I will say it’s very easy to accept that victim attitude. I did. I don’t any longer, I’d consider myself a humanist with the belief we need to make society better for everyone.
I’m going to whine for a bit, I’m in my mid 30s now, and when I was in high school social media was new and Facebook was pretty much at its peak. I don’t know what growing up is like for kids these days, but I do know my 11 year old nephew is like the kids in the article and he knows all about “red-pill” alpha/beta/sigma shit (but not how incorrect it is).
As a teenager it felt like being a white straight male meant I was being pushed backwards to make room for helping push women forward (I saw felt like because sometimes how somethings feels outweighs reality).
As an example, to pay for university I went through lists of scholarships and almost all of them were focused on minorities and women, and so I was ineligible. I worked 30+ hours a week after school school and I worked really hard to get up to an A average so that I could get some scholarships to help afford tuition (and I still ended up with debt). It was a really tough time and I was filled with fear about the future. At the time I felt that that I had to put in more effort to get less than my peers did because I was a straight white boy. My girlfriend at the time ended up getting so many scholarships and bursaries that she could afford her tuition, and her residence, and fun money leftover, and she never had to take on any debt to pay for her even more expensive university. I only got one scholarship (not for lack of trying) based on my grade cutoff, and I ended up taking on debt which took years to pay off. It felt very unfair by comparison, and I know her experience did not reflect the average, but that’s what I saw as my comparison.
I also was a frequent 4chan user at the time, I joined for the memes, but there was a lot of commentary about how the education system had been changed to favour girls and that when it was more adversarial boys performed better. By then the statistics had already swung so that more girls were getting accepted into university, and they were more likely to graduate. I still have no idea how true the things I read on 4chan were vs reality, they definitely excluded the narrative of sexism against women in the old days, but they felt real, they matched with real statistics, and it was a cohesive narrative. I got sucked in, and I was bitter, and I saw all the ways in which I was the victim.
Obviously I never experienced any of the downsides of being a minority or being a woman. I never got the perspective of why things were harder for them and why they deserved help. I only saw there was help for them while I was struggling to keep afloat. I only saw the still present expectations on men to be providers, all the bad sides of patriarchy without knowing what patriarchy was (except meaning male and bad). Also at the time, there was stuff like anti-rape pledges that schools were making boys take, and it sorta felt like being treated like a criminal for crimes you knew you would never commit.
Anyways, I’ve meandered a lot. The discourse has evolved but I still don’t think men’s issues get the discussion they need, and I don’t think we’ve seriously focused much effort on the question of “how do we help boys too”.
Now that alarm bells are ringing and it feels like we’re still not adequately discussing men’s issues, and sadly it feels like the only people who actually are, are those alt-right red-pill influencers (who are massively warping the truth to fit a narrative) because they’re not afraid to get labelled over it.
And just to sign off, over 15 years after high school I now see a lot of the privilege I actually had, I’m more aware of the realities minorities and women face, and I know I was a whiny teenager with blinders on to all of the benefits and luck I actually had.
I remembered being the only Asian kid in school on Long Island. It was awful. The constant fights/bullying I was in were so frequent that my parents sent me to defense training.
My teachers would put me down and one of my teachers even physically abused me. The vice principal saw it and didn't do anything either.
But I felt privileged because I wasn't the only black kid in my school. He was my best friend. He had it way worse.
My point is that it is all about perspective. My life sucked because I knew what my friend was going through.
The scholarship thing, and lack of social support for men in general, is still a massive problem IMO. I'm all for lifting those up who need it, but many people, myself included, were too "rich" to get financial aid, too poor to afford anything other than community college (which is great, but it has challenges of its own), and too straight and white and male to quality for 95% of scholarships. I'm very aware I inherently have some level of privilege, and I'm sure there's even more I'm unaware of, but the single greatest contribution to your chance of success in life is the zip code you were born in.
