It’s a dark time to be a tech worker right now
It’s a dark time to be a tech worker right now
Nearly 300,000 tech employees have been laid off since last year, data shows.
It’s a dark time to be a tech worker right now::Nearly 300,000 tech employees have been laid off since last year, data shows.
It's a dark time too be right now.
That's why I'll never have kids.
This is definitely not the main reason I'll never have kids but it is absolutely on the list. Lmao
Imagine purposely bringing another being into this shit hole we live in. I could never.
Executives: We’re doing more with less!
grinding, screeching noises coming from the engine room
Executives: Better profits! Lower costs!
grinding, screeching noises coming from the engine room
To be fair, those are the normal TARDIS sounds.
On the other hand, Dr Who doesn’t have an engineering or SRE staff.
On the other hand, Dr Who doesn’t have an engineering or SRE staff.
Exactly! That's why TARDIS is full on fuel.
"It's a good time to unionize tech workers right now..."
Best time to form a union was yesterday. Next best is today.
I remember seeing articles on habr about unionization and that it is better done now when it is eazy.
When it was a dark time for the empire the shogun cut off the heads of 141 lords... Maybe we should start there.
Land lords
Dotcom bubble. 2008 crash. Covid. Now this.
We've all been through these. Buckle down. Ignore the outliers. It's a chance to rethink and do what matters to you.
Also, ALWAYS have a Plan B, C, and D.
I left the US for less raw salary but better job security and living somewhere I like more (in most respects; nowhere is perfect). Still make way above average for Japan and have a great standard of living
I work at a large tech company, and the feeling here is unlike anything I've ever felt before. There are a few camps:
- Workers on visas that are utterly petrified of losing their jobs, and are struggling to plan for anything long-term, since companies that lay people off can't file green cards for employees.
- Workers that are just numb to everything. They don't give a fuck, they are jaded with the bullshit their employer pulls, and work is just work.
- People that would happily take a voluntary layoff to GTFO, spend some time with family, and potentially move to something better.
What seems to be the dominating feeling that everyone has, is that they no longer support their leaders. They feel there are too many middle-managers, they realise that their C-Suite staff are fucking useless, and the CEO's are almost universally awful as leaders. Sundar has caused Google to nose-dive in popularity, Jassy is so ineffective that no one even knows he is CEO, Musk is a known sociopath going through a mental breakdown, Zuck bet everything on VR to mask huge privacy/product failings, and alongside all of this are dozens of CEO's that forced employees back to the office or laid people off for bullshit reasons.
My hope from this dark time is that companies arise that focus on the employee first, learn from the mistakes made by big tech, and purposefully manoeuvre around FAANG until they are relegated to boomer tech. Until then, like most SWE's, I'm just hoping things get better soon...
I like your optimism. What would an employee first focused company look like?
I would say it would be similar to Google from the early-ish 2000's. Lots of offices worldwide to facilitate in-office working and immigration issues, while also having freedom to work remotely if desired. Also, a structure that leads with empathy, and managers judged on not just output but employee happiness.
There was a lot of freedom in big tech over the last few years. I could transfer pretty much worldwide within a month, I could work on several different moonshot industries with no worry of losing my job (because I'd just transfer to another team), and the market was good enough that if push came to shove I could take some time off and find a new role with minimal issues. I think an employee focused company would keep that freedom, while also keeping employees happy and without fearing for their job.
Keep in mind the core value of most of these companies is "we have a web page". If only all these unhappy developers could somehow create their own webpage and we could all switch to using the web page of a better company...
(Preaching to the choir here, since we're on Lemmy. I guess nobody is making money or employing people because of Lemmy though.)
Sorry everyone, I made the mistake of trying to better myself and get out of this blue collar hell hole existence I live in and started learning web development last year. Naturally this has to happen then lol
:P
Bouncing between high paid tech work and driving forklifts and lifting boxes every few years is not fun. Wish this industry was more stable
This hasn't been my (anecdotal) experience, or that of anyone in my network.
The industry is unstable no doubt about that, but we've never had trouble finding better places to land.
IMO if you've been in tech building your skills for a few years, you really shouldn't have trouble finding work. '01 was weird but there was still plenty of work, especially in defense. '08 was scary but turned out to be a great time to join a startup. Sometimes it's a lateral move instead of up, sometimes it requires relocating , but if you've been doing good work and building your professional network you should never have to go back to driving forklifts (unless you choose to).
That's why I went back to factory/infrastructure. The highs are not high and the lows are not low.
