Onboarding experience needs to be simpler for mass adoption
Onboarding experience needs to be simpler for mass adoption
If the fediverse is to be adopted by the masses, the onboarding experience needs to change. A new user can't be presented with a choice of instances as part of signing up or at least the process of making the choice needs to dumbed down a lot. I don't know how or if this can be solved, I just know as someone involved in app development and UX that the current experience won't work.
My mother would not know how to handle this paragraph: "Lemmy.world is one node in a network of hundreds of Lemmy instances. Before you sign up here, take a moment to explore all the instances at https://lemmyverse.net. You may find an instance with a regional or topical emphasis that speaks to you! Don’t worry about being left out; Lemmy instances are interconnected so users from each instance can participate with communities on other instances."
For mass adoption it needs to be so simple that even non-techie older people can get through it without feeling like they might be doing something wrong.
I think everyone agrees that the fediverse experience is highly different from the centralized experience, but I disagree that the fediverse must necessarily hide what it is and reproduce such a centralized system.
We've been fed the lie that tech is "easy" when it isn't at all, but that is not a problem. Driving a 2 tons box around at hundreds of km/h takes some skill, some time to learn, but we don't consider it too hard and skippable. I think we should put our efforts into simplifying the explanations, showing what it brings and what you lose, if we want more people to join (and I do)
We just need good defaults.
Sure driving a 2 ton box around takes skill, but we should still make it as easy and smooth ride as possible. Add Power Steering, Climate Control, ABS, Navigation, a Radio etc.
We shouldn't give people a shitbox and expect them to enjoy driving it, especially when they're used to better.
If we don't fix our bad UX, we're going to filter out all non tech savvy people, and create a bubble.
Good tech is easy an intuitive. Computers got popular after you could use a mouse and got a gui. Ipods dominated over the competition because of how dumb easy it was to use. Reddit was easy to move to from Digg because it was pretty much a clone in how it worked. Zero learning curve.
Popular tech is almost always easy.
Honestly to a certain extent I think being decentralized is somewhat beneficial. Perhaps it's just the fact I've been visiting forums for like 20 years and feeling jaded, but I never liked that any knuckle dragger could easily make an account and act like an ass.
It's not a very high bar to clear to figure out how to sign up for lemmy, so if you can't even figure that out, maybe it's for the best to help prevent polluting the user pool. If you're gonna be an ass, you should at least have to work for it.
Being decentralized and there being a significantly higher bar of entry aren't intrinsically linked. The only things easier about Reddit compared to a phpBB forum are that Reddit a) generates you a username, and b) has a mobile app that only works with reddit.com. Name generators can be included in the signup process, but we can't really drop having to point an app at a particular website in a distributed model.
The fact that "Lemmy" isn't a website or a single, definable place on the Internet is where the friction comes from. You can point to Reddit, and say you "saw x, y, and z on Reddit this morning" and it be a meaningful statement. You can't substitute "Lemmy" into that sentence, though, because there isn't a Lemmy.
There's a thousand Lemmys.
This account is new, but I trust it.
Thanks ! I'm active on the fediverse under other accounts, but I wanted to try the piefed experience as The Devs intended
That’s why I when I recommend the threadiverse (aka. lemmy or piefed or Mbin) to people I just send a link to an instance I think they’ll like. Instead of explaining the whole thing. If they join the instance with time federation will start to make sense to them and they might migrate later on.
This.
There are rough edges to the actual onboarding experience, of course, but the joinlemmy and joinmastodon and joinwahtever websites really aren't a part of it. They're more of an ad for admins, demonstrating that there's an active network of sites already using the product. The fact that not even the product develoeprs seem to understand this is a real issue, though.
Honestly, we need to stop sending people to "Lemmy" or "Mastodon" or whatever. Those are website engines. It's like sending someone to "WordPress" when you want them to read your blog.
I look at it this way. If my grandparent asks me how to do “the email”, I’m not going to explain to them how they could choose protonmail or nextcloud or whatever. I’m just going to choose and send the one I think is easiest for them to set up.
I'm pretty techie and I've been here for months. I still don't fully understand why it matters and how a different instance would have changed my experience. The fediverse is so fragmented, it would be dumb to stick to one instance. My app is always set to browse "all". Everyone commenting seems to be from different instances. I'm certainly not going to start reading about different instances at signup when it presents the fact that you will be able to access all instances anyway. I picked randomly from one of the most popular choices. This whole process of a selection of an instance sounded good to software engineers, and sure this is how the technology fits together.....but these are "back end" issues that I (and other normies) don't care about at all. Users do not want to get into the weeds of how the back end works and it is certainly off putting.
Different instances that have a unique interest or theme will determine the type and feel of content in your local feed, and can have a tangible community as you recognize names from your instance. That's the main difference.
