there it's its own beast.
They should be pissed that they've come to behave like this, but they don't realise.
This view only works in a world where the right and left have a common view of reality and a common agreement on what the outcome should be, they just disagree on how to get there.
Which is why being centre-left or centre-right makes logical sense, since the positions and policies within those halves are consistent with their perception of reality and desired outcomes. And being unbiased about which position to pick within those ideologies is perfectly reasonable.
But being a centrist between the left and right doesn't make sense, as the view of reality and goals is entirely distinct. There's no middle ground between "cutting social services for the poor because you believe poor people deserve to be poor, and that hierarchical societies are inherently right", and that "we should increase social spending to help those that are less fortunate because an equal society is inherently just".
But centrism isn't about finding the geometric mean of the two sides it's about analyzing each problem separately, making compromises and initiating slow change.
There is. It goes like this:
Deficit spending is fucking us as a nation. We cannot add new programs that we cannot afford. I neither believe that total equality is a good thing, nor that absolute hierarchy is a good thing. But having a well-structured hierarchy that facilitates movement around the hierarchy is valuable both from a structural standpoint and from a social standpoint.
Poor-specific social programs should be cut, and replaced with a UBI that is pulled from a universal (including stocks, bonds, etc) sales tax.
A federal health insurance that negotiates with medical suppliers to reduce costs, and that requires hospitals to charge the actual costs.
Being ideologically in between the left and right doesn't mean that the left and right will provide reasonable options to vote for - just that you'll vote for them if you can.
As you've seen with the massive inflation due to bank bailouts and covid spending (money just printed), we literally must stop the deficit spending, or else the economy will grind to a halt - like with covid, but way worse.
I'm definitely center. There's a ton of stuff I disagree with the majority of Lemmy on. (At least my home instance .world). That's because reality is nuanced, not all progressive politics work, or left politicians good.
But I'm not stupid, both sides clearly are not the same. Both bad in unique ways (from an American perspective that is) but one side is so much worse than the other to such a extreme degree that most of their politicians and even to a smaller degree their followers are just not worth the time of day.
I wish we lived in a world where we could all get along and have differing ideas without everyone getting all mad. Sadly we don't. So I play the line, that way my family can hopefully get the best outcome. It's all I can do.
The problem with you is Center in America is right wing everywhere else, so you aren't doing the good you think you are doing
I feel the same. I considered myself just left of center but if the political compass site is to be believed im about halfway from center to the max extreme for both econimic left and social libertarianism. So I guess im fairly over but I still wonder if that site is still effected by current days because I feel like back in the 70's so much was considered more of a central view.
Alot of this is due to the changes of the times. More people lean harder on both sides nowadays, or so it feels. The political landscape has changed alot since back then.
No idea what to make of all that though. Politics are hard.
Reality is nuances and America is big. Like REALLY big. I don't think a lot of the policies that are important to big cities make as much sense in rural areas and vice versa.
There are big pictures issues, like women's rights, gay rights, and trans rights that need to be protected across the country.
Then there are gun control policies that don't make a lot of sense in towns of 300 people but seem like common sense in cities with millions of people.
Personally, I believe we need to work on cutting out the people and saboteurs who are willfully, vehemently, and incessantly trying to divide us. Those that are doing their damnedest to try and make each other the enemy.
Hard agree.
As someone that grew up most of my life in a tiny, rural Ohio area. There are so many strange laws that extend from the cities, many of which can outright just be bad for the area.
Policy wise, local democrats are rarely liked and seen as weak in rural areas, which in my experience is usually correct, unfortunately. The Republicans are always money grabbers but generally get things done.
Frankly the system sucks.
The most interesting one here is equating fascists with antifascists because I feel like I kind of stray into that at times when antifascists get violent with fascists and punch a nazi protester or something. On the one hand, shouldn't we take the high road and practice non-violence, but on the other hand, nazis would have no problem killing the other side if they had control. It gets into the whole paradox of tolerance and how the "high road" just may not be possible with some people. Maybe punching nazis is the correct response?
