Japan says Chinese military violated territorial airspace for first time
Japan says Chinese military violated territorial airspace for first time
The ministry said one of the Chinese military's Y-9 intelligence-gathering planes had briefly entered Japanese territory near the Danjo Islands in Nagasaki Prefecture.
The territorial violation by China is the latest in a series of events amplifying tensions between Beijing and Japan.
A Chinese military surveillance plane breached Japanese airspace off the country’s southwestern coast on Monday, marking what Japan’s defense ministry described as the first known incursion by China’s military into its territorial airspace.
According to a ministry official, a Chinese reconnaissance aircraft briefly entered Japanese territory near Nagasaki Prefecture around 11:30 a.m. on Monday. In response, Japan’s Self-Defense Force put fighter jets on high alert and issued a warning to the Chinese aircraft.
While Chinese planes frequently appear in international airspace around Japan, this incident represents the first confirmed entry of a military aircraft into Japan’s territorial airspace.
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My reckless, irresponsible “solution” would be to just shoot ’em the fuck down. It’s a good thing I’m not in charge of Japanese border security. I’d probably start World War 3.
Meh, Turkey shot down a Russian jet and nothing happened a handful of years back. Can you really be that mad when a fighter breaching protected airspace is shot down?
It's not about "mad", it's about pushing boundaries. If they decide they want to...
it’s about pushing boundaries.
China is going to keep pushing boundaries until they get punched in the mouth.
They need a bigger plane that can just drop a net on the other plane and tow it in to Japan and give the pilot a stern talking to, and then they take the plane apart and send it back in a box. Dismantling the pilot optional.
Im thinking the plane kidnapping jet scene in the last Dark Knight film.
Yes, you can.
Russia and Turkey have very different political dynamics than China and Japan.
Also, these types of airspace incursions, followed by intercepts, are pretty standard amongst major powers.
It doesn't mean they're benign, but that shooting down Chinese planes intentionally as a response, is something you do if you're willing and ready for the escalation path to result in open conflict, not simply an escalation.
Whereas these airspace incursions are just… something you do?
They have been a staple of great power competition since the Cold War, as a means of political signaling, military posturing, and gathering of intelligence.
I mean, sure. When you have the world by the balls because you produce nearly 100% of all the worlds goods, what are you going to do? Say no?
China’s manufacturing capability is economically important in the short term but should hardly be looked at as a stranglehold on the entire world. Different countries have previously held the crown for “manufacturer of the world’s cheap rubbish” and India and Vietnam are currently vying for their turn to wear it. China will lose their supremacy before they’re able to do anything f politically strategic with it on the global scale.
Turkey isn't reliant on Russia, while Japan is very reliant on China.
China is a baby when it comes to politics, gets mad and never apologizes over the smallest thing.
Example when Australia said they wanted an investigation for COVID. China quickly took offense and banned coal, beef and wine imports.
Another example when Japan released Fukushima water into Ocean (following protocol). China got mad because Japan were "polluting" the water, so they banned fish imports from Japan. Irony is that China does it way worse and unregulated.
Just think what this airplane could start if they shoot it down.
Why is Japan reliant on China?
Japan 🗾 is very isolated and everything is made in China. Even a lot of food imports are from China too. If you go to local supermarket in Japan, a lot of meat are labeled from China or "overseas" to hide it.
Personally I'm been trying to avoid as much I can because China doesn't have the best record when it comes hygiene and food safety.
How about human rights? What's their record with that?
Um China has a really bad record with human rights, I could write a book 😅 but a prime example is the ugyhurs genocide that's still going on today.
Yes......that was the joke.
Food makes sense.
Manufacturing AFAIK is moving to the US since Japan can't afford the insecurity of dealing economically with China for goods.
It's Russia, they are getting invaded, and they started the invasion lmao, not sure if Chinese military is as bad
I've got a better solution for you: wall of chain guns firing a curtain of giant bullets straight up all the time. All approved flights will be directed through the part of the curtain that'll be reloading in sync with their breach.
Is this the Simpsons approach? "I'm just going to fire my chain guns like this, and if you get shot down it's your own fault!"
Unfortunately, bullets fired straight up need to... come down. And the wind means it won't always land in the same spot.
