Next smartphone I buy, which one do you recommend?
Next smartphone I buy, which one do you recommend?
Things that make me angry about my current smartphone Samsung Galaxy S21Ultra on a Verizon plan is the mandatory software updates in which they install WITHOUT MY PERMISSION stupid apps like Netflix and addictive gambling games and stacking block games and Candy crush. God knows what else they install without my permission. I don't want any of it!
Next phone I buy I want to start with a clean slate, I'm not going to affiliate with any conglomerate like Verizon or AT&T or Sprint or T-Mobile etc, I prefer to go rogue somehow,
which smartphone do you recommend that has no bloatware and it's customizable?
The only recommendation I can provide is a Google Pixel device with GrapheneOS. Graphene is only designed to work on Pixels because they are (allegedly) the most secure mobile phone hardware-wise. Once you flash Graphene, it's up to you to install any apps beyond the basic browser (Vanadium), gallery, camera, caller, SMS, PDF viewer, contacts, file manager, and security/system apps. No Google involved without your permission, though you will have to install Google services, available via a Graphene mirror and sandboxed for privacy, IF you want to install an eSIM after flashing Graphene. If you're interested in further information, please let me know. I use it, love it, and am happy to provide any information you may need to decide if it's a good fit for you or not.
Not OP but interested in both privacy and high-tech features. My current (stock) pixel 4a device has a worse camera than many other phones, but the software compensates a lot, netting better picture quality overall very often. I'm wondering how much of that is lost when using graphene instead of stock android, do you know?
Similarly with the latest gen pixels having AI features built in, I'm assuming much of that is software that's not as easily installed somewhere else..
I'm not sure what the GrapheneOS stock camera app does under the hood, but if it's not enough for you, you have the option of installing Google's Pixel Camera app from the Play/Aurora store if you want to compare. I don't imagine it would require Google Play Services to run on devices older than 8 since they don't have the AI integration, but I could be wrong. You can easily deny the app network permissions to ensure that the app isn't sending your photos to Google. As far as the AI features go on newer devices, I could see those requiring Google Services installed to work, but again, they're available through a Graphene mirror, run sandboxed for privacy, and can be denied network permissions. I'm satisfied with how my pictures turn out (7 Pro), but I may try Pixel Camera out just to see what the difference is.
It's been a couple years since I tried the graphene camera, but (at the time) it's essentially trash in comparison to the Google camera. I just use the gCam without internet permissions and call it a day.
But I'm not hardcore tin-foil 'the NSA will use your office mirrors reflection to precisely heat up a 2mm space on the side of your phone that somehow enables Bluetooth and with that the G + glowy bois will exfiltrate your data at 10Kb/s'. I want additional security hardening and some privacy additions, but I also use the play services and store, like a typical user. Yada yada threat model yada yada - I just want my phone to simply function at the end of the day. Middle of the road, if you will, between stock os users and the guy that's now boarding up all his windows because of the 2mm Bluetooth mystery vulnerability.
Unknown about the claimed AI features - my 8 pro is in transit. But I can check in a few days, if interested.
What is the root scene on Graphene? I know the dev is pretty against it but I like having root access after being used to it. Is it possible to easily root it without any integrity issues later on?
It looks like the verified boot security feature of Graphene effectively prevents rooting the OS. I understand wanting root access, it does provide some nice features, but I don't have any need for it. I don't have any bloatware embedded to remove, and I don't need to mod any system apps, so I haven't looked into it much. I know the dev says it isn't planned because it massively increases attack surface, which I personally agree with, but it would be nice to have the option via a separate version of the OS or something. If you need root access, I would suggest looking into LineageOS. It's similar in privacy to Graphene and last I knew could be rooted. Graphene is very focused on security as well as privacy, and for me is a best of both worlds, but if you want to modify the system for various power-user type features, it might not be for you.
You can root on GrapheneOS. You do it exactly the same way you'd do it for the stock Google ROM:
- Have an unlocked bootloader. Yes, this means that it """defeats the purpose of GrapheneOS""", if the purpose of GrapheneOS isn't for you to avoid Google's privacy nightmare. I use GrapheneOS for privacy moreso than security, and not being able to block ads properly is irritating.
- Install the Magisk app.
- Extract the
boot.imgfrom the GrapheneOS image and patch within Magisk. - Flash the patched boot image in the bootloader.