Makes sense once there's enough of a userbase....but currently there isn't a huge amount of content of interest on Lemmy and sticking to a local instance just limits this even more. Currently I have to stick to "all" as even areas of subscription can run out of content with a quick scroll session.
You're welcome to improve the text. That said the site is in large part aimed at instance admins and technical people. For normal users it's better to link them directly to a specific instance.
If people can’t understand what federation is then just send them directly to .world or lemm.ee or another big instance. If they have common sense then send them to join-lemmy and let them pick an instance. If someone is unable or unwilling to learn a very basic concept then they probably are not going to be a very good neighbor to have on the fediverse.
I agree that the discoverability of communities needs improvement. I think that most instances should add starter pack like features with the most popular communities for people to choose to subscribe to when onboarding new users.
In my opinion, finding the right and active communities to subscribe to is the biggest onboarding hurdle, not picking an instance. If picking an instance is a hurdle, that person wasn’t willing to try another site in the first place
lol not happening. Lemme just say it again: Lemmings are completely disconnected from reality. They can't fathom that some people can't or don't want to spend time figuring that out. They will argue for days that "it's not that hard" and people should just learn how to do it or stop being lazy or whatever before doing anything about it.
Edit: I hadn't even read the other comments in this thread before I typed this. There's someone literally saying they want to gatekeep the fediverse from people without tech knowledge.
It's the same with linux distros. One of the instances could get a critical mass of newbies but we will still have die-hards trying to gatekeep the entire fediverse.
Oh, I'm sure the Venn diagram between Lemmings and Linux users is a circle.
This keeps coming back from time to time. imo we need an instance or method to sandbox newbies.
My old comment:
A custom feed that allows new members to see a variety of the best that Lemmy has to offer would be a good start. Then, when they are comfortable with the platform and its dynamics, they can customise it further, or swap the newbie feed for their own custom filter (which practically would come down to community subscriptions, I suppose?)
Now instead of making this comment very long, I’ll put in an video game anology to make it a bit more digestible:
What we need is a tutorial area that showcases all the different things that the Lemmy endgame has to offer. Creating memes, sharing news, the art of shitposting, being a lurker, actual discussions vs just scrolling to see the funnies: all these things are enjoyed by different types of people, and before they can reclass and enjoy the wild open world of Lemmy, it would be good for them to get comfortable with the controls and settings in a relative safe space.
"Lemmy has 47k monthly active users
- https://discuss.online/ if you want a server located in the USA (content is still accessible from any server, the most difference latency)
- https://sopuli.xyz/ if you want a server located in the EU
- https://vger.app/settings/install if you want an app
Feel free if you have any questions"
- [email protected] / https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37336391 for the reasoning behind this comment
Edit: voyager link
Vger.app isn't an instance, it's an app.
I'm well aware, but it's the only one available on both platforms and looks better than the default UI on mobile
I actually usually point to https://vger.app/settings/install so that people have links to their versions
I think they should stick to the "email provider" analogy. Whole paragraph should be something like:
The only thing you need to start interacting with the Fediverse is an account with one of the many providers, just like with email! Providers are freely available across the globe: pick one that suits your location or interests best! You can start browsing the content of nearly the entire Fediverse from whatever provider you choose. Don't worry, you can always create an account with a different provider later.
You could add a sentence or two about where to find sensible defaults or link an article that explains the more subtle things.
I think the emphasis on instances (and not naming them the more familiar providers) hinders adoption.
That's a great analogy, but it's too big a barrier for many, most give up before picking a instance, we should set good defaults and then the users can figure it out once they are used to the platform.
Yes, very much in favor of sensible defaults for first timers. Most frontends/apps support multiple accounts anyway so changing/adding more later on really shouldn't be a problem
Never considered it like that, good analogy
The difference is that the email provider you chose won't make it so you can't send an email to your friends because your providers don't talk to one another.
Well, it's meant as an introductory paragraph. I think such a general paragraph should not go to those lengths since the vast majority won't be facing that issue. Most large instances that you would recommend for first timers are federated well enough that at least the civilised part of Lemmy is very accessible. I think that with:
- sensible defaults/suggestions
- easy to understand intro
- a help/link to a detailed article
you cover enough for users who can't be bothered, who want to be informed, and those who want to understand what's going on behind the scenes.
No, that's not true. The big email providers absolutely block smaller and personal hosts. There's a whole system of features and options you need to install and support in order to get through the door, thanks to spammers.
I think the replies in this thread are doing a good job making OP's point honestly 😓
They should just add an automatic joining option based by location for the
Lazy assnew users with the option to manually join any instances.I think this should be baked into client apps.
