ITT: A bunch of non-vegans complaining that content posted to a vegan community makes them uncomfortable.
Also ITT: A bunch of people who haven't been convinced to go vegan asserting how to convince people to go vegan. Not them, but other people of course.
For the second group, I always like to ask "Why should I use your argument to convince people when it didn't convince you?"
I know I'm going to piss off every single group with this unpopular opinion, but I view veganism/vegetarianism and religion similarly.
Both of them come with benefits and downsides. The extent of these benefits and downsides differ from person to person. There's no "right" answer, talking about your choice is perfectly fine and I don't really care what you do either way, but I don't like it when you try too hard to convert me.
People that want to convert you to their religion are usually concerned about YOU (saving your soul, etc.), so it's reasonable that it's YOUR choice to decline. The only concern is about your own well being.
People that want to convert you to veganism, on the other hand, are only concerned about the animals you're exploiting - it has nothing to do with you personally. Your choice to decline means you're condemning hundreds of animals to die every year for the rest of your life. This is a hard pill to swallow for animal sympathizers, so you must understand why arguments by vegans tend to be quite passionate.
But the two really aren't similar, other than the fact that they both make you uncomfortable.
What are your reasons for comparing veganism to religion? Aside from having a strong opinion I see no real similarities. To me it feels like non vegans want this comparison to be valid to be able to make it about personal choice when it really is about respecting others.
Also the "there is no right answer" argument is always in favor of the status quo which is factory farming animals. Is that really something you want to preserve?
Do you hold any strong ethical beliefs at all? Would you also say they are religious? Would you also say that it is up to each individual to decide what is right for them and we should respect that and not push too hard?
Not vegan, but I can definitely agree factory farms are vastly underregulated
Economic forces are always going to welfare wash and treat these poor sentient beings solely based on the bottom line instead of their actual wellbeing. Please don't increase demand for their childrens and grandchildrens suffering.
I've seen the video i have worked on farms it doesnt bother me terribly
I find it hard to understand the disconnect you must experience.
Its human nature to dissociate. You have different moral meters for different situations. I still think its important that these animals live and die in a comfortable environment but banning meat is not a solution.
I watched some pretty terrible films. Watching those did make me cut down on meat and milk, and it made me try to source my animal products from more ethical sources. I still haven't been able to make the full commitment to veganism or vegetarianism, though, unfortunately.
That being said, I do wish these kinda of films were shown in schools. It would make most people more conscious of the cruelty and harm caused by these industries, and maybe there would be more push to move to more ethical ways of doing things in the meat and dairy industries.
ethical rape. ethical murder. ethical looking the other way.
I spent years chasing my tail trying to be an "ethical" consumer of intelligent creatures. Each time realizing, fuck, I've been lying to myself, complicit in my own brainwashing. There's no such thing as the ethical consumption of intelligent creatures.
I think it's important to be aware of the process of everything we consume, that way we can influence the impact our habits have.
I feel like that sign is a bit alienating, which is unfortunate because it perpetuates the idea that vegans are holier than thou. As a person that (i think) understands the basic reasoning behind veganism (intentional non-participation in animal exploitation and cruelty?) i wish that more people would consider it. Hey, maybe that should be a sign
People have been saying that for decades. It doesn't work. I never understood the concept of "protests shouldn't make me feel uncomfortable or inconvenience me." That kind of undercuts the purpose of a protest and trying to spread a message. If you make it so it's easy to ignore, it doesn't work. Without fail there's always the "ugh, someone who tries to make me feel bad about torturing and killing animals is simply not going to convince me to do otherwise." It's such a shitty excuse.
Are you aware of the backfire effect? https://effectiviology.com/backfire-effect-facts-dont-change-minds/
You are failing then. Because most people are barely getting by and having holier than thou people trying to belittle them just means they are going to view the movement as a bunch of self righteous tools.
Yeah, I can see how being an unrepentant dildo is really winning people over to the cause!
The excuses are always weak because no is trying to convince you or even themselves. They're politely telling you to fuck off because your type is known for being confrontational and they don't want to be dragged into an argument.
You're trying to tell people to cut off the majority of their food supply. That's an idea that is frankly absurd for most people and it's a little annoying that egoactivist vegans haven't taken the hint.
This is something that I often think about in connection with veganism.