The main annoyance with this is that you'll have to do that dance every month when a security patch gets released, but for me, it's better than vomiting from exposure to ads on mobile.
Another vote for fairphone here, but for reasons others failed to mention: replaceable battery, so even after 2 years, it can feel like new and keep most of its value (to resell if wanted); 5 years of updates + warranty; support for after market roms. Then there's also the fair ethics part of it
How are you killing your battery after two years?
Even my cheapshit Honor 9 lasted six before it started getting random shutoffs.
old phones have batteries that are meant to last
Not killing, but degrades in performance because batteries have a limited amount of charge cycles. The more intensive you use your phone, the faster the battery degrades
Google Pixel with GrapheneOS
Heads up, the bootloader cannot be unlocked if you buy a pixel through Verizon. You have to buy it straight from Google if you want to install anything custom.
Source: I have a pixel 6 pro from Verizon that I got originally thinking to try out grapheneOS.
You dont have to buy straight from Google, just literally from anywhere else than Verizon.
And if your bootloader is unlocked, VZ is likely to lock you out of VoLTE/HD Voice/WiFi calling/etc.
I mean, you could go to T-Mobile who don't currently play these specific games with devices, but then you're trading coverage for features/freedom.
All carriers, wired and wireless, need to be regulated as DUMB PIPES. Title 2 for everyone. That's what we're paying for: Not "the Verizon experience" or "the pride and accomplishment of being an AT&T customer." Let me buy a phone, and do with it whatever it is technologically capable of doing on your network. The network provider doesn't need to provide any Android/iOS tech support if they keep it simple and stay out of the customer-fuckery business.
Maybe a fair phone? https://shop.fairphone.com/fairphone-5
Short summary:
- no bloatware
- 5y waranty
- easily Repairable
- Planned to receive 5 android major version upgrades
Addition:
- several unsolved (hardware) issues in the past
- security patches are far too late
- 8 years support
- Using the promoted /e/ results in loss of support (you habe to flash back FairphoneOS). Maybe this has changed as they are sellig phones with preinstalled /e/ by themselves
- Screws in the FP4 where very low in quality
- above-average batterie drain
They really need to sponsor graphene to get it officially supported on fairphone. Cant recommend fairphone when you are stuck with google tracking everything you do on stock android.
I have a Xperia 1.
It has a flagship SoC, but it also has a SD card slot, a headphone jack, no notch or cutout, front firing stereo speakers and a nice blocky look without a massive camera bump.
The downside is software support can be a bit spotty and the cameras are made for manual use, as opposed to being AI-driven point-and-shoot things. That last one could be a positive depending on your preference, though.
But overall? I'm very satisfied, and I went there specifically because I was tired of the ongoing Apple-ification of Samsung in the first place. You may want to consider coming to the dark side and incentivizing Sony to keep making a phone with a feature set, instead of copy-pasting Apple's or Samsung's playbook.
Same boat here, I have the 5 II and I absolutely love it. Great size, the camera is OK on auto but can do wonders in manual mode (depending on your skill).
The lack of software support is a bummer though. I was surprised it's not in LineageOS' official support anymore...Do you use any custom ROM on your Xperia?
Nope. Honestly, I stopped tinkering with that stuff altogether ages ago. It's a candybar that gives me text messages and takes photos, I don't need to make it my own.
Google Pixel with GrapheneOS.
I keep seeing this idea everywhere. Buy a Google phone and install another OS.
It is completely absurd to fund the exact adversaries you are running away from, while consuming, without contributing a dime, merely a piece of free software. (It is only a small piece of freedom because none of the hardware is free, and some binary blobs [incl. potential backdoors] will still be present in the alternative OS no matter which one it is.)
This is unsustainable, terrible, damaging advice. Stop giving it.
The bottom line is that GrapheneOS is the most security-focused mobile operating system available, and the Google Pixel is pretty well the only mainstream phone with an unlockable bootloader.
If Alphabet were to ever lock down the Pixel's bootloader, the GOS devs would undoubtedly jump ship to a lesser available platform in order to continue the project. But until then, no other hardware comes close with respect to embedded security.
Buy a pixel off marketplace then. You can brag about saving e-waste.
Google isn't a bad company, just a product of poor regulation. They have amazing engineers and produce valuable hardware and that should be praised.
