Atheism is fine. Antitheism is bigotry.
Atheism is fine. Antitheism is bigotry.
No one is free from criticism. Harmful ideas should be condemned, when they are demonstrably harmful. But theist beliefs are such a vast range and diversity of ideas, some harmful, some useful, some healing, some vivifying, and still others having served as potent drivers of movements for justice; that to lump all theist religious belief into one category and attack the whole of it, only demonstrates your ignorance of theology, and is in fact bigotry.
By saying that religious and superstitious beliefs should be disrespected, or otherwise belittling, or stigmatizing religion and supernatural beliefs as a whole, you have already established the first level on the "Pyramid of Hate", as well as the first of the "10 Stages of Genocide."
If your religion is atheism, that's perfectly valid. If someone is doing something harmful with a religious belief as justification, that specific belief should be challenged. But if you're crossing the line into bigotry, you're as bad as the very people you're condemning.
Antitheism is a form of supremacy in and of itself.
"In other words, it is quite clear from the writings of the “four horsemen” that “new atheism” has little to do with atheism or any serious intellectual examination of the belief in God and everything to do with hatred and power.
Indeed, “new atheism” is the ideological foregrounding of liberal imperialism whose fanatical secularism extends the racist logic of white supremacy. It purports to be areligious, but it is not. It is, in fact, the twin brother of the rabid Christian conservatism which currently feeds the Trump administration’s destructive policies at home and abroad – minus all the biblical references."
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/5/4/the-resurrection-of-new-atheism/
It seems like you're saying no one is allowed to criticize religion as a whole, but only certain aspects of certain religions that you agree are "harmful".
The problem is that there are a growing number of people who find ALL religions to be harmful, and those people have a right to make their feelings known.
You are gaslighting people into believing that they are bigots for speaking out against bigoted religious practices. That sounds like you are the one with a problem
There is nothing inherently “good” about religion at all. Honestly, I believe it cheapens the human race. It says that humans aren’t strong enough on their own. They NEED the guidance and help of invisible beings to do the things they do.
I was a heroin addict for over a decade. I am now clean, and even off the methadone. I purposefully avoided things like NA because I got myself clean. God had no part in it. God doesn’t deserve the credit. I put in the work.
But the main problem with religion is that it is an override switch for critical thinking. Things that are obviously, and proven to be helpful and right. They can become muddy at best and downright wrong when viewed through the lens of religion. Think, abortion, and stem cell research. Good people get hurt when viewed through the lens of religion. Think LGBTQ, or people of a different religion.
In the end the small positives aren’t worth the negatives, and for those “good religious people” you still support machines that are into child marriage, child molestation, keeping women down, and hurting other humans just because your god said it’s cool.
I went to some AA meetings at one point in my life. It's sickening to see people cheapen their success by thanking god, instead of their own willpower.
You made the decision, thank yourself, or the people around you.
Hey, you want to give the credit away for your accomplishments. That’s your choice to make. You worked for that sobriety. You can give the credit to whomever you like.
There is nothing inherently “good” about religion at all. Honestly, I believe it cheapens the human race. It says that humans aren’t strong enough on their own. They NEED the guidance and help of invisible beings to do the things they do
It's arguable whether anything is inherently good at all.
The idea that belief in a god cheapens the human race, or that belief in a god makes people weak isn't any different from saying belief in natural forces that we analyze scientifically cheapens the human race or makes people weaker in some sense.
God had no part in it. God doesn’t deserve the credit. I put in the work.
Scientific arguments can be made for why your success isn't truly your own either. I.e. socioeconomic class, geographical proximity to resources, nature vs nurture arguments etc.
On top of that, not all theists would say you don't deserve credit for your hard work.
But the main problem with religion is that it is an override switch for critical thinking. Things that are obviously, and proven to be helpful and right. They can become muddy at best and downright wrong when viewed through the lens of religion.
Failing to think critically is not an issue solely held by theists. Atheists can and regularly do fail at this. Normal people of all types fail at this often. The assumption that theism implies a failure to think critically is just wrong. Most theistic beliefs can easily be made consistent with scientific thinking for what it's worth.
In the end the small positives aren’t worth the negatives, and for those “good religious people” you still support machines that are into child marriage, child molestation, keeping women down, and hurting other humans just because your god said it’s cool.
I don't think religious institutions are the only institutions that do these things. Perhaps I am wrong? But to claim these crimes are solely a theistic thing seems incorrect to me.
But even if they are, the institutions themselves and the religious beliefs are distinct. All religions really try to do is to explain things we don't really have answers for. This is not inherently bad, atheists do this about as much as theists as far as I can tell.
Nothing is inherently good. Life is a crapshoot. But religion likes to say that it is good.