I still remember some idiot fired a pistol or something straight up at a local fireworks show a few years ago. A little boy died. It was really sad. I don't think they ever found the guy who did it, either.
... I just googled it. That was ten years ago. Dang...
I was going to ask how a pebble can kill with just terminal velocity, but it IS a rather pointy, metal and aerodynamic pebble.
I mean sometimes they didn't even mean to be in your airspace, the instruments on the craft just went goofy and now they're lost. It wouldn't be cool to shoot someone down just because they don't know where they are.
(Not saying this is what happened, just that it can happen)
How does GPS just “go goofy?”
"In a half mile, turn right.....
At the MC Escher painting, take the next upside down left down the stairs."
GPS jamming and spoofing is like, a whole thing and isn’t even new tech at this point. Military grade nav doesn’t rely on GPS.
Ive seen a gps go nuts for no reason and decide that I am infact on the otherside of the county, and I live in a rather big county largest in the US actually.
Your GPS doesn't do the Cha Cha Slide?
That ought to be fun with all the border disputes. Some islands are claimed by 4 (well, 5) nations:
- Japan
- South Korea
- North Korea (because they claim the south and all their claims)
- Taiwan
- China
russia has claims as well
Yeah, in the north there are still disputes as well.
My reckless, irresponsible “solution” would be to just shoot ’em the fuck down.
Reconnaissance aircraft are notoriously difficult to hit, due to their high altitude and high speed.
Firing a bunch of ordinance into the sky would just mean raining it back down on your own population.
The Y9 in question here though is slow, fat, and low - max speed of 360kn and a service ceiling of 10,000m. It's a cargo plane with EW stuff on it.
Then it seems like there's a leap of logic between "cargo plane" and "reconnaissance aircraft". Very possible it was just an inexperienced/behind schedule pilot cutting corners on the route.
Seems like a dick move to kill an entire plane full of people because someone decided to short-cut through your airspace.
Very possible it was just an inexperienced/behind schedule pilot cutting corners on the route.
In a vacuum, maybe. In the context of how China has been acting towards nearly all of their neighbors recently, not likely. This reeks of wolf warrior diplomacy.
In the context of how China has been acting towards nearly all of their neighbors
The Western reporting coverage of Chinese military operations is slanted to paint China as an aggressor, in the same way Western reporting of Iraq in the early 2000s was slanted to paint Iraqis as terrorists.
You don't read about American military aircraft invading Japanese airspace because Japan is occupied territory. You don't read about Taiwanese aircraft invading Chinese airspace, because there's no defined territorial line between them on account of Taiwan being contested territory.
This reeks of wolf warrior diplomacy.
China sending a single Rambo-esque supersoldier in to liberate native peoples from an evil mercenary army?
The Western reporting coverage of Chinese military operations is slanted to paint China as an aggressor
China is literally aggressive in both active and passive ways, maybe some news outlets are exaggerating a little for clicks, but it's not by much
You don't read about American military aircraft invading Japanese airspace because Japan is occupied territory.
Japan isn't "occupied territory" they are a US ally who allows us to have a base there for rapid response and protection.
You don't read about Taiwanese aircraft invading Chinese airspace, because there's no defined territorial line between them on account of Taiwan being contested territory.
Lol, nah, Taiwan is a country the only one contesting it is China in the same way that Russia is "contesting" that Ukraine is their territory.
This reeks of wolf warrior diplomacy.
China sending a single Rambo-esque supersoldier in to liberate native peoples from an evil mercenary army?
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It's called strategic boundary pushing China has been known to do such things with their other neighbors
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You reek of a China apologist
China is literally aggressive in both active and passive ways
Are we doing the "Chinese Weather Balloon" hysteria again?
Japan isn’t “occupied territory” they are a US ally
Starting in which year?
Taiwan is a country the only one contesting it is China
Where does Taiwanese airspace end and Chinese airspace begin? Would it surprise you to discover that Taiwan claims airspace over the south end of China?
I know folks on here love making the "East Taiwan" joke, but are you seriously going to argue that Xiamen and Fuzhou are also part of Taiwan?
It’s called strategic boundary pushing
Are we doing the “Chinese Weather Balloon” hysteria again?