I consider myself left-wing on most things, but there does seem to be an almost reflexive tendency on the left to try to shut down any criticism by assuming the worst in people whenever somebody says something even slightly critical or against the prevailing doctrine. If you don't sing the highest praises of some groups everytime and assume that they can never do wrong, you're automatically assumed to be an extreme right-wing/nazi/incel/homophobe/transphobe. You're either completely perfect or you're scum.
Part of it might be from dealing with right-wing propaganda campaigns online for the past 10 years or so, where you can't even have coherent arguments with right-wingers anymore, it's just not even worth your time to argue with them because they're ignoring logic anyways and they're not arguing in good faith, there's just no point most of the time.
I’ve been following antifascist reporting for a while now, and it always bothers me when people will just stop supporting antifascists as soon as a nazi gets punched. It almost feels like they think the worst part of fascism is violence, not the mixture of everything else while using violence to enforce it. I’m personally all for punching nazis, preferably in self defense, though it’s not the best tactic (humiliation works better with fascists, bring back vegan milkshakes).
Some people are just so scared of violence and love to put themselves on a pedestal for being better than that, while almost always being fully isolated from the fascists while having no skin in the game.
I also fucking despise the online left. I’m an anarchist, and have been a socialist for pretty much my whole political life. But the online left will chew you up and spit you out for a single mistake. If you end up in some areas it’s pure dogma, and you will get angry replies for hours on end for not being the same politically.
I swear, the online left would rather do nothing and remain virtuous rather than go outside, fuck up, and learn from their mistakes while actually bringing their politics into the real world.
Pacifism works until it doesn't.
At some point, talking unfortunately just isn't enough. There is a point where more direct action is needed. It's why we had to have a war with Nazi Germany.
If we always go non-violent then it lets those who are willing to be violent to take advantage of us and have their way. I'll take small violences like punching Nazis over big violences like war any day.
Stay safe. Your sentiments are valuable and appreciated.
When you come across an actual fascist you need to cut that shit out like cancer. Back in the day, when I was young, fascists of multiple flavors, and other WP/ethno state, groups would attach themselves to music scenes I was interested in. So they would show up to venues for those scenes. They would initially just chill, and be cordial, and if they didn't get forced out, they would start coming more often, and bringing more of their fascist friends. This leads to the venue being a nazi hang-out. Everyone else sees that they are there, no one is forcing them out, and they stop showing up, because they don't want to hang in the same space as these shit people.
So when they did show up, they got forced out, often with violence. It works. After being beat up a few times, they move on. Eventually they end up in their own place, and everyone knows it is the nazi club, and avoids it. This isn't to say they didn't make pests of themselves beyond this, but they didn't come around as often, and when they did they made it clear they were there to start fights. Start fights... or gather in their trucks/vans, drive down into the city, and wait around outside of gay venues for a lone gay person, then drive up to them, jump out and attack them.
Their ideology requires violence in the end. So they should be treated as an inevitable source of violence. There is no place for paradoxical tolerance.
Oswald Mosely learned this the hard way.
This reminds me of a tweet I saw recently. It basically boiled down to:
There are different battalions of progressive movements with different goals. Those groups being radical, progressive and moderate. You should recognize your place within these and do your part, while not criticizing what the others do.
I thought it was pretty eye opening. Helped me to contend with my feelings about moderates as a radical. lmao
It's more about whether you're authoritarian.
A lot of 'antifacists' i know are the first people to scream at others for 'being out of line' on a political issue. They claim to be anti-facist but practice politics like facists by trying to intimidate, harass, demean, and bully anyone who disagrees with them. Because they are the authority in their mind.
In my mind they act just like the fascist Trump people they claim to be against, they just use different sets of words when they are harassing/screaming/threatening people.
"...but there does seen to be an almost reflexive tendency of the left to shut down any criticism by assuming the worst in people whenever somebody says something even slightly critical or against the prevailing doctrine."
- Not true
- Do the above on the right and the response is that they build a gallows, call you a RINO to claim you never once actually truly supported the party (ever in your life) and threaten to impale you with the sharpened tip of a flag pole.
You see my enlightened, friend... You're kind of just exactly being OP's meme on this point. If you can hear me all the way up there, on the unprincipled higher ground?