I'm extremely privileged and make more than enough money for a comfortable living, but the road here was very difficult, and it's pretty damn easy to see why young boys are leaning right so hard. I'm left as fuck and id even be considered left wing in Europe, but the left in the US has alienated the fuck out of young men and provides almost 0 role models for them. The constant media messaging and sentiment of men are evil, they need to go die in wars, and #killallmen on social media being celebrated is super damaging. If I didn't end up decently successful and couldn't take a step back and get a top down view of everything I don't know if I'd end up nearly as left as I am.
It's only recently I've seen some sentiment change around this, but it's going to take a long time as all social change does. We really ought to stop telling young boys what to not be and instead SHOW THEM what they should strive to be. This is why people like Andrew Tate get such a cult following. Despite being an absolute dog shit human being, he focuses on uplifting oneself and provides an ideal person who you should strive to be. By comparison that positive male role model who young boys should strive to be is completely absent on the left and leaves many boys, myself included at the time, lost as fuck and surrounded by what they should not be instead of what they should.
I really get this feeling. I remember at uni seeing adverts for scholarships and internships from huge and exciting companies that, in only a few more words, essentially said 'if you're anything other than a straight white male, sign up!'. I won't speak to the value of effectiveness of these programs, but I can really understand how that could create a feeling of unwantedness that the alt right tries to give an answer for.
the morning light hit my stove’s greasy backsplash in just the right way to reveal a finger-traced drawing of a dick ’n’ balls spraying a few fingertip-dots of jizz.
Us mere mortals can only dream of writing this perfect, for indeed here we have an example of prose from an artist at the pinnacle of the form.
I think it's hilarious that his praise of prose contains errors, perhaps intentionally, but pointing out the irony of such errors causes people to react negatively with down votes.
It's like you're the only one who got the joke and everyone else is mad they didn't understand.
The appeal of a grievance-based identity makes it hard to convince straight white boys that they in fact have plenty going for them, and that they have no reason to feel aggrieved.
Yeah, but they do have reason to feel aggrieved. Patriarchy is fucking boys and men over too.
Yeah this part stuck out to me too. It's really difficult to see all that's left on the table when we refuse to acknowledge that boys are absolutely still forced into damaging masculine roles.
Grievance-based identity… Interesting that it is attributed by the author to straight white males; on the right “oppression olympics”, i.e., grievance-based identity, is attributed predominantly to the left.
You do bring up an interesting point there. It does make me wonder how much each “side” is attributing behaviours to strawman versions of the other vs not seeing what they have themselves.
I personally strongly related to the article, I think there’s a crisis in finding meaning in masculinity these days. I think the red pill alt-right types are promoting an easy but unhealthy version of masculinity (fulfilling yourself by status symbols, or min-maxing something, or really falling into the alpha/beta/sigma nonsense).
The statistics have shown for decades that peers are what determine political alignment. The answer is therefore simple: don't send your kids to conservative education.
I’ll add to this the lack of male only spaces throughout life. There used to be scouts, boys sports, working men’s clubs, veterans clubs etc. Almost all of it is mixed now because that was sexist. The opposite has happened in female areas with charity leagues, coding clubs, sports, gyms, etc.
"It might feel dangerous to let a teenager argue that sexism works both ways"
made me hesitate a bit. Any man with a decent chunk of life experience knows that this sexism cuts both ways. Still, I sympathize with the primary message. I wouldn't want my children to fall into extremist politics either.
At the same time providing the fundamentals of critical thinking is becoming more and more challenging with how many different actors want to hijack our emotions for their own purposes and bypass rational thinking.
To add to this - the most important thing is the community. Yes, girls are given special organizations. But the cause of this rightward lurch is a world wide withdrawal from community. We're not spending time together and calling each other out on their shit. Rightwing nutjobs used to be known to be rightwing nutjobs and they were called out for being that way. They knew what they were and they knew the community disapproved. Now everyone is siloed at home on the internet with no social fabric to error check them and tell them that they are being pushed towards nutjobism.