Its the business side of things which needs massive regulation and an ethics check.
Im going to do this and leave every social media except some federated instances.
Already went with Linux and FOSS years ago. Finally time to say good riddance to everything that doesnt align for what I stand for. I like it better anyway
No bloat? Stay away from Samsung then.
Just a tip, you can debloat your galaxy without rooting it with adb tools. You can remove any apps you want this way fairly easily.
Not a long term solution, and all the other comments are great options for replacement. Until then, you can remove almost anything you want until you're ready to switch.
The none root method that you mentioned is just removing the application from your profile. It's still present in the OS.
Google Pixel. I dont know I want to keep my 4a actually as its small, nice and has a headphone jack.
The 4a is end of life and shouldn't be used anymore.
I know the mantra
Personally waiting for the shiftphone 8. Fairphone 5 is also a possibility if you value ethics. These should be less bloated than most I believe. The pixel is nicer than most mainstream phones. As it just comes with the vendor who made Android and their proprietary bs instead of yet another layer. The best way to eliminate bloat is a custom rom. Pixel supports GrapheneOS and I believe all of them will be supported by CalyxOS. (They made a build for the newest released shiftphone)
Lots of good advice here, but many might be too extreme. I find such all-or-nothing approach intimidating for people who just started to think about improving their privacy situation.
Let's see... you are angry about bloatware. It can come from two sources - mobile service carrier and phone manufacturer. How to get rid of it?
- Buy only "unlocked" phones. Then the carrier will not be able to push anything to your phone. You will also be free to change the carrier as you wish.
- Buy phones from manufacturers that don't install too much bloatware. Google Pixel has only Google apps, Motorola also is almost vanilla Google. Fairphone is more exotic, but an interesting option. iPhone is OK too if you want Apple ecosystem, but customization is not a thing there.
Now, we are in a privacy focused community and I saw your later comments about Google being an opposite of privacy. I would argue that vanilla Pixel is much better than bloated and locked Samsung already. I see you get recommendations to replace the OS that your new phone might run, and these are valid, but come with significant downsides. There are other ways to improve your privacy stance by changing the way how you use your phone without changing what phone or what OS you run on it.
Warning about bringing an unlocked phone to Verizon (even if it's a current flagship Apple/Samsung/Google device): 50/50 they'll lock you out of WiFi calling/HD voice, etc. Because they're dicks.
Get a Pixel
Install grapheneos after
I also caved for a pixel (4a) for my last phone, it still has Google's bloatware (can't remove youtube music app for example), but at least it doesn't have Samsung's bloatware in addition.
Still interested where this thread goes in other options though, as it's getting worse in battery life and I'm also looking out for something new.
Flash a third party OS like Graphene/Lineage/DivestOS. No more bloat.
A Pixel is rootable, which would enable you to remove whatever you want. Though I prefer starting clean.
Will a pixel respect my wishes for them to not install game apps behind my back?
And how can I buy one without bloatware already loaded on it? When I bought this phone I had to delete so much bloatware.
Only buy the Pixel if you are going to install GrapheneOS on it. GrapheneOS is de-googled and has no bloat pre-installed.
Pixel is stock android and is guaranteed to not have bloat unless some carrier is involved in it. Whenever anyone here suggests pixel they are definitely doing it for custom ROM like grapheneos and its pointless to buy otherwise.
Just avoid carrier-branded phones. Those are often boot locked.
Do be careful, your choices are very limited. All the carriers in the US, except TMobile today, have a whitelist of devices. Even if you make your own phone or buy an awesome phone from out of market, it won't work.
Technically, there is no reason it won't work. But the carriers block it from registering on the network unless roaming. Our non-American devices have been kicked off every network now except TMobile.
So your choice is really just the small list of devices they choose to support and 75% are the same phone. Samsung whatever with some various sized screen and various sized storage. Or Apple iWhatever.
They make your life hell with a non-standard carrier phone. And yes I've been buying out of region phones for 20 years now, even back with Windows Mobile and Palm devices with 2G text based web. Every year it gets harder and harder.
Im using my imported Zenfone 9 on AT&T without (much) issue. I did have to change some settings using ADB/terminal as root to enable volte so i can make calls since the phone doesn't support all the bands used.