The most interesting one here is equating fascists with antifascists because I feel like I kind of stray into that at times when antifascists get violent with fascists and punch a nazi protester or something. On the one hand, shouldn’t we take the high road and practice non-violence, but on the other hand, nazis would have no problem killing the other side if they had control. It gets into the whole paradox of tolerance and how the “high road” just may not be possible with some people. Maybe punching nazis is the correct response?
It's actually not, neither morally, nor pragmatically. This has been researched, and I literally have a copypasta about it, because it's something that just about everyone seems to either be ignorant of, or uncaring about (because they value the short-term 'cheap thrill' described below more highly).
Also, to be clear, it's perfectly possible to actively, and aggressively, oppose public expression of terrible points of view, without violence. I'm not, nor are the experts cited below, saying "ignore them". It's honestly not that hard to make them look like total fools--but taking a swing at them isn't going to do that:
It may feel cathartic and satisfy primal urges for retribution, but in the long run, 'punching Nazis' doesn't hurt the neo-nazi ideology, it helps it. Feeds the persecution complex, turns the guy you beat up who didn't physically attack you first into their martyr. Gives them more fuel to rally around and further radicalize them into wanting revenge.
Prioritizing a cheap, temporary thrill over real, lasting change for the better is ultimately self-serving, and not in service of your cause; ironically, it completely undermines it.
On a purely pragmatic/practical level, it's a bad idea, if your goal is to oppose Nazism.
Experts on extremism/terrorism etc. are all saying the exact same thing.
See for yourself: (emphasis added)
In the case of violent counterprotest tactics — e.g., punching Nazis — experts on extremism say it is likely only to aid the white supremacists’ cause.
The most commonly stated argument in favor of physically disrupting white-supremacist rallies is that society can’t give an iota of legitimacy to these groups. To allow them to spread their message of hate is to offer them a platform to recruit and to glorify their cause. What this logic leaves out is that it may well be the case that hate groups are better able to recruit and glorify their cause when they are able to engage in violence, regardless of how that violence starts, according to researchers in the field of countering violent extremism, or CVE.
“On the one hand, I don’t think these expressions should go unanswered,” David Schanzer, director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University, said of the recent white-supremacist gatherings. “But you’re essentially giving them exactly what they want when you try to confront them directly.” That’s because these groups’ efforts to recruit and mobilize supporters rely on a very specific strategy that benefits greatly from violent conflict.
In the U.S., explicitly white-supremacist groups know they are vastly, vastly outnumbered by everyone who hates them — their paltry numbers being an easy thing to forget in the age of social media and especially so this week, in the wake of a real-life white-supremacist murder. So their only hope for relevance is to maximize every potential bit of media coverage. And the best way to do this is to create media moments: scary, evocative images like the torch photos from last weekend, but also as many violently photogenic confrontations with counterprotesters as possible. Producing violence is an underlying, often unstated, goal of many white-supremacist protests and gatherings.
When violence does break out, videos of it race through the internet’s white-supremacist underbelly, serving as incredibly valuable PR material. It doesn’t matter who gets the better of a given confrontation: When the Nazis get punched, it’s “proof” that anti-fascists or liberals or [insert minority group] or whoever else did the punching have it in for “innocent white Americans just trying to protest peacefully.” When the Nazis punch back, it’s proof that their enemies are, to borrow a word from alt-right parlance, “cucks” who are easily bested in the streets. Even when white supremacists lose street fights, they win the long game.
This sort of tactic, said Jeffrey Kaplan, an academic researcher and the author of a number of books on terrorist movements, “is a constant in terrorism or any form of asymmetric warfare,” whether the group in question is jihadist or white supremacist or whatever else. Kaplan, who is an incoming professor at King Fahd Security College in Riyadh, summed up the extremists’ logic like this: “Our numbers are paltry, we are despised by our countrymen and we couldn’t get a date for the life of us, but any action that has enough impact to strike at the heart of the enemy by getting media coverage is a major triumph.” Violent confrontations allow extremists to make a tantalizing offer to the angry, disillusioned young men — they are almost entirely men — whom they hope to groom to become tomorrow’s haters and killers: We are part of a movement to change the world, as you can see from this latest video that movement is working, and you can be a part of it.