I can sit down and watch a video about how vegetables are produced. It might be boring, but I could watch it.
Most carnists, on the other hand, can't sit and watch how hamburger, sausage, cheese, etc. is produced. For them to enjoy that food, they have to ignore all the suffering behind it.
I don't think many people are bothered by cheese making videos, the basic gist is dumping enzymes into milk to separate the water from the fat, then the fatty components are sometimes aged to develop flavor. The enzymes are produced by bacteria these days, so it's not like it involves a gory butchering step.
Or maybe getting people uncomfortable and forced to think about it, and actively face the dissonance is effective. Maybe they get mad and confrontational, but then you have to ask why.
Why are you doing something whose moral implications are making you uncomfortable?
Same thing goes for shit like buying stuff made by people in horrible working conditions. Maybe we shouldn't feel as if we are entitled to being comfortable all the time, especially when we do so at the expense of others. What if it was you in the place of the worker or animal? Are you okay with continuing on like this?
And it makes people uncomfortable because it makes them see themselves as a bad person. But hey, maybe you should feel uncomfortable if you are doing something you yourself consider bad.
Isn't "I'm for the intentional non-participation in animal exploitation and cruelty" just a consequence of "I saw the videos you refuse to watch", hence similarly alienating and holier than thou?
Maybe even more so. "I can't continue because I saw a video" could be an unreflected emotional statement, whereas yours sounds like a moral argument.
I mean vegans are welcome to be vegan. If you want you can mention these things if you think they might matter to someone but in the end what is important to a vegan isn't going to be important to other people and that's fine. In the end suffering is life and we all are made to suffer so that someone else can exploit us. The only difference with meat is that it's nutritious and something our body makes good use of. Humans on the other hand are exploited so that the privileged can continue to be privileged.
I didn't even watch the videos. I just saw a video of someone's pet cow who was curled up in a little girl's lap getting a scratch after having been snuck into the porch by the kid, and that was enough. One day the light just goes on.
To be fair, I feel like there's a lot of videos that would traumatize you if you watched them, not just ones related to meat. Sure there's traumatizing videos you should watch, but actively seeking that stuff out seems like no way to live.
Ok, but it's about something people actively and blindly participate and fund. Not just folks watching traumatizing videos for fun.
Everyone is like "Yeah I know it's bad." But they still actively refuse to acknowledge just how bad it really is.
I feel like many have detached themselves way too much to what the realities of life are. We should be watching people and animals die because we are now so sheltered from things that we were born into as a species, that every animal other than us experience we have become sensitized to it. Trauma and violence are part of being a living being and I think it has distorted our perspective and appreciation for living. You won't see many people who deal with daily violence commit suicide because they're in survival mode which should be the norm for anything that is living. It changes your baseline for thise experiences. Lows might be very low but tolerable and highs will be extreme because something as mundane as a day without having to chase down a deer and almost get killed by a lion is going to be the most exhilarating day of your life. Veganism is the result of our easy low risk existence and it makes us less adventurous and a lot less likely to make it into space. Space vegans will never be a thing.
If I was actively funding the abhorrent things in those videos, you'd be well within your right to tell me to stop, or at the very least insist I watch them.
If this sign were true I’d be a vegan 10 times over.
I’ve watched all vegan propaganda I’ve ever had sent to me:
Dominion. Earthling. Land of hope and Glory. The greatest speech ever (Gary Yourofsky) Cowspiracy Seaspiracy Don’t watch
Send me more I’ll view it.
This type of propaganda, in my experience, works on impulsive highly emotional people who willingly anthropomorphise animals.
A major diet change like becoming vegan shouldn’t happen because you saw one video. That’s a health disaster waiting to happen.
A vegan view requires no amount of anthropomorphizing. It's the traits that humans share with non human animals that makes what we do to them unjust. The traits that make us different are not required, and neither do they justify our treatment of animals.
Emotionally resonating with animals also does not require anthropomorphization. Empathy and sympathy between humans and non human animals is default in most people because of our shared experiences. A lack of is a sign of, at the very least, selective sociopathy, like the kind soldiers might be trained to have in regards to enemy combatants.
Veganism also is not a diet, I think that's important to say. And veganism doesn't create health disasters out of thin air. There's a plethora of nutritional studies backing up how eating with vegan restrictions can be more than adequate.