I'm happy with Motorola. I don't buy high end phones though, as I don't care about paying 400 extra for a good camera.
I have a G42
Motorola feels like the best in affordable phones. Plus stock rom experience.
Just picked up a new Motorola phone myself, and it does install TikTok and a few other apps by default, so not sure if OP would like that. They were easy enough to uninstall though.
You nay be able to disable the installer that reinstalls those apps.
Check out
I've got a g31 which I've had for about a year, and the only thing I don't really like about it is the lack of custom ROMs and stuff like that
"smartphone" doesn't matter. it is a computer that runs software. the only question is who controls that software? free/libre software is by definition one that you control. and what you described means that you dont control your device.
so advices: easy way is to just install lineage os or graphene or some other open source android version. you will control it. i dont advice to install google play services.
other advice: you can get a sony phone because it can run sailfish os. also i believe those are great. otherwise install open source android, lineage or something.
sailfish has android emulator (it costs money) but sailfish is not android. it is a linux/qt based system. very polished. not as polished as open source android, but it is fast, lightweight and beautiful. native sailfish apps arent feature rich but do you really need feature rich? then you can get more apps from fdroid store and use android emulation layer.
other, better but harder option: get a device which is well supported by postmarketos.
postmarketos has several user interfaces but neither of those is what you have used to. i believe it is the best option but you must prepare yourself to be able to change. most probably you wont have a working camera. thats ok, i live like that.
A Pixel with GrapheneOS is okay but you don't get Android Auto, which kinda sucks.
ooh no problem I despise android auto and glad it doesn't force my phone to connect every time I start driving the way it did at the beginning, I had to dig into the settings and figure out how to disable it.
Google Pixel or Nothing phone
Sure, the Nothing phone is a decent phone but it doesn't really have anything to offer as far as privacy and security are concerned. On the contrary, I wouldn't trust Nothing since their iMessage fiasco.
I've never heard of this company before the past week, and I'm seeing it everywhere now. I'm also really annoyed with this trend of companies appropriating random fucking words instead of using actual names.
Yeah the whole iMessage thing wasn't really what I cared about, given that it's not a great look for them.
More so all the ex-oneplus talent that they have on staff to make a good quality product.
Murena phones are basically Fairphone with /e/OS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki//e/_(operating_system) with IMHO compare to GrapheneOS.
Their privacy features are really good. It replace Google Services with an open source equivalent. Not sure I can deploy Google applications.
The result is a smartphone mostly degoogled, a good UX and you 'feel' the privacy features without being annoyed by them.
EDIT: changed "completely degoogled" to "mostly degoogled".
The Smartphone is not completely degoogled. Please check before posting such statements. It can not be compared to Graphene. Graphene is far ahead.
See: https://divestos.org/misc/e.txt for a list of issues
/e/ is very slow in terms of security updates and they rely on some google services.
The only point you can make: If you want it easy and you don't care about security and less google but not degoogled is okay for you, /e/ is your choice.
But please stay away from Fairphone. They have several hardware issues even in more than one generation (for example ghost inputs in 3 and 4) but they do not accept them and try to solve with software update which surprisingly did not work. And if you use /e/ you don't geht support from FP side.
Thank you for sharing your insights and valuable information. I appreciate the effort you put into your response. However, I sense a potential bias in your answer, particularly concerning the original question posed by the OP.
The OP was seeking advice on a smartphone without bloatware and with a high level of customizability, which I believe is the central focus of the discussion.
While I understand that security updates may be a concern for some users, it's worth noting that as of the October release notes (https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases/v1.16-s), the integration of security fixes extends up to September.
Regarding support, I recommended the Murena phone, which comes with /e/OS out of the box and is based on the Fairphone + /e/OS combination. It's important to clarify that Murena is a commercial French company, meaning that support comes from them rather than directly from Fairphone. However, this arrangement offers the benefit of commercial protection, including a 2-year warranty. I also feel a little bit unfair the comment about support, as I think that installing GrapheneOS on any device will probably cut you from support from hardware and you will rely one GrapheneOS, that I'm sure has a very good support, but doesn't have any obligation to replace the device is a problem occur.
I also want to express my gratitude for the link you provided (https://divestos.org/misc/e.txt). Additionally, based on my personal experience, none of the mentioned bugs have affected me. This could be attributed to my use of the F-Droid store, allowing me to benefit from updates available there as well.