Your second point. I’m guessing you’re equating science and religion? Which is a terrible argument. We can see and do science using our own brains and so, I’m just going to leave this one alone.
This one is true. I was homeless and ran into a girl that had a crush on me. She said that she would pay for my treatment if I was serious about getting clean. Another opportunity wasn’t going to come like that, and everyone I grew up with was already dead from overdoses. So, she paid for it and I did the suffering. After all no man is an island.
The theists that would say I don’t deserve credit for my accomplishments are the self hating humans I was referring to. They think we are too weak to do anything for ourselves. It also gives them plausible deniability when they do something fucked up. The good and the bad. It was all me baby.
Failing to think critically is something that happens to all of us from time to time. The difference is that religion is used to cause a mass directed lapse in critical thinking. As an example “god doesn’t like gay people because it says so in the bible. so all gay people bad”. When someone thinking critically would just judge individuals based on their own merit. Regardless of who they decide makes them happy.
Last point. Whew. Man. Just to be clear. I enjoyed reading your counter points. I thought all of them but one were pretty good, and that one may just be me misreading it.
So, you aren’t wrong. Boy Scouts comes to mind. But I feel like there is something especially egregious about someone telling you they’re going to save your soul, but the whole time they’re fucking your kid. Ya know what I mean? Not very holy of them.
This is the take I cannot stand. I don't care what anyone's beliefs are, but to say that religion is inherently bad, or that it is incompatible with critical thinking is offensive, and quite frankly, extremely narrow minded and stupid.
From the Christians who have been proven to molest children, and set back rights of women and LGBTQ people. To the Muslims that also do horrible things to children, and women, and LGBTQ people. To Hindus that kill Sikhs and Muslims. To Sikhs that kill Hindus. I could keep going but I think I’ve got a large enough sample size already.
Even if you’re church or whatever doesn’t do these things directly. It still helps to breed the identity that is that religion. It still helps to spread the hate associated with that religion. In a lot of cases it sends money to fund the people that are fighting.
As far as religion messing with people’s ability to think critically. If you think religion doesn’t mess with that. I can’t help you. It’s literally in the news all day everyday. Pretty much everything that has to do with hate towards the LGBTQ people in the US was initiated by fear mongering politicians, and given legitimacy by religion.
Offensive to who? He was talking about religion, not a person. It doesn't seem like you understand how being offended works. When you add nothing of value and go on the attack you lose all credibility. You should downvote yourself.
There are already some good rebuttals to your comment here, but I'm going to add another. The entire language of your argument is geared toward the theistic religions. You claim God did nothing to help you overcome your addiction. As an aside I could argue, from the theistic perspective that God did help you overcome your addiction, and you're just not aware of it. But more to the point I can point out how, in the pantheistic model of theology the universe and everything in it is God, and therefore you are God who got a part of themself clean without the help of a concept of God, in order to claim that God doesn't deserve to claim credit for getting them self clean.
Please ignore those arguments in themselves, I'm not trying to debate religion. I pointed that out to highlight that what you positioned as an argument against religion as a whole doesn't even make sense, and is completely irrelevant, to one subset of religions. If you have grievances with the theistic, maybe even more specifically the monotheistic religions, then why not take those grievances up with who they belong?
And also ignoring that atheism is a religion.
And speaking of LGBTQ, I once worked at a summer camp that was run by a Christian church. The pastor and her wife had programs in place for the purpose of protecting and helping LGBTQ youth. Justice and injustice can come from theists and atheists alike.
So, I have been typing out responses to each person. You are the last one, and kind of like you said. I have covered pretty much everything, but I want to leave you with one final thought.
Let’s pretend that I start a business. Let’s say that I call this business “Save The Whales”. Now I start running advertisements and I say that for a small donation every Sunday I will feed the whales. So, people start donating and things are going well. Until, you find out that only 10% of the money you donate actually feeds the whales. The other 90% goes to killing whales.
The point to this is that regardless of what you claim to be. You are what you do. Religion often talks a big game about love, and tolerance, and forgiveness. But then says unless your gay, or black, or whatever. Where as it may not say it in the book. Religion is what its followers do.
When I was 5 my mother kidnapped me and ran to Florida. We were in church every time the doors opened. When I was six she got sick. I had to learn to cook, but we were still going to church. When I was seven she died. I didn’t know this then, but she couldn’t afford her insulin. I watched her die slowly just she and I. Where was god?
When I moved in with my dad. We kept going to church. I started being sexually abused by a neighbor when I was 9. Where was god?
I mean if god deserves credit for my sobriety. When I was old enough to make my own decisions. Then certainly god deserves credit for the things that happened to me as a child when I had no clue right?
Couple of thoughts:
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Atheism is not a religion. Religion is defined by doctrine and rituals, atheism has neither. It is the absence of religion. Some argue that atheism requires faith when compared to agnosticism, which is fair, but it does not make it a religion per se.