Same. I have a low paying white collar job that I don’t enjoy. I thought I would start learning development just in time or AI and then layoffs. It makes me feel really sick and scared for the future.
A lot of posts and videos have been put up about how it will be fine. That AI won’t take jobs and even with the layoffs, they say head counts are still up, but it feels pretty hopeless to me.
I don’t know what else to do, so I’m just going to keep trying and keep pushing myself to be a better dev. Maybe I’ll get there someday.
There are a lot of companies out there that need help with their technology. Even if AI could solve the problem, they still need someone to implement it. Keep your head up and keep working hard!
I don’t know what else to do, so I’m just going to keep trying and keep pushing myself to be a better dev. Maybe I’ll get there someday.
I mean worker unity and all, but it ain't being better (if it ever was) that gets you ahead in this field. It's who you know not what you know or what you're capable of.
Same. I'm literally bad luck Brian reincarnated.
You can't be if I already am! Lol
Interesting trend in the comments - technology veterans who went through the dotCom crash have quietly moved to union jobs, and aren't sweating this iteration.
Worth keeping in mind.
I've never met a dev in a union. What companies have a union?
I think NASA does
Google has one, but it's still very small at the moment.
Technology unions are common in public sector roles.
Probably because the culture is different in a few key ways:
- Government workers rarely even get a cost of living adjustment, without a union, even when they're critical. Politicians often have the final say, and often don't care about retaining key staff. (Or actively try to lose key staff...) This leads to a situation where the Union has strong public support, because the Union's motives are aligned with allowing basic government services to continue during political wind changes.
- A government doing Union busting gets immediately called out as Fascism. The government telling you you can't get together to talk about how the government should change - is not a good look.
This sounds like more wishful thinking than reality. Like what SWE roles are there that are union? I graduated right after the dotcom burst, with a Computer Engineering degree, I now work as a SWE, and I don't know a single one of my peers that has entered a union.
We need a tech workers union.
I understand other workforces have it worse. however we could get there if we don't push back now.
There is one, Boeing engineers have a union. Also we have ASME and IEEE which are kinda like unions.
There's always been the FSF.
1k job applications since June I'm ready for the inevitable end
700+ applications and multiple recruiting companies later and still only 3 interviews since May. With almost a decade of software development experience. It's actually a little reassuring that I'm not alone here and it's not just a problem with me. Best of luck in your search friend!
Ok whew I thought I was just doing something wrong. Glad to hear but also not glad to hear figuring what we're having to go through
If people randomly drew your name out of a hat, on average you would have to apply to "the average number of applicants for positions you are applying for" number of jobs to get hired. Keep at it, some jobs see thousands of applicants.
Just wanted to drop this update in here for anybody going through this now: I finally got a job offer, but it took over 1700 total applications, and 11 months! I hope you have had some luck in finding something since your original comment!
All the best to you, my dude.
always been
Hmmm. I’ve seen threads on social media from experienced devs having been unemployed for a year now and rather devastated by it.
I know a guy who was let go a year ago. Dude's like 170 IQ - and while people say that, this guy's dizzyingly smart. 3 degrees, he can teach, code to spec, rebuild your delivery pipeline so it fucking howls, manage nerds, and he's been interviewing like it's his job for a year without lasting results.
Some shitty company in Connecticut just flew him out for a project wrap-up, as he's been helping save their ass since their completely out-of-his-depth manager reached out on a public forum for some clue. Like, without him they'd've been 4 kinds of fucked and he was looking for something to keep him sane for a few weeks.
Handshake and a free dinner and sent him packing. Because they could. They got what they needed, and they foolishly think they can get it again when this idiot fucks up again in a month.
I worry a lot of nerds are getting fish-hooked like that, when they just want to make things go and maybe also eat regularly.
I’m not disputing their experiences - I’ve replied otherwise on this thread - but I’m going to guess that a lot of those experienced devs didn’t go through the 2000-2002 ish dot com crash, or maybe even the 2008 recession.
Sometimes the money goes away for a while. The money has currently gone away. Eventually they drop the interest rates, people decide that real estate or EVs aren’t sexy anymore because they’re overbought, and the money floods back in. Then it gets too much, to the point that some kid gets $60M for the idea of selling barbecues and charcoal over the internet, and the cycle repeats.
We thought Keynes fixed this but then decided it was more fun for a handful of people to make shitloads of money and then crash the economy every decade or two.
It can also be a common occurrence and devastating to an individual at the same time. It sucks, and people vent.
I've been in this game a long time and been laid off from about half my gigs. It sucks every time. If it wasn't for the fact that the pay is good and that I like doing it, I probably would've moved to something more stable already.