Once again, thank you for your input, and I hope this further clarifies the points discussed. I know that I have a specific usage of my phone, but I think the value of my proposal remains.
Murena phones are basically Fairphone with /e/OS
One of the main features of Fairphones is that they are easily repairable - it doesn't look like Murena has done anything to make it easier to fix.
PInephone! A bit of work, requiring to not being shy opening the hood of a linux system. but totally worth it, the reward is freedom and its continuous cycle of collective learning...
(although the Pinephone is not really a "smartphone" in the sense most people use that word: a restricted computer that allows to run wallgarden applications.... a pinephone doesnt natively run "smartphone apps" and is more like a full-blown, general purpose computer running GNU/linux that also contains a modem enabling calls, sms and data...)
Pinephone hasn't quite reached daily driver status... And don't get me started on the PPP.
Gigaset. I am using the GS5. 2 Sim slots and a SD card slot, not those Sim/SD slots that most manufacturers use. Replaceable battery.
made is Germany, run stock android. Stock to the point of I have it bugging me to install Oct 2023 patches for the past 2 weeks. Kinka wish I could talk it I will patch when I get back from holidays.
If you just want something that’s more privacy-minded out of the box without messing about with custom ROMs etc, maybe consider an iPhone?
It is not privacy minded unfortunately. No major smartphone brand has privacy.
I will never buy an Apple product.
They are good products, even if they don’t have the nerdy cool factor. Each day I’m working on old C/C++ code in Linux, so having my phone be a reliable appliance instead of yet another computer to fuck around with is totally fine for me. I liked my past Android phones too though.
No carrier bloatware and very long software support.
I carry an iPhone for work, corp IT manages it, I use little more than comm stuff there, so theres no advantage to having an Android. (Before that my work phone was a blackberry, because I need work calls, email, messaging, etc to just work, and you couldn't beat the battery life).
My personal is Android, because I want the tools I can use there.
Two very different use-cases.
And I really dislike iOS UI/UX, the limitations are very constricting. But for the basics it "just works", but it isn't something to recommend for privacy.
Weirdly in this case I think I agree. You can look at my previous comments about how much I hate Apple but it seems to me that OP isn't too technical and installing a custom ROM might not be what they're after. iPhones don't have any of those annoying games and stuff preinstalled, as long as the carrier doesn't install stuff. I'd suggest a refurbished unlocked iPhone though, to save some money. Make sure the previous owners account is removed from the device or else it'll probably just be a paper weight.
If OP is open to custom ROMs then GrapheneOS is a great choice but LineageOS and DivestOS are also great options for someone that wants to get started with privacy and they support a lot more devices, that can be got for cheaper than an iPhone/Pixel. Again, I'd recommended a refurbished, carrier unlocked phone that is supported by one of these projects
Its not hard to flash a rom these days, unlike ten years ago.
Now developers post instructions for each device type. Look at Lineage, Graphene, DivestOS. Very good instructions from all of them, including installing ADB on Windows or Linux.
Of the dozens (hundreds?) of times I've flashed over the years, I've bricked 1 device, and that was from experimenting and not following instructions, I knew it was risky.
And with Pixel it's about as straightforward as it gets.
+1 for iPhone. Is it as private as GrapheneOS? No. Is it more private than almost all out of the box android phones? Yes.
Apple still use a lot of your data, although they at least claim to anonymise most of it. But that data stays internal to try boost more apple sales, and isn’t sold to other companies. I’d rather 1 company have my information than 100.
Any apple apps you don’t want are easily removed once it’s set up and they don’t come back with updates etc.
This is the privacy community, I wouldn't consider iOS appropriate here at all, since you really can't do anything to limit the data collection. Especially not for a "what phone should I get" question. If someone already has an iPhone, asking what you can do is a good question ("not much" is the answer you'll get).
Is it better out if the box than most Androids? Probably, maybe, depending on how that's defined. But I can quickly make most Androids far better than iOS, even ones with a lot of vendor bloat.
For example, I recently cleaned up a Verizon Samsung just using the Universal Android Debloat Tool. This is stuff I used to do manually with ADB.
Then adding a VPN and I could restrict apps calling home and bypass Google DNS.
You can even disable google services, play, etc, and just don't use a google acccount on the phone.