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Antitheism typically stands on the ground that religion has been used to justify atrocities. It posits that religion is poisonous due to its effect on people and its ability to control their behavior to do irrational or evil things. Antitheism is not misanthropic in nature, nor is it trying to persecute people for their religion (at least not inherently), it is just the belief that a purely secular would would be more harmonious.
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The idea that a minority group like antitheists have started the beginning stages of a "genocide" against religious people just because they find their beliefs to be harmful is absurd, even at face value. Even atheists hold no institutional power anywhere in the world and antitheistic, hardline anti-religion beliefs tend to be fringe, even among atheists.
tl;dr - Generally disagree about everything
Some argue that atheism requires faith when compared to agnosticism, which is fair, but it does not make it a religion per se.
I agree with most of your points, but I'm not sure I think it's fair.
While atheism/antitheism is obviously a belief, it is not "capital F Faith" in the usual religious sense. You have a "faith" in gravity and that it'll keep doing gravity things, which is based on measurable phenomena. The other kind, "just-have-faith/God works in mysterious ways" faith, is specifically based on the opposite, and is more akin to trust and hope. Trust and hope are great, but it does make the concepts fundamentally different. Equating the two is a very common occurrence that just so happens to either paint atheism/antitheism as a much more "random" belief, or paint theism as much more substantiated than it is, depending on perspective.
I agree that it's more of a semantics game. Religious faith is different from a faith in secular theories and hypotheses. One is based on superstition, while the other on reasonable probability. That said, the answer to the question "why do you believe in anything if knowledge can never be guaranteed" always ends up being some variation of "faith" in my experience, whether the beliefs are secular or religious, but I know there are those who disagree and/or will categorize these things differently based on their choice of language.
Antitheism has plenty of blood on its hands, just like every other religion. Counting human lives only:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireligion
And going beyond human lives, only something like 1-3% of the human population is vegan. That means 97% of people are actively complicit in an egregious atrocity every day, and that is blood on the hands of people of all religions.
Again, antitheism does not have the defining characteristics of religion. And what you're pointing to is state violence, which again, is not an issue today since antitheists do not hold institutional power, are considered a fringe group, and would generally not accept a state-sponsored genocide of religious people. I feel like you are arguing against the ghost of Stalinism.
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Atheism isn't a religion. Full stop. From that one statement you made the rest is safely dismissible.
The best analogy I've heard was along the lines of: Atheism isn't a channel on the TV, it's the off button
Consider it yoinked. I'm going to use that one from now on.
Atheism isn't a religion, but there are definitely forms of antitheism, such as New Atheism, that qualify as pseudoreligions.
That isn't what OP said, however. This is what was said:
If your religion is atheism, that’s perfectly valid.
Atheism is not a religion. It's the idea that there are no gods, and in most cases no religion follows.
Atheism is not getting involved. Your whole thing then is really just pro-theist vs. Antitheist. I would say that even the most diehard anti-theists aren't invading other countries, jailing people, or beheading them for their beliefs.
Teasing religious people for their dick head beliefs, is a response to all the shitty things that have been done and are currently being done in the name of religion.
If you NEED religion to be a good person then you're not a good person. Every single shitty thing happening on the planet right now is directly related to greed, or religion. Yet you still think it's "bigotry" to call that out.
Fuck religion, and fuck a god that would sit and watch all this happen and do nothing. If god is real he's a real piece of shit.
Atheism is not a religion. It’s the idea that there are no gods, and in most cases no religion follows.
The notion that "atheism is a religion" is so comical that I'd love to watch the brain sprain when people who spout that nonsense come across a legit, non-parody, atheistic religion.
So I'm not talking about the Temple of Satan types. Nor the Flying Spaghetti Monster types. Nor the myriad of other spoof religions. I'm talking a serious religion with a long history (it's older than Christianity) that is at the very least agnostic if not flat-out atheistic¹: 儒教 (which you'd know as Confucianism).
So here we have a religion that is either agnostic or atheistic. Kind of hinting that atheism and religion are separate axes.
¹ "You are not yet able to serve men, how can you serve spirits?" was 孔夫子's (Confucius') stance on paying homage to gods.
Atheism is a religion. To argue that it isn’t is an attempt to use language to set it apart from other religions, as if it’s something special or superior. It’s a part of that same kind of supremacy talked about in the first article I posted.
The lack of religion isn't a religion. What is so difficult about this for the religious to grasp?
An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in any gods. Some religions are atheistic. Atheism itself is not a religion.
If you are a theist, that implies specific beliefs following specific patterns. If you are not, you are an atheist. That is the specific, universally accepted definition of that word. Whatever you want it to mean instead, for the purposes of making your point less bad, is not all that interesting to most people.