Schanzer laid out a fairly straightforward alternative: Counterdemonstrators should respond assertively, vociferously, and in far superior numbers — but at a distance from the extremists themselves. This tactic both prevents the sort of violent conflict American hate groups want, and has the added benefit of drawing at least some media and social-media attention away from the smaller hateful gathering and toward the much larger counterprotest.
“Violence directed at white nationalists only fuels their narrative of victimhood — of a hounded, soon-to-be-minority who can’t exercise their rights to free speech without getting pummeled.” “I would want to punch a Nazi in the nose, too,” Maria Stephan, a program director at the United States Institute of Peace, told him. “But there’s a difference between a therapeutic and strategic response.”
...when mouthpieces for white supremacist ideology are physically assaulted on camera, it becomes a powerful validation of their victimhood complex: in their minds, plain evidence that white people are indeed under attack, and motivation to spread a call to violent response with renewed zeal. This “punch felt round the world” was a great boost to the “alt-right” cause. If you aid and comfort neo-Nazis, which is exactly what punching them in the face does, you are no better than they are. Real life isn’t a fucking Quentin Tarantino movie.
When I was a neo-Nazi skinhead over 2 decades ago, I got beat up as often as I beat anyone else up. It never made me any less violent. In fact, we used to pile into vans and drive from Milwaukee to Chicago for the thrill of brawling fellow devotees of romantic violence like the guy throwing the punch in this video. We lived for violent opposition. We thrived on it. Violence of any sort, no matter how it may be rationalized, is the bread of hatred. We put mustard on that shit and gleefully gobbled it up and clamored for more.
Back in the 1930s, there were gangs of communists who routinely brawled the Nazi brownshirts in the streets of Germany. Their contemporaries would have us believe that if there were more communists who brawled harder than they did back then, that the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened. As a former neo-Nazi, I can attest to how important it is to have violent opposition in order to maintain the hatred necessary to hurt people. The communist gangs helped Hitler’s National Socialist party come to power not only by galvanizing their own members, but more importantly by serving as a crucial ingredient in the overall atmosphere of fear and loathing that led the German general public to look to the Nazi party for order.
Ewww no. Fuck balance. Go hard when you can, mitigate losses when you can't.
I'll count on you to do that.
I'm not from the US but I would describe myself a a left leaning centrist. The parties I voted for in the last 5 elections where all center left.
If you map the parties based on left/right and progressive/conservative my vote is definitely center left and high progressive.
The US has a political system that sucks, where you only have 2 real options. A system where multiple parties have to form a coalition gives you the voter many options.
The parties I voted for in the last 5 elections where all center left.
Part of the problem with American politics is that you've got a set of centrist policies (fund public education and health care, regulate hazardous businesses, guarantee some degree of public safety, high speed mass transit, business friendly borders) that are significantly different from actual policy that the Congressional consensus reaches (privatization of education and health care, business deregulation, privatization of security, mass transit neglect, borders that are hostile to trade and travel for anyone who isn't a corporate entity).
A system where multiple parties have to form a coalition gives you the voter many options.
I haven't seen that bare out in the European block. Christian Democrats dominated German politics for decades, despite a multi-party system. The Netanyahu government has built coalitions that lean further and further to the right, until he's embraced outright fascism to stay in power. Taiwanese parliamentarians openly brawl on the assembly floor, without ever shifting domestic policy in a popular direction. The UK political landscape does not appear to meaingfully improve with the introduction of Scottish Nationals or Liberal Democrats.
You might have more options on paper, but the real policies always seem to favor private corporations and international arms dealers, regardless of which faction or coalition composition wins out.
I'm not left or right I'm a secret third thing (Our current system is a complete joke and I'm plagued with dread about my inability to enact meaningful change, I still vote and stuff, but I don't feel like I'm having much of an effect)
Don't try to put me into one of your boxes please.
A 2 party system is a bad idea.
I have also seen a lot of people who line up squarely in the middle of moderate Democrats on every issue, but don't like to be associated with the inexperienced college kid stereotype.
Oh, neat. Propaganda done in the style of Far right facebook boomer humor! Love seeing Lemmy constantly generalize and misrepresent people.
