KDE's New Distro: Btrfs-Based, Immutable Linux OS, with Flatpak and Snap

I vote to kill snap

I can’t believe they used this as a pro for their distro…
- I am currently only on Linux on my Steam Deck and I do have two RPi's (though I don't actively use them) so I don't have personal current knowledge of differences between Snap, Flatpak, and App Image beyond that A: Snap always brings up lots and lots of hate in comments and B: is from Canonical.
  
  But is it possible that they might choose to use Snap for having more program options due to Ubuntu being such a "mainstream" distro? I know lots and lots of programs do release Flatpaks, but are there more of them or does Snap have more? Real question since I am aware of how heated some threads get with folks being really "fuck Snap" or "it is fine." Mostly just curious since I am more and more likely to move my main PC to Linux as my main OS after Windows 10 is dead.
What is so hated about snaps? I’ll admit I haven’t used Ubuntu since they started using snaps, but I don’t understand the hate about them in the Linux community.
- The place to get snaps is proprietary and exclusive.

Snap? Can we not?

If it's only there like in KDE Neon, I'm fine with it. I don't want any of my distro apps to come as Snaps though.
Why? What's the issue with Snap? Is Flatpak any better?
- Yeah, Flatpak is far better. The most glaring issue: Canonical hosts the only Snap backend, you can't host it yourself. Flatpak on the other hand is fully open.
  
  Don't introduce proprietary crap just so companies can profit off of it.

I use Karch, btw.

Burn Snap out of there and I'm in.

Edit: looks like they're not putting much towards snaps, it's mostly Flatpak and systemd-sysext. I'm good with that.

I like that snap support is included. You can't easily add it to immutable distros and there is still some software out there only easily available via snaps.

This article is far too hypey. One dude has started this initiative and needs people to work on his concept to get it off the ground. I'm not opposed to a red-hat free immutable system, but this one is so far from maturity this article is selling a first drawing like an almost finished product. Remind me in two years how this went.

Harald, the main architect behind it is already running it as his daily driver. Many others (myself included) are already testing it in VMs and on spare hardware with only very minor papercut issues to be resolved.
- Sounds great! I'll have a look once the user infrastructure is in place.

The distro is designed to be a bulletproof, highly user-friendly operating system that showcases the best of KDE technology—a system that KDE can confidently recommend to casual users and hardware manufacturers.

So it looks like there will finally be a distribution that Windows, Mac, and ChromeOS users can jump to and just start using without having to learn much and with a much better and more familiar GUI than GNOME.

I think you're exactly right, honestly I think this has potential to be huge. Whether we like it or not, in order for a lot of mid-level savvy users to feel comfortable switching over they need a "default" option (like joining mastodon.social) to get their feet wet. A distro specifically built for KDE I think could appeal to a lot of people.

EDIT: Also for the people buying laptops in businesses and schools obv

Ooo damn that sounds exactly what I'd like to try.

On the other hand I feel like I'm too old for this shit. My system works fine, I understand everything, and things rarely break and never in an unrecoverable way.

I'm a bit the same but I tried the switching between versions and it's amazing.
The beauty/advantage of Linux Eco-system is one can pick and choose based on his/her preferences.

Maybe they'll fix the sddm custom theming? It's currently broken on all immutables and doesn't allow custom themes.

Yeah that's certainly annoying but still relying on SDDM to solve this. There is a movement to see if we can import SDDM into the KDE umbrella but it's a bit stalled at the moment.

Ingl, this sounds like exactly the thing I want. Immutability aside, this is how I use EndeavourOS right now, but more sophisticated.

I'm sold on it.

I use Fedora KDE but this one sounds like exactly what I need. I primarily use Linux for software dev and web browsing and Windows for gaming and Office.

Fedora Kinoite exists already. It's my daily driver for dev and gaming and works great for me.
- I use normal KDE because I don't know how much of a hassle it would be to put everything in containers and use flatpaks for everything.
- I wonder what the differences will be!

Snap WTF?

Alright I am installing this

I thought we all agreed that "immutable" is a confusing term and that we should call it "atomic"

edit: I was wrong

What does atomic mean in this sense? That seems more confusing than immutable.
- It means a change either applied completely and successfully, or not at all (think "atomic transactions" in databases).
- Atomic in software refers to an operation that cant be interrupted because it happens in one step. This one of the big selling points of atomic or immutable distros. Your system will not be left in a broken state by cancelling an update because updates do not take multiple steps, unlike traditional distros.
- How could you install anything or change any setting if it was truly immutable?
  
  Immutable OS makes sense in certain scenarios, but not in home computing.
I disagree, because they are not the same thing.

Immutable means read only root.

Atomic means that updates are done in a snapshotted manner somehow. It usually means that if an update fails, your system is not in a half working state, but instead will be reverted to the last working state, and that updates are all or nothing.

I create a btrfs snapshot before updates on my Arch Linux system. This is atomic, but not immutable.*

There is also "image based" which distros like ublue (immutable, atomic) are, but Nixos (also immutable and atomic) are not.

*only really before big updates tbh, but I know people do configure snapshits before all updates.
Who said that?
- Fedora has pushed for the change by rebranding their immutable distros as Fedora Atomic Desktops, and these are likely the most popular immutable distros. Bazzite's homepage also describes the distro as atomic, but never mentions the term immutable.
No? Why?
How is atomic less confusing? Immutable means that something doesn't change, atomic means that it's the size of an atom or has nuclear energy

EDIT: I've learned that some people are overly pedantic about the meaning and practical use of the word "immutable", so much so that they decided to create a bigger confusion by giving another word a completely different and exclusive meaning
- Atomic in software refers to an operation that cannot be interrupted, like the updates in these distros. Immutable is a more confusing term, as it leads users to believe that cannot control parts of the system, when in reality these distros still have tools to do so.
- It's not semantics, they are two different things.
  