Calling it bigotry is a stretch.
Religious belief is a voluntary characteristic. Why should that not be considered when judging someone's character?
Are beliefs voluntary? Do you choose to believe that the sky is blue or that you need to drink water to survive? You certainly choose whether you support certain religious institutions and practices or not. But I'm not sure how much I buy the idea that beliefs (or religious ones specifically) are voluntary.
If your religion is atheism
Not a thing, not how it works, and only serves to show your ignorance.
as well as the first of the “10 Stages of Genocide.”
Lets fucking go boys! We can start with the religious extremists funding al jazeera.
I would rather believe in a fairy tale book about a unicorn farting rainbows than the bible, quarn and other bs.
That would be perfectly valid too, as long as you aren't causing harm.
All of the bad things that are absolutely true about aleister Crowley aside, his phrase, "and it harm none, do as you will shall be the whole of the law" has always been useful to me.
I'll sit my happy ass in the corner and say my prayers to my God in secret.
I'll discuss religion with the people that bring it up into conversation and defend my stances on it should it come to it.
I won't shove my religion in your face, I won't make you feel bad for not adhering to my weird set of personal rules, and should I pray on your behalf I will do so without the expectation that you have to join my side in order to receive the benefits.
And, assuming that I follow those rules perfectly, if somebody has a problem with that then I will address that issue but I'm not going to change what I believe or who I am to make you feel comfortable.
There is a difference between criticizing a religion, criticizing all religion, and hating or mocking religious people. The first two are okay, the third is not.
Hating and mocking people who want to kill you seems fine to me.
The OPs whole post is supported/predicated on those links, and what a surprise, would you look at who funds aljazeera!
is a Qatari state-owned[a] Arabic-language international news television network
I wonder what Qatar think about atheists?
religion is just the opposite of science. Science is evidence based beliefs, religion is faith, or rather belief with lack of evidence.
It's just in an awkward phase right now where science has proven itself as correct and religious people warp their beliefs to try and fit it. Liiiike, folks shaving their beards. Science says it's fine, people have shaved plenty of times, with no ill effects. Religion says it's bad, it will anger God. People still call themselves religious while shaving their beards, despite the singular source of their religious belief explicitly saying otherwise. Bible praises the efficacy of prayer to quite an extent, turns out that's a testable hypothesis. How many religious people do you know that would bet money on prayer affecting the outcome of a study? People in developed countries stopped believing we should be stoning homosexuals to death, but the books never changed, all those words are still there, they're just ignored now. Oh but it's still the infallible word of God.
Science is not atheism.
And religion is not the opposite of science.
Science is the formalized study of nature.
The supernatural is the opposite of science.
Gods are by choice or by default supernatural in nature.
Religion itself is the organized practice by which worshipers converge to worship a god or to study and practice the supernatural.
We know religion exists whereas whether or not a God exists of any type whatsoever is up for debate and not scientifically provable.
Didnt mention atheism
Like many labels people choose to self-apply (including but by no means limited to religious ones), "atheist" has a bit of an image problem, since the people who are most eager to self-apply it, and to broadcast that self-application far and wide, tend to be insecure, over-compensating, self-absorbed, obnoxious assholes.
There are a great many generally kind, decent people who identify as "atheists." You just don't generally know that they do, since, being generally kind and decent people, they aren't crashing around like football hooligans, alternately screeching about their own team and atacking the opposing team.
And that's the case with pretty much all labels. The problem is almost never with people who self-apply a particular label, but simply with noxious assholes, regardless of the label. It's generally just our own biases that make it so that we consider the noxious assholes who wear one label to define all who do and the noxious assholes who wear another to be unfortunate exceptions to the rule.
insecure, over-compensating, self-absorbed, obnoxious assholes.
Or so is claimed from the pulpits.
The opinions of Religious people can be discredited immediately. We don't even need to look deeply into their doctrine. They have chosen to throw reason and logic out the window by believing in any god with a lack of any valdid evidence. If they can do this with a life changing, mind altering worldview, then the mundane life decisions don't stand a chance. If you want to prove you make wise choices, start by making wise choices.
I feel like this isn't unpopular, there's just a loud minority of Atheist jerks online.
As opposed the the loud majority of religious nut jobs everywhere.
Atheism is a delusion.
Fuck all you and your dumbass beliefs. I have no problem with atheism. But when you say that religion should be stamped out, or that I cannot think critically because I believe in God, you're a narrow minded fucking idiot.
I have no problem with Santa deniers but when you tell me that adults shouldn't believe in Santa Claus or that I don't think critically because I know he's always watching me from the North Pole and determining whether I've been good or bad, you're a narrow minded fucking idiot.