I mean, damn, I consider myself a centrist but that basically means “not a worthless shitheel asshole traitor in the bag for russia and against doing anything for the American people”. I think gummint should GTFO peoples lives (so fuck off with your shit about gay people and religion and abortion) and pay its fucking bills (so fuck off with your tax cuts and spending). And it’s fucking absolutely asinine that any mentally defective degenerate can get a goddamn semiautomatic weapon, are you fucking nuts?
So a Manchin Democrat?
No. I do not associate with either party, but vote strictly D because I’m not fucking insane. 20 years ago I could have considered voting for an exceptional R, but fuck all that. I think I’ve always been centrist, nowadays center left, but everything has shifted so far right that I couldn’t possibly associate with the republican traitor filth.
I voted Bernie in the 2020 primary.
It doesn't really sound like you want the government to get out of people's lives. Fair taxation, defending protected classes, and gun regulation are all very hands-on, and I agree that they're all important. The real thing right wingers mean when they say "small government" is "no regulation for corporations or states" so they can be as authoritarian as they want locally and the rich don't need to pay taxes. Banning gay marriage, controlling reproductive rights, and immigration control are not small government tasks, they're just tasks they want the authority to mandate on a state level since they know they'll never get the entire country on board.
What I wish more "centrists" would realize is that no one in the country, except anarchists, actually want small government, because they can't enforce control over the things they don't like without it. Rules for thee, not for me.
What is the word… I used to hear it all the time but haven’t really heard it much these days. Oh what is that word.
Nuance.
This was me before covid, then I got radicalized to the left.
Geez... this is scary. Hearing people admit to being "radicalized" by a political ideology, proudly... y'all gonna start civil war or what?
lol Destiny
Neutrals.
Most folks are neutral on a lot of stuff, and it's perfectly fine to be that way.
This is just crypto far righter, not a centrist. This is not a proof that centrists actually exist.
Dude, my best friend, literally
My housemate is kinda like that as well.
Yep this is the problem. People can't even define center anymore, they just think you're not choosing sides.
CINO
I love how people love to divide things into "left" and "right", even though when you cross international borders not only do they not hold, but different issues become jumbled into their notions of "left" and "right" which they suddenly try to explain away with their own subjective prioritization of which issue is the most important. It's specially ironic when it's computer scientists doing it, computer scientists who have to deal with exponential growth of complexity in computer systems, yet still think wetware systems that are going to be much less defined and are going to be a lot less predictive somehow can have their ideologies put in a line. AI hallucinates, but the bipolar linear political system people delude themselves is proof that humans have no problems hallucinating themselves.
The day you can place dots for all parties everywhere without labeling on a graph (I'll be nice, you can have an additional axis) with an objective definition for what is left/right/up/down such that everyone can recognize which dots correspond to each party is the day I will be proven wrong. There's actually several models that attempt to do this and have been applied to AI political bias, and even they can't agree on it. (tangential source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaroJxFTVFQ )
Left and right is the modern day equivalent of the Roman pantheon. There's actually a far more objective criteria, and it is between those who are willing to work within the premises of a system of governance and those who are trying to game it, but unfortunately it does not correspond to what people consider left and right across the borders and is quite distinct and relative to each system of governance, never mind being pedantic versus considering the intent.
It all comes down to representative democracies being better than winner takes all personality driven democracies, which warps people's views into extremes that can't tolerate critical discussions e.g. US republicans who believe it's all a conspiracy and want to radically change the US, US democrats who won't discuss criticism about Israel, or consider ranked voting systems and popular vote over electoral college. With representative democracies, voting "nOt LeFt Or RiGhT" doesn't result in a lost vote, but means you can have additional opportunities to refine your vote. It's a big reason why in the last elections Spain didn't fall to the fascists.
You're right: we should be socialists and have governments like the PRC, North Korea, the ex-USSR, Cuba, Hoxhua's Albania, or the Stalinists in Spain during their civil war. Say what you will about the Khmer Rouge and Sendero Luminoso, but they weren't centrists or moderates.
You saying every country to the left of us, and there's a ton, are basically totalitarian regimes? And please, tell me which countries are more right wing than us that you'd be happy to live in?
probably none,
but IIUC leftism isn't necessarily socialism.