All true, but shock value anti-carnism of course plays on anthropomorphism, which is heavily baked into our culture with kids TV overwhelmingly featuring anthropomorphised animal characters and pet ownership being widespread.
I mean it's fine to point out that apparent hypocrisy, as the billboard campaign (where do you draw the line) in my country recently did. But it's not particularly persuasive from a logical perspective, just a useful cultural lever.
I disagree.
An example; Vegans won’t eat honey. There are various reasons why not, but one I have heard is that they disagree with the ‘exploitation’ of the bees.
Exploitation is, as far as we know, a human concept that bees have no comprehension of. How can you argue an insect is being exploited without anthropomorphising it?
Are you honestly arguing the bee is aware of its exploitation? Or are you extending your own feelings to that bee as if you were in the bee’s position?
Describing vegans as making major dietary changes because they "saw one video" is a pretty dishonest interpretation. Rigorously sticking to a vegan diet can be fairly difficult, and requires you to be very aware of exactly what you're eating -- including innocuous seeming things like food dyes and white sugar, which can often be made of animal products. To me, that doesn't read as impulsive, but instead disciplined.
Furthermore, while the decision to switch to going vegan could theoretically sometimes be done on impulse, one still has to make the decision every single day. It's not just a decision you make and it's done, it's one you must always choose to continue to make. A vegan has to decide to continue to be vegan every day, likely while under scrutiny of themself and others.
I’ll grant you I said video, singular. I would have been more correct saying videos because that’s what the person holding the sign in the picture thinks is the case.
They are implying pretty clearly they are vegan because they watched vegan propaganda videos.
Again, I’m NOT making the argument that if you watch a vegan propaganda video or videos you’ll become vegan, you’re disagreeing with the person in the picture.
What had the biggest impact on me was videos of pigs and cows being cute and dog like. Nothing else changed my view like a cow hopping around like a happy idiot.
(I'm not vegan but I eat pescatarian now and feel myself on the way to a bit more)
I've seen only a few you listed like cowspiracy and seaspiracy and a majority of those two films were just facts and diagrams and interviews. So I call bullshit. I know this is a bad faith attempt I mean seriously, "impulsive highly emotional person"? Maybe people who care for the environment see the facts and diagrams and convert because it isn't possible to feed this many people sustainably. It's not a health disaster to be vegan either, that's ridiculous of you to say. This won't shock you because you came here to troll but vegans can go through pregnancy just fine, breast feed just fine too, something that shouldn't be possible if it was such a health disaster. A lot of our food is already fortified with vitamins so you don't need meat for b12 or iron, just eat a bowl of cereal with soy milk. I'm in the process of going vegan so not 100% but I'm so tired of seeing trolls come to vegan communities to talk about how much they don't care about animals or the planet. And how manly and fulfilled it makes them feel to eat bacon. We get it, you're boring and have nothing new to say.
I have no doubt you wanting to become vegan comes from a genuine place and you’re trying to do the right thing.
I respect your choice and I hope it works for you.
If at some point in the future though you decide you no longer wish to be vegan I’d respect that choice as well and I don’t think it would make you a bad person.
as a little kid i saw the slaughterhouse videos PETA would put into flash games. still eat meat to this day
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of adult meat eaters have seen multiple videos and still continue to eat meat. Very few have actionable ability to directly stop the suffering so they then stop caring. One person cutting down on red meat will never be enough until there's enough lab grown meat and/or delicious FakeMeat alternatives to satiate western society at large. We still a long ways away from that.
Until then, vote for people who want to cut down on brutal industrial practices.
It is very actionable to vote with their wallet and mouth and not eat meat. The "can't save them all, so why bother"-argument is really sad. I don't think most people would apply that logic, if they saw a child in distress, because so many children die every day of preventable causes. Every sentient being matter.
One person cutting down on red meat will never be enough
You could use that argument to invalidate voting or any boycott. "Why should I vote? My one vote won't change anything." The truth is, you aren't one person. There are many vegans.
But even one person can do quite a bit. I've influenced my friends to eat less meat. When we go out to eat, if they want to include me, we'll go to s vegan-friendly restaurant.