  And to your edit... Are you upset that there are two different words that mean two different things? I don't understand.
  
  they decided to create a bigger confusion by giving another word a completely different and exclusive meaning
  
  Isn't this just how words work...?
- How could you install anything or change any setting if it "doesn't change" ?

Sounds like Kinoite with extra steps.

Same steps, different base, no customisation, upgrades on day 1 of release. Probably a few more things. I also ❤️ Kinoite so nothing against them.

Makes sense that it includes snap given that KDE officially supports their apps packaged as snaps, unlike Gnome.

If I recall correctly, aren’t they going for an Arch base? I assume they’re going to be enabling AppArmor so that the snap sandboxing is mostly working, except for the patches Canonical have failed to upstream so far.

Supporting both snaps and apparmor above selinux would be disappointing to me. Snaps more so, I at least get why AppArmor has supporters
Yes it is an Arch base. Not sure on the apparmor stuff and snap is basically banned from the Arch repos so it's relegated to the AUR which makes it a pain.

Will they be using btrfs snapshots or subvolumes to make it immutable?

Ehh to snaps. That would 100% be the first thing of support to drop if I were them. That said it cool to see more immutable distros experimenting, I wonder how much overlap there is the Kalpa since it is btfs based.

Honestly there definitely still seems some good space for innovation in the immutable space before we "figure it out", so the more smart people experimenting the better!

I am not an expert but I don't think Snap support can be added to an immutable distro after installation, meaning there is going to be some software that simply cannot be easily installed. Snap support is basically a legacy support feature at this point but I think it's nice to cover their bases if they are trying to make something for widespread adoption.

I found out about this yesterday when searching for the KDE sources to make some alterations to the lock screen. I guess this distro is not for me.

Hopefully the stable version will become a competitor to Linux Mint

Just curious because Distrowatch can be easily gamed; does anyone know how this might affect the linux consumer market? I'm using Mint and see no reason to switch to this. I used to nerd out about different distros but aside from the enterprise distros or Debian or Arch preferences I don't see why people are using smaller distros anymore. Hobbyist i guess?

mainly hobbyists or some very specific feature. For example antiX for old hardware or Spiral Linux for the better installer, gaming specific distros for gaming etc. Also there are protest distros which advertise not having something - usually SystemD.
Thanks for de-influencing me out of switching to KDE plasma, mint and ubuntu are the only distros I've tried and I've been thinking about trying something new

New users (like me) that aren't necessarily passionate about linux and just looking for a windows alternative can be easily persuaded early on
- Looks like there's still something you can try, brother.
- My switch to Linux started 1,5 years ago with Manjaro KDE - and since then, I am still a fan of KDE, which is kind of "Windows UI done right" for me. Ergonomic, configurable, consistent. I also find Pantheon, Enlightenment, and Budgie to be cool concepts, but from a practical side, KDE is a no-brainer for me.
  
  Mint comes with Cinnamon by default, and I guess that's what you're using. For me, Cinnamon is too old-fashioned, it's like you're back to at least Windows 7 timing. Some people like it, but for me it's just old and out of touch with the progress of UI's.
  
  GNOME used in Ubuntu is good with app theming (yay for adwaita!), it is unique and minimalistic, but its overall design is just...not for everyone, and customization is heavily tied to unsafe practice of plugins which has been exploited many, many times.
  
  With all that said, try everything out in a VM or something and see what's good for you. There are really no wrong choices!

I guess they are going the steamos route seeing as arch based.

Making a LFS distro already show you all the GNU mess! Why another distro?

Man, I almost want to say "I love it". Remove the "snap" and the "immutable" and I'm all in.
_Almost _there 🤏🏽

There's KDE Neon already. The whole point of this distribution is the atomic immutable part.
- Neon isn't arch based, which is why this one piqued my interest.
It's just Arch with Plasma then...
- That is being maintained by the kde team.
I don't understand why people want immutable. I don't know all that much about Linux but on my Steamdeck it keeps getting in the way anytime I try to do anything
- You certainly have to learn new ways of doing things when you want to tinker, but they are basically UNBREAKABLE, which is my main plus point. I'm busy, I need my PC to be reliable. I don't want to have to troubleshoot stuff just to keep it up and running.
  
  If I had more time I would really enjoy the tinkering, but I don't so I need my distro just work.
- I personally don’t tinker much with the OS. I want it to stay out of the way and let me do things. In the case of Bazzite, everything I need for gaming is just there and works without me lifting a finger.
  
  I like the safety and simplicity immutables bring.
  
  If I’m doing something out of the ordinary, a temporary container usually suffices.
  
  It’s really made the switch from Windows as a daily driver much easier.
- Some people like it, I don't like and will never mess with it. I do understand why some folks like it. It's basically for those who want a system that'll never break to a point where they can't access their data. I just can't use it
- Immutable is fantastic in theory. Where it falls apart is having to basically rebuild the whole distro every time you want to make a change. It should be there your base distro is immutable, then any extra changes go on an additional mutable layer but that would be difficult to set up. (You'd need a package manager like Nixos or something.)

Lame

No, Lame is for audio, this is a whole Linux distro