A certain subset of dev thought they were untouchable. Now they are finding out they're the same level of peasant as the rest of us. Hard fall. :/
Always will be
Is this a joke? Software development regularly comes out on top as one of the best jobs. Good pay, relatively low stress, and good work life balance.
Good work life balance? Low stress? Well paid? Not soul crushing?
Nah fam. Pick one, hope to get your second pick, and if you're lucky, skilled, and play your cards right you can get three. You might get none of them.
No one gets all four... Despite what it sounds like, it's an inherently creative job where you rarely get to pick your project and are regularly put on an impossible timeline.
Wage suppression is well documented, and for some reason no one gives raises... Despite the fact even the best devs need half a year, bare minimum, to be fully up to speed with a mature system. If you're lucky, when you jump after 18 months (the optimal time at a place to keep your salary growing, especially in the first decade) you'll inherit a system in good condition with people who can explain it. If you're very lucky.
That being said, it's one of the only middle class industries left. I recommend it to everyone who has the aptitude - it's one of the most useful skills to have, even if you rarely use it.
Learn plumbing, poo will always flow.
Sounds like a shitty job.
...I'll see myself out.
You sure? We don't always have to poop in the toilet.
One thing I've learned in my time of DIY is that plumbing could never be a back up plan. Man I hate it and it stinks and cramped. Not easy work.
So they’re juicing their profit margins for a couple years. Let’s see what happens in another couple years when they failed to invest in the next things because they laid everyone off.
I wouldn't be too concerned. 300k is not really that many compared to the size of the industry. And there is a ton of aging software that is falling apart due to a lack of investment. Like the airlines. And all the utilities that keep getting hacked. And hospitals. With governments starting to hold companies responsible for getting hacked, there will be jobs to rebuild hold software a plenty.
Most work environments I've been in enable 1 developer to do work that requires 2 developers to maintain.
Yeah, or 3. Lol.
Explain me like I’m five - why?
Because the big tech companies are laying off, all the tech companies have decided they too need to layoff people to lower costs, improve profits, report better earnings, etc.
Fast forward to next year when they’re up shit creek because their skeleton crews can’t possibly do All The Things. Executives retire, take huge bonuses; repeat.
Reminds joke from Ekaterina Shulman:
New governor gets elected and old governor says to new one: "In my office there is safe, there are three letters in it. When you can't hold your position read one letter."
Letters were:
- Blame everything on me
- Fire deputy
- Write 3 letters to next governor
Interest rates were low, which made banks lend money very cheaply. It also led to a lot of money being put in the stock market, which made it go up.
Companies used that money to, in part, hire people. A lot of people. The stock market doing well also means businesses try to grow, because everyone is spending more money.
Interest rates are starting to come back up. This means loans are more expensive, which means there's less cash available. It also means there's less money in the stock market.
Less cash on hand and lower stock value makes businesses want to cut costs, and people are very expensive, particularly in the tech sector.
Additionally, commercial real estate is running into major problems: people don't want or need to work in offices.
This means the contracts are being allowed to expire, and less money for the large companies that own the properties.A lot of money is invested in these companies. Anticipation of them doing badly makes companies fear an economic downturn.
So with less money available, less tolerance for risk in the stock market, and a fear of a significant economic upset, companies are looking to cut expenses, and people hired because cash was cheap and risk was okay are easy to justify cutting.
They ideally would like to let go of people they can do without, keep their stock price high, and when the market bottoms out spend the cash they can justify with their high price to buy viable companies at a discount.
Thank you!
The industry is experiencing historic shrinkage post COVID due to unsustainable growth during COVID.
Startups need a lot of capital flowing in because they don’t turn a profit early on. Traditional smaller businesses usually don’t have this sort of funding because the reward is lower. With tech, there’s a strong chance that company could become public or could get bought out. Or it could stay private and eventually become profitable. Regardless, they need investments made so they can continue to operate to eventually deliver a valuable product that will possibly offer significant returns to the investors.
The pandemic happened, which led to several outcomes. For one, a lot of boomers retired. Boomers were earning a lot of money. Then they stopped earning money and started dipping into their savings. This had a strong reaction. Capital became more scarce. Don’t believe me? Look at what banks are paying for 12-month CDs and the interest rates in savings accounts. It’s insanely high compared to two or three years ago.
This trend likely won’t last forever. Gen Xers and millennials have been moving into vacated roles by the boomers and are now earning more than before. They’re able to generate excess capital that investors can use to fund startups. There’s no shortage of innovative ideas in the western world, but there is a shortage of capital.