You could use that argument to invalidate voting or any boycott
The difference being that there will never be enough vegans to change large-AG practices until the reasons I've stated above. There is a non-zero hit to their bottom line, sure, but Veganism will never be mainstream until healthy and tasty alternatives to meat is viable, tasty, and cheap.
The perpetual shift to healthier lifestyles through lab grown and alternative meats are an inevitability for any prospering/utopian civilization. The technology and culture to get there requires A LOT though.
Man the comment section here is so fucking wild.
More than i would have expected honestly.
I've seen those videos, a lot of them. I still choose to eat meat. I totally disagree with the implication that anyone who eats meat is being willfully ignorant of evidence that would convert them.
I think it's worse to admit that you're fine with inflicting that kind of pain on animals and still enjoy the end result. There's a reason they tell parents to be wary of kids who enjoy torture. You're just a step below that.
Holy shit, you are so delusional and full of yourself. You sound like prepubescent teenagers on Xbox Live that call people "pathetic" every chance they get. 💀💀 Get over yourself.
So then why do you eat meat? Are you just a selfish narcissist who thinks their pleasure is more important than anything else? Or what is it?
Because scientific evidence hates you.
Scientific evidence is unbiased, you hate them.
Of course I'm not a 'selfish narcissicist who thinks their pleasure is more important than anything else', that's total hyperbole (and the fact you exaggerated the fuck out of something doesn't make anyone think you're more intelligent or your point holds more weight).
I will answer you, but my reasoning really doesn't matter. For me its a combination of the lack of impact I as an individual consumer can have on that industry, and the negative affects veganism can take on your nutrition.
Also, there is ZERO scientific evidence that humans should not eat meat. Unless you're trying to say those videos are "scientific evidence" that I should be vegan, in which case I think you have psychosis.
Dude, i was there.
Locking this thread as it lost any usefulness and it's getting popular among edgelord kids
Weirdest thing to me about this comments section is that I realised I might like Hexbears
sadly true..
"X stance, 'cause I'm smarter than you"
I think you misunderstood the sign. What does intelligence have to do with this?
Did you just criticize.. having a stance on things? Like the whole concept of believing things are true?
I actually don't have a bone to pick with not living in a state of constant uncertainty about everything.
Its just one could put literally any position at the top of the sign and be just as insufferable.
I think we shoulf reduce meat production and make laws so millions of animals dont het abused every day and i aldo saw the videos but i just like meat so i dont think that everyone becoming a vegan would be a good solution. I of course 100% support if someone makes the decision themself. If a meat substitute is found that tastes like meat and solves meats flaws then i would happily switch.
"I just like meat" is a weird point to make I feel. From a moral standpoint, if you feel it is wrong, it shouldn't matter wether or not you like the meat (I too remember meat fondly from when I was still eating it). I'll twist your word into an extreme to illustrate my point, imagine reading this:
"I agree that raping children should be stopped, but I just like children, I don't think that every one should stop, we should just reduce how much we do it".
It probably sound like it's completely ridiculous, but for someone that believe that it is morally wrong to kill and eat animals, this is kinda how you sound.
I'm ok with people not being morally aligned with me, but when they are not consistent in their viewpoint, I can't help but think they are just rationalising their behavior to ease their mind.
So every omnivore and carnivore is a child molester? It doesnt work in this way. You need the nutrients from meat. Thats why its do hard to make a meat substitute.
I'd be happy if people would just proofread before submitting.
Eh I can't give up cheese
But killing cows does suck, they're cool. Like big cowy dogs.
I'm drunk, I apologize.
But also life is just random coincidence and we're probably the only place it exists and it seems like everything is out to get everything else already. Fuckers can't eat me, I'll eat them. I'm coming for you, flesh eating bacteria. I have teeth. They're real creepy. Like bones in my face made to chew things. FACE BONES.