What is the need for male-only spaces? I can see the need for positive male role models for sure, and those would've often been found in those male-only spaces you mentioned. But what is lacking from not having them be male-only?
Why do some women like to have women only spaces? I think different people have different environments they feel most comfortable in, where they can be the most self. I assume that is true for at least some men with men only spaces.
It honestly depends how truthful you want to be. The first is men are allowed to talk about issues with other men without being judged for it. So it could be "I'm worried I don't make enough money for my family" they wouldn't want their family or family's friends around then. Could be "I'm having this sex issue". Could be "this one night stand sexually abused me and if I tell anyone she told me she will go public that I raped her when I was the victim!". Without men only spaces those conversations can't happen because you can't say "oh I'm going to," actually where? haha I can't even think of an example where a man can go to talk about sexual violence, thats how bad it is. But I meant "oh I'm going to go to this sexual violence clinic for men and it will be in secret so you don't know I'm going" it needs to be a casual place that allows for other conversations.
Now this is the controversial part that will divide people. I think most men simply just enjoy men only spaces some of the time. They feel less judged and they feel it's more friendly. I honestly think men only spaces are important to mens health because they can enjoy themselves and act "normal" they can act in a way that feels natural to them rather than acting the way women find socially acceptable.
One reason is because young males bond differently when there are no females in the group. When there are females the males often compete with each other for the female's attention, rather than building strong bonds together.
I came to say the same as many other replies. For older men, it doesn’t matter as much, they can simply create their own spaces, but for boys they really can’t, they are pushed into mixing in most situations. Boys are more boisterous, so need the organized outdoor spaces. They can’t get that male space from sleepovers like girls at that age do.
For another example, think of how a group of teenagers act on their own, now how does that change when you add an adult? It is obviously unhealthy for them to always be around an adult.
Yes, by not introducing trauma of being micromanaged, parented too much and by allowing them personal space.
By understanding that this doesn't mean kids don't need help, they need a lot of it, but you don't come arrogantly with your mind made up about what kind of help exactly they need.
By being respectful of their borders in interests also, because when a kid is interested in anything at all, and the parent thinks it's cool to just intervene "helping" in that interest and "participating" without being invited, especially publicly, that's worse than bullying.
And also doing that thing which may seem stone age - never ever support anybody from the outside against your kid. Teachers, other kids' parents, neighbors, anybody. If your kid does something wrong, you talk. But you don't turn it into something you discuss and judge behind their back together with teachers or whoever else and then come to your kid with your opinion. That's called family values and it really is important.
In short, respect.
Militant right ideologies are attractive for people who feel themselves disrespected. Idealistic ideologies (not only right) are attractive for people who lack happiness. Repressive ideologies (again not only right) are attractive for people who feel themselves weak. Conspiracy theories are attractive for people who feel lost. Reactionary ideologies are attractive for people who feel rejected.
I had conservative parents and I might have grown up the same... but I slid WAY to the left which I attribute to one very specific and pivotal event: watching the news and protests around Trump getting elected while I was sitting in a McDonald's in Thorncliffe Park. Until that day I was pretty indifferent to politics and stuff, but this had me question: what injustice in this world led to this crazy person to take power?
There is a problem that creates a hostility towards feminism as it stands now and minorities.
Look at how positive discrimination has progressed.
The goal is roughly 50/50 representation. But to get there from where we were we have positively discriminated in favour of girls and women.
Desirable entry level jobs do not end up in a 50/50 hire pattern because the starting point was skewed to begin with. Hiring over represents women.
Leadership and management often needs a correction from 100% male to 50%.
That means promotions favour women.
But it goes further back. Educational programs, university places etc. As well as other areas of life. Sport funding, healthcare interventions.
All these areas we're correcting for social injustice against women and we aren't impacting those who are already at the top of the ladder.
Instead we're disproportionately helping women up the ladder to eventually get to equality.
That's justifiable looking at society as a whole. I'm not generally against positive discrimination.
