after St. Louis police unions instructed officers to publicly display The Punisher's insignia (the mark of a lawless, fascist murderer) the comic book community was quick to point out the stupidity, and the frankly horrifying message sent by supposed peace officers endorsing a maniac. So it's a good thing The Punisher personally confirms he hates cops who see him as a friend… making every cop who "wears his mark" or calls themselves a "fan" look like shameful fool in the process.
They like him because they want to LARP as a reckless, vengeance seeking gunslinger who eliminates anyone who they feel has wronged them or who is "wrong". As in so many other circumstances, they've missed the point and the intended message.
The ol' Walter White/Rick Sanchez/Joker/Patrick Batemen "hes literally me fr fr" but for adult men doing an actual job. It'd be cringey if they weren't in a position of authority.
Still pretty cringey tbh. The fact that there's so many people (mostly white men) who run around fantasizing about gunning down people they disagree with is sad, and terrifying. It's a whole subculture of violence obsessed gun nuts with a victim complex and low self esteem.
Most cops in North America barely even passed high school, you think they'd pick up on literary concepts like an anti-hero or even a morally gray character? They see protagonist, they probably automatically assume they're unambiguously the good guy for every story.
Punisher 2099 was fascist (Wouldn't kill cops, and became part of Doom 2099's regime when he took over America.) but Frank Castle Punisher (A.k.a. the one we know.)? Pretty much equal opportunity murderer of criminals and baddies.
I don't think that makes him fascist, just a broken person with twisted morals attempting to do good (in his mind). IIRC, he makes no attempt to push his morals beyond himself.
In fact, doesn't he specifically tell people not to be like him?? That's very much NOT fascie behavior.
A fascist is someone who supports a single strong leader with total control of the nation. 'Dictator' was an actual position in the Roman Republic; the people could vote to give one man absolute power for a period of time. Makes sense if you're dealing with a natural disaster or invasion and don't have time to go through the usual channels. Fascism became popular in the chaos of the post WW1 era. Things were changing rapidly, and conservatives wanted to rein in the 'undesirables.' Ironically, the Communist Russian Revolution was a huge spur to the creation of numerous fascist parties across Europe.
Frank Castle, the Punisher, is not a fascist. He isn't interested in taking power for himself, and doesn't want a dictator. He often speaks of having the greatest respect for Captain America, the guy who always chooses the side of liberty and fair play. Frank knows that he's a criminal and a murderer. He just doesn't care. IMHO if he and the Joker were both locked up and unable to kill each other, the two would get along fine.
Even captain america does plenty of fascist things mate, Punisher is definitely very close to fascism by the mere fact that he represents someone who thinks they are above the law and they know better and that they can deliver their version of justice.
Of course that alone doesn't make him fascist, but the things superheroes are portrayed doing nowadays are very much things fascists like.
Id recommend checking out this excellent video from Folding Ideas for example
How fascist he is depends on who is writing him. His symbol is literally a stylized Nazi totenkopf, and while he has never voiced support for totalitarian leaders, his solution to crime - escalating the violence - is consistent with fascist ideology.
Last time I went through US customs the agent checking me had his backpack behind him with a punisher patch (plus a thin blue line one, because of course he did). Gotta use true fashy believers to check all them damn immigrants and all that...
I’ve occasionally seen the black and white American flag with one red line instead of the blue one. Apparently it’s meant to show support for paramedics and firefighters. I wish that one was more popular.
He's definitely a lawless murderer, and the types of cops that display his insignia certainly seem to lean fascist, but what makes the Punisher fascist?
There's a saying I first heard from cops in my country and then later saw pop up in several TV shows, the last one clear in memory being The Rookie.
The saying embodies that whenever cops decide to group together to the point of getting a symbol or name for said group, it's only a matter of time before they go to jail.
In corrupt countries, they may not actually go to jail, but the point is that whenever cops do this, criminality will always ensue.
I don’t know where the US fits in your consideration of corruption but cops very rarely go to jail here, even (especially?) when they form up around a symbol. Here’s one example: the long-lived murderous LA Sheriff’s Department gangs. https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/
The point is that when they label themselves with a symbol or name, they up to some criminal shit already or before long.
And yes, sections of US police are corrupt as cops get away with murder on a daily basis.
Corruption doesn't need to mean they are on the take (although there's probably plenty that are), it can also simply mean that they turn any level of blind eye for their own or external groups.
I saw a Don't Tread on Me sticker right next to a Thin Blue Line sticker the other day (on the back of a giant fuck-off Ford truck, of course) and was like "that dude needs to make up his fuckin' mind."
I mean, to me the meaning of that juxtaposition is pretty clear.
