Let's be honest, the whole thing has always been a little weird.
I'm German and learned about this via a friend from the US. When they mentioned it, I thought their teacher was a lunatic. Then they told me that this is normal course of action. Just what in the absolute fuck.
It depends on where and when in the US. In areas that are Democratic (the more liberal party) it doesn't really happen much anymore, but in areas that are Republican (the more conservative party) it still happens at the start of every single school day.
And the custom of doing this was started by a salesman trying to sell flags and magazine subscriptions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy#Pledge_of_Allegiance
Growing up, for a time my folks were way into the evangelical thing and I attended a totally batshit religious school where we recited 3 pledges back-to-back every morning. To the U.S. flag, the Christian flag and the Bible. Then had to recite entire chapters of the Bible we had per force committed to memory that week. Failure to do so was grounds for savage corporal punishment. No other experience in life so inoculated me against authoritarianism and organized religion. It also let me know at that tender age that sadists existed.
My wife used to work for a company that had a morning stand up and daily affirmation. I told her it sounded like she was in a cult. She agreed.
In high school like 15 years ago we not only had the regular pledge, we had to pledge to the Texas state flag. Which you hold out your hand like you are holding something?
"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."
It's all hot garbage and unquestioning nationalism. The good bit was, only one teacher ever gave me flack for sitting out the pledge with my little emo ass. And that was my ultra conservative AP US Government teacher. And he was just a nut ball. But when I framed it as my freedom he chilled.
He was still wrong about flat taxes not being regressive!
That's so weird to me. I grew up in an area of Texas that is very red today. We quit both pledges in the 3rd or 4th grade. It's weird that we did it at all, but that was back when they also taught that freedom of the individual was super important and if you didn't like what someone else was doing you could always just look away because it wasn't your fucking business. So they didn't make us do it at a certain point because it was counter to the other shit they said. That was in the years leading up to Ann Richards being voted as governor so that may inform outsiders of what was happening at the time.
There's a lot of problematic shit that happened when I was a kid. Don't get me wrong. But at least they seemed to be headed the right direction at the time with the info we had (that's a whole other ball of garbage that I'm not picking at today...ask me another time when it's not 3am). I had forgotten about both pledges as an adult until someone reminded me a few years ago that it was a thing.
Texas has gotten way more idiotic over the last 30 odd years.
A little weird?
Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.
It's the sort of thing they probably do in places like NK, or the Third Reich, you don't expect it to come from a supposedly modern, non imperialist nationalistic nation, ya know? :-(
I'm from the UK, my wife is from Singapore, and our son was born in the US. I really don't think it's appropriate to force him to pledge allegiance to the US, because he has strong ties to other countries. It feels like brainwashing.
I hope you don't live in one of these 46-47 states.
Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.
Apparently, schools will have to display the ten commandments in classrooms, which means all the kiddies with functional brains get to wonder why chanting to a piece of colored fabric isn't considered worshipping a false idol.
Also, all the military recruiters will get to awkwardly explain the whole "thou shallt not kill" thing...
all the kiddies with functional brains
It is the job of the education system to root out these potential future threats to social order.
In French schools that kind of indoctrination would be immediately likened to the Nazi-empowered Vichy government in the 40s.
But you know, the grandchildren of those have brainwashed enough people that they're already seeing themselves in power right now, so maybe we'll get that again soon, and a lot worse?
French people, vote today. Please.
If you take a look at pre 1943 US, you might see some inspirations for Hitler there.
The Bellamy Salute was pretty much the same. The Pledge of Allegiance was done with it. It was changed to the hand over heart style in 1942.
I said it once, I say it again. Why the Flag? I don't get it. Why not the Constitution? The Flag changed so many Times in US history.
Is there an actual reason or just because the flag is a more visual Token for loyalty?
The visual qualities are exactly the point.
If you wave around the constitution, it's indistinguishable from some random bits of parchment. Most people can recognize their flag, even when it's flapping around and next to similar flags. Humans are just very visual creatures.
In either case, the pledge isn't actually to the object itself but to the country represented by that object.
The problem we have in the US is that Old Glory is commonly used to represent some particular group's vision of what the US should be rather than a symbol of the country as a whole. When that sort of change is broadly positive, such as when it started to become a symbol of American ingenuity in space, it's easy for everyone to rally behind. When it starts to symbolize a message like, "We should give the police unrestrained power." it becomes more divisive.