The popular email analogy works here too. When you are setting up a new phone, you get a default email client app that offers you to log in or sign up to the default email service. And usually user can choose to log in with their service if choice, for which they have to sign up in advance outside the client app.
Having a default Fediverse client on new phones is not happening anytime soon, but if someone's mother installs a client app from the store link sent to them by a family member, she can get similar default onboarding experience.
Default instance can be picked by geo location, or maybe the less used out of 3 most popular instances. Or even maybe an instance ran by the client app developers.
Voyager defaults to lemm.ee IIRC
Your mother would ask you what the hell an "instance" was and then think that picking one meant she couldn't look at posts from any others.
Do we want 'mass adoption'? and if so, why? and what would that look like, if we had it? how would we know that we had got it, and what good would the getting do us?
Whether or not we want mass adoption I can't say, but what we don't want is to have a filter that only tech savvy people get past.
We want all kinds of people on Lemmy, not just tech savvy people that push through the bad UX
What if instances could be tagged with their focus?
Then during an app user creation they could click a few "topics" and narrow down the choices to a much shorter list including member counts?
I disagree that we should do that.
Internet became a shit show the second everyone got a smartphone and the barrier to entry evaporated.
Needing to put in some effort to participate is a good filter for low effort people and their low effort worldviews.
Not all places went eternal September:
Some sites/apps had filters to hide low effort people.
Some had strict rules that were enforced, so even if you were clueless coming in, you would upskill fast while using it.
Some had a good onboarding course making upskilling a breeze.
It just isn't possible, and we should want to dumb down the introduction too much. The Fediverse is not a centralised medium, and to participate in it, its users should understand that, analogous to how you would instruct people before using motor vehicles. Some things are just essential and need to be taught. Not teaching the stuff doesn't make it disappear. If some people cannot get behind the idea, then either find novel, intuitive ways of conveying it, or just accept that they cannot be a part of the Fediverse.
I've seen people using Voyager for a year and not even knowing what their instance is. They seem content, vote, post just like on Reddit.
People can drive a car without knowing what type of engine it is. They turn the wheel, it turns.
This could be solved with a:
Can't make up your mind?
Click here to choose a random general topic instance. Don't worry, if you want to switch later you can.
They can't really switch later, though. At least, all of their submissions and comments stay at the old account
Who gets to decide which instances match that description? Everyone will come up with a slightly different list.
If what instance you chose truly didn't matter this wouldn't be as big of an issue. Unfortunately defederation causes a tangled mess of netsplits.
Indeed, I see people saying "we should just randomly assign an instance from the top 10", when hexbear (RIP) was in the top 5
Also top 10 ( https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list )
- LW
- lemm.ee
- lemmynsfw.com - not suitable
- sh.itjust.work - shit in the name, not appealing to the average user
- lemmy.ml - power tripping https://feddit.uk/post/12952230
- lemmy.dbzer0.com - requires to follow and agree the Anarchist code of Conduct - not appealing to the average user
- lemmy.ca - Canada-oriented, non-Canadian users might not want to join as they wouldn't think they would belong
- feddit.org - German-focused, https://feddit.org/c/main content is in German
- lemmy.blahaj.zone - queer-focused
- programming.dev - programmers-focused
I made a more complete analysis in this post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37336391 (pinned on [email protected] ), nowadays I basically go with:
" Lemmy has 47k monthly active users
- https://discuss.online/ if you want a server located in the USA (content is still accessible from any server, the most difference latency)
- https://sopuli.xyz/ if you want a server located in the EU
- https://vger.app/settings/install if you want an app
Feel free if you have any questions"
Because yes, the USA/EU question appeared during the Luigi announcement in LW.
Decentralization is an essential element of the Fediverse.
I don't get how you would get around choosing a server. Maybe make the recommendation algorithm easier? Like, ask clearer questions, ask fewer questions?
I think there could at least be some kind of button or check box that says, "I don't need to know how the Fediverse works, just sign me up!" and it would randomly choose one of the big instances.
A part of the problem is that there are multiple similar general topic instances/sites to choose from. If there were more dissimilar, specific topic instances/sites it might help reduce the choice paralysis a little.
It might even better help highlight the perks of federation, as it would be easier to be like, "See, even though you're on cuteanimals.posts, you can still check out and comment on stuff besides cute animals if you want."
eh.
I'm not sure I'd like that. I kind of like there being a technological filter. It prevents the Fediverse from turning into Facebook or X. The public Internet has been around and part of society for 40 years now. If you still don't get it in 2025, that ain't everyone else's fault. People using the Internet in the 90s had to deal with way more than just figuring out what an "instance" is.
Unrelated but there's a word we Mexicans use that you should look up. It's "mamador". No particular reason.
Mass adoption did not end well for Earth.