The Gadsden flag highlights individual primacy, but the thin blue line sticker makes it clear that it's his individual primacy that he's concerned with. For an anti-authoritarian evoking that symbolism, the 'me' refers to the general autonomy of humanity or at least Americans, but in this case it probably literally refers to that specific individual's autonomy or to the autonomy of the United States as a country in a nationalistic sense.
He's basically just representing his subculture and thumping his chest about how nobody better tell him what to do or get in his way, while also showing that he's affiliated with a big gang. Whether he's aware of the racist speech the symbol is referencing or the symbol's deeper meaning is kind of up in the air, but it still probably wouldn't produce much conflict with his sense of nationalist autonomy in an authoritarian context regardless.
Honestly, it's that context that I think makes the association with Punisher inevitable. Whether the character supports the current gang in charge or not, he clearly believes in an authoritarian model of crime and punishment; that's the lens he views the world through and the impetus for his actions. If it's satire, it certainly doesn't read that way. Though, to be fair, the show is probably a lot more egregious in that regard than the comic (while also likely being more widely consumed).
Frank Castle supports authoritarian measures so much that he goes beyond what the legal system allows for. He literally names himself after an action designed to reinforce authoritarian hierarchy. Sounds pretty on the nose to me.
I would guess you misread that, it seems like a grammatically unlikely interpretation given the context.
In the article, the phrase is describing the punisher in light of the police worship of a " lawless, fascist murderer", so I would expect both of those adjectives to be referring to the punisher.
And I don't think the punisher is known for killing fascists either, although I'm willing to defer to someone who has read any of the comics.
No he's not. The point is that cops wearing his symbol are fucking idiots. The punisher is a lawless vigilante who hates cops. Cops - an organization created to enforce laws - have no business wearing the symbol of a lawless vigilante, and they're stupid idiots for wearing the symbol of one that hates their whole organization.
Well I think the issue is that you equate fascism with pro dictatorship stuff, people being seen as exceptional and above the law and shouldn't be questioned are part of fascism, look at the adoration Trump gets despite his crimes, look how ready they are to excuse it and look at him like a savior that will fix it all, does that not feel similar to how superheroes are portrayed?
I am using the definition of fascism, yes, to point out that the punisher does not fit that definition.
Your connection between Trump and the punisher is untenable; Trump is an immature wannabe dictator starving for attention living in a self-created world of illusions, deliberately and vocally ignoring the practical realities around him, and paying others to keep him in power as long as possible.
The punisher is a solo vigilante quietly skulking around in the shadows whose main purpose is revenge for his family with no interest in becoming a leader or even a part of society. He takes matters into his own hands, literally.
The video you posted has a pretty strong "i'm 14 and this is deep" vibe, it's a narrow conclusion-driven critique of extremely limited facets of a few pg-13 movie characters.
Superman was created by two Jewish teens who eventually used the hero to tell stories about fighting specifically fascism, and real world terrors like mine collapses.
None of those heroes want to be a leader, they all have special hideaway places that they self-inter themselves so that they won't become some sort of leader that they know they shouldn't be.
The video isn't a valid critique of any of those heroes. Culturally insensitive American movies making Americans look good or special as the heroes isn't exactly a new thing or particular to superheroes. Brendan Fraser did it in the mummy. Most movies with a hero from any country do that.
Depends on the writer. Sometimes he's a contractor for the American government, he's been a Frankenstein and an Iron Man, sometimes an outright fascist, sometimes killing fascists.
Depends which comics. People say it's ironic cops use the Punisher skull, they say the character hates cops. These people never read Punisher: MAX. It's not ironic, it's right on brand. Plus people that read it in like 2008 are sometimes 30 year old cops now.
It's like all those non-Catholic Christians who display Crusader symbols. They are forgetting that the Crusaders would have murdered believers like them in a heartbeat. Plus the Crusaders probably killed more Christians than Muslims and Jews, since the Muslim conquerors would force the local Christian population to fight on their side.
The Christians, at least during the 3rd crusade fought because they knew the crusaders would murder them despite being Christian. King Richard 'the lion heart' had entire towns brutally murdered for mere convenience. Christians looked to Saladin since he was their refuge from the europeans and when he sacked cities didnt banish or commit genocide. Saladin ended up losing his support in the end because he limited his army from pillaging.
Cops are some of the biggest fan boys out there. The movie 'The French Connection*' inspired them to wear Popeye's hat and ankle holster. Magnum PI inspired them to grow mustaches. The TV show Hill Street Blues got them wearing turtlenecks.
*If you haven't seen it, watch 'The French Connection.' Great New York locations, Oscar winning actors, and one of the best car chases ever filmed.