It fits the rhythm, the cadence better. Makes it easier to remember and recite.
What is strange to me is while you're made to repeat the pledge every day as a child in school, the practice is not carried into adult life at all. We hear the national anthem at every sporting event (not that I go to sporting events), but I can't think of a single time I was expected to pledge allegiance as an adult.
I live in Ireland, we had an American teacher visit our school for a year. She taught us the pledge, it stands out as one of the stranger memories of my childhood. That and her repeated “they didn’t want bush any more, they wanted Clinton”. Which should give you some sort of hint of how long ago this was.
Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.
Even in Russia kids don't chant in devotion to a state flag in schools. America, please fix your schools.
I know what you meant by “state flag” but I want to be cheeky, so here goes:
We didn’t pledge to a state flag but the federal flag. But the state of Maryland has a fabulous flag, and I’m still devoted to its design all these years later.
For whatever reason, in the 70s, in Maryland, I only recall pledging allegiance in the morning at the start of school during first grade. I don’t think we did it past second grade. In any case, I took the opportunity to insert curse words. I would say it like, “I pledge allegiance to the shit, and to the asshole for which it shits.” I didn’t lower my voice either. I just figured that I would never be noticed. Thinking back, I am surmising that my teacher must have noticed at least once but just ignored it.
All public schools pledge allegiance to both state and federal flags in Texas.
You sound like a CGP Grey enthusiast https://m.youtube.com/@CGPGrey
Even worse, some versions of the pledge make you swear "under god" which is fucked up. Christian Nationalists are what is destroying america.
Christian NationalistsReligious fundamentalists are what is destroyingamericaeverythingFDFY
Yeah, you can thank Eisenhower for that. Didn't use to be like that. I usually pause at that point or idk maybe say under Satan.
https://www.history.com/news/pledge-allegiance-under-god-schools
Indivisible is the funniest part to me though. It's like saying the Titanic is unsinkable
GoodHow can there be different versions of the pledge? Is it that each state technically has their own pledge?We added "under God" to the pledge in the 50s or 60s. At the same time we put "In God We Trust," on the dollar. We were differentiating against the USSR which was an atheist state.
If you were expecting me to play google and give you a rundown on pledge of allegiance modern history, I'm afraid you've hit a dead end.
Christian Nationalists are what is destroying america.
So it's not all bad news, then.
I remember when 1 student in my class said she wasn't doing the pledge and the teacher said something along the lines of "it's a free country so you don't have to" almost no one did from that point on.
I was made to sing the national anthem in front of my whole class
A country that truly believes in freedom and democracy shouldn't require you to take a loyalty oath every day.
This whole thing is such a mind fuck and crazy process for people outside merica. I really thought it was a joke on movies, but realising that they are really all brainwashed since children like this makes a lot more sense when you consider everything.
The Conservatives here in the UK wanted to enforce something similar, but in the form of a patriotic song. Everybody just laughed. That would never fly here!
It's almost like if you have to keep telling yourself that you live in a free country, you probably don't.
And we’ve had multiple lawsuits decide exactly that - you do not have to do it.
With this court, all bets are off though.
In most schools, it's not. But they don't advertise that.
In most schools it is. 46-47 states have laws requiring it.
Counterargument:
If no one believes or identifies with a nation, that nation will cease to exist.
The "and" is the really wierd part.
If they had worded it as "I pledge allegiance to the flag, to the republic for which it stands" you could think: "Ok, the flag is just a symbol of the country, you're actually just pledging allegiance to the country."
But, the "and" makes it clear that it's to the country and to the flag. How can you have allegiance to a flag? It isn't even about pledging to respect the flag, it's "allegiance". It's like pledging obedience to the colour blue, or pledging fealty to the sound of applause.
Here's why:
The Pledge of Allegiance was first published for Columbus Day, on September 8, 1892, in the Boston magazine The Youth’s Companion. It was written by a member of the magazine’s staff, Francis Bellamy. The publication of the Pledge, and its wide redistribution to schools in pamphlet form later that year lead to a recitation by millions of school children, starting a tradition that continues today.
Anyways, soldiers have died to save the flag. Standard bearers were critical officers during battle, and were responsible for holding a unit together, say when charging an enemy line or rallying the troops to defend a trench. Losing the standard could lose the battle and your men.
or pledging fealty to the sound of applause.