If the US sent a bunch of weather balloons into Chinese airspace without any warning and they approached government and military sites, would you say the same thing?
Without explicit permission from the government it is a breach of sovereignty. The US had the right to annihilate all of those balloons the instant they passed into US airspace -- just like China has the right to destroy the hypothetical US balloons as soon as they pass into Chinese airspace.
For how often China beats the drum about sovereignty, they should know this.
If the US sent a bunch of weather balloons into Chinese airspace without any warning
The US had the right to annihilate all of those balloons the instant they passed into US airspace
The US feds panicked at the bad press and created a rain of falling debris over South Carolina. Heck of a job.
And China would've been completely in the right if they shot those balloons down. It was a violation of their sovereignty. An ironic one, considering China did it first, but nonetheless, it enters their airspace without permission. China would be totally justified in shooting them down. I'm not sure why you think this is some sort of gotcha.
Additionally, they didn't panic at bad press. They were waiting for the balloon to clear land so that when they shot it down, the debris wouldn't rain down on anyone.
Once again, if these were truly just weather balloons for research, the university conducting the research and the Chinese government are incredibly negligent for not at least informing the US. For innocuous scientific research, there should be no problem with open communication.
It was over the waters of South Carolina since recovery was paramount. If they panicked theyd of shot it down over cow landia somewhere in the great planes.
Why does this picture place a US military base in Hong Kong?
Edit: also, identification zone =/= claimed airspace
US aircraft carriers patrol the territory regularly.
Are we doing the "Chinese Weather Balloon" hysteria again?
Ah yea, when people are concerned when a near-hostile country sends over unknown aircraft unannounced it's just "hysteria". Not like those weather balloons are perfectly capable of carrying bombs or biowarfare contagions or anything.....
Starting in which year?
April 28, 1952 when the San Francisco Peace Treaty that was signed on September 8, 1951 went into effect.
Here's a wikipedia article all about US-Japan relations since you appear to have flunked highschool history
a near-hostile country sends over unknown aircraft
A country's biggest trading partner losing control of a very-well-established-as-weather-balloon aircraft.
April 28, 1952 when the San Francisco Peace Treaty that was signed on September 8, 1951 went into effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Course
Fascinating stuff for a fully democratic and not-at-all militarily occupied country to undergo. If you're into Wikipedia articles, you should give it a read. Full consolidation of economic power under a few US-loyal Zaibatsus that dominate the country into the modern day. Rearming of a police force loyal to the occupying US government, which was dedicated to busting up unions and crippling the nascent labor-rights movement in the country. And rapid expansion of military bases, in the run up to the US invasion and aerial bombardment of the Korean Peninsula.
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You don’t read about American military aircraft invading Japanese airspace because Japan is occupied territory.
Least delusional tankie
China’s actions paint them as an aggressor.
You’re right that you don’t read about the US military invading Japanese territory as they are invited by the Japanese government. Countries are free to repeal that invitation just like Niger.
And no, I’m not referencing a movie.
Dude what? China’s near-daily incursions over Taiwan have escalated and escalated to an objectively ridiculous level. Nobody “painting” shit.
China’s near-daily incursions over Taiwan
This is what we're defining as an "incursion over Taiwan".
Not a mistake anyone would make accidentally. They wouldn’t be allowed to fly near hostile territory without being well informed of the risks and consequences. This was a planned and deliberate action, or Chinas airforce is incompetent and can’t be trusted.
Both are dangerous and shouldn’t be tolerated in your territory.
Not a mistake anyone would make accidentally.
It's a routine mistake that happens regularly, particularly when there is a large amount of traffic and a crop of younger personal.
Both are dangerous and shouldn’t be tolerated in your territory.
We've flipped from "China is being too hostile" to "The US isn't being hostile enough".
But it turns out they're two sides of the same coin. Americans simply can't get enough war.
What part of this story involves the US lol
Don't you know that all the bad that's happening in the world, and I mean all of it, not some of it, not a lot of it, but ALL of it is the sole responsibility of the Great Satan?
And that all bad things are either done by the US, done by a US ally - forced to by the US as all US allies are occupied territories and have no agency - or exists solely in US propaganda, as countries free of US influence can never do bad?