I mean I've seen the videos. It's no worse than what I've seen in nature shows. Earth is a violent beautifully bloody place. There is nothing more abundant than the slow tearing of flesh for nourishment as the unfortunate prey suffer their last breath. It's impersonal and necessary. I like animals and treat any animal I encounter with kindness and that's not mutually exclusive to embracing the raw animalistic instinct in us that makes us formidable hunters and incredible at processing a carcass to its maximum utility. If i didnt have access to farmed meat i would not think twice about hunting that same animal. Humanity has figured out ways to use the bones, the collagen, the hide and organs of an animal and fully appreciate these gifts. While we definitely can make improvements on how to raise and harvest I am not ashamed of the fact that humanity has had the ingenuity to take control of our own nourishment and mass produce food that once used to be inaccessible to everyone but the wealthy. I have watched these videos and I've seen different slaughtering techniques. The sheep's purpose is to reproduce to feed other animals. They don't create or advance. They exist because other animals need to eat them. If we can feed ourselves without upsetting the natural balance I'm all for it. Humanity reproducing and spreading, building, changing the planet, rivers, swamps and other habitats is what is actually harmful to wildlife and yet these things continue to happen. We insist on reproducing and while I've seen plenty of hope with the advent of birth control and education, we still are a threat to biodiversity. Want to reduce meat consumption? Keep up the low birth rates! We can do it!
Paragraphs are amazing things
I'll stop eating meat when you convince every other omnivore on the planet to stop it. To pretend we are some how more more elevated than any other animal on the planet is arrogant. If we were were any better than a virus we would realise te are fucking ourselves over the need for the abstract concept of stock price go up.
I have seen how animals are killed hell caravan park I holidayed In as a kid was next door to an abattoir which I walked passed eating a burger.
I also grew up in the country helping my farmer friends on cow rearing farms.
Plants and mushrooms are living entities too with growing evidence that they too react and warn their kind when under stress pr attack. As we learn more about the plant and mycelium world the arguments fall apart.
Life cannot exist without death in the end all we can do is minimise the suffering. Something we can't seem to manage for our own species never mind others.
I say this as someone with mostly vegan wife and who where it doesn't suck will pick the non meat option.
E typo I'm sure I missed some
Animals in farms are usually treated horrendously, don't think we could torture plants at all really. That sign doesn't apply to hunting or humane farming practices, which is a much more ethical optiona that most farms
If that were true the sign would be for ethical sourcing which I agree with. We should punish all who don't out of existence not just cost of business fines.
On plants it's fascinating looking at what they have found. Sending chemical signals to warn others of their species about impending danger when attacked as 1 example.
Obviously there a long way to go before they can answer the question 1 way or the other. But it's not as clear cut as its as ethical as eating a rock like some make out.
pardon me while I fry up some bacon
While I watch those videos
So, where does that put children of migrant workers on your tiered morality list? Their parents pick your vegetables, and often so do they instead of going to school (if they even have school as an option). I'm genuinely curious.
edit: Ah, yes, the silent outrage of drive-by downvoting rather than making the effort to engage in mature discourse. Color me surprised.
You're trying to draw a moral equivalence between being a migrant farm worker and being tortured, raped, and killed. I'm genuinely at a loss for words.
I was asking a sincere question, to be frank, but I can see that's not welcome among your peers here. If I was drawing any moral equivalence though, it would be between said "migrant farm worker" 's inability to provide for their very human child in any way that resembles stability much less any chance to escape the exploitive cycle of our system and an animal "being tortured" "and killed". (I'm not aware of any food product that first rapes the animals, fyi.)
Animals eat food, too. If you eat meat, you're actually creating more demand for crops than you would if you ate the crops directly. Furthermore, migrant workers also work on animal farms, in slaughterhouses, etc. I hear it's not always great.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'm fairly sure that going vegan helps both animals and the children of migrant workers.
One caveat is that I'm assuming you'd eat the same classes of crops that an animal would, namely things like corn and grains. But honestly that sounds about right for most people, vegans included. Many vegans eat a lot of processed shit too lol. (me included)
Edit: I should add that the most commonly suggested vegan diet that I've heard from other vegans is to have rice and lentils as your staple foods. I'm fairly sure those aren't typically harvested by hand, but I could be wrong.
Man, you vegans are fuckin wild passionate about this shit huh. Well I'm going to go kill and dress a rabbit.
What did you expect in /c/vegan? Do you go to /c/cats and complain when people agree cats are cute?
Why shouldn't a community be passionate about their very core topic?
Rabbits are not endangered, in fact they are insanely invasive in many areas, and lead to the destabilization of ecosystems.
Thank you for doing your part!
And they're delicious!
"I stopped being human, because I saw the videos on liveleak you refuse to watch"
What happens If you later see a video of a someone eating a hamburger?