There's a joke in there somewhere about chasing fame and the approval of strangers
See, I'm playing both sides so that I always come out on top.
Memes aside, it's totally not a form of brainwashing to have young children pledge allegiance to the flag before they're even old enough to understand the concept of pledges or allegiances!
I grew up in America and have lived in Canada for seven years now. I've come to recognize that Canadians (except for the staunch conservatives who aren't pleased with anything) are proud and loyal to Canada because it's a beautiful country that has (for the most part) taken pretty good care of its people. Americans are proud and loyal mostly because they were brainwashed throughout their lives by pledges, patriotic songs, and tall tales about the founding fathers. I personally found little to be proud of in my thirty years as an American.
Also, one time a pair of planes took down some skyscrapers. Alan Jackson wrote a song about it, and America invaded an unrelated country. That made people really proud too.
Of all the 9/11 songs, I feel like Alan Jackson's was alright. It was contemplative and didn't call for violence. Yeah, it had a religous turn to it, but it was talking about love being more important than politics and war.
Toby Keith, on the other hand, wrote songs about bombing Muslims and other military-porn shit. Fuck that guy.
I'm just so proud of generations that weren't around during 9/11, for making memes about it, and mocking the "NEVA FORGET!!111" Propaganda in the process
George W. Bush absolutely did 9/11 on purpose.
I pledge Ally Sheedy to the slag
Of the United Skates of Emilio
And to the repugnant
for Richard Stanz
One naked undergarment
Invisible man
With Liberace and puffed rice for all.Ra-men
“naked undergarment”
Never heard that oxymoron before.
Stop thinking for yourself, Corey.
Blindly accept allegiance to the piece of fabric we chose, Corey.
Just say the words and be indoctrinated into our cult to be a mindless slave with unwavering loyalty, Corey.
Do as we say, Corey.
For real though, what happens if you don’t say the words?
The First Ammendemnt protects your right to not participate in reciting the pledge of allegiance:
In 2006, in the Florida case Frazier v. Alexandre, a federal district court in Florida ruled that a 1942 state law requiring students to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution. As a result of that decision, a Florida school district was ordered to pay $32,500 to a student who chose not to say the pledge and was ridiculed and called "unpatriotic" by a teacher.
In 2009, a Montgomery County, Maryland, teacher berated and had school police remove a 13-year-old girl who refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom. The student's mother, assisted by the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland, sought and received an apology from the teacher, as state law and the school's student handbook both prohibit students from being forced to recite the Pledge. reference
You might suffer some immediate consequences from ignorant people, but courts have repeatedly upheld that this is protected by the First Amendment. Even the current Supreme Court would have a hard time justifying overturning this precedent.
You could even argue that choosing not to participate is a highly patriotic act, as an exercise of your Constitutional rights as a citizen.
I've always viewed not participating to be patriotic. You are under no obligation to provide oaths to this country, and refusing to do so under peer pressure is can be an act of patriotism.
I got fucking nuclear on my daughter's 6th grade permanent "substitute" teacher for taking my daughter out in the hallway and lecturing her when she refused to say the pledge. I didn't prompt my daughter to not say the pledge, she just decided not to because, in her words at the time, "it's stupid to say a pledge to a flag." And my daughter is not one who is easy to get to do something she thinks is incredibly stupid. Sent her multiple links about West Virginia v. Barnette and the like.
She apologized to me (not my daughter) and also lied that taking her into the hall and giving her a private talk wasn't a punishment, but my daughter didn't have to say the pledge anymore. She told me other kids also refused to once she did, but whether that means one or ten, I don't know.
As for that teacher, I found out after the school year was over that she was telling the kids that Trump really won the 2020 election and it was all a big hoax. I would have once again gone nuclear, that time at the school system, but she had already quit for a job at a private Christian school.
By the way, this woman's previous teaching credentials were "running a children's theater." Indiana sucks.
When I was in school, generally nothing, the teacher might bother you about it, but they for the most part don't care and would rather move on with the day.
Sometimes kids parents would devise a reason to exclude their kid, but it was effectively optional, though generally encouraged.
Your parents get death threats
Note: No government employee can ever legally demand that a citizen recite the pledge.
Someone tell that to my third grade teacher.
They should, yes.
I would be wary of an ethnostate’s offer if you weren’t part of that ethnicity
Much safer to take Russia’s offer