It’s a routine mistake that happens regularly
Lol no, shitty private student pilots with tens of hours of experience don't break airspace, and I'm not talking about airspace boundaries between states, but about random ones within countries that you can request and get in a week and like 100 EUR.
Every single flight starts with a briefing on what airspaces you need to avoid, and what measures you will take to avoid them. At least if Chinese jet pilots have half the discipline of a Romanian crop duster.
Possible, but these are also the type of aircraft you would expect to see in mass during any naval conflict or blockading action against China. I believe the PLAAF/PLAN are working on their version of Rapid Dragon.
Relatively slow, but plentiful, cargo planes, would be a pretty obvious choice for launching a saturation attack against USN or Japanese forces operating outside the range of their land based missiles. Again, assuming they develop a similar system to Rapid Dragon.
Reconnaissance aircraft are notoriously difficult to hit, due to their high altitude and high speed.
I mean, maybe in the 80's? The technological advancements of SAM have basically made speed and altitude mean next to nothing. Now most things depend on being hard to pick up on radar, or like the plane in the article, are just large planes filled with electronic warfare equipment.
Firing a bunch of ordinance into the sky would just mean raining it back down on your own population.
This would have been over the Pacific......
The technological advancements of SAM have basically made speed and altitude mean next to nothing.
Show me the American-made hypersonic air defense missile.
Hypersonic AD is the dumbest thing ever. The most important things in AD are maneuverability and accuracy, and going supersonic tremendously impedes both, unless "missing the incoming weapon as quickly as possible" is your main objective.
It’s called patriot. It’s shot down multiple Russian Kinzhals in Ukraine.
Sure it has.
Doubt all you want, but you don’t have to meet a hypersonic missile where it is, only where it will be. They aren’t very maneuverable at their maximum velocities which means it’s possible to shoot them down with a slower intercept missile provided the battery is in a favorable location to make an intercept in time.
you don’t have to meet a hypersonic missile where it is, only where it will be
Just fire the bullet to hit the other bullet, sure. Very easy and we do it successfully all the time.
it’s possible to shoot them down with a slower intercept missile
Theoretically.
This kind of pro-Russian cope was much more justifiable 2 and a half years ago. Now that reality has unveiled the decrepit, incompetent reality that lies beneath the propaganda, it's just sad. I hope this cheerleading is just a halfhearted effort on your part (or that you're doing it for a few rubles per post), otherwise this is pathetic.
Now that reality has unveiled the decrepit, incompetent reality that lies beneath the propaganda
I mean, we're saying this with a Boeing Starliner stranded at the ISS. But sure, America has a super-secret anti-hypersonic missile system that's just like the Iron Dome (nobody ask how Hamas was piercing the Most Sophisticated Defense System in the world with a box full of scraps, btw) only 10x better.
I hope this cheerleading is just a halfhearted
This whole thread is nothing but cheerleading. You're even fan-casting the existence of anti-missile systems the US admits it doesn't have.
I mean, we’re saying this with a Boeing Starliner stranded at the ISS.
Meanwhile another US company, which is also a defense contractor, has revolutionized the space industry. It regularly launches satellites by the dozens and can rendezvous with the ISS anytime that NASA asks. The fact that one company, Boeing, is struggling with a product means absolutely nothing to the industry as a whole.
But sure, America has a super-secret anti-hypersonic missile system that’s just like the Iron Dome
It's absolutely no secret. It's a Patriot System and it's quite capable of handling the laughable "Hypersonic Missiles", i.e. repurposed non maneuvering ballistic trajectory junk from the 80s and 90s, that adversaries field today.
Does the US have perfect gear that never fails? Absolutely not, some of our stuff is junk or near junk, but when it comes to this kind of thing the the US has no peer.
You’re even fan-casting the existence of anti-missile systems the US admits it doesn’t have.
We we have an entire Department dedicated to it along with platforms like SBX-1 and THAAD (among other things.)
Again its not perfect but it definitely exists and it gets better every single year.
You must have me confused with somebody else. I'm the one saying hypersonic missiles are pointless. The US toyed with them 50 years ago, and AD was obviously much less advanced than it is today. Not only that, but AFAIK the Sprint Missile is still the fastest of all time, so by your own standard where more speed makes for a better missile, you should be cheering for the USA.
Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me.
You don't need to hit the bullet with a bullet. You just hit it with a shotgun blast or grenade, either destroying it outright or blowing it off course enough that it loses its energy and becomes ineffective. We literally do this all the time on tanks and humvees. It's called a hardkill APS. The Russians had one working in the 70s. Modern ones are capable of detecting incoming tank rounds moving between 700-1700m/s, identifying which will hit the vehicle, and blowing them out of the air once they reach 10-15 meters away. All in a span of nanoseconds. It's standard equipment on Israel's MBT, and Germany, the US, and the UK have all field tested various systems and are considering making hardkill systems standard for the next generation of tanks and IFVs. Multiple companies across multiple countries make them for upgrade kits. Germany already produces vehicles with standard hardkill APS for their export market.
This isn't crazy sci-fi technology. It's just rocket science.
You don’t need to hit the bullet with a bullet. You just hit it with a shotgun blast or grenade
Tell me you don’t know what you’re talking about without telling me.
:-|
This isn’t crazy sci-fi technology. It’s just rocket science.
Incredible.
That's...literally how hardkill APS works. CIWS takes the same approach but uses a rotary cannon instead. The issue ain't putting a missile in the path of the other missile. It's in having enough time to do so. This is why the US concluded that the most effective way to intercept an ICBM is to destroy it before it finishes its acceleration stages. Ballistics is a known quantity.
Still aren't convincing that you know what the hell you're talking about.
I mean there's material evidence out there that pretty well proves it, and Russia has ceased to claim that they're fake reports.
If the kinzhal missiles were actually "hypersonic missiles" that could maneuver at speed, then yeah they'd be hard to intercept. However, the kinzhal are actually just missiles with a ramjet, meaning they hold a fairly normal flight trajectory and can be targeted by systems like the patriot.
Shooting a bullet with another bullet is basically what all anti air systems do, the only thing that changes is the scaling in the math.
Russia has ceased to claim that they’re fake reports
If I had a dollar for every time some hack talk radio announcer claimed "They're not even denying it anymore, folks!"
Shooting a bullet with another bullet is basically what all anti air systems do
The Iron Dome is regularly penetrated by bottle rockets and radio shack drones. This was supposed to be the top of the line in anti-air defense. But sure, Boeing is sitting on something that's way better.
"They're not even denying it anymore, folks!"
Lol, k. Then please offer any evidence that the evidence and reporting are fake?
The Iron Dome is regularly penetrated by bottle rockets and radio shack drones.
It's almost like air defense weapons all have a margin for error...... Kinda like how we've regularly seen s300 and s400 systems get taken out by himars, a weapon platform from the 80's.
But sure, Boeing is sitting on something that's way better.
Lol, not sure who you're arguing with. I haven't mentioned the iron dome or Boeing..... Do you exclusively argue via a strawman ?
Show me the American-made hypersonic air defense missile
Lol, what does that have to do with reconnaissance airplanes?
My whole argument is that planes can no longer out run/maneuver surface to air missiles. What does that have to do with hypersonic missiles?
Patriot system. Already proven to fuck up hypersonic shit
This isn't reconnaissance, it's standard airspace incursion and intercept.
Everyone here seems to be a really hawkish as of late, or possibly just having a very poor understanding of international relations.
Reconnaissance aircraft are notoriously difficult to hit
With exceptions for the United State's top shelf stealth planes the Japanese are quite capable of shooting down anything flying in earths atmosphere. In the event that Japanese can't do it the United States Aircraft Carrier Group assigned to Japan absolutely can.
the Japanese are quite capable of shooting down anything flying in earths atmosphere
Sure. Just put in a call to the Americans to do it for them.
Still not clear why anyone is shooting down Chinese cargo planes.
Just put in a call to the Americans to do it for them.
Japan has its own domestically developed Surface to Air missile system.
Still not clear why anyone is shooting down Chinese cargo planes.
The Y-9 has several variants, some of which are ELINT and AWACS. I'd trust the Japanese to know which are which, they see them often enough on their radar screens.
That said, it would be monumentally stupid to expose an AWACS plane like that. Those things don't grow on trees, even in China.