But add on to that the same mechanisms to help minorities and you do have a weight of advantages that can lead to an overcorrection or at the very least feel like one.
Then take it another step.
In the UK there was a program which targeted additional funding for disadvantaged children in education. It recognised girls and helped them, it recognised minorities and helped them.
The program was designed to be agnostic and look at demographics and attainment to determine where funding would go.
At the point at which the metrics used to determine funding pointed to white working class boys, after the pendulum had swung, the Conservatives cut funding for it.
There is privilege. There are reasons to correct for privilege and ways to do that to make a more equal society.
But the way we've chosen to get there as quickly as possible has reversed privilege in small, key areas, rather than eliminating it.
In a world where we have a generation that has spent their entire political lives pulling up the ladder. That right wing generation has found support amongst the young in promising to pull up the ladders only put back down for the select few.
The most desirable jobs and areas for social mobility have been targeted for positive discrimination. To try and create representation of the unrepresented as the first step.
There is increasing inequality overall.
There are those who cannot get onto the ladder seeing the left help people not like them. Just because they aren't women and aren't a minority themselves.
The left has fundamentally failed to target root causes of inequality and lack of social mobility.
Who are you going to vote for. The side taking away your privilege while doing nothing for you?
Or the side who promises not to take that privilege from you?
If the left wants young men's votes it needs to tackle inequality and social mobility directly. Otherwise it may be the correct, albeit distasteful, conclusion, that a culture war benefits young white men. After that it's only a matter of cognitive dissonance to justify the harm to society as a whole for personal benefit and young men vote right wing.
he left has fundamentally failed to target root causes of inequality and lack of social mobility.
If the left wants young men’s votes it needs to tackle inequality and social mobility directly.
What are you talking about? The left has found and implemented solutions to those problems (not perfect but better than nothing) in places where the left had power - northern Europe for example.
I'm speaking from an anglocene perspective I admit.
The "left" in the UK and US has had power. But they didn't contradict right wing economic policy from the 80s when they had the chance.
We'll see what they do next time they get a chance but looking at the UK we haven't had a left wing government that would help since the 70s and it's hard to start a conversation about who to vote for by talking about things that happened before someone was born.
The track record of Labour in the UK and the Democrats in the US is not good enough in the living memory of the voters they want to turn out for them.
If you're good enough with philosophically questioning and deconstruction of ideas in a non-militant manner, you could deradicalise someone. I could not find the news, but there is a father who deradicalised his son by engaging his son's thoughts. The natural instinct is to quickly react and be angry but father kept questioning where his son got the ideas and explained why they're wrong. The son's view did not change over night but it worked.
Giving your children self confidence and educating them also on more philosophical topics is definitely something parents can/should do. The problem arises when parents can't fulfill that task.
What is rightthink and what is wrongthink is already predetermined before conversations start. So someone who is young and wants to think for themselves cannot hold a position that is not already predetermined, they cannot even talk something through to get the right answer because even holding the wrong answer is liable for attack.
Not even that but not holding the right answer and advocating for it aggressively is already aggressively wrong.
And who is responsible for most of these issues? You guessed it white men. No only do they have to hold the right position they have to defend that position more than anyone else.
The world is getting a lot more competitive but I think the thinks most guys care about is getting girls and getting money do to things like by a house. Sex has gotten horrifically competitive with some guys getting laid loads and some guys not getting any. It pays to be the best and guys know that, lying about it doesn't help anyone. Theoretically evening out that somehow is probably better for society but I can't even conceive of how that would happen, but might be an explaination of how marriage for life became the norm.
In terms of money it's difficult for everyone, but then for everyone else to get a leg up when you are struggling is aggravating. All anyone wants is a level playing field and white guys don't get that. Also girls still like guys with money whereas it isn't the same the other way around.
Sure you can say something like women liking guys with money is all part of the patriarchy and pushes that back onto men. But serious, how are the current generation going to fix that? It's okay for women to feel money makes a man but not to change, but it's not okay for men to let that happen. That just doesn't make sense.