Not every county in the west is going to recover the same way. The boomer generation is the largest generation in history. Not every country kept having kids at a relatively similar pace. Typically, developing countries have much higher population growth. As countries industrialize, we see certain trends like both men and women joining the workforce and people moving to the cities for work. People generally have fewer kids with these trends as they are more focused on their careers and have less room to raise them. Nobody wants to raise a child in a one-bed apartment!
The United States is one of the rare exceptions. With a trend of consistent domestic population growth and immigration, the U.S. has avoided the fallout from rapid industrialization. Because of that, we’re seeing some interesting trends:
-
Under Biden, the post-pandemic POTUS, the U.S. has entered a prolonged period of rapid onshoring of manufacturing jobs. The addition of factories, distribution centers, and more have been increasing exponentially.
-
Germany, Italy, South Korea, Japan, and other similar economies have seen the impacts of a shrinking younger population and a ballooning senior population. These nations will likely keep the design of their products onshore, but will send manufacturing offshore. The U.S. and Mexico are the biggest winners here, but Mexico is at a disadvantage compared to the U.S. due to a greater difficultly in maintaining infrastructure.
-
Emerging technologies make the production of goods in the U.S. more feasible. Advancements in AI, robotics, and renewable energy will make production in the U.S. more logical despite the higher wages its workers command because less workers will be needed, or other savings in the realm of security, stability, and access to transportation infrastructure offset that factor.
There will not only be excess capital generation in the U.S., but there will also be excess capital flowing into the U.S. It’s also not to say that tech jobs will never recover outside of the U.S., but the reality is that we are in a capital shortage for a specific, acute reason. Less people of working age able to not only fill the vacated roles left by boomers, but also difficultly in paying the pensions and benefits offered to retirees. This will dry up even more capital in those particular nations.
Tech jobs have always been finicky. That won’t change going forward. But if you’re in the U.S., there’s a strong chance you’ll see things bounce back quicker than they will in other countries.
Wow, thanks for such a thorough answer!
-
The Silicon Valley companies massively over hired.
Using twitter as an example, they used to publicly disclose every site and their entire tech stack.
I have to write proposals and estimates and when Elon decided to axe half the company of 8000 I was curious..
I assigned the biggest functional team I could (e.g. just create units of 10 and plan for 2 teams to compete on everything). I assumed a full 20 person IT department at every site, etc.. Then I added 20% to my total and then 20% again for management.
I came up with an organisation of ~1200, Twitter was at 8000.
I had excluded content moderators and ad sellers because I had no experience in estimating that but it gives a idea of the problem.
I think the idea was to deny competition people but in reality that kind of staff bloat will hurt the big companies
While you’re right that many tech companies overhired, they overhired into an increasing market. Multiple companies, including Twitter, then over-fired and ended up trying to get employees to boomerang or otherwise hire into positions that they cut. Other companies, like Apple, expanded but did not overhire, and as a result have not done mass layoffs.
I also have no idea how you come up with a 20 person IT department at every site when internet services companies live and breathe on IT services. Everything from data centers costing tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to making sure devs can commit code and that backups get made takes IT services. I’m not sure what industry you’re in but you’re vastly under-budgeting and setting yourself up for failure, exactly the same way Elon is doing. Elon managed to crash twitter’s valuation by a whopping 90% inside of a year. If the cuts he made were justified, the line would have gone in the other direction.
Content moderators and ad sellers are literally the entire point of having a company like Twitter. Curation is the product, and the ad buyers - not the users - are the ones paying the bills.
So, yes - companies hired because they needed to hit production targets during Covid that were not sustained by continued market levels post-pandemic. That’s always going to result in cuts.
But a lot of what we’re seeing right now is upper management/c-suite types seeing how close they can cut costs to the bone without it hitting the quarterlies as production falls off and reliability tanks, and just hoping to make it out the door before that happens.
And seeing what mass copyright infringement corporation OpenAI just dropped we can expect it to be a million more by the end of the year.
So you are telling me that there is now 300,000 tech workers now able to focus on open source projects to keep their foot in the coding door while they drive forklifts or serve McDonald while waiting on the AI hiring bots to read their resumes?
Problem being, because big tech money has so distorted the economies of the cities it's clustered in, many of these people can only choose between finding another tech job ASAP, moving away from their industry to a lower cost metro with limited job opportunities, or imminent homelessness. Driving a forklift won't pay the rent, and commercial real estate is so absurdly priced that there may not even be a restaurant to wait tables at.