Then the mental health aspect is men don't have anything. They get attacked, they get told they need to be strong, countless examples of women abusing men for being weak (that's seems the norm in relationships) I guess that's somehow not women's responsibility either it's the patriarchy. So men find comfort and support in other men but that is also not okay. There are no man days in work, no male only spaces, no one trying to push men into a career for teaching. Men even having a normal guy only friendship group gets attacked in ways that women only friendship groups don't.
I'm sure this comment will do poorly because it doesn't fit the narrative and people will gloss over it but that's the explaination of what's going wrong in guys lives today.
And another hard fact for a lot of people here is the right actually have some points. Can you believe that a huge contingents of different attributes supported by ~50% of the population has some things going for it. I am left wing, probably very left wing. But the way the left act is pushing a lot of people to the right. Conversations with the right are much more open, much more free. The left is so aggressive and unopen to discussion it pushes people away. If the right offers equality and tells young boys they are not born with oringal sin for being boys, then people are going to listen. We need a party that is left economically but individually right.
Boys are told how to think and they must advocate for that position or they are wrong. No discussion.
White men are the cause of issues, even for things like women abusing men because it's due to the patriarchy.
The world is actually competitive for sex and money. More so than ever.
Men getting the blame, not having any help, not being allowed things that help their mental health pushes them to the right because the right has more open conversations and more equality for all. (Well with the exception of financially).
Can you believe that a huge contingents of different attributes supported by ~50% of the population has some things going for it. I am left wing, probably very left wing. But the way the left act is pushing a lot of people to the right. Conversations with the right are much more open, much more free. The left is so aggressive and unopen to discussion it pushes people away. If the right offers equality and tells young boys they are not born with oringal sin for being boys, then people are going to listen. We need a party that is left economically but individually right.
I was with you until this part.
No, 50% of the population isn't on the current political right, not even 50% of the voting population is on the political right. In Canada it's much closer to a third of the population. Just because there are two mainstream political sides, does not mean they divide the population accurately.
And second, Conservative conversation spaces tend to have a lot of censorship as well. Look at the conservative subreddits, or Twitter right now, or Truth Social, or Parlor, or any other "conservative" space. Dissent gets you banned. Maybe it feels like you can have more conversation there because the opposition just disappears and you never have to think about it. That's not to say primarily left wing spaces or online social justice warriors are perfect, there are a ton of very very active anti-car/capitalism/whatever people who will aggressively harass people too.
I have a problem with the inherent hypocrisy in this article. The author presents the issue of her sons "sliding to the right" as a problem in itself, rather than explaining why she thinks it is a problem.
If you, as a parent, see a shift in your child's belief system or political preferences as a problem, you need to do some introspection and be able to fully articulate why it's a problem other than "I don't like it."
Isn't the key words though "the current right"? The right & left of 2003 where both different from today, why would young rightists or leftists grow up to be mirrors of their forbears?
Assuming that just because your son is (for example) whining about video game journalists, that doesn't mean he's automatically going to call for abortion bans in all 50 states. He's a thinking human being with an intact rational faculty, give him some credit.
With all due respect, I think your child deviating from what you’ve tried to teach them is the most natural thing in the world to be concerned about. I don’t think it’s hypocritical.
How many conservative christian parents see their kid not wanting to go to church or reading books like The Selfish Gene and intervene? (I know this is kind of a strawman, but just trying to get the point across that if you shift the perspective to a right wing parent with left wing children, you get kind of the same result).
Besides, I think the author is rather honest with their own beliefs:
For those of us (like me) very firm in our political beliefs, it feels good to stake your position and defend it well. But as adults, we need to figure out a way to help our young people work through confusion without feeling shunned by their own families
The actual issue the author has are: the growing divide between male vs female beliefs seems like a bad thing, and the beliefs that boys are increasingly adopting is increasingly a victim complex.